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Let's say you use shadow conjuration to cast create pit, and a creature standing in that space disbelieves. What happens? Does it take 20%% of the falling damage?
I'm thinking falling damage is environmental and not directly caused by the spell itself, but I could see argument for either way. Trying to visualise how a creature falls that far and not take as much damage because, uh, the distance isn't real is... confusing.
I think that the various Pit spells follow this specific rule of the Shadow Conjuration spell:
"Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work."
The 'pit' by itself is akin to an object (the spell description says that you 'create' an extradimensional hole, after all). I think that if the Will save succeeds, the spell has only a 20% to effectively work. If after the 20% roll and the Reflex save the creature still falls in the pit, it should receive full damage (a 30-ft. fall is still a 30-ft. fall, illusionary or not, so 3d6).
Just my 2c.
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I would agree that anyone who disbelieves suffers only 20% of the effect, meaning 20% of the falling damage. Actually, I would extend this even to the DC of the climb check to get out. So disbelievers only need to make a DC 5 climb check to climb the walls. It still costs some time (about a round) unless they have a climb speed at least as high as the pit is deep.
On a more general note: I've been wondering about the saves against a Shadow spells for some time. You roll a will save against illusions to disbelieve, but what about the refelex save against the pit (to stay with the example of create pit)? Is that save against an Illusion or a Conjuration save? Seems important for stuff like spell focus.
EDIT: Oh, and while we are at it: Will a moster summoned with a shadow spell get the bonus of Augment Summoning?
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Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
Hmmm, since your mimicking specific spells with another spell I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be allowed. I'd allow it at my table at least, especially if your investing 2 feats to do it.
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I think that the various Pit spells follow this specific rule of the Shadow Conjuration spell:
"Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work."
The 'pit' by itself is akin to an object (the spell description says that you 'create' an extradimensional hole, after all). I think that if the Will save succeeds, the spell has only a 20% to effectively work. If after the 20% roll and the Reflex save the creature still falls in the pit, it should receive full damage (a 30-ft. fall is still a 30-ft. fall, illusionary or not, so 3d6).
Just my 2c.
I agree with the wraith, partial damage doesn't make sense in this context and the 20% chance to effect does.
On a slightly-related note: Would True Seeing completely defeat all Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation spells? As far as your senses are concerned, nothing's even there.
The question about true seeing kind-of sheds some light on the situation.
In the case of create pit, what's happening when you fail the save is that you believe you're falling further than you are, and the result is your mind inflicts the full damage upon you, and when you look up, you think you're deeper in the ground than you are. If you make the will save, you then realize it's a shorter drop than it seems to be, and it's an easier climb out.
If you have True Seeing, you definitely know the pit isn't so deep, as it bestows "See through Illusions" as one of its effects.
As per Bard-Sader's question, no, True Seeing sees through Illusions, but shadow conjurations ect. are quasi-real. There IS something there and it IS messing with you physically, but you know it's a weaksauce version of the real thing with True Seeing. The same goes for things immune to Illusions or Mind-Affecting effects. They suffer only the diminished effects of shadow illusions.
So when you cast Shadow Conjuration (Create Pit) you really are conjuring a pit. It's just that the pit is about 1/5 as deep, but if your will is not strong enough to get past the sensory tricking magics, then you make it a lot worse than it actually is.
So what happens then you summon a Greater Shadow Conjuration (Wall of Stone)?
If you fail the save then it blocks you (and any spells you may wish to aim) 100% of the time. If you make the save then every time you try to walk across it or fire a spell/arrow through it there's a 60% chance of blockage happening?
So, for those of you who are saying there is/should be a percentage chance for it to work on a nonbeliever, how do you handle a nonbeliever not falling in, but a believer falling in? Is the latter "in the ground" and wholly unreachable by the former?
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Create pit does not ever damage you. You are injured by the fall. You can make an acrobatics check to avoid some of the damage, monks can use slow fall to avoid it, flying or levitation makes you immune. You take damage from the fall not the spell.
"If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur."
With a wall of stone and greater you use the same clause, so if 10 people succeeded on their save 6 of them would still be unable to go through the wall.
1) would each person be allowed another save if he failed it the first time but tries to run into the wall again anyways?
2) True Seeing in shadow conjuration cases basically means Save = succeed and that's it? Because there's actually "stuff" there your True Seeing automatically gives you the 40% to avoid the wall?
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First, I didn't write the spells, I'm just telling you what they say. These spells don't damage you so they use option B.
If you disbelieve the spell successfully I would assume you never have to save versus the spell again. Likewise with true seeing you would see the nature of the effect "This is a quasi-real hole". You would still have a 20 or 60% chance of being affected by the spell due to the quasi-real nature of the effect.
"that effect is only 20% likely to occur."
Edit: Actually I think I had this wrong. 20% likely to occur... so the pit is either there or not for everyone. It is not there for some creatures and missing for others. You roll the % to see if it's there and if it's there it works for everyone.
Perhaps you shouldn't treat is as effecting creatures, as it really doesn't directly effect them, but the terrain occupied by the pit. Since objects always make their save, you can only make a pit 20% ect. as deep as the original spell (10'x10'). Meaning a shadow a conjured pit is worthless until it at least is 50% real for a 5'x5' pit.
Considering the spell/pit never ATTACKS, it gets neither set of rules regarding quasi-reality. Your only other options are:
1. The pit is extra-dimensional so it isn't attacking or targeting anyone or any object, therefore works 100%.
2. Treat it as attacking the space it occupies. The pit only succeeds in coming into being 20%(in this case) of the time, 80% the spell does nothing. I think many would prefer this the most, and it falls in line with what Ogre implied. It seems better than no chance for the spell to work at all.
So if I make my save to disbelieve and the spell does not function for me, but it DOES effect my friend standing next to me, can I reach down into the pit and pull him out? Or can I not enter the extradimensional space since "I know it's not real"--even though it clearly is, because Bobby is stuck in the well.
I can't believe I'm the first one to flag this as FAQ
so here's my take on it:
acid pit and such deal less damage, so as you must be immersed more or less, the pit has to have a normal depth.
So those who make the check falling in, having to make a second check to see if they would get full damage doesn't work eiter, because those who don't fall it won't get damage anyway.
So:
Those who disbelieve, disbelieve the physics of the space, and fall slower, and thereafter take damage according to their initial save.
Climbing out should be easier to, as you weight less if you disbelieved the physics.
However I don't really believe that my opinion is 100% correct, so a FAQ is needed.
So if I make my save to disbelieve and the spell does not function for me, but it DOES effect my friend standing next to me, can I reach down into the pit and pull him out? Or can I not enter the extradimensional space since "I know it's not real"--even though it clearly is, because Bobby is stuck in the well.
I would rule it as a 20% chance of actually existing for simplicity's sake.
In other words if you fail the save and the DM rolls below 20% you enter the extradimensional space.
Trying to run it as written is not going to make sense to me.
this kind of makes me think of a roadrunner cartoon, where the Coyote paints something on the ground and the roadrunner stops on it like its not there. the Coyote goes to check it out and plummets to the cayonon thriugh a picture he drew on the wall.
But the real question is what happens if Roadrunner draws a train tunnel, then carefully repaints it so it looks like a normal rock wall again? I.E, if one uses the Invisible Spell metamagic feat from Cityscape with Shadow Conjuration and summon a Wall of Stone, what happens? Do people even get will saves since they don't know that there's anything there to try to disbelieve?
Even if they do, some of them will walk through what is apparently normal space while others get stopped smack dab by empty air!
You wanna be REALLY mean about it? Cast Illusionary Wall and superimpose the illusion exactly on top of the Invisibled Shadow Conjuration Wall of Stone. Maybe make that spell Invisible too, just to screw with See Invisibility.
you know it's a weaksauce version of the real thing with True Seeing. The same goes for things immune to Illusions or Mind-Affecting effects. They suffer only the diminished effects of shadow illusions.
I agree with true seeing and illusion immunity. But why would immunity mind affecting help against shadow spells? They are not mind affecting at all. Undead and constructs would make their save automatically since they are objects, not creatures. But any living being with immunity to mind effects should still have to make a save and suffer 100% if the sell fails.
Or am I missing something?
Hmm, you're probably right Blave. Forget I mentioned Mind-Effecting.
Wraithstrike, if you fail your save, there is no percentile roll.
I was under the impression that mindless undead get screwed over by illusions, since they aren't smart enough to actually try to Disbelieve.
Hm... wasn't there some place in the rules stating that undead are no affected by spells unless those spells affect objects? I think that's written somewhere. And since the Shadow spells say, objects automatically succeed at their will save, I think undead would suffer the reduced effect.
Hm... wasn't there some place in the rules stating that undead are no affected by spells unless those spells affect objects? I think that's written somewhere.
I think you are referring to this:
PRD -> Creatures -> Creature Types -> Undead:
"• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."
And, just for the sake of clarity:
"• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
As you can see, figments (like Major Image) and shadows (like Shadow Conjuration) are excluded, so even a mindless undead can be affected by an illusion (unless it is a pattern - like Rainbow Pattern - or a phantasm - like Phantasmal Killer).
So a Shadow Conjuration Solid Fog might be good for this as well. It's actually great for splitting enemies up since some of them will be slowed by it and some won't. Again, add in Invisible Spell metamagic for more fun!
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The Shadow Conjuration spell says: "Shadow objects or substances have normal effects, except against those who disbelieve them. Each disbelieving creature takes only 20% damage."
Disbelieving a Shadow Conjuration pit (making your Will save) doesn't make it wink out of existence or reduce it's depth..it's still fully there, just of shadowy form. So, albeit illusory/made of shadow, the spell does create a pit of appropriate depth (10 ft / 2 levels, max 30').
The Will save applies to how you see it or interact with it..how real it is to you, not to the pit's actual existence or depth. So regardless of one's Will save, a shadow conjuration pit (or for that matter, anything created by Shadow Conjuration) does exist.
Think of it like this: If you fail your Will save, then the shadow conjuration pit looks entirely real. If you make your Will save, then the pit would appear "shadowy" or just semi-real, but it's still there. (Two people are looking down a shadow conjuration pit..one failed their Will save, one made it. Both see a 30' pit, but one sees a regular-looking coarse stone wall pit, while the other one sees a shadowy quasi-real pit.)
So, if you made your Will save, but then at some point fail a Reflex save to avoid falling into the pit, you'll only take 20% damage from the fall.