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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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The Gnome favored class option for Oracle states:
Oracle: Treat the gnome’s level as +1/2 higher for the purpose of determining the effects of the oracle’s curse ability.
and for the Haunted curse:
Haunted: Malevolent spirits follow you wherever you go, causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences (such as unexpected breezes, small objects moving on their own, and faint noises). Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. Add mage hand and ghost sound to your list of spells known. At 5th level, add levitate and minor image to your list of spells known. At 10th level, add telekinesis to your list of spells known. At 15th level, add reverse gravity to your list of spells known.
My question is does this combination allow you to cast levitate and minor image at 4th level, telekinesis at 7th level and reverse gravity at 10th?
If yes would I just cast Reverse Gravity as a 10th level caster?
What spell level would it be?
If this is not the case is it just pointless to take the alternate favored class option as a gnome for the Haunted curse?
-Venom
You're right, and you'd cast the spell as a 10th level caster. The spell level doesn't change, so you may have it on your list and not be able to cast it depending on spell level. So yeah, it's basically a waste to have it.
It says that you add it to your list of spells known, not add it to your spell list.
Since Reverse Gravity is a 7th level spell would I not then be able to cast it till 14th level?
That would make the Gnomes favored class option for the Haunted Curse completely useless.
You can't cast it until you have slots to cast it with - which you don't gain until 14th level. Even if you somehow have bonus 7th level slots due to a high ability score, they don't apply until 14th level either.
So, no, it isn't worth anything after getting Levitation one level earlier.
Hooray for the extra HP's then!
Thanks Guys
It's not useless if you plan to multi-class. :)
Kyle Baird wrote: It's not useless if you plan to multi-class. :) That's right, you could go with a prestige class like EK or DD or LM and still get your haunted bonus spell when you get able to cast it. Of course, you still wouldn't get your extra revelations or class benefits, but that one you would still get.
Venomblade wrote: The Gnome favored class option for Oracle states:
Oracle: Treat the gnome’s level as +1/2 higher for the purpose of determining the effects of the oracle’s curse ability.
and for the Haunted curse:
Haunted: Malevolent spirits follow you wherever you go, causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences (such as unexpected breezes, small objects moving on their own, and faint noises). Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. Add mage hand and ghost sound to your list of spells known. At 5th level, add levitate and minor image to your list of spells known. At 10th level, add telekinesis to your list of spells known. At 15th level, add reverse gravity to your list of spells known.
My question is does this combination allow you to cast levitate and minor image at 4th level, telekinesis at 7th level and reverse gravity at 10th?
If yes would I just cast Reverse Gravity as a 10th level caster?
What spell level would it be?
If this is not the case is it just pointless to take the alternate favored class option as a gnome for the Haunted curse?
-Venom
Sorry to necromance this 2010 thread, but there aren't any others (edit: on Paizo) that I could find that dealt more recently with this question. To answer your question, you would cast Levitate and Minor Image from 2nd level spell slots at Oracle level 4, Telekinesis from a 3rd level spell slot at Oracle level 7, and Reverse Gravity from a 5th level spell slot at Oracle level 10 - all based on getting the Gnome's +1/2 alternative favored class option for Haunted Oracles.
If you need backup for this position, see the following for the Haunted Curse:
At 5th level, add levitate and minor image to your list of spells known.
At 10th level, add telekinesis to your list of spells known.
At 15th level, add reverse gravity to your list of spells known.
These spells aren't being added to your potential spell list for you to choose from - they're automatically being added to your spells known, exactly like the cure (or inflict, player's choice at character creation) spells that all Oracles automatically know (at each even level).
Given that the Gnome Oracle Favored Class bonus states "Treat the gnome’s level as +1/2 higher for the purpose of determining the effects of the oracle’s curse ability," then yes, for these 4 specific spells, you get them when your Oracle qualifies, and use the highest existing spell slot to cast them when you first qualify to do so.
The fact that Reverse Gravity is a Druid 8 or Sorcerer/Wizard 7 spell is nice, but you're not a Druid or a Sorcerer/Wizard, you're a haunted Gnome Oracle with a specific exemption to these four spells' normal levels. Acting like Paizo designers didn't mean this is obtuse when they clearly laid out the benefits for this alternative class feature.
Fat chuck, that is extremely incorrect information. I'm so glad you resurrected the thread to tell us.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Fat chuck, that is extremely incorrect information. I'm so glad you resurrected the thread to tell us. OK, I'll be glad to be wrong if someone, anyone, will document it using something besides an opinion. Please link to the official errata or a Paizo employee's ruling since the +1/2 level Haunted bonus applies not only to Gnome Oracles, but also Tengu Oracles. Link for documentation: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle
You can be, and are, wrong without an FAQ, you just won't admit it without that.
Unfortunately, the gnome favored class bonus doesn't do anything for a haunted oracle because your curse never changes. If he was blackened or wasting it might be a nice mechanical benefit worth taking.
There is certainly an FAQ on gaining spells not from your class spell list, but I'm not going to bother finding it because I'm sure you are the only person who thinks a level 10 oracle who only has 5th level spell slots should be able to cast a level 7 wizard spell, just because they traded away some combination of 10 HP and skill points.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: You can be, and are, wrong without an FAQ, you just won't admit it without that.
Unfortunately, the gnome favored class bonus doesn't do anything for a haunted oracle because your curse never change. If he was blackened or wasting it might be a nice mechanical benefit worth taking.
There is certainly an FAQ on gaining spells not from your class spell list, but I'm not going to bother finding it because I'm sure you are the only person who thinks a level 10 oracle who only has 5th level spell slots should be able to cast a level 7 wizard spell, just because they traded away some combination of 10 HP and skill points.
OK, let's break this down:
You personally cited Wasting as a benefit. Let's look at its benefits:
At 5th level, you are immune to the sickened condition (but not nauseated).
At 10th level, you gain immunity to disease.
At 15th level, you are immune to the nauseated condition.
So, a Gnome Wasting Oracle with the +1/2 favored class option gets immunity to nausea at level 10, despite the fact that Wasting never changes (just like Haunted). Wasting is a flat curse from levels 1-20 which grant "a –4 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks, except for Intimidate. You gain a +4 competence bonus on saves made against disease."
Wasting grants scaling bonuses exactly like Haunted does, albeit different ones.
As for gaining spells not on your spell list, I didn't write the Haunted bonus effects, Paizo did, and I don't think they could have been more explicit:
At 5th level, add levitate and minor image to your list of spells known.
At 10th level, add telekinesis to your list of spells known.
At 15th level, add reverse gravity to your list of spells known.
Just because someone may want to nerf or house rule a given curse's benefits doesn't mean Paizo does.
I'd be glad to hit FAQ on a post and get an answer.
Wasting's benefits aren't specific spells added to your spells known. Spells have particular levels. If your class cannot normally cast that spell but you gain access to it, it is for you a spell of the same level it is for the class whose list it came from. My life oracle technically has mass cure critical wounds on her list of spells known. That doesn't mean she can cast it now because she only has 2nd level spell slots at level 5.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I'd be glad to hit FAQ on a post and get an answer.
Wasting's benefits aren't specific spells added to your spells known. Spells have particular levels. If your class cannot normally cast that spell but you gain access to it, it is for you a spell of the same level it is for the class whose list it came from. My life oracle technically has mass cure critical wounds on her list of spells known. That doesn't mean she can cast it now because she only has 2nd level spell slots at level 5.
Replies in context...
"I'd be glad to hit FAQ on a post and get an answer."
That would be awesome, since every Oracle Curse grants escalating benefits that are subject to the Gnome/Tengu +1/2 level alternative favored class option.
"Wasting's benefits aren't specific spells added to your spells known. Spells have particular levels."
No argument, agreed. Unfortunately, Paizo didn't list the actual spell slots these 4 spells (for Haunted) hit, and it would have helped a lot if they did. FYI, if you check out the various curses at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses, you'll see that the Blackened, Haunted, and Wolfscarred Face all have unslotted, bonus spells known, so a ruling on Haunted would also apply to those since they share the same mechanic.
"If your class cannot normally cast that spell but you gain access to it, it is for you a spell of the same level it is for the class whose list it came from."
And even if I completely agree with you, there'd still be conflict because Reverse Gravity is a Druid 8, Sorcerer/Wizard 7 spell. Do Haunted Oracles get it at level 14 or 16, when they hit level 7 or 8 spell slots known? For a home game, you can house rule it, but what if you're playing a PF Society game at Gen Con or Paizo Con? It would be nice to know which specific spell slots the Curse spells use so that you're not using an illegal character in organized play.
Additionally, to add to the confusion, you have classes like the Summoner which get some marquee arcane spells 2-3 levels before the Wizard/Sorcerer do. I'm not saying that applies across the board, but just noting the Paizo-written precedent for some classes to get spells way before the canonical spell classes.
There's also an FAQ about where a spell comes from. If it is on the wizard spell list, it is a wizard spell. Then you go to cleric and Druid, then other classes. So in this case, for an oracle, it would be a 7th level spell that they would be able to cast at level 14 assuming they used 2 favored class bonuses to advance their curse.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: There's also an FAQ about where a spell comes from. If it is on the wizard spell list, it is a wizard spell. Then you go to cleric and Druid, then other classes. So in this case, for an oracle, it would be a 7th level spell that they would be able to cast at level 14 assuming they used 2 favored class bonuses to advance their curse. As a side note, there was a heated thread that dealt with the Aasimar's +1/2 level Favored Class Bonus here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc3v?Does-Elf-or-Aasimar-favored-class-Oracle
And it didn't deal with spells known at all. Yes, a lot of people think it's overpowered, but for the sake of Official Pathfinder Society play, it's legal.
BTW, where is the post for clarification on the Gnome Oracle's Haunted curse on the FAQ? Asking so that I can follow it.
In the meantime, I'm going to test my hypothesis that Haunted Oracles can cast Reverse Gravity as a 5th level spell at level 10 this week at a local con in Pathfinder Society. We'll see what the reaction is. :-)
The problem is, haunted tells you what level you can add, the spell to your list of spells known. But i doesnt tell you the spell slot used. The assumption (correctly) is that its a 5th level spell. However, Oracle curse doesnt say 'you can add X as X level spell'
What this means in terms of the Haunted Gnome oracle is that, All that happens is you add The spells to your list of spells known before you can cast them. Because at no point does the Haunted curse tell you you get telikenis as a 5th level spell. This then makes it impossible to for you to use your favoured class bonus to cast it earlier.
Its different from some of the other curses, but nothing can be done.
Mojorat wrote: The problem is, haunted tells you what level you can add, the spell to your list of spells known. But i doesnt tell you the spell slot used. The assumption (correctly) is that its a 5th level spell. However, Oracle curse doesnt say 'you can add X as X level spell'
What this means in terms of the Haunted Gnome oracle is that, All that happens is you add The spells to your list of spells known before you can cast them. Because at no point does the Haunted curse tell you you get telikenis as a 5th level spell. This then makes it impossible to for you to use your favoured class bonus to cast it earlier.
Its different from some of the other curses, but nothing can be done.
^ This.
Adding the spells to your list before you're able to cast them seems like the most elegant solution.
Chris P. Bacon wrote: Mojorat wrote: The problem is, haunted tells you what level you can add, the spell to your list of spells known. But i doesnt tell you the spell slot used. The assumption (correctly) is that its a 5th level spell. However, Oracle curse doesnt say 'you can add X as X level spell'
What this means in terms of the Haunted Gnome oracle is that, All that happens is you add The spells to your list of spells known before you can cast them. Because at no point does the Haunted curse tell you you get telikenis as a 5th level spell. This then makes it impossible to for you to use your favoured class bonus to cast it earlier.
Its different from some of the other curses, but nothing can be done.
^ This.
Adding the spells to your list before you're able to cast them seems like the most elegant solution. And this is why Paizo needs to cough up a solution on Favored Class Bonuses dealing with spells (not just the Oracle Haunted curse).
"Adding the spells to your list before you're able to cast them seems like the most elegant solution" with the singular point that Paizo didn't say "Add X spell to your spell list," they said "Add X to your list of spells known."
Because they wrote it that way, it means two things. 1, you don't have expend a Known Spell slot at level-up to use them like you normally do for something like Dispel Magic, and 2, you know it when you qualify for it by taking the Favored Class Bonus 10 times in 10 levels, making your Haunted curse equivalent to level 15, and thus using a level 5 slot for Reverse Gravity.
I agree that your solution is elegant for a house rule, but a lot of problems persist by singling out the Haunted Oracle curse for this nerf. First, if you're running the game in your home, just remember to give a head's up to all players who use the various Oracle +1/2 Favored Class Bonuses that they do not apply. Second, for the purposes of official Pathfinder Society play where house rules aren't used, if this Favored Class Bonus isn't recognized, then no +1/2 Favored Class Bonuses should be recognized. Picking & choosing which ones are OK and which aren't is Chaotic Evil if a given player has spend 6-12 months using a +1/2 FCB and wants to use it at Gen Con, Paizo Con, or a local con.
I guess the big issue here isn't that we disagree (imagine that, on an RPG rules board!) or that things can be Rule 0'd, but when you take a character with the +1/2 FCB for 8-12 levels and are unsure of whether you can use it or not in organized play. That's why, whether your argument prevails or mine does, I want Paizo to come out and errata it so that players can plan accordingly.
I thought I remember a thread at some point where a designer clarified that you get a bonus spell from sorcerer bloodlines or oracle mysteries at the highest spell level you can cast when you acquire the spell, but I cannot for the life of me find that thread. I would apply the same rule to the haunted curse for the same reason. (Of course, since I can't find that thread nor a FAQ to the effect, caveat emptor.)
APG FAQ wrote: Sorcerer: Is the aquatic sorcerer bloodline (page 136) supposed to get geyser as a bonus spell at sorcerer level 9, even though that’s normally a 5th-level sorcerer/wizard spell and unavailable to sorcerers before caster level 10?
Yes, and the sorcerer learns it as a 4th-level spell. Note that geyser is also a 4th-level druid spell (available at character level 7), so the aquatic sorcerer gaining it at character level 9 as a 4th-level arcane spell isn’t too powerful.
As silly as it seems, I gotta go with fatchuck on this one. It seems that when a spontaneous caster gains a bonus spell known from a class feature, they also gain the ability to cast it. So yes, a gnome haunted oracle 10 could cast reverse gravity as a 5th-level spell.
That said...
fatchuck wrote: Second, for the purposes of official Pathfinder Society play where house rules aren't used, if this Favored Class Bonus isn't recognized, then no +1/2 Favored Class Bonuses should be recognized. Picking & choosing which ones are OK and which aren't is Chaotic Evil if a given player has spend 6-12 months using a +1/2 FCB and wants to use it at Gen Con, Paizo Con, or a local con. Take it down a notch. Pathfinder is a game with an uncountable number of variable elements, and not all of them play nicely together. Even if the combo happens to work here, avoiding anti-synergy is not an argument for legality.
The human monk favored class bonus buffs the ki pool, useless for the martial artist archetype which never gains one. The dwarf druid FCB buffs domain powers, useless for a druid with an animal companion. The half-orc alchemist FCB buffs bomb damage, useless for the vivisectionist archetype which doesn't get bombs. The are many more examples.
GMs should be auditing their PCs and keeping an eye out for clashes like these, but ultimately it's the players' responsibility to make sure their characters works like they want them to. If someone shows up at your PFS table with a character built around an illegal combo, setting them straight isn't Chaotic Evil--it's Lawful Neutral.
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