Daring Dodo wrote: Yeah it appears to be a left over from 3.5 then. I can't find many of the definitions from that table in the books I have, though they match up with the d20srd almost exactly.
So they would apply to attribute checks. Shenanigans. Thank you.
Yeah, d20pfsrd.com is a third-party site that's good at aggregating resources, but has a tendency to be a little loose with the rules: I've seen them rewrite abilities to favor a given interpretation of how they work, chop up a sentence into half a dozen pieces and reassemble the pieces in a different order to produce two different sentences so that they could label pieces of the text as "flavor text" even though they were originally printed all mixed-in with the rest of it, and I've even seen them write entire paragraphs of "rules" out of their own heads and then present it as being part of the CRB.
Use d20pfsrd.com to find cool stuff and see what book it's in. Don't use d20pfsrd.com to look up rules.
What about a skald using Lesser Spirit Totem? I assume not, because the spirits are attacking using the Skald's BAB and Cha mod, but the spirits are not the wearer of the circlet.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Jiggy wrote: Daring Dodo wrote: Yeah it appears to be a left over from 3.5 then. I can't find many of the definitions from that table in the books I have, though they match up with the d20srd almost exactly.
So they would apply to attribute checks. Shenanigans. Thank you.
Yeah, d20pfsrd.com is a third-party site that's good at aggregating resources, but has a tendency to be a little loose with the rules: I've seen them rewrite abilities to favor a given interpretation of how they work, chop up a sentence into half a dozen pieces and reassemble the pieces in a different order to produce two different sentences so that they could label pieces of the text as "flavor text" even though they were originally printed all mixed-in with the rest of it, and I've even seen them write entire paragraphs of "rules" out of their own heads and then present it as being part of the CRB.
Use d20pfsrd.com to find cool stuff and see what book it's in. Don't use d20pfsrd.com to look up rules. i've seen this once, and it was due to poor formatting in the book, and was actually word for word written correctly.
Bandw2 wrote: Jiggy wrote: Daring Dodo wrote: Yeah it appears to be a left over from 3.5 then. I can't find many of the definitions from that table in the books I have, though they match up with the d20srd almost exactly.
So they would apply to attribute checks. Shenanigans. Thank you.
Yeah, d20pfsrd.com is a third-party site that's good at aggregating resources, but has a tendency to be a little loose with the rules: I've seen them rewrite abilities to favor a given interpretation of how they work, chop up a sentence into half a dozen pieces and reassemble the pieces in a different order to produce two different sentences so that they could label pieces of the text as "flavor text" even though they were originally printed all mixed-in with the rest of it, and I've even seen them write entire paragraphs of "rules" out of their own heads and then present it as being part of the CRB.
Use d20pfsrd.com to find cool stuff and see what book it's in. Don't use d20pfsrd.com to look up rules. i've seen this once, and it was due to poor formatting in the book, and was actually word for word written correctly. I'm sure that happens too but, well, my examples were not hypothetical. :/
But anyway, still a useful site for other purposes than referencing rules. :)
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Jiggy wrote: Bandw2 wrote: Jiggy wrote: Daring Dodo wrote: Yeah it appears to be a left over from 3.5 then. I can't find many of the definitions from that table in the books I have, though they match up with the d20srd almost exactly.
So they would apply to attribute checks. Shenanigans. Thank you.
Yeah, d20pfsrd.com is a third-party site that's good at aggregating resources, but has a tendency to be a little loose with the rules: I've seen them rewrite abilities to favor a given interpretation of how they work, chop up a sentence into half a dozen pieces and reassemble the pieces in a different order to produce two different sentences so that they could label pieces of the text as "flavor text" even though they were originally printed all mixed-in with the rest of it, and I've even seen them write entire paragraphs of "rules" out of their own heads and then present it as being part of the CRB.
Use d20pfsrd.com to find cool stuff and see what book it's in. Don't use d20pfsrd.com to look up rules. i've seen this once, and it was due to poor formatting in the book, and was actually word for word written correctly. I'm sure that happens too but, well, my examples were not hypothetical. :/
But anyway, still a useful site for other purposes than referencing rules. :) then they probably have been fixed since then.
I find the SRD a more useful site for checking rules because the actually link to things like FAQ's and developer clarification which the PRD doesn't.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rory wrote:
Does my oracle get the circlet's +3 to hit for Spiritual Weapon?
No, because even for Oracles, Spiritual Weapon's attack roll remains Wisdom based.
LazarX wrote: Rory wrote:
Does my oracle get the circlet's +3 to hit for Spiritual Weapon?
No, because even for Oracles, Spiritual Weapon's attack roll remains Wisdom based. Per John Compton of PFS, Oracles who gain Spiritual Weapon as a bonus spell from their mystery use CHA instead of WIS. This is the official PFS ruling. There is definitely a case where an oracle uses CHA for Spiritual Weapon.
So... given that an ancestors mystery oracle does use CHA for Spiritual Weapon...
Does my (ancestors mystery) oracle get the circlet's +3 to hit for Spiritual Weapon?
Rory wrote: Per John Compton of PFS, Oracles who gain Spiritual Weapon as a bonus spell from their mystery use CHA instead of WIS. This is the official PFS ruling. There is definitely a case where an oracle uses CHA for Spiritual Weapon.
So... given that an ancestors mystery oracle does use CHA for Spiritual Weapon...
Does my (ancestors mystery) oracle get the circlet's +3 to hit for Spiritual Weapon?
Can you link to this ruling? I have seen a FAQ that suggested it might be a good idea but nothing specifically saying that this was a PFS legal option.
andreww wrote: Can you link to this ruling? I have seen a FAQ that suggested it might be a good idea but nothing specifically saying that this was a PFS legal option. Sure thing...
John Compton Speaks
This question is one I’ve considered for some time, and following my discussions with Mike Brock and Sean K Reynolds about a FAQ post earlier this year, I’ve made a decision. A character who receives spiritual weapon and/or spiritual ally as a bonus spell (such as an oracle mystery spell or witch patron spell) may use her primary spellcasting ability score in place of her Wisdom score when calculating the spell’s attack bonus. In this way a select set of characters that would otherwise have no choice but to learn the spell (e.g. spirits patron witches, ancestors mystery oracles, and sacred servant paladins with the war domain) can still make effective use of a character feature.
This ruling only applies to the two spells mentioned above and does not modify any other spells that may have similar circumstances. This ruling does not alter how the above spells function for characters who do not receive those spells as bonus spells.
This is a clarification that we are using for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We plan on updating this in future update of the Pathfinder Society FAQ.
Rory wrote: Sure thing...
John Compton Speaks
Aah, it only applies to bonus spells, that is a bit disappointing.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rory wrote: LazarX wrote: Rory wrote:
Does my oracle get the circlet's +3 to hit for Spiritual Weapon?
No, because even for Oracles, Spiritual Weapon's attack roll remains Wisdom based. Per John Compton of PFS, Oracles who gain Spiritual Weapon as a bonus spell from their mystery use CHA instead of WIS. This is the official PFS ruling. There is definitely a case where an oracle uses CHA for Spiritual Weapon.
So... given that an ancestors mystery oracle does use CHA for Spiritual Weapon...
Does my (ancestors mystery) oracle get the circlet's +3 to hit for Spiritual Weapon? I would rule no, since by the name of the item, it is clearly a device used for aiding in social skills. This means UMD checks are also not modified by it either.
Dude, it CLEARLY applies to UMD checks as per the rules description text of the item. You don't adjudicate an items effect by using the NAME of the item.
The grey area, for some, is whether it applies to CHA aided attacks. I would say no, since an attack roll isn't a check.
_Ozy_ wrote: Dude, it CLEARLY applies to UMD checks as per the rules description text of the item. You don't adjudicate an items effect by using the NAME of the item.
The grey area, for some, is whether it applies to CHA aided attacks. I would say no, since an attack roll isn't a check.
Lazar X is routinely wrong on the rules.
It does apply to charisma based checks, it doesn't apply where you are just adding Charisma to a different stat. So if your attack roll is BaB+Charisma rather than dex/str then it should apply. Similarly it would apply to the Charisma based checks in things like Black Tentacles and Telekinesis.
A check is any d20 roll with a modifier as per the glossary. It even calls out attack rolls as a common type of check.
My goodness, you appear to be correct:
Quote: Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws. This is a killer item for someone with CHA-based saves.
_Ozy_ wrote: My goodness, you appear to be correct:
Quote: Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws. This is a killer item for someone with CHA-based saves.
They have to be actually Charisma based rather than simply adding Charisma to the normal stat. It works for Lore and Lunar Oracles and for people using Steadfast Personality and Irrepressible. It doesn't work for Paladins.
All of this has come up before in various forms. The general consensus seems to be is that RAI it is skill checks, and for the other abilities, the price should be higher than it is.
Probably needs a FAQ.
Yeah, I would certainly house-rule limit it to skill checks until a FAQ was offered.
I don't have them on hand, but there are dev quotes supporting the RAI of it applying to the appropriate concentration checks at the very least.
Stompy Rex wrote: All of this has come up before in various forms. The general consensus seems to be is that RAI it is skill checks, and for the other abilities, the price should be higher than it is.
Probably needs a FAQ.
You wouldn't even count ability checks?
It doesn't get more charisma based than a charisma check.
FYI, as posted in this thread, the item is from 3.5 and there it applied to a whole bunch of things, including cleric Turning. Making any assertions about RAI when the rules as intended were intended for 3.5 but were copy-pasted over to Pathfinder with little to no change is just silly.
Stompy Rex wrote: All of this has come up before in various forms. The general consensus seems to be is that RAI it is skill checks, and for the other abilities, the price should be higher than it is.
Probably needs a FAQ.
Of course this has come up before. This very thread is almost 5 years old.
Stompy Rex wrote: The general consensus seems to be is that RAI it is skill checks lol
andreww wrote: Rory wrote: Sure thing...
John Compton Speaks
Aah, it only applies to bonus spells, that is a bit disappointing. Yes, it is (or was, now).
They have opened the door (arguably) to all oracles, using My. Compton's ruling and subsequent material published.
- Oracle (any mystery)
- Archetype: Spirit Guide (from Advanced Class Guide)
- Shaman Spirit: Ancestors (from Player Companion: Cohorts and Companions)
This allows any oracle to get Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally thru bonus spells.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Jiggy wrote: Stompy Rex wrote: The general consensus seems to be is that RAI it is skill checks lol my thoughts exactly.
Time to quote Pathfinder Core:
Quote: Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws. So under Pathfinder rules, anything that uses a 1d20 roll with an ability score as a modifier is considered a [score]-based check. Anything that uses an ability score as a bonus is not considered a cha-based check. So a smite evil or divine grace does not benefit from a Circlet of Persuasion.
So Rory, Toppling Spell gets a +3 from Circlet of Persuasion on an Oracle. As for Spiritual Weapon, my first inclination would be to say that it would not benefit from a Circlet of Persuasion because even though it is a cha-based attack check under PF, the weapon attacks on its own and is considered separate from the Oracle, and therefore it does not benefit from the Oracle's gear. But there is a FAQ on this issue which indicates that a Spiritual Weapon should benefit from all the bonuses as a regular wielded weapon, so Circlet of Persuasion would work fine.
Jiggy wrote: Daring Dodo wrote: Yeah it appears to be a left over from 3.5 then. I can't find many of the definitions from that table in the books I have, though they match up with the d20srd almost exactly.
So they would apply to attribute checks. Shenanigans. Thank you.
Yeah, d20pfsrd.com is a third-party site that's good at aggregating resources, but has a tendency to be a little loose with the rules: I've seen them rewrite abilities to favor a given interpretation of how they work, chop up a sentence into half a dozen pieces and reassemble the pieces in a different order to produce two different sentences so that they could label pieces of the text as "flavor text" even though they were originally printed all mixed-in with the rest of it, and I've even seen them write entire paragraphs of "rules" out of their own heads and then present it as being part of the CRB.
Use d20pfsrd.com to find cool stuff and see what book it's in. Don't use d20pfsrd.com to look up rules. Honestly I just ban d20pfsrd.com outright because of their aggravating tendency to rewrite stuff to suit their own interpretations and otherwise make adjustments for copyright (by filing off important restrictions) or porting or whatever. It's not just their rules text that suffers from this problem. I recommend that people use Archives of Nethys instead. But if possible paizo.com/prd/ is preferred because that's more often on the latest errata. The ACG entry on the PRD is also behind the errata, however.
LazarX wrote: I would rule no, since by the name of the item, it is clearly a device used for aiding in social skills. This means UMD checks are also not modified by it either. You are certainly free to houserule however you please in your home games, but on the rules forum we stick with rules text when we explain what the rules actually do.
Stompy Rex wrote: All of this has come up before in various forms. The general consensus seems to be is that RAI it is skill checks, and for the other abilities, the price should be higher than it is.
Probably needs a FAQ.
Nope. FAQ isn't needed since the rules text is extremely clear. In PF, "a check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws." It's just that back in 3.5 it didn't work this way, to quote StreamOfTheSky on page 2, a check is "a method of determining the result when a character attempts an action (other than an attack or a saving throw) that has a chance of failure. Checks are based on a relevant character ability, skill, or other characteristic. Most checks are either ability checks or skill checks, though special types such as turning checks, caster level checks, dispel checks, and initiative checks also exist. The specific name of the check usually corresponds to the skill or ability used. To make a check, roll 1d20 and add any relevant modifiers. (Higher results are always better.) If this check result equals or exceeds the Difficulty Class number assigned by the DM (or the opponent's check, if the action is opposed), the check succeeds."
So, going with the Core Rulebook definition of "check" and the FAQ definition of "based," here's a random list of things it looks like the Circlet of Persuasion bonus would add to:
Anything important I left off of the list?
Works with the new Steadfast Personality feat as well.
andreww wrote: Works with the new Steadfast Personality feat as well. Hmm, then it would work on all of a paladins saves, since those get Cha added as well.
Personally, I think a will save is a wisdom based roll, even if you add another score to it instead/additionally.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Fergie wrote: andreww wrote: Works with the new Steadfast Personality feat as well. Hmm, then it would work on all of a paladins saves, since those get Cha added as well.
Personally, I think a will save is a wisdom based roll, even if you add another score to it instead/additionally. It's the instead vs additionally that makes a difference. If you replace Wisdom with Charisma, it's no longer a Wisdom based check, it's a Charisma based check. If it's a Wisdom based check that receives a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier (like Divine Grace), it's still a Wisdom based check.
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