Creating an invincible opponent

[the David]

Kill Brigh.

[Mr. Bojangles]

What about negative levels? Wouldn't enough of them from enervation and energy drain siphon away the trolls max hit point total until his negative levels equal his hit dice or his max hit point are 0? You can't fill a pool with water when the pool is flat.

[Zurai]

"Filling the pool with water" does not matter. Even if its maximum hit points were -1,000,000 from negative levels, it still wouldn't be dead until you managed to deal a point of fire or acid damage to it.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Regeneration states that "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration." While energy drain states that "If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its Hit Dice, it dies." So he can't heal the negative levels.

Now it becomes a matter of which rule takes precedence. Does the regeneration take precedence over the negative levels or do the negative leves take precedence over the regeneration? I honestly am not sure about that one. Has anyone found something that gives an answer or even an idea about order of operations for such rules?

Personally, I don't see how any creature regardless of Regeneration or any other ability, can exist with -100 hit points (short of a con score of 100). But Zurai's looking for hard rules to support the conclusion, so that's what I'm trying to find.

[Zurai]

Once again -- I've pointed this out four or five times in this thread so far -- the "restores hit points every round" and the "cannot die" are not co-dependent. They are not linked, except that they are both part of the Regeneration ability and both stop working if Regeneration is suppressed. Just because it takes unhealable "damage" doesn't mean that it can die. The "cannot heal attack forms that don't deal hit point damage" is just clarifying that, yes, Regeneration is just "fast healing plus can't die", it's not "fast healing that works on everything".

[TwilightKnight]

Swivl wrote:

DR/Tuna sandwich

Hilarious!!...best line in this thread.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Ah, I see that I'm rehashing old arguments using new words. That's what I get for not reading every post before adding my own two cents. Then as Krome put it, it becomes a never ending loop of negative hit points. Which would just be wierd. But as of now, Zurai's right. Their is no way to kill that troll with finality, only get it out of th way. Interesting...

[Jaelithe]

Anguish wrote:

I took a look at Stone to Flesh, which I hadn't done previously, not expecting anything interesting there.

Turns out I was wrong. "restoring life and goods". That's saying that Flesh to Stone or petrification in general kills the original creature.

Not sure I agree, Anguish. See below, and give me your take on it.

Quote:

For reference:

"Stone to Flesh:

"This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. For example, this spell would turn an animated stone statue into an animated flesh statue, but an ordinary statue would become a mass of inert flesh in the shape of the statue. You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone."

For additional reference:

"Flesh to Stone:

"The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch. Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell."

Interesting that Stone to Flesh reads, "restoring life [italics mine] and goods," while Flesh to Stone states, "The creature is not dead..." [again, italics mine]. One could easily infer from Stone to Flesh that Flesh to Stone (and petrification in general) kills, but the spell description for FtS specifies that it doesn't.

The best interpretation, in my opinion, is that the body is magically placed into a state of inorganic suspension (while the soul remains present, but dormant)—which would necessarily preclude regeneration [see the previous interpretation of "inert"] ... and therefore allow for the disintegration death of Supertroll.

[As an aside: I'm not sure I'd allow Flesh to Stone transmutational power over magical implements across the board ("along with all its carried gear"), either. Depends, I suppose, on the power of said item. While someone's Potion of Cure Minor Wounds or Dagger +1 would probably succumb, I don't buy into, say, Excalibur transmuted in that fashion.]

[Kaisoku]

Ashiel wrote:

It says they cannot die as long as their regeneration is in effect as part of explaining how they react to DAMAGE, where the general rule is you die when damage exceeds your HP by your Con score. If it meant otherwise, it would have said something along the lines of:

"Creatures with regeneration cannot be killed. Creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0."

This notes that the "cannot die" is a separate quality outside of damage effects, whereas before it is written in the context of damage application. Arguing otherwise seems completely asinine to me.

Heh, actually.. if you read the text:

Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0).

It uses the exact same words you used.

Although, I fail to see how that suddenly makes it so it's not to do with damage. The line about "cannot die" is not a line on it's own, so you must take the full context into consideration.

The line of text is talking about healing damage like fast healing. The "but" afterwards indicates that the next words are a conditional modifier to that previous statement. Since fast healing ends when you die of hitpoint loss, you can restate this sentence to say:

You heal like fast healing, except that you don't die from hitpoint loss and continue to heal as long as your regeneration works (however you still fall unconscious when below 0).

If it said "You cannot die while regeneration is in effect" all by it's lonesome, I'd agree with Zurai's point. But the statement isn't on it's own, and in fact it's a "but" based on the context of fast healing, so I can't treat it as such.

Ultimately you have two ways to interpret this:

1. The cannot die statement is modifying the description of healing damage (how it's different in it's healing compared to fast healing).
Result: 3.5 backward compatibility and no sneaky changes to the way regeneration is run.

2. The cannot die statement is used generically, without applying any context.
Result: Breaking 3.5 compatibility without adding anything to the game (this is against one of their mantras when making Pathfinder by the way), completely ruining the relatively recently created ecology that let them take ownership of the creature's fluff, and creates corner cases of oddness, such as creatures gaining permanent immunities to their weaknesses (trolls aren't the only regenerating creatures).

Occam's Razor. Avoid creating additional assumptions beyond what is necessary to explain the situation.
I prefer the first interpretation because it creates the least amount of assumptions and problems in the game.
Since the first interpretation is a valid one, I'd say it's the correct one.

I'm not saying that the second interpretation isn't valid, however I'd have to say that you make a number of assumptions about the reason for writing the rule that way to come to that conclusion, hence why I don't observe that interpretation.

Yeah. That's right. I just said we are both right, but I'm more right than you. What are you gonna do about it? Huh? Punk? ... Heh, just kidding.
Honestly, people have all the info they need to decide how they want to rule this in their games. The only thing we can do at this point is ask for the people who made the rule to explain what they intended.

FAQ this thread if you are still unsatisfied. I think I will FAQ my post, if only to get an official answer on this one so this part of the discussion will end (I find the discussion of methods of execution more interesting).

[Ravingdork]

Kaisoku wrote:

Since fast healing ends when you die of hitpoint loss...

Your a little off there. Fast healing ends when you die. Period. It doesn't matter whether your killed due to hit point loss or something else entirely.

As such, it doesn't really support your stance.

[Kaisoku]

And yet, fast healing talks of negative hitpoints in that same sentence, clearly implying speach about damage and hitpoint loss.

However, that's beside the point. You have two options: rule it like before, or rule it a way that creates a broken situation.

Your call.

[Zurai]

How is it a broken situation? Why is an enemy that cannot be permanently killed a bad thing? And remember, this doesn't even work until unsupported levels (a half-fiend troll level 20 cleric is an epic character).

[Malafaxous]

Starvation / Thirst.

Lock it away until it dies from this. "Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed -- not even magic that restores hit points heal this damage.

Once this has happened, then you take its unconscious body... because regen would keep it from dying but it would be unable to wake up. You carry it carefully and immerse it into green slime which eats away at is con.

If we argued somewhere that con damage will not kill it then we have a problem. The green slime grows as it consumes organic material...

Eventually your unkillable troll would feed this green slime enough that it would grow to such dimensions that it would fill the Darklands and eat all the drow...

[Kaisoku]

Speaking of feeding things... there's also the Barghest, I believe, that can consume things. Actually, eating the troll at all might do the trick since it's no longer a troll and rather processed organic material.

@Zurai
It breaks my suspension of disbelief, for one. I like my Troll women drowning or starving their overactive males and weakened elderly.
The social background for creatures that simply cannot die, ever, unless they are hit with a specific type of damage, would create an unworkable ecology.
It breaks compatibility with previous rules, with no rhyme or reason given for such a change. Adventures that assumed a Troll would be killed in the water trap, now need to be adjusted due to interpreting the wording this way.
It doesn't have to be 20th level cleric examples to start breaking the immersion and compatibility.

[Anguish]

Jaelithe wrote:

Not sure I agree, Anguish. See below, and give me your take on it.

Damnit, you're right. I knew that when I first looked at FtS but got all excited and forgot I'd read it when I looked up StF.

I'm going to maintain then that RAW, you're not dead, and (Ex) still apply. Again, not what I'd rule in my games, but by RAW the ability maintains. There's no action - even mental - required for (Ex) abilities to operate unless stated (like Rage). They just are.

Even paralyzed you're allowed to breathe. Spells typically don't have effect beyond what they say they do. If a troll has the extraordinary ability to regenerate flesh, what's to say it doesn't have the ability to regenerate stone?

Sigh. We still don't have an unambiguous way to kill this thing without DM fiat.

[MordredofFairy]

Anguish wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

Not sure I agree, Anguish. See below, and give me your take on it.

Damnit, you're right. I knew that when I first looked at FtS but got all excited and forgot I'd read it when I looked up StF.

I'm going to maintain then that RAW, you're not dead, and (Ex) still apply. Again, not what I'd rule in my games, but by RAW the ability maintains. There's no action - even mental - required for (Ex) abilities to operate unless stated (like Rage). They just are.

Even paralyzed you're allowed to breathe. Spells typically don't have effect beyond what they say they do. If a troll has the extraordinary ability to regenerate flesh, what's to say it doesn't have the ability to regenerate stone?

Sigh. We still don't have an unambiguous way to kill this thing without DM fiat.

yes we have.

was not my idea, but still:

Exploit Weakness (Ex)

At 14th level, the inquisitor learns to take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself. Whenever the inquisitor scores a critical hit, she ignores any damage reduction the target might have. In addition, if the target has regeneration, the creature loses regeneration on the round following the critical hit and can die normally during that round. Creatures whose regeneration always functions are immune to this ability. Finally, if the inquisitor deals energy damage to a creature with vulnerability to that energy type, she deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

That very much qualifies for troll killing(considering that the regeneration for the troll as written is not "always active", he just becomes immune to the damage types that cancel it). Considering any build(except the devil-bound army ants i proposed earlier) that becomes otherwise "immune" is quite a high CR, Level 14 isn't that far off.

Aside from that:
"Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."

Yep, great, he cannot die. But:

starvation and dehydration wrote:

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Characters that take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their total hit points begin to take lethal damage instead.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Characters that take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their total hit points begin to take lethal damage instead.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

So yep, chop him up good, then let the body starve and dehydrate.

They take damage from that. They don't regenerate that damage themselves. And Magic will not restore them unless they eat/drink first(fat chance of that with -999 HP).

Now, theoretically, since damage done to the troll in pathfinder is still "lethal" damage instead of nonlethal, you could claim that healing magics could bring the Troll up to 0 HP eventually, meaning it's disabled, and could then eat and drink to start regenerating again, but that's stretchy.

I mean, just bury the thing somewhere after it started starving, or keep it in a dungeon, or whatever. Heck, it's better than most other options, because it can't be Resurrected by the enemies, because technically, it's not dead. Just hack it up once and wait until you get access to lvl 14 inquisitors, imprison, ...whatever strikes your fancy.
Heck, you can plane shift to the negative energy plane, drop the unconscious body there, and shift back *shrug*

Heck, if you want to get rules lawery, get something that drains con, poison, wraiths, whatever, because at 0 Con he's dead, per definition. Yes, if his Con gets upped again, he could start regenerating.
But until then, he is, per rules, dead, without having died.
And the dead condition states:
"The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic."
So he will neither regenerate, and having the soul exit seems to qualify for a soul bind...

Alternatively, get a scroll of "Trap the Soul".
1.: Trap the unconscious Troll in the Gem.
2.: Cast shrink Item and Permanency on the Gem.
2a.: (If possible: Research a permanent Version of "Magic Aura" or have the Gem created as including a permanent magic aura effect that makes it seem nonmagical, or include nondetection as well if possible)
3.: Drop the grain of sand somewhere in the ocean.
4.: Forget about the troll.

(Also saver than killing it outright because guys working for/sponsoring a level 20 troll cleric will usually have 25k to spend on a true resurrection...)

[Malafaxous]

I like the above trapping its soul in a gem, but instead of banishing it to the bottom of the ocean or the middle of a desert... how about using it as a key component in a phylactory as a lich?

Let your enemies know what destroying your phylactory would unleash upon the world and laugh as they accept the lesser of 2 evils.

[Zurai]

Kaisoku wrote:

It breaks compatibility with previous rules, with no rhyme or reason given for such a change. Adventures that assumed a Troll would be killed in the water trap, now need to be adjusted due to interpreting the wording this way.

Really? Does it REALLY matter for the adventure whether the troll is slain or just disabled for an indefinite amount of time that will extend at least until the adventure is over? Somehow I very much doubt that. Every instance of "drown the trolls" I can think of in a published module works just fine under the interpretation I've been arguing for.

[Malafaxous]

Zurai wrote:

Kaisoku wrote:

It breaks compatibility with previous rules, with no rhyme or reason given for such a change. Adventures that assumed a Troll would be killed in the water trap, now need to be adjusted due to interpreting the wording this way.

Really? Does it REALLY matter for the adventure whether the troll is slain or just disabled for an indefinite amount of time that will extend at least until the adventure is over? Somehow I very much doubt that. Every instance of "drown the trolls" I can think of in a published module works just fine under the interpretation I've been arguing for.

Well I suppose if we are talking a level 20 cleric troll, it could have waterbreathing made permanent on itself...

[Charender]

Malafaxous wrote:

Zurai wrote:

Kaisoku wrote:

It breaks compatibility with previous rules, with no rhyme or reason given for such a change. Adventures that assumed a Troll would be killed in the water trap, now need to be adjusted due to interpreting the wording this way.

Really? Does it REALLY matter for the adventure whether the troll is slain or just disabled for an indefinite amount of time that will extend at least until the adventure is over? Somehow I very much doubt that. Every instance of "drown the trolls" I can think of in a published module works just fine under the interpretation I've been arguing for.

Well I suppose if we are talking a level 20 cleric troll, it could have waterbreathing made permanent on itself...

So drown it in a permanent anti-magic zone.

If you wanted something a little lower level, I don't see anything in the RAW that says a red dragon cannot take the half-black dragon template(Call it a mad wizard's experiment). That sets the stage for adding the half-dragon to a troll twice(Once for red and once for black). That would give you a troll CR 9 troll who is immune to fire and acid. Yes, it is cheese, but I think it is allowed by the letter of the RAW.

[MordredofFairy]

heck, just defeat it normally.

Get a Scythe. Enlarge Person.

26 STR=> 8*1.5= + 12 damage.
Power attack=> at Level 12=> +8 damage.

Without weapon mastery, rage, or any other gimmicks, thats 2d6(average 7) +20 damage.

With a coup-de-grace attack, thats autocrit, for 100+ damage per attack.

Hand your rogue-buddy a skinning knife and tell him to go psychotic on the troll with sneaking him into filet, doing about 6d6 sneak with 2 attacks.

Fast-forward for 10 minutes of troll-hacking.(60 rounds). The troll is now at -10k HP or less. with regeneration 5 thats 2000 rounds, or more than 5 hours for him to come back. Setup camp. Sometime in the middle of the day, start hacking it down again.

Meanwhile, the wizard plays around and creates and "automatic reset" trap out of a dagger, his pencil, and a couple berries the pacifist hippie druid chick picked.

Out comes a weaker version of:

Wall Scythe Trap CR 4
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Trigger location; Reset automatic reset
Effect Atk +20 melee (2d4+6/×4)

namely the

Troll-Slicer Implant CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception 1; Disable Device 5.
Trigger perpetual; Reset automatic reset.
Effect Atk +5 melee (1d4+3/*2)

(This is a device you plant in a unsconscious troll. Every couple seconds, a device rotates and pumps the attached dagger into one of 3 spots on the troll it's attached to.)

which does enough damage to more than offset what the troll regenerates.
Be on your way merily, dig him a grave if you have the time and muse, and forget about him.
If it's a dangerous troll(say a half-dragon half-dragon half-demon cleric 20), place him in a dungeon and have 4 Wall Scythe Traps placed right around him.
Call it a meat grinder and make sure they also hit the small parts that will eventually be scattered as fine dust on the floor. Wait: have the floor be of/covered/attuned to an element that the troll is not immune to.

They'll do 44 damage per turn(plus criticals) to it, without ever needing rest(and there is nothing that indicates traps ever wear out, dull, or stop working...so if a double half-dragon troll is in, then you can respond with cheese, too ;) )...even if eventually someone comes and free's the troll, they'd need a nations worth of healing power focused on it for a few weeks or month to get him into positives again.

Really, once something is down, it stays down.
Calling DM Fiat in and allowing the Troll to die if the players find a creative way to go about it, is the merciful thing to do here.
Heck, let a wizard research a level 5 spell that does nothing except stop a creatures regeneration ability for 1 round, highly situational, powerful, but likely only useful for that, so have that as a storyline spell if you want.

[Hairy Legs in the Dark]

Why you guys trying to kill the troll?
Poor little troll,… come here.

Why you trying to work out how to kill it? Just cast charm monster and watch your enemies try work it out!
Or I can get my dire bear to eat it. If it reforms from bear pats, then that sounds a sight worth watching!
I thought the starvation/drown thing too, leaves him out of my way. So what hes “alive” somewhere 40ft under water used as a ships mooring for my lifes term…but.its not in my face killing me!!
Or just rip him down, tie him up and drop him in a deep hole and fill her in.
He may not die, but he will wish he was. Especially if I return to uncover his head and spoon scoop its brains out on a monthly basis and feed to my cat. I don’t care if your super man, but immobile for a month in darkness, (passed out or otherwise) then a 5 min break to have my skull caved in each month doesn’t sound a lifestyle Id wish to pursue for too long.
But I always need make a living too!. Maybe I could gather a few of these things, manacle and bury their bodies under ground up to their necks If I caught 18 of them I could start up an always ready to go golf course for the hill giants!!

If you really have to kill it,…. with some quick thought, Id try this…
1) Chop its head off and then stand it on a rock upside down, the head cant regrow into stone. Pretty ornament too, but don’t knock it over! besides, i like the word incapacitated over dead, cause then the party doesnt stop!
2) Your problems are his resistances…but it still feels pain and has rudementary intellegence for you to tamper with. Torture permanently till it wants out and rejects obligation to gods, there by making him vulnerable again… or no time to ch3eck, but if he can suppress the ability, he will. Once gone, hes gone.
3) Or just go kill his God instead for being such an utter bugger for giving him resistances and us all these dramas in the first place. Sounds easier than all this!

[Nosforontu]

Baleful Polymorph would seem to be a fairly low levelish solution to the problem.

"If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this
second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural,
and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells"

No extraordinary abilities means no active regeneration and can thus be killed in any manner you want. Now granted this troll build is going to have pretty good saves but it only takes one failed save for the troll to be killed

[archmagi1]

level 13 party defeating fire and acid immune troll:

*defeat* the troll (reducing to 0hp)

keep beating on the body constantly while you transport it to the frozen arctic or some similar place that does damage every round (of neither fire nor acid since its immune), also be immune to this damage yourself

have your cleric cast destruction on the stabilized/dying creature until it works

alternatively, level 9 cleric:

plane-shift to positive energy plane. it will eventually be consumed by too many HP

[Derek Vande Brake]

I really think the troll would have some kind of easy activation item that gives it an antimagic field, and can be deactivated if waterbreathing is needed. This is a cleric of the goddess of invention after all.

[Charender]

1. Incapicitate the creature.
2. Wish for the creature's regeneration to stop temporarily.
3. Kill creature.

[Derek Vande Brake]

So, just an update on where we stand.

We have a half-fiend troll cleric of Brigh, level 20. It has the Diehard feat (per initial post). It has crafted an item that gives it a permanent antimagic field, which can be deactivated if it needs waterbreathing.

So, it cannot be targeted by magic (Antimagic Field) or magical byproducts, can not be drowned, and cannot be killed by damage. Though, if you disable the antimagic field first, or make sure it can't cast water breathing somehow, two of those would work.

Perhaps make it a scrag, instead? Of course, then it needs to stay in water, and if you could somehow get it out it would be screwed.

Edit: And yeah, I realize the Inquisitor could still do it. But it would almost certainly take an inquisitor to do so at this point.

[MordredofFairy]

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

So, just an update on where we stand.

We have a half-fiend troll cleric of Brigh, level 20. It has the Diehard feat (per initial post). It has crafted an item that gives it a permanent antimagic field, which can be deactivated if it needs waterbreathing.

So, it cannot be targeted by magic (Antimagic Field) or magical byproducts, can not be drowned, and cannot be killed by damage. Though, if you disable the antimagic field first, or make sure it can't cast water breathing somehow, two of those would work.

Perhaps make it a scrag, instead? Of course, then it needs to stay in water, and if you could somehow get it out it would be screwed.

Edit: And yeah, I realize the Inquisitor could still do it. But it would almost certainly take an inquisitor to do so at this point.

No. The fail is that the antimagic is item-dependent.

So save-or-suck spells, yeah, they're out.
Hacking it up normally, taking the item(or waiting for magic to run out), and THEN doing magic tricks, still in.

Even if you have a permanent anti-magic aura courtesy of a miracle, not item-bound, there's still disjunction.

And IF there are permanent anti-magic aura's, then the Devil-Bound(regeneration, breakable by silvered/aligned weapons and spells with good descriptor) Army Ant Swarm(immune to weapons) with permanent anti-magic aura(immune to magic) is immortal at level

CR 5 for Army Ants, +1 for devil-bound(kyton), and another +1 for permanent anti-magic.

So, CR 7 or something like that...no need for level 20 trolls then -_- and you CAN'T even hack them up normally, because weapons don't DO damage. Oh, they are also immune to fire/poison and have resist 10 to acid and cold(so no alchemists fire/normal fires/acid pools/climate damages)
Better get some kind of hamster-driven natural-electricity generator online that can hurt them initially and then keep them down, hu?

[Psisquared]

I have a couple of ways to deal with this "invincible" troll.

1. Eat it. If the troll is knocked out, cut up, and devoured in its entirety by one or more creatures, its got to be gone...right?

2. If that doesn't work, have the 9th level wizard steal that awesome troll body with magic jar.

[Steelfiredragon]

To kill such a beast troll.

simple.

spells that drown, starve, drop ability scores, wish spell, teleportation spells, suffocations, etc will take it out or at the least make it so that it can't go anywhere, and then use permanency and make it permanent

or you could get creative and summon a bullette and say after the spell ends and the creature vanishes, the troll is dead....

severed limbs and all

[Trinam]

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

I started with a simple dream... to make an unkillable monster.

So I thought, what happens if you give a troll immunity to fire and acid? How can I do this?

Well, it turns out that Brigh is the only Pathfinder deity with both Earth and Fire domains, so a 20th level cleric with both of those would be immune to fire and acid. (Oracle or Wizard levels could give you immunity to one, but not both.)

How do you get a troll that high, though? I mean, they only have a Wisdom of 9, not exactly good stats for a cleric. True, they get a boost from having class levels, but if you assign one of their +4s to Wisdom that still leaves them a bit short. (Plus, a cleric of the goddess of invention should have a higher Intelligence than 10, assuming you put the other +4 there.)

So then I figured, well, why not add the Half-Fiend Template, too? That'll allow us to bump up the appropriate stats, giving us a 17 in Wisdom and a 14 in Intelligence, plus any gains from leveling up to 26 hit dice.

So we have a Half-Fiend Troll Cleric of Brigh 20, with Earth and Fire domains. We give it Diehard for added maliciousness.

Here's my challenge: how do you kill it... and can you think of what could be added on to negate that method?

Step one: Tie up troll

Step two: Helm of Opposite Alignment until it sticks.

The troll is no longer within one step of its deity, and as a result loses Earth and Fire domain abilities along with its cleric-y-ness.

Filet as usual.

[Steelfiredragon]

Try this one
CE Troll (large humanoid )
with the following
templates:
Half fiend
Half-dragon
advanced
Giant
entropic

so base troll as noted from the pathfinder srd.
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +8

DEFENSEAC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 14; (+2 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 63 (6d8+36); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3

OFFENSESpeed 30 ft.
Melee bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+7)

STATISTICSStr 21, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Intimidate +9, Perception +8
Languages Giant
now with each of the templates you have:
AC 25
Flight 60
STATISTICSStr 41, Dex 24, Con 42, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 14
half fiend
Gains darkvision 60 feet; immunity to poison; acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10; DR 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more); and SR equal to creature's CR + 11 (maximum 35).

Spell-Like Abilities: A half-fiend with an Int or Wis score of 8 or higher has a cumulative number of spell-like abilities set by its HD. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable 1/day. CL equals the creature's HD (or the CL of the base creature's spell-like abilities, whichever is higher).

Abilities: A half-fiend gains a +4 bonus on three ability scores of its choice and a +2 bonus on the other three.

Half-dragons are only rarely the result of dragons mating with other creatures—most are the result of strange magical experiments. In most cases, a successful creation breeds true with others of its kind, as with the dreaded dracolisk.

low-light vision; and immunity to sleep, paralysis, and energy of the same type as its breath weapon.

Melee: A half-dragon has two claw attacks and a bite attack. If the base creature can use manufactured weapons, the half-dragon can as well. A new claw or bite attack deals damage as appropriate for the half-dragon's size (see “Natural Attacks” on pages 301–302).

Special Abilities: A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon usable once per day based on the dragon variety (see below). The breath weapon deals 1d6 hit points of damage per racial HD possessed by the half-dragon (Reflex half; DC 10 + 1/2 creature's racial HD + creature's Con modifier).

Dragon Variety Breath Weapon

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +6, Int +2, Cha +2.
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.

Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.

Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.

Skills: A half-dragon with racial Hit Dice has skill points per racial Hit Die equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier. Racial class skills are unchanged from the base creature's.

Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.

Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.

Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.

Creatures with the entropic template live in planes where chaos is paramount. They can be summoned using spells such as summon monster and planar ally. An entropic creature’s CR increases by +1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD.

An entropic creature’s quick and rebuild rules are the same:

Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains spell resistance equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite law 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against lawful foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the entropic creature rests).

Entropic Creature Defenses

Hit Dice Resist Acid and Fire DR
1-4 5 -
5-10 10 5/lawful
11+ 15 10/lawful
Paizo Core

This content is from
the Paizo Core Rules.

did not bother to do the attack die and some stuff of all these.

but you get the idea, its borderline near impossible in theory to beat though.
you'd need anti magic and a way to ground the creature....

[pobbes]

Trinam wrote:

Step one: Tie up troll

Step two: Helm of Opposite Alignment until it sticks.

The troll is no longer within one step of its deity, and as a result loses Earth and Fire domain abilities along with its cleric-y-ness.

Filet as usual.

The above... GENIUS.

Also, a half-fiend half-dragon is zero parts troll.

Finally, to kill the unkillable troll, "Hey, our god wanted us to hurt your god by taking away his clerics, but I'd really rather not fight you seeing as your so amazingly powerful. It would really help us if you could just revoke your god, just for now, and we could just go back to our god and tell him so. Then we can all be cool. Totally cool." Diplomacy DC 40(ish), bluff DC 25(ish)?

[RunebladeX]

killing is so cliche' lol
you just need to defeat him.

polymorph spells posted earlier seem easiest

another easy choice is knock him to negative (unconscious). he would then lose all his spells for the day in pathfinder correct? then teleport his body to the elemental plane of water with no items including his divine focus. upon coming to he would eventually drown and become forever inert and trapped on the plane. He could never rest or regain spells so he's SOL. after so many days of ignoring his diety he should by all means lose his cleric class abilities as well. after a few weeks hunt him down on the elemental plane and put him out of his misery if you wanted.

[HalfOrcHeavyMetal]

I've run this sort of encounter at the PCs, sadisticly I might add, at 10th level. They followed the 'prophecy' to the grotto of legend, passed all the tests and solved all the puzzles, opened the door to find the 'ultimate weapon' ... only to find that the lame Halfling they had pointedly ignored back at the Village was 'the Key' and the 'Ultimate Weapon' was a monster on par with the Tarrasque.

True Neutral Gogirra rampaging around for 5 levels, and the PCs wouldn't swallow their pride and ask him to help (being a level 3 expert, he wasn't much in a fight and a coward too boot!) and instead begged, bribed, dominated and every other trick every Huge and bigger Monster they could find to try and slow down the Weapon to the point it was almost the PCs with their enchanted/befriended/controlled Kaiju against the Weapon ala Final Wars.

The 'flip side' to this is the 'non-threatening' scenario. PCs come across a small, tribble like creature, it's harmless, friendly and falls somewhere between party mascot and walking well-intentioned disaster. PCs keep the little critter for a while, then it wanders off outside the dungeon ... and a few days later the PCs encounter the former 'mascot' has shed it's adorable form and has become a lean, chitinous monstrosity.

PCs cut the monster into pieces ... and fall back in horror as whip-like strands of purple muscle lash out and pull the creature back together. Burn it alive next time, and the blood bubbles and hisses, quickly reconstituting into a new form that oozes away. Threw the 'Satanic Tribble' at the PCs a few times before the panic set in and they threw themselves at the nearest good-aligned temple and buried the altar in gold for a face-to-face talk with the highest-level Angel they could get their hands on to figure out how to kill the damn thing.

One series of Grapple checks and a vat of cheap wine later ... five very scared PCs and one adorable and loving bundle of fluff stagger out of the ruined winery and march back to that dungeon where the temple waits to reconsecrate the exit and stop the monster escaping again.

A monster-type I threw at the PCs a while back was the Fused. Less a monster and more a template in homage to movies such as the Blob (I've never got the reasons behind Fusion as a fetish, btw, losing full control of my own body scares the crap out of me, as I believe the body is the one thing in this life we truly have control over, our castle, kingdom and sanctuary all in one, as it were!) and given that the more creatures the Fused absorbed, the more HD and the more effective it's regeneration became, it behooved the PCs to corral and then contain the Fused until such time as it's component creatures turned upon each other in starvation and desperation.

The Fused:

THE FUSED

Creating a Fused:
The Fused Template can be applied to a minimum of two creatures, up to a maximum of fifty different Base Creatures. All creature types except Golemns, Undead, Elemental Outsiders such as Fire Elementals and Fire Grues, but not Salamanders and Efreeti, and Outsiders with more than 20 HD can be used to create a Fused.

Type: Abberation. All HD a Fused gains becomes Abberation HD. All Saves change to Abberation saves.

HD: Every time a Fused captures/fuses a suitable target using it’s Hideous Touch ability, if the target fails the Fortitude and Will saves, gains HD equal to the target, with the following exceptions.

Dragons and Outsiders: No matter the HD of the Dragon or Outsider‘consumed’ by the Hideous Touch, a Fused only gains a maximum of 10 HD from the Dragon or Outsider. Any HD over that limit is lost.

Oozes: The Fused gains only 1 single HD from the assimilation of a Ooze, but this does not affect how many base creatures a Fused may be made of. Thus, a Fused could have it’s full total of 50 different Base Creatures, but also have assimilated a dozen Oozes as well.

Creatures with Class Levels: The Fused only gains 1 HD for each creature it consumes without a Racial HD. If a Fused used Hideous Touch on a 7th level Elf Warrior, the Fused would assimilate the Elf but would only gain a single HD from the process. The Fused does gain the Physical Ability Scores of the Creatures with Class levels as described in the ‘Abilities’ section.

Initiative: Same as Base Creature with highest initiative, plus any feats or special qualities that one or more Base Creatures may possess.

Speed: 20 feet per round. The Fused’s torturous existence and twisted body limits it’s speed. Even if a Base Creature could fly, the wings are merely ornamental…if they are not already assimilated by the Fused. Fused can gain Burrow and Swim speeds up to 40 feet if one or more Base Creatures possessed such movement options.

Space/Reach: As per size. A Large Fused takes up 10 squares, and advances in size as normal, depending upon the original base creature for being either a Tall or Long creature, but it has reach with it’s tentacles, thus having a Space/Reach of 10/10(20 with tentacles). A Fused is always as large as the largest creature it has absorbed, at the very least. For example, if a Fused is composed of 4 Medium Humanoids, it takes up as much room as an Ogre, 4 squares. If creatures of different sizes are part of the Templated Creature, such as an Young Adult Gold Dragon, an Ogre and an Elf, remember to count only the largest creature as the 'space' of the Fused.

Attacks: 4 Tentacles +1 for every 5 HD dealing 1d8+Str damage (For a Large Fused) that deal Slashing damage and 2 Claws +1 for every 10 HD, dealing 2d8+Str damage (For a Large Fused) that deals Bludgeoning and Piercing damage and 1 Slam Attack per 10 HD, dealing 1d10+Str damage (For a Large Fused) that deals Bludgeoning damage. A Fused uses it’s Claws as it’s primary Natural Weapons, then it’s Tentacles as secondary weapons and it’s Slam only if a target is either helpless or affected by it’s Hideous Touch.

AC: The Fused has a Natural Armor Bonus of 5, increasing by 1 for every 5 HD it gains.

Bonus Feats: The Fused gains Multi-Attack and Improved Multi-Attack as bonus feats.

Special Attacks: Hideous Touch, Maddening Howl, Horror Incarnate, Fragments of Lives.

Special Qualities: Immunity to Mind Affecting Spells, Poison, Disease, Stunning, Polymorphing, Sleep, Paralysis, Rage from Within, Regeneration (5+1 for every 5 HD), Undead Revulsion, Negative Energy Vulnerability, Base Creatures sensory abilities.

Skills: Climb, Jump, Swim, Survival.

Environment: Anywhere, but primarily underground areas.

CR: 5+1 for every 2 Base Creatures assimilated/every 2 HD gained.

Organisation: Always Solitary. In the rare cases where two Fused have met, the creatures are instinctively drawn to each other and fuse with one another, becoming an even greater nightmare of amalgamated life-forms than before.

Abilities: Use Base Creatures, using the best ‘Physical’ scores of each Base Creature and ½ the bonus from the next best Base Creature, rounded down. For example, a Fused has absorbed a Young Adult Gold Dragon and a Ogre. The Fused uses the Strength and Constitution of the Young Adult Dragon, and applies the bonus from the Ogre, the second best Base Creature, to increase the Young Adult Gold Dragon’s Strength and Constitution scores from 31 and 21, respectively, to 33 and 23. If the Fused had also absorbed a 7th level Elf Warrior with a Dexterity of 16, then the Fused would have Physical Scores) Strength 33, Dexterity 16 and Constitution 23. Mental scores are always Int 1, Wis 1 and Cha 1. A Fused is a physical powerhouse and a nightmare for all life to face, but it is barely sentient, wracked by the conflicting and equally tortured minds of the creatures it has consumed.

Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil.

Advancement: total of 100 HD or 50 Base Creatures (including Oozes).

Combat: A Fused generally charges right into combat with reckless fury, unable to understand it’s existence as anything more than a blur of pain and fear. Canny opponents use the Fused’s Undead Revulsion to shield themselves from it’s monstrous physical abilities.

Hideous Touch: On a successful Tentacle attack, the Fused infects a suitable Base Creature with a foul toxin that begins the horrible process of making the creature the newest addition to the nightmare amalgamation. A Base Creature must first succeed on a Fortitude save, DC is 10+Fortitude Bonus of the Fused, as the noxious substance of the Fused seeps into the Base Creature’s very flesh and blood. If this fails, the Base Creature is at risk of becoming part of the Fused on a successful Slam Attack.

The Base Creature must also succeed on a Will Save, DC 11, or be compelled to stop whatever the Base Creature was doing and run towards the Fused, although the Base Creature is aware that the urge is not it’s own and can call out for help as a free action. If the Base Creature reaches the Fused in one round, the two assimilate, the Base Creature being totally absorbed without making a secondary Fortitude Save, and the Fused gains HD depending upon the nature of the Base Creature. If the Base Creature does not reach the Fused in one round, the Base Creature can make another Will Save every round until the Base Creature succeeds or it makes contact with the Fused.

If the Base Creature fails the Fortitude Save but succeeds on the Will Save, the Base Creature must make a second Fortitude Save equal to the first to avoid being absorbed by the Fused when it uses a Slam Attack on the afflicted Base Creature. This affliction can only be cured by receiving Break Enchantment, Heal and Greater Restoration spells while within the area of a Hallowed effect, all spells working against the same Fortitude Save as the Base Creature made on being attacked by the Hideous Touch.

Maddening Howl: Once every 1d4+8 rounds, the Fused trembles mightily and can take no other actions that round except for it’s component Base Creatures to howl, gibber, scream and wail, each voice begging for help, for the enemies to join them in the Fused, and so forth. This infernal din can drive even the hardiest souls to mind-numbing terror. Creatures with less than 10 HD are afflicted by the Panicked status on a DC 10+1 HD the Fused possesses, lasting for 1d4 rounds. Those creatures with 10 or more HD are instead afflicted with the Frightened status on a DC 10+1 HD the Fused possesses, lasting 1d4 rounds.

Horror Incarnate: The Fused is not a perfect amalgamation. Once per hour, or when placed under extraordinary pressure, such as a concentrated assault by determined PCs, the Fused must make one Will Save, using it’s own Will Save, or partially separate into it’s component Base Creatures. For the next 1d3+1 rounds, the Fused dissolves into a puddle of protoplasmic flesh twice the space of it’s normal size, and it’s component Base Creatures appear on it’s space up to a maximum of 40 feet into the air on stalks of mottled flesh.

For the duration of the Horror Incarnate, the Base Creatures tear into each other with natural attacks, unarmed strikes, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities, screaming and wailing like damned souls, trying desperately to destroy the other minds that are irrevocably tangled with their own inside the monstrous shell of the Fused. The Fused’s Fast Healing does not heal any damage it endures under the assault of it’s component Base Creatures, but any suitable creature within strike range of the Component Base Creature had a 1 in 10 chance (1d10) of being assaulted by a maddened Component Base Creature, suffering the effects of the Hideous Touch and possibly being assimilated by the Fused either by a second attack by a Component Base Creature or a Slam Attack from the Fused once it regains control.

Fragments of Lives: Despite the madness of it’s existence and it’s innate beastial nature, the Fused does gain a small portion of knowledge of it’s victims. The Fused gains feats as normal for advancing HD, but also gains a feat from one victim every 5 HD. This feat must not be dependant upon another feat unless the Fused also has the prerequisite feat. Thus, a Fused that absorbed a 10 HD Dragon, a 6 HD Ogre and a 1st Level Orc Barbarian with the Cleave Feat could have the Cleave feat if either the Dragon or Ogre had the Power Attack Feat. The Fused never gains the spellcasting abilities of a Base Creature, but can substitute a Spell-Like or Supernatural ability of a Base Creature for one of it’s Bonus Feats.

Aura-Vision: (SP) A Fused might see prey through the assimilated eyes of it's victims, but it often senses life before it's stolen eyes catch a glimpse of it with Aura-Vision. A Fused gains a unique type of sensory input called 'Aura-Vision', which has the following advantages: Living creatures appear as bright red and yellow lights, while Undead appear as a pulsing blue or green lights. This ability works up to 120 feet, and can penetrate up to ten feet of solid rock or 2 feet of metal, such as Iron or Lead. In no way does Aura-Vision allow the Fused to see in complete darkness, only to detect the distance between itself and a potential target and the nature of the target. For example, a Fused under the effect of a Darkness spell would be blind to the terrain, but not to potential Base Creautres. In effect, the Aura-Vision cannot be dispelled except in areas of anti-magic or null-magic, where Supernatural abilities are canceled out. A Fused that is blinded in some way would not be able to 'see' the terrain, often ramming into walls in vain attempts to get at life-forms on the other side of the wall, able to 'see' the target with Aura-Vision but unable to see the barrier that prevents it from reaching the target.

Undead Revulsion: A Fused will never willingly attack an Undead creature unless provoked, indeed the Fused seems to fear the Undead instinctively and attempts to always move away from Undead of any HD. A Fused takes a -4 Penalty to Attack Rolls against Undead, and if the Fused uses it's Hideous Touch ability on an Undead (being of animal intelligence, it will often do so when cornered) it takes 1d12 Negative Energy Damage (as well as additional damage from their Negative Energy Vulnerability weakness) from the attack, even if the Undead is destroyed by the attack. If there is more Undead HD present than the Fused has HD, the Fused will often attempt to flee, or if unable to do so, the Fused could either start to cower or perhaps fall victim to it's Horror Incarnate ability.

Negative Energy Vulnerability: Fused take half as much again damage from Negative Energy.

[Steelfiredragon]

you know, I did think of a way to destroy the OP's super troll, and the same way would work on my super troll on steroids too.

take several highlevel spellcasters with allied spellcaster a bag of holding, charm monster, or dominate whatever, and disjungtion.

cast spell on troll, order troll into bag.
tie bag after troll enters.

disenchant or otherwise distroy bag with super troll inside

[BigNorseWolf]

There's a quote from deadlands: If you stat it, they will kill it.

[JohnLocke]

A katana could kill it with one slash. Deadliest weapon known to the multiverse.

No need to thank me! You're welcome :-)