It is :D... at a price. Plus a bit more.Nice!
I was thinking something a bit cheaper though, as an intro product...
Aggressively priced to bring the pricepoint low enough for people to dip their toe in and then pay for the full price game.A bit like a demo version of a game :p
Well if one drops the hard plastic minis to thinner tokens, cardboard terrain to one or two foldout mats, that should help drop materials cost greatly. I was also taking your "rolled in gold" comment a bit literally, on price :P.
Well I guess you could run two sets...
One an 'intro' type deal with the paper minis etc, and the other a standalone boxed game deriving from the pathfinder rules with plastic minis - a Pathfinder HeroQuest :)
What I always liked about this game is that to start all you have to do is unfold the board. Pick a character, write down a name, and have the GM lead the way. The whole thing builds itself as you play
There's a reason that game goes for hundred of dollars now.
Ha! It's been a while since I have sat down for a game of Hero's Quest! Good times.
Another thing that would be highly useful for a starter set/intro game: a full set of stat pages all in one place for all the familiars, even the newer ones like the witch's fox. Like was done in the back of the 2nd printing of the 3.0 PHB, which was a reprint from Dragon. Slip that into the back of the mini-bestiary and it would be used as a reference sheet at almost all tables.
I'd like it if you actually have some of the character creation options at least. I think having pre-generated character cuts out an important step of the game. Maybe have a class with a set of optional stats as a suggestion but also allow to roll their own. Let them choose their race and maybe cutting back on some of the abilities.
I think having it go to level 10 or so so they can get a feel for the game. Give them tips on running as well as playing.
Limit the number of Feats, Spells, etc.
Provide a starter adventure or two and maybe ideas for other adventure with sample encounters and monsters but allow them to actually make the adventures later.
When is it due? any dates yet?Markus
We haven't announced any dates, but this is a critical project and very important to us.
When is it due? any dates yet?MarkusWe haven't announced any dates, but this is a critical project and very important to us.
Then while I have your eyes in this thread...
What follows is armchair management, I know. I apologize, but here's how I would want the job done, if I were Lisa for a day.
I already mentioned this but it bears repeating: I think you ought to have a non-designer in charge of the testing — or have one designer who is a non-contributor managing the testing, but that's less good.
My opinion comes from software usability testing, but I think there's a lot of overlap in game design. In software, we just don't let designers and developers assess the usability issues of their product (although they should try as a part of their procedure). They have blind spots. They design for their own brain, and tend to confirm their own biases.
It's critically important that a product for completely new users should be tested on completely new users. And that testing should be conducted by someone who does not have a "horse in the race" so to speak.
If it's anything like software, I would expect some discomfort to occur when the devs aren't allowed to "direct" the testing, or to explain their rationale to the test subjects. But user confusion speaks for itself. The less that the test team knows about "why" things ended up the way they are, the better. They need a standpoint of complete non-attachment to the design, which is almost impossible to have if you actually wrote any of the rules.
Blah blah blah... I just had to get it off much chest. Thanks for enduring that.
We're going to involve not only the non-gamers at Paizo, but also external playtesters who aren't familiar with gaming. We don't want to run into a problem like "the book doesn't say how we open a door." :)
We're going to involve not only the non-gamers at Paizo, but also external playtesters who aren't familiar with gaming. We don't want to run into a problem like "the book doesn't say how we open a door." :)
What about the stairs, Sean? The stairs are important too!
One thing to also include would be a couple pages like in the 1st edition DMG that show characters interacting with a dungeon and also shows the players as being intelligent and literate--the 1st edition DMG specifically has the player referencing business about Shakespeare and the "sea change" when they find the limed-over skeleton of the abbot. Every redo I've read since then has been dumbed down to the point of being insulting.
We don't want to run into a problem like "the book doesn't say how we open a door." :)
and stat increases from level...
and attack action is special (but all that stuff about crits and ranged actually applies to all attacks)this sounds like a good approach though... hopefully to be used on all future crunch.
I'm sure this has been said already in this thread; but the "base classes" ought to be Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and SORCERER, not Wizard.
Your looking for pick-up-and-play concepts... Sorcerer has that, the Wizard is needlessly more complex for an introductory audience.
Some conceptual ideas to consider for each class:
Fighter:
Turn Feats into "Abilities". Give them things like Improved Trip/Sunder or whatever; but just call them "Trip/Sunder". Make the Feat a requirement to even do the maneuver. Don't bother with "abstraction" style feats like "Weapon Focus" or other such feats which involve mechanical manipulation. Players don't want to see +1 here and -1 there as an "ability" on an introductory level.
Cleric
Spells should be simplified into obvious effects. Avoid blatant "Buff" spells where possible. Again; less +1/-1 more "this does something".
Avoid "gamey terms" like "Channel Positive Energy". I'd say this is a criticism of the base game, but were all used to it. New players don't "Speak the Lingo". You might say it's time for them to learn in an introductory sense; but I disagree with that. It's a textual "barrier of entry".
Rogue
The Rogue can do stuff other characters can't. Again; follow the theme of "If you have this ability; you can do this, if you don't, you can't" in a similar theme to the fighter. The Rogue CAN stealth. The Rogue CAN find and disarm traps. Simplify the presentation of Sneak Attack signifigantly.
Sorcerer
Not much to say here. Sorcerers do magic stuff. Make it cool. That's all.
Just some suggestions. Would like to see this idea flourish.
-Idle
I would love to see a basic version of Pathfinder. My son (7) and nephew (10) are curious about my bi-weekly games and have enthusiastically watched the 80's D&D cartoon on DVD.
The full rule-set is too cumbersome and complex for younger players to jump right in.
I echo the ideas I have seen here of 4 basic classes, 4 standard races, limited equipment options, simplified combat rules (no AoOs or combat maneuvers), reduced or eliminated feats, simplified skills, and reduced spell options.
Microlight d20 has the right core idea, but I would want to keep the 6 basic stats (rather than 3 that Microlight uses) and the same basic combat/save/skill/spell systems used by Pathfinder/3.5.
One last request - Could this be out by Christmas of 2011?
One last request - Could this be out by Christmas of 2011?
My guess is probably as it is already being designed.
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I was at Toy Fair this past week, and Alliance had an empty Pathfinder box set with unfinished looking packaging sitting on their display shelves. None of the two or three people with whom I talked had any idea what the particular box was supposed to be advertising. Was that an early look at what we might expect this product to look like?
One part E6, one part Microlite20, one part Pathfinder, one part BECMI, one part like DCC, stir well, win!
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One part E6, one part Microlite20, one part Pathfinder, one part BECMI, one part like DCC, stir well, win!
Holy crap on a cracker! You just described my perfect game! Though DCC might come closer on its own than you realize.
One part E6, one part Microlite20, one part Pathfinder, one part BECMI, one part like DCC, stir well, win!Holy crap on a cracker! You just described my perfect game! Though DCC might come closer on its own than you realize.
Maybe. So far I see a lot of vague talk and not a lot of specifics out of Goodman so I'm reserving judgment. I'll happily eat my words if they deliver the planned "mid-2011" playtest and Nov 11 ship date and it rocks. But their list of vague talk is good! :-)
Well, I'm hoping there's as little variation from the Pathfinder rules as possible.
And +1 to the sorcerer idea - that's one of the first things I thought of as well. And that's one of the reasons my NPCs are far more often sorcerers than wizards. And only give one bloodline (*maybe* two).
In general, I'm thinking that keeping the levels down to 1-3 (or even 1-2), choosing the classes carefully, and choosing the monsters carefully also avoids a lot of rules.
If you do that you can avoid all sorts of stuff - like damage/energy/spell resistance, poison, disease, etc. The more special abilities the intro set dodges, the smaller it is (and thereby less expensive).
The one thing I can see happening if it's successful is perhaps having a "deluxe" intro set.
After all, I think a $19.95 price point will hit the lower market, but there's a fair number of people that will shell out $29.95 or $39.95 for a somewhat larger, nicer set.
On the down side, good luck finding Heroscape at Toys 'R Us any more. I think that says something, too.
This is just some number crunching I did based on the most common requests, some ideas I had, and taking into consideration the cost ramifications that Vic has mentioned. Also for full disclosure I should say I work for a printing company and have a pretty good idea of what a high volume customer like Paizo should be paying for these prints (now, this is only printing cost and certainly doesn't reflect the production dollars that would go into developing the digital originals.)
My wishlist for pathfinder intro game:
1) 96pg. Basic Rules Document. Stats, Races (Human, Elf, Halfing, and a 4th option), Classes lvls 1-5 (Fighter, Wiz, Cleric, Rouge), Skills (abbreviated list please), Feats (again with the limited list), Scaled back equipment guide, basic combat rules (no 5ft shift, no AoO, no combat maneuvers of any kind), Round out with a sample spell list and rules for magic.
I should say I fully understand that getting all of this into a 96 pg document could be tricky if not down right impossible. Probably stuff like "dispel magic" and special little used rules like counterspelling should be completely left out. I am using the 96 pg format because paizo already supports a document this size and it gives me a pricing reference.
2) 36 page module a la crypt of the everflame. Remove mentors and 13 class options section and add a small bestiary upto cr 7 for further adventures in the area.
3) two full color flip mats (crypt of the everflame style dungeon map, and a en-route encounters map similar to the forest setting flip mat.)
4) total of 13 unpainted (monocolor) plastic minis. 4 player classes and 9 baddies (again based on crypt of the everflame 3 orcs, 5 skeleton {use over for zombies and bloody skeletons} and a bbeg)
5) 2 basic monocolor dice polysets.
Cost projections (again, just printing and manufacturing, not development)
96 page perfect bind - $6
36 page staple bind - $2
2x 24x30 laminated full color posters - $4 ($2 ea.)
13x unpainted plastic minis 25mm scale - $6.5 ($.50 ea.)
2x 7 piece polyset dice monocolor - $4 ($2 ea.)
Attractive Packaging - $2
$24.50 cost to manufacture. Base the run quantity of $6 development payback per unit sold.
Wholesale $40 - roughly %25 paizo profit margin
Retail $49.99
At the very least this is 6-8 hours of fun for 5 people. Way better value than a trip to the movies. For people who get the rpg bite from the game there are enough rules to support up to 5th level play.
Not a bad package, but I reckon you'd almost want the product dropped to a minimal profit point, as simply put, it is the loss leader that drags more customers to your game.
I dont think too many parents would be keen on dropping a pile of extra cash on full blown product after dumping a $50 on a kit for Christmas.
Ya know, I remember they had a 2nd Ed 'lite' that was actually GIVEN away way back when.
Not a bad package, but I reckon you'd almost want the product dropped to a minimal profit point, as simply put, it is the loss leader that drags more customers to your game.
I dont think too many parents would be keen on dropping a pile of extra cash on full blown product after dumping a $50 on a kit for Christmas.
Ya know, I remember they had a 2nd Ed 'lite' that was actually GIVEN away way back when.
That is a good point, but expansion packs could also be released, just the module and flip mats for $20 retail or so. Although, at that point they would be in strong competition with the gamemastery and regular module lines. Enough to possibly see a cut in sales.
Maybe find a way to make the flip mats less-than compatible with regular play? The modules would already be slightly off because of the abbreviated combat and magic rules.
I would think that Dragon Age's $30 set is the price to match. As much as we want plastic minis, they are impossible to do without the scale of someplace like Hasbro.
I would expect a 16 page module like they use for free rpg day is also a more likely tie in. Maybe two 64 page booklets (one for players, one for GMs) is more reasonable.
A sheet of durable cardboard tokens for the PCs and monsters should be suitable. It would help cut costs and reduce the package size. You could even use spare sprue space for furniture tokens (chests, traps, fires).
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I would include a pregenerated character for each race/class to give them an idea, but allow for creation as well. Have the characters be 1-6. To allow the players a few new abilities/powers. Make the wizard a universalist with the choice of 2-3 familiars, the cleric with a selection of 3-4 domains with 4th/6th level powers, and let the fighter and rogue pick a few talents and feats, but hardwire some as well. Won't be hard to design an adventure with encounters to showcase the important abilities of each class.
I would like to see a board rather than a flipmat. The board should be able to be folded into quarters. One side should show a map/location. The other side should show 3-4 locations. That way the board could be folded to show only what is needed. Cardboard tokens for the characters, NPCs, and a group token for the adventure map.
quarter | quarter
---------------------
quarter | quarter
Side 1:
Long map for adventure
-----------------------
location | location
Side 2:
final adventure location or 2 locations
-----------------------
location | location
Maybe include 1 double sided Game Mastery tile to introduce players to that as well. With dotted space on the map for placement. And 4 Game Mastery Cards with one magical item per character.
I want to do this now. Where can a get a board printed to order? I would hate to have to cover an existing board I have. I already make my own cards, tiles and tokens...
EDIT: GM Tile can cover the first floor plan of a building printed on the board and the reverse side would be the second floor.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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A sheet of durable cardboard tokens for the PCs and monsters should be suitable. It would help cut costs and reduce the package size. You could even use spare sprue space for furniture tokens (chests, traps, fires).
I like the idea for the furniture tokens a bunch. Can't forget a chair, to showcase the improvised weapon rule...
This is just some number crunching I did ...
Cost projections (again, just printing and manufacturing, not development)
96 page perfect bind - $6
36 page staple bind - $2
2x 24x30 laminated full color posters - $4 ($2 ea.)
13x unpainted plastic minis 25mm scale - $6.5 ($.50 ea.)
2x 7 piece polyset dice monocolor - $4 ($2 ea.)
Attractive Packaging - $2
Okay ... except that this puts the MSRP at $49.99.
Backing this out, this means we're looking for a cost of perhaps $10-$12 to hit a $20 MSRP.
So, let's go with no minis, unlaminated posters, and just one die set:
96 page perfect bind - $6
36 page staple bind - $2
24x30 non-laminated full color poster - $1
Cardstock minis and bases - $2
7 piece polyset dice monocolor - $2
Attractive Packaging - $2
Now we're looking at $15 manufacturing cost. Not quite there, but if we reduce the two books slightly and/or my guess about the minis is wrong, we're even better off and might reach $12.
To reduce the book size, of course, we need to reduce the rule scope, but lowering the level cap to 2 or 3 will reduce the rule set markedly - a level 3 cleric only has 2nd level spells, and a level 3 sorcerer still only has 1st level spells. And if it's kept to level 2, then we're only dealing with 1st level spells, period, plus omitting abilities that show up at 3rd level (armor training, bloodline power, trap sense, etc.)
So I really don't see any need to bowdlerize the rules to make it fit; I'm thinking just reducing the levels could be sufficient.
Consider:
10/576 pages are races - make it 2
56/576 pages are classes - make it 6
150/576 pages are spells - make it 10
96/576 pages are magic items - make it 4
Omit prestige classes, gamemastering, NPCs - that's 44 pages.
That accounts for 356 pages of the rulebook, leaving 220 pages. Pare that down to 42 pages, and you've got a 64 page rulebook that doesn't change any rules, and in my estimation would only be $4 instead of $6.
Anyways, this heartens me.
Now, the other thing that the Paizo folks could do is call up Steve Jackson (of Sorcery! and Fighting Fantasy fame) and work with him to create a set of Pathfinder choose-your-own-adventure books. That would give them an in at the bookstores, and if they worked with SBS (Scholastic Book Services) to get them into the schools, they might even be able to ride a bit of the Harry Potter wave.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Now, the other thing that the Paizo folks could do is call up Steve Jackson (of Sorcery! and Fighting Fantasy fame) and work with him to create a set of Pathfinder choose-your-own-adventure books. That would give them an in at the bookstores, and if they worked with SBS (Scholastic Book Services) to get them into the schools, they might even be able to ride a bit of the Harry Potter wave.
I have wanted real fantasy choose your adventures for a long time. Make it about 300 pages and about 10-20 pages before a choice must be made. Maybe 3-4 endings.
I did a html story site back in high school that tracked what you equipment you received as you went through to enable/disable available choices.
Retail $49.99
too high for the intended purpose.
I expect they're shooting for $20, or $30 at most. First, this product is almost certainly a loss-leader. Second, they can't afford to be $50 when the red box is $20. If they release the intro product at the same MSRP as the CRB, I'll eat my hat.
Okay ... except that this puts the MSRP at $49.99.
Backing this out, this means we're looking for a cost of perhaps $10-$12 to hit a $20 MSRP.
So, let's go with no minis, unlaminated posters, and just one die set:
96 page perfect bind - $6
36 page staple bind - $2
24x30 non-laminated full color poster - $1
Cardstock minis and bases - $2
7 piece polyset dice monocolor - $2
Attractive Packaging - $2Now we're looking at $15 manufacturing cost.
I'd guess this is much closer to what Paizo is shooting for.
I'd also add that they probably aren't looking for much profit from this product -- they may even be willing to take a loss.
$24.50 cost to manufacture. Base the run quantity of $6 development payback per unit sold.
Wholesale $40 - roughly %25 paizo profit margin
Umm... the gaming industry is a three-tier system: The publisher, the distributor, and the retailer. At each tier transition there's generally a 100% markup (at least, that was the case when my team crunched the numbers at Wizards of the Coast).
So a module that the retailer sells for $14 cost him $7 from the distributor, and the distributor bought it for $3.50 from the publisher, and the publisher paid $1.75 to make it.
Plugging in numbers that you gave, that means $24.50 to manufacture means Paizo would sell that to distributors for $49, distributors would sell it to retailers for $98, and retailers would have to sell it for $196.
Even if I'm misinterpreting what numbers you mean, that would be Paizo selling it to distributors for $24.50, distributors selling it to retailers for $49, and retailers selling it for $98.
Working it backwards for a $50 product, the retailer pays about $25, the distributor pays about $12.50, and the publisher pays about $6.25 to have it made. That means component costs have to be really, really low... especially for a box set which (1) you're also charged for the box, and (2) you're also charged for assembling and collating the components in the box. So the cost of the things IN the box (books, dice, etc.) is even more closely scrutinized.
See also: Sean's rant in response to the old argument "RPGs Are Too Expensive!"
Made a lot of assumptions.
I'd just like to follow up Sean by saying: there are a lot of assumptions about price and margins in these posts. Many of them are not correct. I can't go into detail, as that's pretty highly confidential information.
Though I will say that we have a pretty good idea both of what we want to go into the Intro Set and what we want it priced at.
$24.50 cost to manufacture. Base the run quantity of $6 development payback per unit sold.
Wholesale $40 - roughly %25 paizo profit marginUmm... the gaming industry is a three-tier system: The publisher, the distributor, and the retailer. At each tier transition there's generally a 100% markup (at least, that was the case when my team crunched the numbers at Wizards of the Coast).
So a module that the retailer sells for $14 cost him $7 from the distributor, and the distributor bought it for $3.50 from the publisher, and the publisher paid $1.75 to make it.
Plugging in numbers that you gave, that means $24.50 to manufacture means Paizo would sell that to distributors for $49, distributors would sell it to retailers for $98, and retailers would have to sell it for $196.
Even if I'm misinterpreting what numbers you mean, that would be Paizo selling it to distributors for $24.50, distributors selling it to retailers for $49, and retailers selling it for $98.
Working it backwards for a $50 product, the retailer pays about $25, the distributor pays about $12.50, and the publisher pays about $6.25 to have it made. That means component costs have to be really, really low... especially for a box set which (1) you're also charged for the box, and (2) you're also charged for assembling and collating the components in the box. So the cost of the things IN the box (books, dice, etc.) is even more closely scrutinized.
See also: Sean's rant in response to the old argument "RPGs Are Too Expensive!"
Sean, let me first say after reading your rant link that you guys are way underpaid. :) Hopefully in the subsequent 11 or so years since your post you have rallied for some better wages; especially considering living in SEA/TAC area.
One thing that stands out to me is that a lot of people are looking to a $20 price range, but AP's are $20 retail. So I think a "boxed" product must be expected to run for more than that. This is just a reasonable expectation on the part on the consumer.
I guessed a $6 R&D cost per unit, but I'll double your estimated cost to $.50. This would make paizo's cost roughly $25.
I didn't imagine that the target distribution for this particular product to be the same as for many of your other products. I thought that you would be marketing this in a more bigbox retail / streamlined fashion. Retailers like B&N, Wal-mart, Target have their own vast logistical systems designed to reduce the third-party distributor cost. Companies like these routinely take drop-ship product directly from the printer/manufacture in order to cut the shipping costs to go home to the parent company first.
These companies also operate on razor thin margins and will expect the parent company to share in those cost savings. Based on your suggested r&d costs, I would put sales to a big box retailer around $30 to $33 each, and they would retail for about $40.
I think $40 is a fabulous price for this type of product and still well inline with other products (ie - return to castle ravenloft board game).
I personally would probably be willing to pay as much as $60 for a set like this from my FLGS, but if I were to see it at a major bigbox retailer (and knowing that the print run was probably much higher than for a product I may find at my FLGS) I would expect about $50 and be thrilled to see it for $40.
$24.50 cost to manufacture. Base the run quantity of $6 development payback per unit sold.
Wholesale $40 - roughly %25 paizo profit marginUmm... the gaming industry is a three-tier system: The publisher, the distributor, and the retailer. At each tier transition there's generally a 100% markup (at least, that was the case when my team crunched the numbers at Wizards of the Coast).
So a module that the retailer sells for $14 cost him $7 from the distributor, and the distributor bought it for $3.50 from the publisher, and the publisher paid $1.75 to make it.
Plugging in numbers that you gave, that means $24.50 to manufacture means Paizo would sell that to distributors for $49, distributors would sell it to retailers for $98, and retailers would have to sell it for $196.
Even if I'm misinterpreting what numbers you mean, that would be Paizo selling it to distributors for $24.50, distributors selling it to retailers for $49, and retailers selling it for $98.
Working it backwards for a $50 product, the retailer pays about $25, the distributor pays about $12.50, and the publisher pays about $6.25 to have it made. That means component costs have to be really, really low... especially for a box set which (1) you're also charged for the box, and (2) you're also charged for assembling and collating the components in the box. So the cost of the things IN the box (books, dice, etc.) is even more closely scrutinized.
See also: Sean's rant in response to the old argument "RPGs Are Too Expensive!"
Sounds like an excellent opportunity for some disintermediation. :)
Paizo isn't nearly large enough to negotiate special distribution to Walmart for just one product. As much as they wish they could hit a $20 box, I think it would be too thin. A $30 box on par with Dragon Age Set 1 is really the only realistic expectation. ~200 pages split between 2 or 3 books.
Made a lot of assumptions.I'd just like to follow up Sean by saying: there are a lot of assumptions about price and margins in these posts. Many of them are not correct. I can't go into detail, as that's pretty highly confidential information.
Though I will say that we have a pretty good idea both of what we want to go into the Intro Set and what we want it priced at.
Well, all I can say is:
(a) I hope the price point is somewhere around $20, though under $30 might be sufficient
(b) I hope what's going into the box is Pathfinder minus a lot of specialized rules, rather than Pathfinder modified a lot to make it simpler.
Hopefully we'll find out early this fall - in time for the Christmas season.
Made a lot of assumptions.I'd just like to follow up Sean by saying: there are a lot of assumptions about price and margins in these posts. Many of them are not correct. I can't go into detail, as that's pretty highly confidential information.
Though I will say that we have a pretty good idea both of what we want to go into the Intro Set and what we want it priced at.
I will admit that while my assumptions on pricing may not be great on the plastic parts, that the paper parts are pretty spot on (and I gave additional padding in my estimates, you costs should be lower than I indicated for the printing parts) and my experience in production management and retail give me a pretty good idea of what the plastic pieces cost as well. If anything, Sean's post indicates that I was overestimating your costs, giving a more generous room for profits.
That said, all I have said has been in support of Paizo and encouraging to their/your goal to produce a high quality and attractive product that will bring new players into the hobby. The tone of your post is offputting at best.
James Jacobs has asked for input on what we would like to see in this product on this thread. And SKR has been very diligently discussing the possibilities of this product without your animosity. Your comment about having a good idea about what your are going to force feed us was really insulting. Is your goal to have us abandon this thread? What conversation did you intend to further with that post? At any rate it was enough to get me to leave the threads for a while, which may have been your goal.
Paizo and all, the best of luck. Your game is awesome. I play it at least twice a week. I look forward to a compelling new product that will bring greater interest to the game.
@BigDTBone
My apologies if I came off with anything less than an amiable tone. Not my intent at all!
I guess I should have said, "This thread and others like it have given us a really good idea what we want to have in the product and where it should be priced." I promise, we're not going to try to force feed you anything you don't want. =)
Your comment about having a good idea about what your are going to force feed us was really insulting. I
See, I didn't get that from Chris's post at all.
@BigDTBone
My apologies if I came off with anything less than an amiable tone. Not my intent at all!
I guess I should have said, "This thread and others like it have given us a really good idea what we want to have in the product and where it should be priced." I promise, we're not going to try to force feed you anything you don't want. =)
I'm quite sure your avatar image had nothing to do with it :)
I will say I was somewhere in the middle. What I read from that post was "I know a bit more about it than you do, and your assumptions aren't right." Not in an insulting way, but in a "no, that's not right at all" sort of way.
However, I am very much looking forward to this, and I'm sincerely hoping it's as awesome as HeroQuest and/or Heroscape.
They asked for feedback 5+ months ago when this thread started. I would expect by now they have used that feedback to figure out what they can do at different price points. I would expect an anouncement by PaizoCon, and a release date anywhere between GenCon (assuming this is Jason's current super secret project) and the winter holidays (assuming it is just now being worked on.)
I didn't read anything insulting in Chris's post.
CEO
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lots of stuff about pricing and costs
Just to give everyone an idea, a good rule of thumb that people use in our industry is that a product should sell for 10 times the cost. So a $20 product should cost $2 to make. The $25 product cost in this quote would retail for $200 or more! It would take too long to say why this is the case, but the 10x rule works really really well.
Lisa
That leads me to believe his manufacturing estimates were considerably off.
I would want, dice, pre-gen 1st level characters, pre-gen adventures to run the characters in. Maybe enough to take the characters up to level 10 through these adventures. Enough characters for 4 PCs to run under one DM/GM. Classes available to play would be the basic ones: Barbarian, Cleric, Rogue, Sorcerer.
Keep the listed rules to the basics of combat (attack, cast spells, move). Forget things like attacks of opportunity.
A basic skill set (Perception, Disable Device, Stealth, maybe Acrobatics).
Limit feat selection to a basic list of combat feats available at low levels.
Limit weapons to classic ones: dagger, short sword, long sword, great sword, battle axe, warhammer, mace, short bow, long bow, cross bow. Maybe add one reach weapon like a longspear or halberd.
Limit armor to the basics: Shield (no heavy or light or tower, just shield, maybe a buckler for the rogue), Leather, Chainmail, Platemail.
Cloth or vinyl maps with grid. Plastic miniatures to represent the characters. Punch out cardboard tokens for the monsters.
Limit monsters to classic things: Orcs, goblins, skeletons, zombies, human pirates/bandits, a dragon or evil wizard for the final encounter in an adventure.
Have pre-gen statistics and treasure for all the monsters.
Think that pretty much covers what I'd like to see. This would help introduce new players to the game without overwhelming them with rules like my current group who have all never played a tabletop RPG.
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To be honest I don't think an intro board game should have the players creating characters whole cloth. Its too good of an opportunity to miss introducing the iconics to a new audience front and center. This will allow a new audience to recognize and identify the Pathfinder brand through the artwork of the iconics.
It should allow some limited choices (feats and spells) but most of all introduce players to a world of imagination, adventures, story-telling, and world-building (i.e. RPGs).
Here's what I think a successful intro game should include:
-1 set of dice
-Plastic hero minis
-Monster counters
-Selection of iconic character cards at level 1-2 one one side and levels 3-4 versions on the reverse side (with default feat/spell choices)
-a limited selection of feat and spell selection cards to be chosen by players as they begin play and level
-a flip-mat with a dungeon on one side and a blank map on the other
-a 40-page rulebook referencing basic rules and character abilities
-a Golarion intro setting book with a short mini-adventure detailing a small town and starting area to explore! (my vote is sandpoint!)
-random dungeon creation, wandering monster, and treasure tables (to continue play on their own)
-follows all rules for Pathfinder RPG
Players of the intro game should be able to pick up the Pathfinder RPG Core Book and continue leveling the same characters if they want or create some of their very own! Not only that but they can continue using the materials in the intro game to continuing telling their own stories. It will have everything they need.
The key is that picking up the core book expands on the experience of the intro game and that there are useful bits in the intro game that can continue to be used running the core PF game!
This has the added gain of introducing the world of Golarion to the players opening up the doors for all that wonderful Golarion content Paizo has available. Not to mention to PF minis, flip-mats, other gaming accessories, the Paizo website, and PF Society play as well!
Really I can see how an intro game can't be anything but a win-win for Paizo. I'd expect the box to come out to $50 retail easily but to be worth it, even for veteran gamers for ease of pulling it out to play with out any other materials. Nothing like playing with the box set with no pressure to continue but when everyone realizes they are having so much fun they end up staying with it and playing in a regular campaign!
My choice of iconic classes would be: Barbarian, Cleric, Magus, Rogue, and Wizard. But given these are card stock sheets there could easily be a dozen iconics to go with the game. An expansion could even introduce more iconics, feats, and spells for 1-4th level game play. Not to mention it makes players of the intro box set customers for all the paizo accessories and content without necssarily diving into the core books and the full set of rules!