So although I've already created one idea for a samurai class for my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting. In hindsight, I'm thinking it would better serve to leave samurai as a caste or social class, not a player class. Rather allow for several base classes as archetypes that all represent samurai, chosen by the player of appropriate caste.
Cavalier - would suit well with the traditional mounted archer, emphasis on Japanese weapons and mounted archery.
Fighter - especially those of the Shogun's army, imperial and provincial guards.
Paladin - for the rare good samurai seeking to better society, ancestral connection for divine powers (ojigami).
Anti-Paladin - except I need him to be Lawful Evil, instead of Chaotic Evil.
Ranger - with added combat styles, ki powers instead divine casting, more generalist, than wilderness.
Hatamoto (courtier) - a bard adaption (?) or courtly bureaucrat samurai.
Ancestral Weapon feats allow for the samurai's chosen weapon to level up starting at 1st, 3rd, the every three levels above this (these are bonus feats).
Perform: (tea ceremony) is a required 'centering' skill.
Perform: (calligraphy) is a requierd skill.
Samurai can be both male and female.
Ronin is a status, not a class, loss of honor, intolerance by authorities, distrust by commoners.
Samurai weapons include: daikyu, katana, naginata, wakizashi, yari, yumi as variations of standard PF weapons, though daikyu might be unique.
I need some kind of honor system, granting diplomacy bonuses, and linked to ancestral weapon bonuses.
I think this works better than creating a whole new class just for samurai.
Thoughts?
GP
Is a Blackguard Lawful Evil?
Also, in the Edo period, some Samurai were part time courtiers and Bureaucrats.
Is a Blackguard Lawful Evil?
Also, in the Edo period, some Samurai were part time courtiers and Bureaucrats.
I think Blackguard is lawful evil, but I prefer the build of the Anti-Paladin better, perhaps worth changing a few features, add some samurai-like features, making it Lawful Evil and calling it something else. I've been naming my classes all with Japanese names as in: Fighter (bushi), so I need to find the right Japanese term to fit my idea.
Hatamoto were the soldiers of the shogun, the imperial guard and served in ALL samurai level bureaucratic positions. Hatamoto are samurai, though a different classification than standard samurai. There was ill feelings between hatamoto and purely martial samurai.
In the 47 Ronin, the lord who insulted the ronin's provincial lord, which resulted in his beheading was a hatamoto, and caused the entire incident to occur.
I am very well read on Japanese history, culture, religion, folklore, weapons, since I was very young (I am half Japanese and have been to Japan 3 times.)
GP
I have a friend who is learning Japanese, and he tells me about the Edo period. Basically, Samurai were required to move, with their family, to the capital for a period of time. This was to unify the empire. It also possibly caused incidents like you described. The Samurai either learned another trade, waited for an attack that never came, or completely flipped out. I will e-mail this topic to my friend to see if he has the words you are looking for. He may correct my hazy view of history before you do.
I have a friend who is learning Japanese, and he tells me about the Edo period. Basically, Samurai were required to move, with their family, to the capital for a period of time. This was to unify the empire. It also possibly caused incidents like you described. The Samurai either learned another trade, waited for an attack that never came, or completely flipped out. I will e-mail this topic to my friend to see if he has the words you are looking for. He may correct my hazy view of history before you do.
Thanks.
I've got an expert of my own. Author, Zach Davisson, an American who went to college in Japan. After a 'haunting' experience, he got an MS in Japanese Ghosts. He works as a translator of Japanese texts to English.
Often the samurai and his family were separated one living at home the other in the capital, and each year the family would move from home to the capital see their husbands for a short time, until he left alone back to the home estate. This occurred throughout the Tokugawa Era.
My setting is pre-Tokugawa by roughly 300+ years, even before the Sengoka 'Warring States' period. Although a fantasy setting and not Japan, its culture and technology resembles the Early Shogunate Era 1200-1350. Though I borrow some Tokugawa Era tropes to fill the detail, it is emphasized on an older period - closer to 'Mythic Japan'.
GP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_period
Here's the pertinent excerpt
A code of laws was established to regulate the daimyo houses. The code encompassed private conduct, marriage, dress, types of weapons and numbers of troops allowed; required feudal lords to reside in Edo every other year (the sankin kōtai system); prohibited the construction of ocean-going ships; proscribed Christianity; restricted castles to one per domain (han) and stipulated that bakufu regulations were the national law. Although the daimyo were not taxed per se, they were regularly levied for contributions for military and logistical support and for such public works projects as castles, roads, bridges and palaces. The various regulations and levies not only strengthened the Tokugawa but also depleted the wealth of the daimyo, thus weakening their threat to the central administration. The han, once military-centered domains, became mere local administrative units. The daimyo did have full administrative control over their territory and their complex systems of retainers, bureaucrats and commoners. Loyalty was exacted from religious foundations, already greatly weakened by Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, through a variety of control mechanisms.
Here's what my friend replied,
Hi!
Re- Samurai In Japan the samurai served his clan lord -- the society was feudal in organization with the Emperor at the top. Until the Edo period the Daimyo (clan lord) controlled an area and was the high authority for that area. Anyone in that area who was a samurai (samurai caste) served his lord. The samurai were military & ran the local territory. During the warring states period the various territorys fought over who would be the shogun (or the one who would rule the country in the name of the emperor, giving him time to be the country's spiritual leader without having to involve the court in the more mundane affairs of military, law enforcement, regulation, etc.
The farmers were the caste that supported the whole system.
The clergy (Buddhist & Shinto) were another group.
The merchants & artisans were also there.
The word Samurai means service A samurai is one who serves his clan chief or his lord. The term ronin means a samurai that has left service for --any-- reason & therefore is no longer a samurai as he doesn't serve a master. Such people may take service & their status again becomes samurai.
If you are trying to develop a rpg on the level of Japan you should remember that for the society Japanese has a language of respect as social status & deportment is considered very important.
Hope these thoughts are helpful.
Charles
He also agrees about it being a caste.
Here's what my friend replied,
Hi!
Re- Samurai In Japan the samurai served his clan lord -- the society was feudal in organization with the Emperor at the top. Until the Edo period the Daimyo (clan lord) controlled an area and was the high authority for that area. Anyone in that area who was a samurai (samurai caste) served his lord. The samurai were military & ran the local territory. During the warring states period the various territorys fought over who would be the shogun (or the one who would rule the country in the name of the emperor, giving him time to be the country's spiritual leader without having to involve the court in the more mundane affairs of military, law enforcement, regulation, etc.
The farmers were the caste that supported the whole system.
The clergy (Buddhist & Shinto) were another group.
The merchants & artisans were also there.
The word Samurai means service A samurai is one who serves his clan chief or his lord. The term ronin means a samurai that has left service for --any-- reason & therefore is no longer a samurai as he doesn't serve a master. Such people may take service & their status again becomes samurai.
If you are trying to develop a rpg on the level of Japan you should remember that for the society Japanese has a language of respect as social status & deportment is considered very important.
Hope these thoughts are helpful.
Charles
He also agrees about it being a caste.
Thanks, Charles! All this is known to me already, plus lots more than this. I've been studying Japan all my life (and I sound lots older than you.) I've been to Japan 3 times, I have relatives there. And I have Japan experts - translators, history experts and folklore experts in my 'team'. Plus I have the top industy game designers, editors, illustrators and myself as a industry cartographer to create a very professional team of RPG designer for this project.
If you or your friend is interested they can join the project as a patron to help pay for it and help its development.
Michael "GP" Tumey
My understanding is that the term hatamoto refers more to a daimyo's personal guard, or most trusted retainers. In the Tokugawa clan, they were the warriors responsible for protecting the lord's personal banner (the term meaning "under the banners").
I would think kuge, or one of the related subsets from the Kamakura period would be better served for a bureaucrat class. I'd probably go with Hanke, it's fairly obscure term and is essentially the lowest common denominator within the kuge. The kuge were also patrons of the arts in their prime and later on gatekeepers of protocol and mentors to the samurai caste in their patronage in the arts.
My understanding is that the term hatamoto refers more to a daimyo's personal guard, or most trusted retainers. In the Tokugawa clan, they were the warriors responsible for protecting the lord's personal banner (the term meaning "under the banners").
I would think kuge, or one of the related subsets from the Kamakura period would be better served for a bureaucrat class. I'd probably go with Hanke, it's fairly obscure term and is essentially the lowest common denominator within the kuge. The kuge were also patrons of the arts in their prime and later on gatekeepers of protocol and mentors to the samurai caste in their patronage in the arts.
I had once thought hatamoto included courtiers, so since that isn't the case, I will have to find some other type of samurai to qualify as a courtier In Kaidan the kuge (nobility) represents two things: 1. You are an NPC 2 You are an undead NPC (choose one).
The noble caste is not a player caste in Kaidan.
Will need to find something else that qualifies.
GP
I had once thought hatamoto included courtiers, so since that isn't the case, I will have to find some other type of samurai to qualify as a courtier In Kaidan the kuge (nobility) represents two things: 1. You are an NPC 2 You are an undead NPC (choose one).The noble caste is not a player caste in Kaidan.
Will need to find something else that qualifies.
GP
Like I said, technically the Kuge is a very broad group, too broad to be a caste, though they are often referred to as such for simplicity. There were two groups within the Kuge, the dojo and jige. Typically, whenever the Kuge are referred to as nobility (most of the time) it's talking about the dojo, who were members of the Kuge who were allowed to sit with the emperor, or in other words nobility. The jige were not allowed to sit with the emperor and were "commoners". Jige would be more typical bureaucrats, because for them it was more of a profession.
Here's a shotgun of terms and classifications. The first few are probably way higher than what you're looking for, but in reality most people won't know, or have even heard, of these terms, so you can probably pick the one you like the sound of best.
Sekke - these were families directly descended from Fujiwara no Michinaga, who essentially was the most powerful noble during the Kamakura period. He was father-in-law, father and grandfather to 3 emperors. Only ones who could be Sessho or Kampaku (reagent or chief advisor to the Emperor respectively).
Seigake - relatives of the Fujiwara and Minamoto clans, very powerful and holding the top minister positions. Modern equivalent of cabinet members in the US. Usually daijo-daijin or daijin.
Daijinke - basically VP's, or those directly under the cabinet heads, naidaijin or dainagon.
Urinke - similar to daijinke, but usually more military focused, typically only dainagon.
Meika - top of the commoner ranks, possible to be promoted to positions similar to Daijinke, but not often. Rarely dainagon.
Hanke - were the bottom rung of the professional bureaucrats, kind of a cross between middle-management and actual workers. They could be chunagon (councilor or middle councilor) and sanghi (counselor).
Every other position was institutionalized in the Taiho codes (702) except the sanghi, which came about during the Sengoku period.
Its still a problem. Kaidan is divided into 4 castes - nobility or kuge, samurai, heimen (commoners), and hinin (tainted caste). The caste system is intrinsic to Kaidan, tied to it's cosmology, religion and culture. PCs belong to the lower three castes. Animal caste (yokai) sits outside the caste system, but resides between the commoners and the tainted castes.
I need a bureaucrat of the samurai caste to represent the courtier. If I place the hanke as technically samurai caste, it will work, otherwise I need another solution.
No one in the noble caste (kuge) are player characters - its impossible within the structure of the setting. Its not a Japanese thing so much as the cosmic distribution of reincarnated souls, determined by karma and the Great Wheel of Life.
Need to think this through.
GP
Coming up empty on possible replacements:
Zaichokanjin - or "resident public officials", were provincial elites in the eleventh and twelfth-centuries. They generally had origins as either courtiers who had settled in the provinces, or as descendants of former indigenous elites, and came to dominate local government. As merely provincial powers they lacked autonomy within the shôen system and fell under the jurisdiction of the kokushi (provincial governors), or alternatively could commend their lands to a shoen proprietor.
Houses with zaichôkanjin origins include the Chiba, the Ashikaga, and the Miura. Following the Gempei War, it was zaichôkanjin houses such as these that would adopt the bakufu as their patron rather than the traditional kokushi or shôen proprietors.
While this title seems more related to courtiers, thus to kuge, these elites as described fell under the jurisdiction of provincial daimyo, who could also be considered kuge, however daimyo were the heads of samurai warrior great houses - thus its seems to be that zaichokanjin is a rank below Daimyo would fall under samurai. This is the closest non-kuge courtiers that I can find.
No one in the noble caste (kuge) are player characters - its impossible within the structure of the setting. Its not a Japanese thing so much as the cosmic distribution of reincarnated souls, determined by karma and the Great Wheel of Life.Need to think this through.
GP
The meika and hanke are commoners, not nobles. They are government officials, but they're the lowest ranks of government officials and aren't necessarily family members, but rather professional workers.
Think of going to the DMV, the guy in charge of the whole place is probably a member of the kuge, but the clerk at the counter is a commoner.
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I already noted my approval on the rpg.net thread, but let me echo it here. "Samurai" is the name for a social class, not statement of profession. Many thanks for choosing to go this route
Its like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Cavalier is a social class also, and then you have a cavalier class, trying to fit another culture classes in european classes is priceless, bard?, cavalier?, paladin?, this cannot be done better with proper classes?.
Your call, but I for one dont think that NOT having classes that are designed specifically for a setting is better than having them.
I already noted my approval on the rpg.net thread, but let me echo it here. "Samurai" is the name for a social class, not statement of profession. Many thanks for choosing to go this routeIts like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Cavalier is a social class also, and then you have a cavalier class, trying to fit another culture classes in european classes is priceless, bard?, cavalier?, paladin?, this cannot be done better with proper classes?.
Your call, but I for one dont think that NOT having classes that are designed specifically for a setting is better than having them.
What about the classes presented in the Pathfinder rulebook is 'European'? Sure, the fluff is there, but if you take away the fluff and look solely at the game mechanics, what do you have that is inherently non-Asian? What would creating a separate Samurai class give you that rolling up a fighter or a paladin or a ranger and fluffing it to fit your vision of the character would already give you? It's much easier to throw in a few little house rules to make a class work than designing a whole new class.
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I think one should not get hung up on the name of a thing but rather on what that thing does, when seeing how well it will fit.
Michael, have you considered simply using the expert class for non-combat samurai, either that or aristocrat? Though NPC classes, the expert class, in particular, is very flexible for creating educated, workers in a variety of professions - from academics to smiths.
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What about the classes presented in the Pathfinder rulebook is 'European'? Sure, the fluff is there, but if you take away the fluff and look solely at the game mechanics, what do you have that is inherently non-Asian? What would creating a separate Samurai class give you that rolling up a fighter or a paladin or a ranger and fluffing it to fit your vision of the character would already give you? It's much easier to throw in a few little house rules to make a class work than designing a whole new class.
Its like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Cavalier is a social class also, and then you have a cavalier class, trying to fit another culture classes in european classes is priceless, bard?, cavalier?, paladin?, this cannot be done better with proper classes?.Your call, but I for one dont think that NOT having classes that are designed specifically for a setting is better than having them.
Agreed most heartily. There is NO Need complicate the rules with 3-5 setting based classes especially when it's obvious that it doesn't reflect the reality of the situation as gamer printer expertly pointed out, the very concept of Samurai doesn't fit a single class.
As for other classes in an Oriental setting--
Geisha--Bard or Expert and in the case of some spys and disguised Ninja, Rogue.
Buddhist and Shinto Clergy--Cleric, in fact channel energy works very well to reflect the various types of demon hunters and spiritualists reflected in in various media. Some Oracles could be mystics lying out in the forests and in caves as Japanese Yamabushi or Taoist practioners in China.
Ninja--Clan of of hidden assassins, saboteurs and spies who take on missions on behalf of the Samurai class. They would mostly be Rogues and in some cases Rangers, but individual members might be trained as geisha. In a supernatural setting some clan members may be experts at dealing with spirits or monsters or be wizards who specialize in creating magic items like boots of striding and springing, cool swords and other tools which give Ninja a supernatural reputation. Alternately, they may end up being something more sinister like they were in the L5R setting.
I think one should not get hung up on the name of a thing but rather on what that thing does, when seeing how well it will fit.
Michael, have you considered simply using the expert class for non-combat samurai, either that or aristocrat? Though NPC classes, the expert class, in particular, is very flexible for creating educated, workers in a variety of professions - from academics to smiths.
And a Fighter is a flexible class that can meet many Samurai concepts.
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Also, while Michael mentioned this once already, its good to repeat it in case you missed it. Anyone truly interested in participating in putting this setting together, and especially interested in helping to write the first adventure set in Kaidan should join our project. We have a good start on getting the Patrons we need but we don't have enough yet for a full green light. I know Michael really wants to get his setting book put together and I am looking forward to writing the adventure part of it.
This,when it is green-lit, will be my second project as a developer. My first was Coliseum Morpheuon. As a developer, I promise constant progress updates and frequent inquiries into Patron opinion. Patronage projects allow you to see a book in the process of being written and even to make contributions yourself. Its a great way of fulfilling the dream of being a real, contributing part of our hobby and getting your name in an RPG book.
So if you enjoy this type of discussion at all, please consider getting on the ship to Kaidan. Thank you and we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. ^_^
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Agreed most heartily. There is NO Need complicate the rules with 3-5 setting based classes especially when it's obvious that it doesn't reflect the reality of the situation as gamer printer expertly pointed out, the very concept of Samurai doesn't fit a single class.
Yes, I agree about fighters being quite flexible as well in fitting many possible roles (ditto for Rogue).
From a design perspective, the important thing is not what they are called, but what they do. And from a design perspective, new classes and rules should only be made if they can actually add something besides fluff. I am not sure why a Yakuza class, for instance, would require being different than a Rogue class, when it might be just as easy (or easier) to simply create a few new rogue talent options.
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If you really want to play a Japanese flavored campaign, I'd really recommend that you consider Legends of the Five Rings. It's built ground up for this sort of play and works a lot better than trying to retrofit a game system based almost entirely on Western paradigms.
We're not just playing a game though, we are writing one. And Pathfinder is OGL. :D
Kaidan is a unique setting all of its own. One might think of it as a Historical Japan-Ravenloft sort of setting. Only you don't necessarily have to travel out of the world to reach the ghost-haunted island.
The Samurai were fighters with a special code of honor to the royalty.
There were other classes with a similar code to the royals.
Ninja who failed their particular warlord might commit ritual suicide.
Other Ninjas were ronin, or masterless.
I'm just saying the system could work.
I'm still searching for the movie this thread is named after.
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There are at least two movies where the english title is Kaidan, or similar.
Kwaidan is the older of the two, and the one I probably like better. Its actually an anthology.
Kaidan is newer and has one main plot from beginning to end: The intersection of two cursed families and the plot of a dead woman to claim her love.
The thread however is not named after the movies. Rather the setting is named after the Japanese word for "Ghost Story."
Wow...you ask for advice/opinions and then tell people you know more than them...good luck with your project...Thanks, Charles! All this is known to me already, plus lots more than this. I've been studying Japan all my life (and I sound lots older than you.) I've been to Japan 3 times, I have relatives there. And I have Japan experts - translators, history experts and folklore experts in my 'team'. Plus I have the top industy game designers, editors, illustrators and myself as a industry cartographer to create a very professional team of RPG designer for this project.
If you or your...
Oh, sorry, I was looking for advice/opinions regarding how this best applies to use in 3x/Pathfinder RPG. Japanese folklore, mythology, religion, history and culture is something I've been studying for many years - I've got that part covered. Now your experiences in other Japan settings, class ideas, feats, expectations as a gamer and fan of such settings is really what I am looking for. And why I posted here.
Kaidan means "ghost or horror story" as relating to old tales of feudal Japan. It was even a ghost story telling game in the 16th century called 'Monogatari Kaidankai' which translates to a Gathering of 100 Ghostly Stories, played by aristocratic warriors, and eventually spread throughout Japan. The idea that it was a Japanese ghost story telling game makes it especially appropriate for a roleplaying game.
Lafcadio Hearn's original Kwaidan: a study of strange discussions published in 1902 was indeed inspiration, having read it when I was 15, just prior to my second visit to Japan - I have always loved Japanese ghost and folklore stories. However, I have never been satisfied with D&D oriental settings, and thought that my background and lifetime gaming experience I could bring something better to the table. This is my attempt.
GP
PS: I have L5R 2e, and have played that game. L5R is mostly a samurai based game, and while certainly interesting and fun, much of Japan's mystique is among the lower classes as well, which L5R does not capture so well, which is emphasized in Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting.
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Perform: (tea ceremony) is a required 'centering' skill.
Perform: (calligraphy) is a requierd skill.
I was just thinking about Perform (tea ceremony) and so came across this thread. Very interesting!
I'm wondering if it would be possible to create a bard who uses perform (tea ceremony) to create spell like effects, much like an alchemist. Any thoughts?
Wouldn't calligraphy go under linguistics or be a craft skill?