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RD likes his games official. He has as long as I've seen him posting, going all the way back to d20 modern before Gleemax.And? So then he should have no complaint. Barbarians lost their rage powers if they took a lawful alignment "before gleemax" existed. Paizo said they goofed. So, he's only been allowed to "officially" play a raging lawful barbarian monk for a very short time.
Sounds like he either needs to a) get over it and make a houserule, or b) not complain about something that was pretty obviously a mistake in the first place and was fairly quickly resolved.
I've known lots of people like this though, not just in D&D/PF. Scrabble is my favorite example, but it's also true of just about any board game. Officialness makes the arguments shorter, more time to play. I can see the benefit of that point of view, even if it's not how I run.
And as amusing as this has been, it does nothing to refute my point that mechanics and fluff are not inextricably tied together. At all.See ya can still tell then:)
Actually, I think liquid nitrogen would be an alchemical effect. I forget what knowledge skill that falls under.
except it proves ya can tell, ya simply can not hide it without changing the rules.
Did you miss my post, sir? HAN ALWAYS SHOOTS FIRST. Chaotic evil all the way ;)Oh, and Batman is Chaotic Good and Jack Bauer is Lawful Good and James Bond is Lawful Evil.You forgot Han Solo . . . ;)OOOH! I did! And since my post didn't rile up enough folks...
Han Solo is Chaotic Neutral.
Point of order, saying that Han Shot First implies that Greedo shot second. Han Shot. End of story. :)
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I am a divine caster in metal full plate from head to toe. I ride atop a wolf and keep my visor down over my face. I have been seen to cast divine spells on many occasions, and frequently provide healing to those in need. They call me a cleric and praise Erastil. Are they wrong?With the correct rolls other clerics would know if your what you claim to be yes.
What correct rolls. Thats an evasive answer. I agree, they can tell im casting divine spells, on top of a wolf no less. They can tell i'm not a Druid as i'm wearing metal.
People call me a cleric, but I could be a nature oracle with the lame curse with the heavy armour proficiency feat. Or I could be a cleric with the heavy armour proficiency feat and the animal domain. Please explain how people would look at me and nod sagely 'ah yes, hes a cleric'. And bearing in mind 95%+ of Golarion are peasants who won't make the distinction between a cleric or oracle most of the time even in less obvious cases.
Edit: I AM hiding which class he is without changing the rules.
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except it proves ya can tell, ya simply can not hide it without changing the rules.And as amusing as this has been, it does nothing to refute my point that mechanics and fluff are not inextricably tied together. At all.See ya can still tell then:)
Actually, I think liquid nitrogen would be an alchemical effect. I forget what knowledge skill that falls under.
Which...has nothing to do with what I am saying...
I've known lots of people like this though, not just in D&D/PF. Scrabble is my favorite example, but it's also true of just about any board game. Officialness makes the arguments shorter, more time to play. I can see the benefit of that point of view, even if it's not how I run.RD likes his games official. He has as long as I've seen him posting, going all the way back to d20 modern before Gleemax.And? So then he should have no complaint. Barbarians lost their rage powers if they took a lawful alignment "before gleemax" existed. Paizo said they goofed. So, he's only been allowed to "officially" play a raging lawful barbarian monk for a very short time.
Sounds like he either needs to a) get over it and make a houserule, or b) not complain about something that was pretty obviously a mistake in the first place and was fairly quickly resolved.
Only if people have memorized the rules, and fully agree on how they are interpreted. Otherwise, in my experience, they become interminably longer, as people scramble to look it up, sometimes find slightly contradictory or misleading citations, and proceed to argue about how it is interpreted. Just look at the rules arguments on these boards that have nothing to do with houserules, just the RAW!
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Only if people have memorized the rules, and fully agree on how they are interpreted. Otherwise, in my experience, they become interminably longer, as people scramble to look it up, sometimes find slightly contradictory or misleading citations, and proceed to argue about how it is interpreted. Just look at the rules arguments on these boards that have nothing to do with houserules, just the RAW!
I've known lots of people like this though, not just in D&D/PF. Scrabble is my favorite example, but it's also true of just about any board game. Officialness makes the arguments shorter, more time to play. I can see the benefit of that point of view, even if it's not how I run.
Depends on who you're gaming with. The more adamant folks will sometimes need to be bludgeoned over the head, so to speak. It becomes quicker relative to the length of arguing they would've otherwise had. Printing out the FAQ and the errata and having it handy really helps the process too. It won't work for everybody, though. I can imagine a situation where it does though, so I am not going to toss it out right away.
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Only if people have memorized the rules, and fully agree on how they are interpreted. Otherwise, in my experience, they become interminably longer, as people scramble to look it up, sometimes find slightly contradictory or misleading citations, and proceed to argue about how it is interpreted. Just look at the rules arguments on these boards that have nothing to do with houserules, just the RAW!I've known lots of people like this though, not just in D&D/PF. Scrabble is my favorite example, but it's also true of just about any board game. Officialness makes the arguments shorter, more time to play. I can see the benefit of that point of view, even if it's not how I run.RD likes his games official. He has as long as I've seen him posting, going all the way back to d20 modern before Gleemax.And? So then he should have no complaint. Barbarians lost their rage powers if they took a lawful alignment "before gleemax" existed. Paizo said they goofed. So, he's only been allowed to "officially" play a raging lawful barbarian monk for a very short time.
Sounds like he either needs to a) get over it and make a houserule, or b) not complain about something that was pretty obviously a mistake in the first place and was fairly quickly resolved.
Yep. In Kirth's game, we have an insane amount of houserules (classes were all completely rewritten, combat rules changed to suit, new feats, skill consolidations and what they do, etc) and the only thing we ever discuss, really, is an occasional spell interpretation. Every RAW game I've been involved with invariably becomes Rules Lawyer Hell.
That depends on how you treat these things in your game world, which is highly GM dependant. In one game world, being a Paladin could be a title that any pious warrior can take, and thus fighters, cavaliers, rogues, bards, or any other class could take claim the title. In this case, the game world may see a difference between the different people, but just accept that not everyone who trains to be a holy defender gets the same powers. In annother, only people who have the Paladin's abilities may be able to claim the title, and anyone without those powers may be hunted. Different settings, different interpretations of powers. It is something that is really up to the GM.
A Paladin does not by default have a bigger claim to the "holy knight, protector of good" role than a wide array of other classes for example. My Cavalier (let's say Order of the Star, but most of the Orders work) with the Sacred Touch trait can claim paladin-hood and no one in the village would bat an eye as they see her ride in on a mighty steed, wielding a lance and shield, and stabilize dying folks with a touch. Just like there's no reason to say that the Monk can't have (through some training the deviates from the standard monk training) access to a state of mind that happens to confer +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 AC, +2 Will saves.While you can lie to the common folk, anyone who lies and clams a tittle he does not deserve has no honor. If he is claiming to be something he is not, someone will find out at some point and once that happens he is in for a world of hurt depending on the setting.
Class abilities are not invisible. And orders do not take kindly to fakes or con men using their good name. Your caviler would be banned a conman, a lie and a fake. I can see orders hunting him down to punish him for his crimes, seeing his name ruined and letting it known far and wide he can not be trusted.
He can call himself a paladin all day long, it is a lie.
For the purposes of board discussion it should be assumed the book definition is what is being used. I could say my d12, full BAB, raging, non sneak attacking character is a rogue, but I might confuse a lot of people.
Edit(several minutes and post later):After reading the other post are we discussing what a class is, or what it can be called in game? I am confused. If you are saying a title I agree the rules are not attacked to titles, but the rules are married to the classes. That allows a "bard" to be cleric or a "cleric" to be a priest. It also allows a "fighter" to be a paladin, but not everyone in full plate can be a "paladin"
Dude, ya can fool some folks but know religion will pin ya down, spellcraft as well, a few other spell and such if ya really want to know,
Ya can't hide it from someone who knows what they are doing, if your calling yourself a cleric and your not some of the faith will take offance to that.
Ya spend 10 mins with a farmer, your prob safe, ya spend 3 weeks going across contry with folks who know what to look for, then no it's not imposable for them to find out you lied
Dude, ya can fool some folks but know religion will pin ya down, spellcraft as well,
I disagree. Knowledge (religion) could tell that he really does worship Erastil. Spellcraft could show that he casts Cure Light Wounds. Neither of those would tell you which class he is.
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Dude, ya can fool some folks but know religion will pin ya down, spellcraft as well, a few other spell and such if ya really want to know,
Ya can't hide it from someone who knows what they are doing, if your calling yourself a cleric and your not some of the faith will take offance to that.
Ya spend 10 mins with a farmer, your prob safe, ya spend 3 weeks going across contry with folks who know what to look for, then no it's not imposable for them to find out you lied
You haven't pointed out how they would differentiate it. What are they looking for? What differences can they discern in that situation?
You are dodging the question and falling back on 'they can make rolls and know'. How can they know? How can they tell the difference, short of using powerful divination magic?
Edit: Exactly my point Avalon. And Knowledge (Local) will tell you he has a reputation as a healer, and as a holy man (read- cleric in most cases). Incidentally the character in my example is an ORACLE, just FYI :).
Dude, ya can fool some folks but know religion will pin ya down, spellcraft as well,I disagree. Knowledge (religion) could tell that he really does worship Erastil. Spellcraft could show that he casts Cure Light Wounds. Neither of those would tell you which class he is.
I disagree, know religion cover a great deal more then what god ya worship, but also how you worship and so on, spell craft will tell you if clw was cast and how it was cast.
Does he have abilities that class displays? when he uses magical ability are those ones found within the faith used by clergy? does he display powers not found in the clergy ranks? All this can be seen if someone wishes to do the looking, most folks will not care, some might.
Lets say ya have always the same spells, and can not pray for a spell you really, really need that other clerics can have, but you do not, what about mass healing with a burst of enrgy, lowy clerics can do that but you can't? Busted.
Edit: I figed it was, but as I said, spell will post ya as will your lack of channel. Having powers outside of the faiths domains also will post ya at times.
Know religion however will peg ya as a oracle, both by how you cast and by your curse and limited spell selection, lack of channel. You don't pray for new spells, you don't cast the same way and so on.
I disagree, know religion cover a great deal more then what god ya worship, but also how you worship and so on, spell craft will tell you if clw was cast and how it was cast.
There isn't anything in the spellcraft skill description that indicates it could help you tell an arcane spell from a divine, or a prepared spell from a spontaneous.
Dude, ya can fool some folks but know religion will pin ya down, spellcraft as well,I disagree. Knowledge (religion) could tell that he really does worship Erastil. Spellcraft could show that he casts Cure Light Wounds. Neither of those would tell you which class he is.
With enough observation it could, and at the right time. That time is not always available so the character may be able to bluff for quiet a good amount of time before his abilities are discovered.
I disagree and so does paizo it seems,how you cast is covered, arcane/divine is covered in both spellcraft and religion/arcane skills.
The two types of magic are viable, if it were not so then ya could use scrolls no matter what type of caster you are.
I disagree, know religion cover a great deal more then what god ya worship, but also how you worship and so on, spell craft will tell you if clw was cast and how it was cast.
There isn't anything in the spellcraft skill description that indicates it could help you tell an arcane spell from a divine, or a prepared spell from a spontaneous.
The lack of a divine focus, or use of one would take care of that for divine or arcane. As for a wizard or sorc ask them to produce a spellbook, and watch to see if they use it. Wizards also know all cantrips.
I disagree and so does paizo it seems,how you cast is covered, arcane/divine is covered in both spellcraft and religion/arcane skills.
Citation? I don't see it in the rules.
The knowledge skills can identify exactly as much as the DM says, which could be everything or just the specific items in the skills rules. It still doesn't prevent refluffing of mechanics.
Those items are covered in the skill rules. They are listed in the skill discribsion. So yeah unless your GM just disallows it they can.
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They couldn't see my curse if i'm only ever puclicly visible in full plate riding a wolf, do keep up.
So your saying to determine it, they have to
-Closely study me, observe all of my spellcasting habits (all spellcraft does is determine what spell it was, even determining if it is divine is a stretch and not RAW, not to mention the rest of your points...)
-Notice if I ever channel or not (perhaps I simply choose not to? I could have been a life oracle with decent handle animal...).
-There are very Oracle spells only, and lets say this Oracle didn't choose any of them.
-Theres nothing stopping my oracle praying every day, and once more RAW you can't tell if i'm gaining spells or not through spellcraft.
Here are my key points-
1. Your points are based off extremely generous interpretations of skills, adding your own interpretations in addition to the RAW, I might even go as far as to say your basically house-ruling.
2. You've effectively admitted the only way they will be able to tell the difference is rigorous, careful study of every spell this character casts, every move he makes. THIS ISN'T A NORMAL THING TO DO. To the general population, the rumour mill and anyone who doesn't expend huge resources to spy on every detail of this careful oracle's life, they will assume he is a cleric. He doesn't wear an 'oracle badge'.
3. If we assumed I was a life oracle your channel point is redundant. And not every cleric channels positively, something you should know and by your own arguments something that everyone in the world will seem to know too- plenty of neutral clerics choose to inflict and use cure lights et. to heal, like my 'cleric' could have been doing. Moot point IMO, they can't be sure from lack of channel heal that i'm an oracle.
4. All of your remaining points are effectively you adding to what the skills do RAW. If in your games a successful spellcraft check will determine if a cast spell is divine or arcane in nature, that is a house rule (apart from the obvious divine spells that can't be gained through arcane means- and thats very few if we start to include pathfinder savant among other things...). Going as far as to imply that not only can they do that (house-rule) but they can also see whether its a cleric or oracle doing the casting with it (house-rule) is fine in your game, but I tend to try and keep mine mostly RAW, at least for the purpose of debate.
The lack of a divine focus, or use of one would take care of that for divine or arcane.
What if my sorcerer thinks of himself as a priest and busts out a holy symbol whenever he casts?
As for a wizard or sorc ask them to produce a spellbook, and watch to see if they use it. Wizards also know all cantrips.
This assumes that:
A) People would actually go around trying to bust people on what their class is
B) That this would be anything but metagame driven and
C) That you'd cooperate with them for some reason.
I'm not sure any of those things is realistic, much less all three.
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The knowledge skills can identify exactly as much as the DM says, which could be everything or just the specific items in the skills rules. It still doesn't prevent refluffing of mechanics.Those items are covered in the skill rules. They are listed in the skill discribsion. So yeah unless your GM just disallows it they can.
Can what? Identify what mechanic you're using? Congratulation, you get the fluff we just reskinned over it. What point are you trying to make? I never said anything about 'you can't identify it'.
Citation? I don't see it in the rules.I disagree and so does paizo it seems,how you cast is covered, arcane/divine is covered in both spellcraft and religion/arcane skills.
Paizo uses that trick all the time, magical traditions is covered, the rules themselves make it imposable to cast a arcane spell if your not arcane and vice versa.
If you can not tell, there is no need to have two different styles listed. Yet they spell it out load and clear. Spell craft will tell you what type of spell, and what spell it was. Know arcana covers arcane spells, religion covers divine spells.
YA can choose to ignore them but they are in the book.
What if my sorcerer thinks of himself as a priest and busts out a holy symbol whenever he casts?
spell craft will still ID the spell. It will be an arcane or divine spell. Ya can't hide that.
What point are you trying to make? I never said anything about 'you can't identify it'.
My point is ya can't hide magical ability. They can always be ID. Ya can keep em hidden for a while, but anyone with the correct skills, knowledge or spells and your busted.
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I'm going to show the appropiate skill check we're talking about here- identifying a spell as its being cast.
Identify Spell Being Cast: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
No mention of clarifying whether the spell is arcane or divine, just identifying the spell itself.
The ambiguity here could be the word 'Identify'. I'll admit that could e interpreted to mean 'figure out what the spell is AND what its source is' but it seems to mean 'figure out what the spell is' to me.
Lets have a quick look at the spell identify too.
This spell functions as detect magic, except that it gives you a +10 enhancement bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties and command words of magic items in your possession. This spell does not allow you to identify artifacts.
Ok, so lets now go look at detect magic...
DESCRIPTIONYou detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.
Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
You can identify the spell's aura, but still nothing about determining whether a spell is arcane or divine.
Edit: Even in 3E there were many spells that appeared on both the arcane and divine lists seeker, wrong again.
I will also throw in knowledge (arcana) here-
Identify auras while using detect magic Arcana 15 + spell level
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify materials manufactured by magic Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify a spell that just targeted you Arcana 25 + spell level
Identify the spells cast using a specific material component Arcana 20
Yet again no mention of IDing divine and arcane.
Would you care to dodge any more of my counter-points please? :)
Where did I ever say different?What point are you trying to make? I never said anything about 'you can't identify it'.My point is ya can't hide magical ability. They can always be ID. Ya can keep em hidden for a while, but anyone with the correct skills, knowledge or spells and your busted.
Dude that is my whole argument, ya have been arguing with me so I figed ya disagreed. Otherwise, why ya been arguing?
Alexander, the two types of magic are cast differently. There is no need to state the obvious. If a cleric casts a spell it is always cast as a divine spell, if a bard casts a spell it is always arcane. They are not cast the same why and it shows.
If they are cast the same why, there is no need for it pointing out they are cast different. So if they are not different they are the same..so where does it say ya can cast cleric spell? and if not why can't you cast them?
Otherwise, why ya been arguing?Force of habit? When are we NOT arguing? :)
eh we agree sometimes.
It should also be noted that using abilities most others don't have isn't even a tell, because from a fluff perspective your character doesn't know what knowledge he lacks. I might have a really high knowledge skill, but someone could still tell me it is a racial ability or special training from a far off land/alternate plane, quite common there. How can you prove it false? A knowledge check would tell you you don't know about it, and that could either be because it isn't true or you didn't meet the DC. It might even be true - if I claim I'm a fighter, but I cast daylight every day, it could be because I'm not really a fighter... or it could be I'm an aasimar fighter. They don't always show physical signs of heritage.
spell craft will still ID the spell. It will be an arcane or divine spell. Ya can't hide that.
By rules as written, no, you don't. Read the skill description a thousand times and it still won't be there.
It's pretty much the height of gamer uncouth to tell people they're wrong if they're not using your house rules.
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Alexander, the two types of magic are cast differently. There is no need to state the obvious. If a cleric casts a spell it is always cast as a divine spell, if a bard casts a spell it is always arcane. They are not cast the same why and it shows.
If they are cast the same why, there is no need for it pointing out they are cast different. So if they are not different they are the same..so where does it say ya can cast cleric spell? and if not why can't you cast them?
I think your missing my point. Theres nothing in the skills that says you can identify whether a spell is arcane or divine.
A man stands in front of you, dressed in a chain shirt. He touches his hand to his friends shoulder. Your successful spellcraft check lets you realise hes casting cure light wounds.
By your logic, hes guaranteed to be a divine caster. But hes not.
Edit: Thankyou Mongoose, i'm glad someone can see hes basically ignoring what the skill can do and adding to it... Which is all he has left for the situation I gave, except for powerful divination magic (debatable but lets not go there), channel argument (addressed above) and curse (spot my lame leg in full plate sir)
Seeker-: I agree, any class can eventually be ID'ed. But in situations it can take supreme amounts of resources, time and effort. All the methods you have mentioned are restricted to a very small percentage of the population, and the only one that has any stock in it in the situation I gave you is divination (which may have been my point lol) or intense study of an individual- this is not normal. For all intents and purposes this Oracle could be called a healer, a priest, a holy man, a divine warrior, a cleric, or indeed an oracle...
I will stop posting here now anyway, I feel I have made all my points and i'm beginning to feel guilty for the thread de-rail.
I never liked Barbarian/Monks anyway...
In Golarion at least it seems that classes are very much Identifyed by abilities (after all why would cultists of Razmir pretend to be clerics if anyone could just declare themselves as such)
more derail, but in Golarion a cleric must have a god. So Razmir can't have clerics as he is not a real god.
And Alexander, I disagree, ya can tell what type of casting it is. tis visible.
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In Golarion at least it seems that classes are very much Identifyed by abilities (after all why would cultists of Razmir pretend to be clerics if anyone could just declare themselves as such)more derail, but in Golarion a cleric must have a god. So Razmir can't have clerics as he is not a real god.
Yes I know hence why In Golarion the mechanics do have an affect on the fluff
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In Golarion at least it seems that classes are very much Identifyed by abilities (after all why would cultists of Razmir pretend to be clerics if anyone could just declare themselves as such)more derail, but in Golarion a cleric must have a god. So Razmir can't have clerics as he is not a real god.
And Alexander, I disagree, ya can tell what type of casting it is. tis visible.
I've shown you the RAW. Your still free to disagree, but with nothing to back it up i'm still going to think your wrong- especially as you don't respond to counter points.
Last reply to you. Promise :)
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I disagree, know religion cover a great deal more then what god ya worship, but also how you worship and so on, spell craft will tell you if clw was cast and how it was cast.Know religion however will peg ya as a oracle, both by how you cast and by your curse and limited spell selection, lack of channel. You don't pray for new spells, you don't cast the same way and so on.
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy
Know common mythology and tenets
Recognize an obscure deity's symbol or clergy
That is all the PRD has for Knowledge(Religion)
Also, how exactly is someone going to tell the difference between an Oracle with the Lame curse and some who is actually lame but is really strong? Let's say both are carrying the same amount of weight.
What the difference between someone with the Huanted curse and someone who is the target of pixie pranks?
Wasting curse and actual wasting?
It also covers gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead
Arcana covers ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts
So yes, it does cover they type of casting. Ya can disagree if ya like but How you cast a spell is part of your class, how you cast a spell is visible and can be ID
ya can tell what type of casting it is. tis visible.
I will say it very clearly one last time and then let the threadjack go:
By the rules as written, you cannot.
If you disagree, find something in the rules that says otherwise, by which I mean, quote the relevant passage or give the page number, vs. asserting the rules say something they actually don't.
I disagree by RAW you can or wizards can cast cleric scrolls. As they can not then the magic must be different, it is cast different so it is different. It is covered in both spellcraft and knowledge skills.
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I disagree by RAW you can or wizards can cast cleric scrolls. As they can not then the magic must be different, it is cast different so it is different. It is covered in both spellcraft and knowledge skills.
Where?
Wait, did you just say 'if you can't tell the difference between a wizard casting a spell and a cleric casting a spell, wizards can cast cleric spells'?