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I am wanting to run a Kingmaker campaign that I extend out with a bunch of player story focused side missions etc to last a lot longer.
I am wanting a game however where magic items are rare, but generally more powerful. I am tired of the game where every captain of the town watch has a +1 sword and half the NPCs are literally bristling with magic items. I want a game where magic items are rare. the sort of item that is cherished in the family and passed down from father to son etc. I am tired of having the PCs just head down to ye old magic corner store and rattle off a wish list.
I was thiking of still having magic stores but their selection is very limited and prices are at least doubled probably tripled. They make a profit by buying items at the regular game system list price and might then hold onto the item for years before finding the right buyer who is willing to pay the right price.
Getting rid of basic +1 items etc most items are multi purposed. eg won't find a +1 sword...ever; but might after lots of searching and rumours etc find a '+1 frost sword with resist cold/5 and wall of ice 1/week' You know...the sort of thing that is talked about in legend and becomes a family legacy item.
Also looking at dramatically altering the way items are identified. Probably doubling DCs and even then it will only give hints as to one of the items ailities. Most stuff is discovered through roleplay.
What problems can you see arising with the game system in general from adopting this approach?
Can you suggest any changes with the city building system that might need to change?
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Low magic item games widen the gap between spellcaster and non-spellcaster. If your only going to limit magic items rather than just magic itself expect spellcasters to overshadow any martial classes (more than usual I mean).
In terms of the city building system, have the buildings simply produce an appropiate amount of BP rather than generating items...
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I am wanting to run a Kingmaker campaign that I extend out with a bunch of player story focused side missions etc to last a lot longer.
Cool, you can probably just give the PCs less xp for exploration/story rewards and you won't have to adjust the written adventures.
I am tired of the game where every captain of the town watch has a +1 sword...
I don't really remember seeing this happen much in Kingmaker, so you should be okay.
To be honest, I've rarely seen this happen in a Paizo adventure. Even in the high-level modules (maybe there are exceptions but usually it doesn't happen).
I was thinking of still having magic stores but their selection is very limited
That's how Pathfinder works. If your PCs want bespoke magic items they have to create them, or commission them. Pathfinder gives guidelines on magic items for each community and they are fairly limited.
I would recommend that you just start off using the rules fully and keeping your town guards low-level unless they're town guards in an exotic high-magic location (such as the City of Brass).
The only change you might make would be to limit the number of magic shops PCs can add to their cities.
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Allright the town guard thing was just an example of how it seems like every tom dick and harry has a magic item....the town guards are not the problem. If Paizo gives the town guard a magic item that I see no need for I'll just remove it myself. It was more a case of I want magic items to be something special not just another piece of equipment to be listed on a character sheet.
When a player gets a magic item it should be regarded with awe....Just like in every fantasy novel you read. Magic items I believe have lost their wow factor and have become just aother piece of equipment to min max with.
I have no problem tweaking NPCs up or down to provide a challenge for the players so that is not a concern. I was more concerned about stuff like the the comment about magic users becoming too powerful compared to the other clasess etc. Which I don't see being too much of a problem. A. there is currently no dedicated caster in the party (a druid and an oracle multi classer.) and B. I see the magic users being nerfed almost as much as other classes if they no longer have a bunch of stat/save boosting items just like all the other PCs plus the fact they will be limited with wands etc.
Anything else anyone can think of that might crop up as a spanner in my works? Or can anyone think of ways to enhance the whole idea? Would love to hear peoples thoughts and hopefully come up with a counter/fix for any problems I have not forseen.
Maybe there is someone out there who has done this sort of thing previously.
Anything else anyone can think of that might crop up as a spanner in my works? Or can anyone think of ways to enhance the whole idea? Would love to hear peoples thoughts and hopefully come up with a counter/fix for any problems I have not forseen.Maybe there is someone out there who has done this sort of thing previously.
The items that are going to be issues:
+ to stats
+ to saving throws
+ to hit/damage weapons
+ to AC
Your basic stat items, cloaks of resistance, magic weapons, magic armor and defense boosters are the items that tend to show up as 'must haves' and peppered around everywhere.
Taking away stat boosters and cloaks of resistance make it easier for monsters to save vs spells, and harder for your pcs to save. It also drops party HP across the board from no +con items, drops AC and combat power of the melee due to the lack of +dex and +str. Consider giving additional stat/save bonuses on level up. A few extra '+1 to all saves or +1 to 2 stats' peppered through the leveling tree might work.
+to hit/damage weapons: stay away from DR/Magic early and give full and 3/4 BAB classes +1 to hit/damage every 4 levels.
+ to AC: give full and 3/4 BAB classes +1 dodge every 4 levels.
The biggest sapnner in the works, especially in Kingmaker, where time is not an issue, is that your casters will take crafting feats. You'll need to declare them off-limits.
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The result will be that the martial classes will lag behind - both behind other casters and monsters, because every CR is established with fighting a WBL magic item equipped party in mind.
By going low-magic, you:
a) shaft the martial classes big time,
b) break down several balance aspects of the game.
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It was more a case of I want magic items to be something special not just another piece of equipment to be listed on a character sheet.
If you want magic items to be rare but awesome then you can easily make them just that.
You might want to add a bit more masterwork stuff in treasure at the start but after that.
The items found are multi-functional bundles of awesome. Your players get all of the benefits the CR system expects of them in one item.
i.e. your fighter gets a sword which is a +2 flaming, cold iron bastard sword that also gives +2 strength, +2 to all saves, +10' to movement and can be triggered to heal 2d8+4 hit points once/day.
Thus magic gear is super-awesome but does the job.
Your rogue gets a fine silver necklace, it gives +2 to all saves, casts invisibility once/day, gives +4 to dex, adds 1d6 cold damage to every attack and gives +4 to natural armour.
etc. etc.
Rare but awesome.
I'd also go with giving them individual names and elaborate, evocative descriptions.
You can also go down a legacy weapon route, when your player does something awesome (and is nearing a level where they need more stat boost/damage/whatever) the magic item responds and become more powerful.
i.e. slay a lich with the sword, suddenly it gives +4 con. Ride a dragon with the necklace and suddenly it gives improved invisibility instead, cross the lake of fire with that staff and now it casts empowered fireballs...
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The biggest sapnner in the works, especially in Kingmaker, where time is not an issue, is that your casters will take crafting feats. You'll need to declare them off-limits.
Was looking at making some off limits and others like potions, scrolls etc, increase in xp, gp and time
the whole bonuse to stats saves etc I'm not too worried about. My guys have been gaming for 20+years so they tend to overpower most standard encounters just by pure knowledge and pre planning. If anything I think that will even things up for the bad guys somewhat.
I do plan on giving them some magic items and the fewer magic item that they have will have more powers than a standard "magic sword" etc.
I think the idea is to give them magic items that do more than give a simple bonus and make them think of unique ways to get benefits out of them. Also to take away the shopping list mentality of magic items. Magic items are rare and they are not always going to get what they are after but will instead have to make do with what they can source.
Anyone have any good ideas on magic item identification? I like the idea of it taking a while and a lot of study in order to get a general idea of what the item does as opposed to a simple roll skill / cast a spell and you instantly know all.
Well if you are looking to remove physical items and maintain balance there were some great ideas in a thread a ways back. It had lots of ideas for replacing the 'big six' items with internal abilities. Then magic items can be as rare and flavorful as you want without upsetting the balance in terms of hitting, AC, saves etc.
My favorite is this one heroic distinctions
If you dont and still make items rare, i think it becomes very problematic past level 8 or so. I have been in campaigns where the DM has aimed at low magic items and it meant eventually taking on level appropriate CR monsters was very very difficult. It becomes hard to hit, and hard to save for the players and easy to hit and easy to save for monsters. Not to mention NPC enemies become pretty impotent without some magic gear of their own.
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The result will be that the martial classes will lag behind - both behind other casters and monsters, because every CR is established with fighting a WBL magic item equipped party in mind.
By going low-magic, you:
a) shaft the martial classes big time,
b) break down several balance aspects of the game.
Pretty much, +1. And expect to see the look of jealousy on everyones face when the clerics toting around +2/+3 weapons and armour all day long due to magic vestment etc. strut their stuff.
Low magic item games don't work, if you want to go low magic go the whole hog and limit magic too OR provide inherent bonuses to compensate.
Not having access to decent equipment hurts the non-spellcasters from as early as level 2 and the problem only gets worse over time.
Kingmaker is actually very good at not dishing out too many random +1 items (except in some side quests and the guards in chapter 5). Only very powerful individals have decent magic weapons, and many of them are plot critical and have a nice backstory or features.
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So far I am liking GeraintElberions advice.
having a fewer but more awesome items. Was also thinking of having each player have some sort of legacy item that will increase in abiity over time. A sort of family heirloom that has been handed to their character.
Not worried about spell casters being overpowered. I have only 2 spellcasters in the group and both are far more interested in character development than they are at being munchins. One is a druid and the other is an oracle/sorcerer.
I was also hoping to focus a lot of time in this campaign to roleplaying rather than combat.