| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
One of my players, an 11th level bard, recently stumbled across an interesting combination of abilities. As a move action, he uses his bardic music to create a Dirge of Doom effect, then follows with a single standard action to intimidate any creature that can see and hear him within 30 feet. As a bard, his intimidate is spectacular, virtually guaranteeing success, and ending with a creature that's frightened. My question is, are we playing this properly, allowing the two fear effects to stack? Dirge of Doom states that it can't cause a creature to become frightened, so my player's line of thinking was that the Dirge made him shakened, and the intimidate made him frightened. Is that right? Or does that particular clause of a fear effect mean that that fear effect doesn't stack with any others?
Thanks in advance if you have an idea. :)
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It's fun for a bard to demoralize opponents with Dazzling Display and such. The skill description doesn't actually say anything about not stacking with other fear effects, so perhaps Carbon is wrong. Or perhaps he knows something I don't.
I'm not sure whether I'd allow that or not. The bard ability doesn't say 'doesn't stack' it says 'cannot make someone frightened'.
Yeah, I'd probably allow it to happen. Makes fear more effective, especially for PC's.
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Intimidate (The skill) to demoralize does not stack with other fear effects and therefore wouldn't function in such a manner.
Where is this rule, please?
Is that right? Or does that particular clause of a fear effect mean that that fear effect doesn't stack with any others?
Yes, you're playing it right. Dirge of doom won't increase the level of fear, but Intimidate (demoralize) will.
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Where is this rule, please?
Right here
Intimidate as a fear effect has an overlapping effect, not a stacking one.
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Its kind of sad when that post existed on Oct 9, 2009. And it couldn't make into any of the erratas since then.
Yeeep. I think this is one of those things that just keeps falling in between the cracks unless the thinking has turned around significantly since then. Which would beg the question why hasn't there been something contradicting THIS ruling since then if that is the case. I think this is a good question for the FAQ whenever they get the downtime to mull through it.
Great link; thanks for the info, guys. :)
Followup question. In another game I've been thinking about making barbarian that uses Dazzling Display and Intimidating Glare. According to what was just linked, these would not stack to create a frightened effect, correct?
Where is this rule, please?
Right here
Intimidate as a fear effect has an overlapping effect, not a stacking one.
There are two things wrong with this.
One, this was a pathfinder society ruling. Joshua was VERY explicit in saying that PFS rulings were not to be considered Pathfinder rulings. They're valid only for Society play.
Two, this particular ruling is talking only about using Intimidate more than once. It says nothing about combining Intimidate with other fear effects.
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While those are both valid points, they are the only thing we have to run on for now. I think I remember seeing something else about this recently but the search function on these messageboards isn't exactly intelligent. I still say there should be a search field that includes only threads in which piazo employees contributed to.
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In general, fear effects stack; this is true of effects that don't come from the same source. There is a bit of gamesmanship in the idea that, while dirge of doom doesn't stack with other fear, other things can stack with dirge of doom. In the general case, it is a bit of gamesmanship with a long history, though. So, kudos for the player's creativity.
As for Josh's ruling from 2009, I'm not willing to track down the forum based rulings of the various administrators and developers. I appreciate the work that's been done by d20pfsrd group to organize this chaotic mess, but the ultimate solution is for Paizo to clean up their house on the matter. Until that happens, I'll take it as opinion that may be formalized further.
As for Josh's ruling being PFS only: my understanding is that the official line is that PFS follows the standard rules.
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As to OP's question: it works by the RAW. It doesn't work by the 2009 opinion of an administrator who no longer is employed by the company. It may not work if your group's style of gaming rejects this type of gamesmanship. Edit: It will work if your group's style of gaming values this type of creativity.
As to OP's question: it works by the RAW. It doesn't work by the 2009 opinion of an administrator who no longer is employed by the company. It may not work if your group's style of gaming rejects this type of gamesmanship. Edit: It will work if your group's style of gaming values this type of creativity.
Alright, thanks a bunch. :)
to answer: there is a FAQ on this not stacking.
Link? I've seen a dev post, but never anything official like an FAQ. It's a recurring issue, that should probably make its way into errata.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Demoralize does not stack with itself to upgrade the Shaken condition to Frightened - that is clear and uncontroversial.
But by RAW, someone who is Shaken from demoralize and is then given the Shaken condition from another effect, like the Cause Fear spell, will become Frightened. Now, there is a many-years-old dev comment that states that the Shaken that comes from Demoralize does not stack with any other Shaken condition to upgrade to Frightened, but this is nowhere in the rules, and has been causing confusion for years now.
Honestly, it's time for it to either get FAQed, or errataed into the Intimidate skill. Because by RAW a combo such as Demoralize + Cause Fear will result in the Frightened condition.