Agreed on tossing the minis and making the game as divorced from minis as possible. That alone may be enough "old school" to make it feel different enough (and streamlined and easier to get into for beginners) while not creating an entirely alternate set of rules (Paizo, this isn't the aim, is it?) such that existing PFRPG material isn't compatible.
Well, Jdh417, I think you're underestimating Pathfinder's market and its potential for growing it. Specifically, I think you're leaving out younger gamers (or potential gamers) at the very least, who could be reached by a simplified, trimmed down version of Pf. I expect Paizo will come up with a creative way of addressing this, given their track record.
Jdh417, is your blog still up? If so, what's the address?
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My personal wish is to "grow the market," for I really love Paizo's line of products and I would like PFRPG to meet greater success.
I am 33 and am playing tabletop RPGs for the first time, and I'm running Pathfinder with a group of young people, mixed racially and ethnically, 13 to 20 years old, and they are thrilled by it. Some of them are video game enthusiasts and wouldn't necessarily give a tabletop RPG a shot were it not for having a friend (moi) who was dedicated and enthusiastic.
That said, I can see how Pathfinder could find new gamers among the younger generation, but I'm just not sure how best to cross that bridge.
A couple thoughts: I see what people are saying about having fewer classes. On the other hand, I found that letting new players peruse over the fluff text and options for the characters to big a BIG draw for getting excited about the game. I think there should be a subset of the options that are available in the complete ruleset, but not forget that options have a role in making a character concept vivid in a player's imagination.
I'm a fan of the old Red Box Set (I read it obsessively as a kid), and I really liked the easy introduction to all the RPG concepts in the context of a read-through solo adventure. For a new generation, this would need to be updated: I think young people are familiar with the concept of hit points, for example, and on the other hand might need to be explicitly sold into the open endedness -- or, to use a modern gaming term, the "sandbox" nature -- of a tabletop RPG.
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Good question and I am glad you asked...
I would like to see the intro version be a Pathfinder light version, with everything (skills, feats, character powers) toned down a bit. I agree that the Pathfinder basic version needs to be compatible with the main line, but I think there is room for a rules light version that is closer to 1st ed than 3rd edition.
Great to see this announced!
I have been in the process of creating my own version of Pathfinder "basic" for a little while now - mostly geared to making it easier to pick up and play quickly.
Human classes include Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Wizard. Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings are treated as their own racial classes. Characters can advance to 12th level using the slow progression XP rate.
Skills are further consolidated. No skill points to allocate each level, instead each class has major and minor skills, and bonuses are calculated as:
Major Skill Bonus: Major Attribute Modifier + ½ Minor Attribute + Level +3
Minor Skill Bonus: Major Attribute Modifier + ½ Minor Attribute + Level
No feat selection. Instead, each class has predetermined feats per normal Pathfinder feat progression rates. For example, Fighters receive Weapon Focus and Power Attack at 1st level, and Cleave at 3rd level.
Combat also includes less options. No AOO. No CMB/CMD. No special maneuvers. Basically, flanking, surprise, charging. Grappling is handled through touch attacks and melee attacks.
No spells or magic items that boost stats. There are other equipment adjustments, including no small vs. medium weapon sizes.
Obviously not for everyone, but an Intro or Basic game would be really appealing to me.
Rethinking my previous post, I'm thinking that two sets of double-sided character cards, per class (levels 1-4) and player rules to support those presets would be fine from a player standpoint (make it easy, provide all the mathy bits) if a somewhat robust DM/adventure builder component was included.
The thesis is, basically, a limited number of hard-coded player character options is acceptable, if a framework for infinitely extensible adventure is also provided. This second part is a bit like LEGOs, a detailed plan for 1-2 constructions and a detailed suggestion for 3-5 more (1/2 page geomorphs, to borrow from 1e.)
Uh, guess I posted in the wrong thread...so here it goes again (sorry for double post - feel free to remove one)...
Hi @all,
if you want to "grow the crowd" i think it is essential for an Intro Set to not only be available at specialized shops, but also at larger stores, such as Toys'R' Us or something similar (don't know any store names in US/England). Here in Germany a lot of children go to such stores with their parents. I never saw parent and children in a RPG-specialized shop...So, to get their attention, you need a boxed set (not a book) because a boxed set looks like a game.
There should be some minatures in it: one hero for each of the classes and a small sample of monster miniatures. Best if they are prepainted, so that the box can have some transparent part at the top where the heroes are displayed. This will draw attention to the product...
The box has to be an eye-catcher and should be rather "big" or it will drown within all the other boxed games...But your marketing department should know better ;-) of how to "draw attention"...
Now to what should be in:
- an erasable battlemat
- charaktersheets (perhaps erasable too)
- an eraser pen
- a set of funky dice
- adventure (1 dungeon, 1 village to shop
- a PRPG rules light version: My suggestions:
- Races: the basics (elf, human, dwarf, gnome)
- Classes: the basics (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard)
- No alignment
- Stripped down list of skills, spells, feats, equipment.
- Covering of levels 1 to 10
- Remove AoO, no combat maneuvers
That's it from the top of my head...
Some interesting comments / ideas from James Maliszewski's blog.
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/
His commentary is, agree with him or not, intelligent and thoughtful. His ideas on what a basic / expert / advanced rpg set should be is interesting.
As for me, I'm not interested in this product for my own use. Done well, I could certainly see myself recommending it to a lot of younger gamers (I teach highschool and advise the Computer and Game Club on my campus -- we play pretty much everything).
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We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
As someone who just ran his 12 year old through her first adventure, I would have loved to have had a a Pathfinder lite to run for her. Here are a few of the things I would have liked to have had in a PFRPG basic
game.1) Fewer skills. I've always thought the 3.x/Pathfinder skill list is unnecessarily long. 10, maybe 15 skills max is all we really need. Many gamers end up using the same 5-10 skills and the others just take up space on the character sheet anyway.
2.) Feats are something else that seems pointless in an introductory game. My groups always take feats like toughness, any proficiency they need for weapons and armor, and still spell/silent spell/combat casting. After those they never give their feats a second thought or use them in-game. I know there are players that utilize feats regularly, but not using them has never impacted any game I've ever played. A new player doesn't need to be overwhelmed with a bunch of feats.
3.) Magic. My daughter and many of the newer players I've known don't get the resting to relearn magic spells that you already know. They also don't like stopping during a game to decide if they need to drop certain spells or alter their list.
We solve this issue by making spell lists static. Once you know a spell the only way to replace it is when you level up. You can choose to "forget" or erase some spells and replace them with a new ones, but only during level up.
4)Another problem I've heard from newer players is with spells per day/spell slots. We use Spells per day as a total that is not affected by level.
For example, your spells per day are 4 zero level, 2 first level and 1 second level, that gives you a total 7 spells per day.
That means you can cast any spell on your list a <b>total of 7 times per day</b>, as long as you know that spell and it is not above your caster level. Once those 7 "points" are gone, you are done until you rest up.
We never mess with having to prepare the spell multiple times, spell slots or anything like that. Once you know a spell, you know it and don't forget it unless you level up and erase it from your spell-book.
This makes more sense to younger players. After all Harry Potter, Gandalf and any other magic user in the movies/tv shows or video games they are familiar with do not forget their spells every day. They just run out of "energy" (Spells per day points) and need to rest. Even my older players like this better. They claim it is less disruptive than having a magic user rummaging through a book trying to figure out which spells they want while the game is still going on.(during rest/healing periods)
5)I've also found that newer players are completely happy with having only Fighter, Sorcerer, Cleric, and Thief/Assassin as classes. They prefer Sorcerers over Wizards because they don't have to worry about materials or spellbooks. However, they are not happy with the being limited by the core races, with the exceptions of elves.
Every new player I have ever had in my groups always wants to play a something besides a dwarf, Half-elf, human, halfling, half-orc, or gnome.
Drow, goblins, minotaurs, tieflings (even before 4e), some kind of lizardfolk, or a half-aquatic race are always among the first requests I get from new players. After that is something with wings.
New Players and even my older players like to play a variety of races, classes just don't matter as much. Honestly to most new players the only fantasy roles/classes they are familiar with are fighter, magic user, thief and maybe cleric/priests.
6)Keep combat simple and the AC/defense scores static. Unless they loose a piece of armor. Newer players don't care about being caught flat footed, attacks of opportunity, bonuses and penalties for concealment, speed, encumbrance and adjacent "squares". They just want to roll their dice , add their bonuses and see if they hit. The rest of that is gibberish to a new(younger) player.
7)Also newer players sometimes can't figure out why your caster level doesn't match your character level.
To them it makes for sense if at first level you cast first level spells. At second level you cast first and second level spells, and so on until at twentieth level you can cast twentieth level spells.
Now my requests/suggestions are looking at it from the POV of players I've had that either grew up on video games or had little exposure to fantasy films and books. Most of my new players aren't just new to the hobby, but many are also new to the whole fantasy genre.
Another thing I'd like to have in a basic/introductory set is a single book with everything from character creation, DMing, and basic monsters in it. Honestly, the cheap digest sized books like Essentials would also be appreciated. It is so much nicer to have a book that you can stick in your jacket pocket, instead of lugging around a computer to read pdfs or carrying 600 pg books.
As a matter of fact an introductory set that came with a simple map, a few tokens, a digest sized PHB and a digest sized rulebook/bestiary for the GM would be well worth $25.
The Gift: Why Paizo should give Pathfinder away
This is kind of off on a tangent, but even the idea of buying gaming books is a big of a grognard thing.
A new generation is coming into gaming that, by and large, does not think of game rules as something that you would pay for and does not see having your own copy of the book as something to want. Imagine people more likely to have an iPad full of illicit .pdfs than a bookshelf of hardbacks and you're about there.
I don't think this is going to affect a Paizo as quickly or as badly as it would affect a publisher with a higher throughput of rules books, but I think it's something that the RPG industry in general is going to struggle with in the years ahead. It's not possible to get the digital genie back in the bottle, so the questions become
1) How do I make technology work for me, in a revenue-generating way, instead of just against me, and
2) How do I create products that either have no digital version or wouldn't be as good in a digital version?
Assuming we want a Starter Set to be for people new to the game (not OSR, not White Wolf, not Indie), and we want to keep the current Core Rulebook (thus we cannot have a BECMI style sequence of products), and based on what I see when I introduce new players to my games, I suggest the following:
1. No skills. Keep five typical rogue skills like Search, Open Lock, Disable Device, Stealth and provide a table with skill rank per level.
2. No feats and class abilities. Keep sneak attack.
3. Four classes. Fighter, cleric, sorcerer, rogue. Sorcerers are easier to play than wizards.
4. Keep all the levels. We're not doing a BECMI sequence so no need to limit them.
5. Keep all the races. Everybody understands racial ability bonus, language, and speed.
6. Add a tiny winged humanoid race. I've had two people joining my groups wanting to play a faery. Make them sorcerers.
7. No combat maneuvers.
8. No attacks of opportunity.
9. No 5ft step.
10. Ganging up on single enemies grants automatic +2 for flanking and sneak attack for rogues.
11. Start with four sorcerer blood lines and provide a suggested sorcerer spell selection based on the theme. Make a nice table so people can look up which spells they know based on their level. Picking spells is hard for people who haven't read the book.
Essentially, all the things we left out can be added later, piece by piece, from the Core Rules.
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As others have said:
- Minis for each character (4 total, perhaps of Iconics)
- Minis for the introductory enemies, such as goblins (1 or 2 encounters worth)
- Item cards for treasure (not a whole deck, just enough for one or two encounters)
- Flip mat for the encounter(s)
- A 'choose your own adventure' style booklet adventure/encounter, made for several individuals, not just one
- A quick summary of what each race/class does, and what they each get when they level up once.
- A custom set of "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" dice (see above)
And I do agree that this should be aimed at a younger crowd. And come in a box set for under $20, if at all possible.
You know, your list of minis alone would pretty much take it over the $20 price point at retail. And for your full list, our per-unit *manufacturing* costs would probably be way more than $20!
We'll certainly do our best to strike a balance between "high production values" and "inexpensive," and we're expecting to have slimmer margins than normal... but I think you're going to need to lower your expectations there—*losing* money on every copy sold is not part of the plan.
To get a better idea of what's actually doable in a box set, look at Kill Doctor Lucky: for $30, you get a game board, a cardboard token sheet, a handful of plastic stands, a 4-page booklet, and a deck of 96 cards. Obviously, those aren't the exact components we'd want here, but if you think about that in terms of give and take, maybe it'll help you keep suggestions within reason. (For example, a 4-page booklet obviously isn't going to cut it, so we'll need to spend more there. Maybe if we drop the cards, we can expand the first booklet and add a second... and swapping a Flip-Mat in for that hard game board would probably save some money to spend on the books... but if you want to add dice, you'll need to either take something out or raise the price... and so on.)
If we replace the word "minis" with the word "tokens".. and delete the "item cards" line.. does that help?
Assuming we want a Starter Set to be for people new to the game (not OSR, not White Wolf, not Indie), and we want to keep the current Core Rulebook (thus we cannot have a BECMI style sequence of products), and based on what I see when I introduce new players to my games, I suggest the following:
1. No skills. Keep five typical rogue skills like Search, Open Lock, Disable Device, Stealth and provide a table with skill rank per level.
2. No feats and class abilities. Keep sneak attack.
3. Four classes. Fighter, cleric, sorcerer, rogue. Sorcerers are easier to play than wizards.
4. Keep all the levels. We're not doing a BECMI sequence so no need to limit them.
5. Keep all the races. Everybody understands racial ability bonus, language, and speed.
6. Add a tiny winged humanoid race. I've had two people joining my groups wanting to play a faery. Make them sorcerers.
7. No combat maneuvers.
8. No attacks of opportunity.
9. No 5ft step.
10. Ganging up on single enemies grants automatic +2 for flanking and sneak attack for rogues.
11. Start with four sorcerer blood lines and provide a suggested sorcerer spell selection based on the theme. Make a nice table so people can look up which spells they know based on their level. Picking spells is hard for people who haven't read the book.Essentially, all the things we left out can be added later, piece by piece, from the Core Rules.
I agree with most of this, except I would limit it to levels 1-5 (or 1-3 if you want to get really nostalgic). Give each class 3 or 4 skill/feat packages, and overall make the list of feats very small. And I would go generalist wizard instead of sorcerer.
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What we need is a intro set, not an alternate rule set at all. There are many OSR games available for free online if you want a rules lite version of d20 fantasy. There is no need for Pathfinder to create a competing product for itself in this regard.
The game should be completely compatible with Pathfinder. A player should be able to take the character they made here, and be able to continue playing it when they purchase the Core Rulebook.
1) So that means we need things like skills and feats in the game. People need to LEARN how to do these things. Limit the list, sure, but keep the concepts. This should not be a stand alone product.
2) Use minis / maps. New players, in my experience demoing games for new players on a regular basis in my game store, understand the game AND combat easier with minis / maps. Include a flip-mat with the game, and tokens for the characters (minis would be too expensive, I agree.)
3) A set of dice is important, as well. It wouldn't need to be anything fancy, just a set of dice. Q-Workshop, who you have worked with for dice, just released the new cheaper dice, those would be great.
4) Creating a character is an important part of playing the game. So there should be rules for character creation. However... having some pre-gens would be handy too.
5) Levels 1-3 sound good. Perhaps have levels 4 & 5 available on the website as a web-enhancement, with another race / class? That way it drives traffic here.
6) Do not invent any other races. Again, this is an introduction to the Pathfinder Role Playing game, you don't have Minotaurs or Fairies in the core rulebook, so you shouldn't have them here. Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling are the obvious choices.
7) Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Bard for character classes. This lets players see the concepts of prepared / spontaneous casting. Lets them see a spellbook, a divine list, and a limited list. A combat focused class, and a skill focused class. Limit the spell lists, limit the choices of feats and equipment, but the act of making these choices is important.
8) Include some Combat Maneuvers. This is one of Pathfinder's biggest strengths and improvements to the game. You shouldn't hide it! Maybe not all of them, but the simple ones like Disarm and Trip would be good.
We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
As someone who just ran his 12 year old through her first adventure, I would have loved to have had a a Pathfinder lite to run for her. Here are a few of the things I would have liked to have had in a PFRPG basic
game.1) Fewer skills. I've always thought the 3.x/Pathfinder skill list is unnecessarily long. 10, maybe 15 skills max is all we really need. Many gamers end up using the same 5-10 skills and the others just take up space on the character sheet anyway.
2.) Feats are something else that seems pointless in an introductory game. My groups always take feats like toughness, any proficiency they need for weapons and armor, and still spell/silent spell/combat casting. After those they never give their feats a second thought or use them in-game. I know there are players that utilize feats regularly, but not using them has never impacted any game I've ever played. A new player doesn't need to be overwhelmed with a bunch of feats.
3.) Magic. My daughter and many of the newer players I've known don't get the resting to relearn magic spells that you already know. They also don't like stopping during a game to decide if they need to drop certain spells or alter their list.
We solve this issue by making spell lists static. Once you know a spell the only way to replace it is when you level up. You can choose to "forget" or erase some spells and replace them with a new ones, but only during level up.4)Another problem I've heard from newer players is with spells per day/spell slots. We use Spells per day as a total that is not affected by level.
For example, your spells per day are 4 zero level, 2 first level and 1 second level, that gives you a total 7 spells per day.
That means you can cast...
I agree with nearly everything in this post... I've run children's games as well as games for new gamers and all of the things that Capt. D has listed hold true.
A few posters have stated that they don't think Paizo ought to create a set of rules that is for a less strenuous system, but rather try for some high-gloss, easy to digest intro game that can attract the younger generation. IMHO I don't think that these games necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.
Seems to me that Paizo's strength is their writing. Their adventures and support material are top-notch. The rules were built on the shoulders of a preexisting system. Why not just pare them down a bit (back to many of Capt. D's suggestions) and use the result as both a complete game, in and of itself, as well as a tool used to introduce / lure the new gamer to the table? The existing core rule book could be the natural extension or "next step", should the player be interested in taking it.
A complete, rules-lite (to over use an OSR term) PF game, with which you could jump in and play any of the PF material (past, present and future) would be a massive win for the company as well as the community. Something that would be portable enough to fit in a small shoulder bag (Digest-sized books anyone?), that you could break out and get playing w/in 30 minutes (character generation and a brief explanation of game / adventure) would be so incredibly useful.
I've lost my youngest daughter's interest due to the complexity of the game. She loves imagining each scene, the NPCs and how her character interacts. But when it comes to selecting spells or pouring through a long book in order to look up a description of something, she's done. My eldest has a better attention span and is much more patient. I don't think that these two are corner cases either, probably quite the opposite in fact.
Why not make a game that allows them to imagine right away, rather than directing them to learn rules first? I'm not adverse to rules...I'm adverse to pausing play for any reason. Long character creation w/ too many choices, huge long lists of feats, skills, spells, etc. seem to kill the initial desire. While this may appeal to many, it's not an inducement, and is often an impediment to others.
I applaud Paizo for trying their hand at this very difficult task. No one is harder to please than a demanding game audience. We're a finicky bunch...
Chief Technical Officer
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If we replace the word "minis" with the word "tokens".. and delete the "item cards" line.. does that help?
Indeed it does! You might also have to remove the word "custom" from the "dice" line to hit the price point you asked for... but yeah, that's the kind of thinking we're going to have to do here.
I think it's a mistake to only have dungeon play in an intro set. Maybe three venues of play need to be present to appeal to more folks: Dungeon, Wilderness, Urban.
What we need is a intro set, not an alternate rule set at all. There are many OSR games available for free online if you want a rules lite version of d20 fantasy. There is no need for Pathfinder to create a competing product for itself in this regard.
The game should be completely compatible with Pathfinder. A player should be able to take the character they made here, and be able to continue playing it when they purchase the Core Rulebook.
1) So that means we need things like skills and feats in the game. People need to LEARN how to do these things. Limit the list, sure, but keep the concepts. This should not be a stand alone product.
2) Use minis / maps. New players, in my experience demoing games for new players on a regular basis in my game store, understand the game AND combat easier with minis / maps. Include a flip-mat with the game, and tokens for the characters (minis would be too expensive, I agree.)
3) A set of dice is important, as well. It wouldn't need to be anything fancy, just a set of dice. Q-Workshop, who you have worked with for dice, just released the new cheaper dice, those would be great.
4) Creating a character is an important part of playing the game. So there should be rules for character creation. However... having some pre-gens would be handy too.
5) Levels 1-3 sound good. Perhaps have levels 4 & 5 available on the website as a web-enhancement, with another race / class? That way it drives traffic here.
6) Do not invent any other races. Again, this is an introduction to the Pathfinder Role Playing game, you don't have Minotaurs or Fairies in the core rulebook, so you shouldn't have them here. Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling are the obvious choices.
7) Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Bard for character classes. This lets players see the concepts of prepared / spontaneous casting. Lets them see a spellbook, a divine list, and a limited list. A combat focused class, and a...
There have been several good suggestions in this thread so far that go along with something I would consider a good intro set, but this one seems to fit what I would have in mind the best. Hits a lot of the important points and matches what I would look forward to purchasing quite well.
If this is meant to get new people interested in role-playing games then I think you need to get the starter set out of the usual hobby/book shops - e.g. some sort of Apple/Android App.
Once you get people interested they can be directed to the FLGS etc. for more "advanced" stuff
I keep thinking E6 would be a great box in itself. Maybe limit it to just a few classes and the appropriate feats (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard). If you are doing a single hardcover you can keep it in one book, or if it is a real box split it into player's guide, GM's guide (With CR 0-6 monsters), and short intro adventure (like one of the free rpg ones, maybe it's time to reprint the first free RPG day adventure for Pathfinder.)
What we need is a intro set, not an alternate rule set at all. There are many OSR games available for free online if you want a rules lite version of d20 fantasy. There is no need for Pathfinder to create a competing product for itself in this regard.
The game should be completely compatible with Pathfinder. A player should be able to take the character they made here, and be able to continue playing it when they purchase the Core Rulebook.
1) So that means we need things like skills and feats in the game. People need to LEARN how to do these things. Limit the list, sure, but keep the concepts. This should not be a stand alone product.
2) Use minis / maps. New players, in my experience demoing games for new players on a regular basis in my game store, understand the game AND combat easier with minis / maps. Include a flip-mat with the game, and tokens for the characters (minis would be too expensive, I agree.)
3) A set of dice is important, as well. It wouldn't need to be anything fancy, just a set of dice. Q-Workshop, who you have worked with for dice, just released the new cheaper dice, those would be great.
4) Creating a character is an important part of playing the game. So there should be rules for character creation. However... having some pre-gens would be handy too.
5) Levels 1-3 sound good. Perhaps have levels 4 & 5 available on the website as a web-enhancement, with another race / class? That way it drives traffic here.
6) Do not invent any other races. Again, this is an introduction to the Pathfinder Role Playing game, you don't have Minotaurs or Fairies in the core rulebook, so you shouldn't have them here. Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling are the obvious choices.
7) Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Bard for character classes. This lets players see the concepts of prepared / spontaneous casting. Lets them see a spellbook, a divine list, and a limited list. A combat focused class, and a...
Great post. I would go levels 1-5 or 1-6 myself but good list over all
I'm glad to see this. I'm not sure what the stated intent of the product is (Intro to PF vs. Rules-Light version, etc), but personally I've been working on creating my own rules-light game to teach a group of friends that have never played RPGs before.
In my own games, I play Pathfinder. I love Pathfinder and I am in wholehearted agreement with Steel Wind when he refers to it as "D&D done right."
However, it is a complex game built for people who have experience with RPGs. Character creation alone can take several hours.
So I wanted something you could use to create new characters with a group of noobs in under 30 minutes. At first, I was just going to go the premade route, but then it dawned on me that character creation is one of the key things that makes an RPG an RPG (at least for me).
I've looked at various free offerings out there, and playtested a few. The most fundamental problem I had with all of them was that they weren't pathfinder. I tried Basic Fantasy RPG with a small group, and while it looked great on paper, it turned out to be boring to us. On every turn, "I hit him with my sword" and the wizard only having one spell didn't make for a great deal of excitement.
The current thing I'm working on is taking Microlite20, and sprinkling in some Pathfinder/3.5 things like feats and additional race/class options. I also had to add the Charisma stat. It's important in games that I run.
Anyways, I'm rambling now, so I'll get to the point. The list of things I would look for in an intro Pathfinder set are the following:
1. Faster, less complex character creation process.
2. A set of premades for those who don't care about creating their own character.
3. Limited but interesting options for characters. A subset of feats, spells, and equipment from the regular PF game. A pared-down set of skills. All options should have examples of how they might be used in a game. Example character builds that illustrate how the same class can come in many different flavors. Tables that characters can use to roll for or select premade equipment packs and things like that. These are helpful in a number of ways. If you need to make characters quickly, you can roll on a series of tables to make selections. Also, sometimes just looking at tables like this can help steer players to make selections on their own by seeing the examples.
4. The main thing is for the game to be fun, fast, and easy. I want a game I can use to teach new people. Whether the games is separate from PF or a subset of it, the important thing is that the PF Core Rulebook is the natural next step for people who want more after playing the intro game. Someone who has played a few rounds with this intro game should find the core rulebook much more approachable and familiar.
5. Spell cards and power cards for things like flurry of blows, etc. New players do better when they see examples of things that they can do in my opinion.
6. As long as you don't have to do 20 pages of errata to your core rules to make the intro game work, I call it a victory! :P
P.S. - I really liked the 3.x Basic Set, especially the minis and the double-sided tiles.
P.S. - get plastic minis in there. let Reaper have a full-page spread in one of the books, or an insert in each box in return for some reasonably-priced plastics or something like that.
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What we need is a intro set, not an alternate rule set at all. There are many OSR games available for free online if you want a rules lite version of d20 fantasy. There is no need for Pathfinder to create a competing product for itself in this regard.
(Awesome ideas)
This is the level of game required to make a solid core set in my mind. It's one thing to present players with Pathfinder Lite, but if the goal is to get them to flow seamlessly from the EZ ruleset to the full game, it's vital that the game be presented with the same rules. Adding rules is one thing, but providing any kind of "alternate" rules only will cause confusion once they switch over to Core Pathfinder.
Here's my two-cents...
First, make it a boxed set. Call it nostalgia, but the kids will snap it up and grognards who remember the good ol' days will immediately recogize it and buy it for their kids/grandkids. The box also serves to hold all of the goodies better than a single book.
After that, include the following:
1) Player's Guide (scaled down)
- Four Races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Gnome; to save on space, limit the racial abilities to 1-2 unique things, not the entire list)
- Four classes (Cleric - with limited domain choices, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard - with Universalist school only)
- Levels 1-3 (to save on space)
- Limited skills (cut out Craft, Profession, Perform, Linguistics, etc.; maybe limit Knowledge skill options to just a few, and so on)
- Limited feats (3-4 applicable feats per class obtainable over levels 1-3)
- Limited spell list (obviously, with levels 1-3, you only need cantrips/orisons, 1st, and 2nd level spells for Clerics and Wizards, but even then, trim it down to just a few for each level)
- Basic combat and skill mechanics (leave out CMB/CMD and any maneuver-related feats)
2) Introductory Adventure and partial GM's Guide
- A 16-page sandbox adventure (comparable to Hollows's Last Hope and the original Keep on the Borderlands) with breakout sidebars to explain any terrain or advanced combat mechanics and a 1-page listing of pregen iconic PCs in the back).
- A limited monster bestiary (which the adventure can reference for stat-blocks, but includes a few more for custom adventure-making down the road)
- A limited magic item compendium (i.e., no more than 10-12 cool things such low-level heroes might want to own, could include a fair number of scrolls and potions with the Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion feat available to wizards to expand the possibilities a little)
3) A single, double-sided flip-mat (depicting two reusable scenes from the introductory adventure, preferrably a wilderness setting and dungeon)
4) Tokens (a single page of card stock tokens to serve as minis for monsters and PCs, but make them compact enough to fit as many as you can on the sheet; you could also make it double-sided so that a single token had a goblin on one side and a hobgoblin on the other to maximize their usefulness and mix/match ability).
5) Dice (no frills, just a set that will get them rolling)
6) A coupon, flyer, etc. (that directs them to the Paizo site for more, including any web enhancements you might want to give away or bonus PDFs)
If you can create a boxed set in the $30 range with those things and still meet your price point, I think it'll become a tremendously successful product for you.
--Neil
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My general ideas:
1) Most rules absolutely in line with the "full" rules -- nothing changes about the rules themselves as you move from intro to "full", you just learn more rules. Any changes made are a "slimming down" of a particular rule to make resolution of it easier (see below)
2) Trim the feat list down considerably. Fewer options, but keep the function of the feats the same. Power Attack, for example -- as it is written now, it works fine and I can explain it to anyone easily. In fact, if the intro rules never advanced people beyond 3rd level, Power Attack is dead simple to explain -- it's always -1 to hit, and +1-3 to damage depending on the type of weapon.
3) No need to limit race choices -- none of the races are inherently hard to "get" or run. If you had to trim down for space, the iconic choices to me remain human, elf, dwarf, halfling (good enough for the Red Box, good enough for me)
4) Limited class choices and options. I myself would throw out monk, paladin, druid, sorceror, and barbarian entirely. Red Box standards, baby -- fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric.
Specifics per class:
- Fighter -- OK as is
- Rogue -- Simplify rules on when you get the sneak dice. OK if you just reverted to "you have to be behind him or surprise him", that didn't hurt us in the first 20+ years of gaming. Trim down talent list severely; if there's a level cap, you're only going to get to pick 2-3 of them at most anyway
- Wizard -- Mostly OK, but consider either removing arcane focus entirely or making it be a single thing. I'd suggest going with item focus only; familiars have too many bonuses/penalties that are circumstantial. If you just told every wizard "you need this thing to cast spells, just like the cleric needs his holy symbol. Once a day, you can cast a bonus spell with it", that's dead simple.
- Cleric -- No gods? Just general beliefs and a really reduced choice of domains (remove the ones that have hard-to-explain abilities)? At the very least... fewer domains. Saves space, decreases complexity, doesn't overwhelm people with too many options to weigh
5) Same thing with everything else -- the same stuff, just less of it. Omit the things that introduce complicated subjects. So (for example), no monsters with grab+constrict (because grappling still is way complex). Way fewer spells and magic items.
6) Combat -- I'd chop out many of the factors.
- Criticals -- Could be made into "you do maximum damage", omitting confirm rolls entirely -- or you just remove criticals completely, is that a big deal?
- Combat manuevers -- don't get me started on this. Grappling is still way crazy, and let me tell you... everyone who is new to the game instantly wants to tackle the bad guys. They never ever understand when I try to explain how it works... because it doesn't. Don't take it as an insult, though -- every RPG has horrible grappling rules. Your chance to fix this.
- Concealment -- simplify down to just an AC bonus, no % misses.
Stuff like that. Ruthlessly cut down options.
7) Elements I'd expect in the box:
- Players book
- DMs book (which includes the monster stats)
- Tokens; just a variety of medium, large, huge chits for combat. Art quality can be poor on these. Actual miniatures would just be icing on the cake. I played with pennies with masking tape on them for numbers for years.
- Several pre-made maps. Must be awesome, because newbie GMs won't all want to draw their own
- Blank grid paper for making your own maps, because eventually every GM will want to draw their own.
8) Beyond the above -- The product must have an absolutely awesome intro adventure suitable for levels 1-3. Spend most of the time on this! Make it very simple to GM it -- tons of helper text for the GM, 2-3 pages just devoted to "lets see how our group of 4 players (one for each class, and each a different race!) plus the GM play through these encounters", etc. If the adventure kicks ass, people will be motivated to figure out how to play. You need your "Keep on the Borderlands" and Caves of Chaos.
I think, properly done, your approach can really strip the game down to what matters. Toss out any preconceptions about what is needed, and decide on an "opt-in" approach -- if a rule/class/spell/feat/race is there, it's because you put it there and someone made the good argument that it's iconic and vital to the game. These don't have to be "kiddie" rules (although I'd love them to be suitable for a younger audience), they just have to be simpler rules. Most of the fun of gaming occurs way outside the rules -- help the players to get the rules out of the way as much as possible by making the rules easy!
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Adding rules is one thing, but providing any kind of "alternate" rules only will cause confusion once they switch over to Core Pathfinder.
I don't think this is always true. If you simplify some elements (that is, the ones you don't omit entirely -- for example, criticals aren't core to the game IMHO), you can present them as "quick play" versions of the full rules. They resolve easier, but when you get to see the full rules, all you see is "oh, now my rogue can sneak attack people if they have this new 'flanked' condition that the Basic rules didn't have, not just when he's directly behind them! Awesome, guys, let's flank people a lot!".
I see it as being quite possible to trim some of the complexity out without too much drift from lite to full. I'd prefer the approach that just completely cuts out anything too complex, but some things are more amenable to the "rules light" approach.
I wasn't a big fan of 4E (so call me a 3.5 grognard if you like) and I love PF, but when I run games for kids as part of the Children's University at my local school I use 4E because it's quick and simple to set up and play (if you ignore some of the fiddlier aspects like marking). Everything you need is clearly laid out on the sample characters from the free to download module but since I have the original hard copy I just run off the character sheets and then use the normal booklets and map sheets plus my own minis. For young players the dice, figures and floorplans combo is the key, plus easy to follow rules. The new Castle Ravenloft game works just as well for the same reasons but includes hit point counters and cards for feats and abilities, items etc. so I believe any intro game has to have dice, figures and floorplans/maps to grab the kids' attention. You also need a simple set of rules for the players and a slightly bigger booklet of rules and adventures for the DM. Include some equipment cards, spell cards and so on and you have a winner imho. And yes, the rules should lead into the full game and not be an alternate set. Levels 1-3 worked for Basic D&D so why not for PF? If you want more you buy the full rules. And you will want more...But if you want to intro the game to more experienced players then go the softback rulebook route.
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I would have trouble recommending a book that only supported 1st through 3rd levels since it would be obsolete so quickly and doesn't really touch on the 'fun' parts of the game.
What I would really like to see:
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Here's my two-cents...
** spoiler omitted **
If you can create a boxed set in the $30 range with those things, I think...
This right here - it's what I was advocating in the other thread.
A brand new adventure plus a cool layout would be more than enough for most people just to pick this up. A box would make it even nicer.
I think the Crypt + gamemaster map type combo is a win, maybe a cheaper paper double map (Gamma World , Start Frontiers) to save on price - or not. A brand new mod and gamemastery map would be great.
I think this game should transition people over and should teach a use all the basic mechanics - combat, movement, DC system, skills, etc. They should all just be parsed and pared down. I don't think that they should just be able to use their characters in core without a little bit of work (new feats and more skills would now be available) but it should translate over pretty seamlessly.
Get them to the website – include a core conversion doc (for the minor stuff) in the box or online.
I think the game should be pitched, but also an emphasis/link up on the other products – Golarian fluff books, gamemastery, maps, etc should be there.
ya know guys, cheap Non glossy paper map might be better for the price point. And may allow to include more. I recall when maps first came out them being on paper, non glossy but nice. This could be a good way to include a few maps without upping the price.
That and tokens, simple cardboard tokens, round and punch out would be great.
Dice are a must as well
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Learn from successful businesses with similar products. You know, drug dealers. You are both selling addictive products that eventually consume large amounts of a persons money/life. And this should be the first taste you give to make them come back for more, the gateway box if you will.
With that in mind.
1) K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid)
Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, all will minimal feats/spells for playing 1st - 3rd level.
I would suggest not mentioning point buys and just get them rolling dice right away. There is something magic about rolling dice, and something scary about figuring out the point buy math.
For races, I would do the Tolkien 4 of Human, Dwarf, Halfling and elf, with each description taking no more than half a page, less if possible.
If the instruction book is more than 36 pages, it is too big. If they want more, point them to the SRD, or better yet get them to buy the core rulebook.
2) I remember the first time I played D&D, way back in the day, I didn't know anyone who played. They had these choose your own adventure style solo quests where functionally the book was DM'ing for you as you did a dungeon crawl vs rust monsters and bats.
Playing it taught me the basic rules without having to find a group or a DM. This gave me the courage to actually seek out others who played without fear of being a complete noobs, not to mention an outlet to play while I was trying to get past the "gamer" stigma.
Something like this would be a great place to start.
3) Whoever said the 30 Price point is dead on. Aside from the above, and the mandatory set of dice, it would be great to have miniatures (even cheap crappy plastic ones) and flip mats (even just a paper tear out sheet in the book) but the key is make it fairly cheap. Anything over 30 starts pushing it from Mid-Level gift to "Expensive". Using the paper minis could also work, and be another product placement thing.
But the 30 dollar price point should reign supreme. He'll 29.99 should be the real goal.
4) Put the links to the free adventures you have already put out at the end of the free solo adventure, or better yet a link to a new one you will make as a follow up to the solo adventure. It will bring them to the website, which introduces them to new products, and it will get them playing more after learning the rules on there own. Maybe even have a free pdf of an "easy DM" quest that follows the solo quest so the kid can invite friends over to DM his first game, now that he has all the stuff and he learned the rules on his own.
These are my suggestions.
Just a helpful anecdote: When me and my gaming buddies started gaming again after a 15-year hiatus, we played 4E. We did this because we played D&D before (2E), so we figured we would continue to play D&D.
I had heard about Pathfinder, but when I saw the thickness of the book at my FLGS, I just kept walking.
Then Free RPG Day came. A few of us went to the FLGS to play a 4E game we had signed up for, and afterwards went to look at the goodies table. I couldn't help but notice Master of the Fallen Fortress. It stuck out like a shining star amongst the other lesser-quality freebies.
Eventually, our group began to grow discontent with how far 4E had deviated from the game we grew up with. I tested out the free module with a few players, and after some discussion, we made the switch.
Today, we continue to play Pathfinder because it is a better system to give us what we want to get out of our games. However, it should be noted that it was the high production quality that drew me in at the beginning. If it weren't for the shiny, beautiful artwork, we may have gone with a different game or even stuck with 4E.
I guess my point is to not sacrifice the quality that Paizo is known for in order to stuff more goodies into the box. Whenever I open my wallet to buy something that says Paizo on it, I know I am buying a product of superior craftsmanship. I'd rather see no starter set than one that contains crappy newsprint booklets and cheapo dice.
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
1) Anything you do in this product should be completely usable in PFRPG.
2) A 1st level sample characters On Character Sheets no stat blocks.
3) A walk-through of character building that reads cleanly and in a step-by-step fashion (perhaps with pictures of sections of the character sheet based on what step your working on)
4) This is the biggest piece... A very simple but interesting module, that's designed with the idea that the DM is picking the module up without any previous experience playing or dming an rpg of any kind.
I don't have a problem introducing new players... I have a horrid time introducing new DMs, or even shifting players to DMing... This is where I think the RPG market has its biggest problem.
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If we replace the word "minis" with the word "tokens".. and delete the "item cards" line.. does that help?Indeed it does! You might also have to remove the word "custom" from the "dice" line to hit the price point you asked for... but yeah, that's the kind of thinking we're going to have to do here.
Hey, I'm okay with that! =)
I've adjusted my suggestion in the Paizo Blog post here. How does that suggestion suit you, Vic?
1. A book for players, with per-made Characters on Character sheets so that when they level up the Character after the beginners set they can just do that with out any trouble
2. A book for gamemasters with a few monsters in there so that if they finished the set and want to keep going before the get new books they can, not a lot but just some to keep the gamemasters book interesting. Gamemasters are going to need the most care, this is the really job of RPGs players are easy.
3. Tokens or even paper minis with a code to down load copies of them on the web sight (get them on the sight and paper minis keep costs down) or both some tokens in the set with a code to down load some paper minis
4.A flip mat with a Dungeon on one side and either a town or a Forest, and maybe some of the Gaming Paper. A unique flip mat would be really neat but you could just put any of the flip mats in there, but the Dungeon is almost a a essential.
5.A bunch of cheat sheets for basic stuff like attack rolls, Just laying out all the basic rolls on a Sheet of paper that can be photocopied (or more downloading) What and when to make a Save, I think you get the idea.
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I assume this product needs to have as wide appeal as possible including teen, WoW (or similar) players, 4E and other and transitioning adult market - so it has to include expected traditional elements as well as diversity and the pathfinder twist from the off.
Probably most core races with some pathfinder twist options included, though half-elf and halfling both seem droppable. Half-Orc allows for angsty teen/outsider style feel as well as mature dark gaming and gnome is possibly more larger than life than halfling and more arty.
Streamlined Classes: Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Elementalist Wizard, Summoner.
Sample characters at first level - including all races and classes - in very playable builds.
Links to other sample characters and higher level characters on the Paizo site.
Include a leaflet/card for each class explaining all the features of that class.
Separate spell books for the wizard and the cleric players. Possibly these cut down spell books could be downloads.
Strong introductory module - perhaps Crypt of the Everflame and mat - or perhaps mat and link to free adventure on Paizo site - or perhaps though a sign up token.
GM reference sheets/cards.
Some of these things/extras might be available from the site through sign-up.
Have a separate section of the forum for this product.
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I can't gift wrap a PDF and give it to my cousins or nephews for Christmas.
As I said in my earlier post: The intro box should have a gift certificate for a free PDF of the full rules. But get them hooked on a real product, not on a PDF. Who gets excited about a PDF as a kid? My own children are very meh about any PDF I own but if we get a new gaming book or I print up a book, they're all over it.
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The basic sets tend to focus on combat which is good but I would like to see a booklet that focuses on non combat. Perhaps Sandpoint could be used as a base for the new heroes. It is developed and as an added bonus has goblins lurking. The role playing stuff could be game mastery style advice or maybe some mini plots designed to get the new players to explore the town. When my daughters played the original 3e set it was too much like a board game. The item cards, tokens, flip mats all sound great. Maybe a paper doll style character sheet to put equipment and treasure on.
Beloved Paizo,
Trust in your instincts as a publisher.
Paizo definitely styles itself as the spiritual caretaker of the game's tradition. The earlier editions of the game had a lot for basic/new users to latch onto. Paizo staff should spend some time searching your memory for your earliest game experiences, and try to include what worked there.
I really think that sticking to the spirit of what made us all play the game for the first time is the way to go.
There are some pitfalls that concern me, based on the evolution of the core rules...
The most important thing: Please get total novices involved as testers in your research and design process. Find people who are naive but interested, and have them try the system in a controlled fashion so that you still have some total newbs reviewing your final versions.
I'm quite interested in usability design. If there is one truism of that field it is this: You cannot trust yourself to know what is easy for a new user. You must always find a new user, and have them confirm it for you. If you rely on your own expertise as designers and developers, you will miss the mark. Anyone who knows the RPG industry can easily think of two or three games that failed to include crucial information in an initial release! (this is especially true for "entry" products like this one, which regularly leave gaps when transitioning from the larger ruleset. I've seen it many times.)
This same kind of feature blindness came up in several places in the Core Rulebook (leveling characters, treasure generation...). The most basic and obvious features of the game are the first thing that "lifer" professionals in the industry overlook. It is vital to understand that all of the domain knowledge that makes a good RPG designer undermines the perspective necessary to design for new users. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. Even the greatest designers need outside perspective, and "outside" in this case means "Has never played an RPG", no pretending.
Start finding your test newbies NOW. You will need a dozen of them or more, and you can't find them through the website. Worse yet, once you use a test newb for feedback, they are no longer naive and you can't use them again! Arg! If you design what you think is right for new users, then show it to new users and get feedback, you will probably be SHOCKED at what was omitted.
I'm really excited to see you all working on this, and I'm looking forward to the results.
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The title of this thread is Pathfinder INTRO game. It should be for those who don't know anything about RPGs. Probably for kids.
The needs for a rules-light system are much different than an introduction. A rule-light would have a lot more material, and would not need a sample module or how to run a game.
Highlights of my suggestions:
Note - this may be much more simplified than Paizo is looking for. It's probably best for kids.
No box.
two softcover books - one players, one GM
separate beginner's set for basic rpg materials
The book should have pages in the back that can be photocopied, such as character sheets, maps, paper minis, and a GM tracking sheet. Paizo.com should have a free pdf file of these for printing, which is easier for many people than photocopying.
The player's guide would only have the (simplified) character sheet.
My suggestion:
* A players' softcover book
* A GM's softcover book (will be bigger than the players)
* A separately packaged "beginner's set"
Having them separate keeps the cost down for players who already have all these basic materials and want to run it for younger or inexperienced players. It also allows the players to get their own dice, which is fun.
the beginner's set (without the book) would include:
- a plain flip-mat
- a set of dice
- four minis for PCs - one fighter, one caster of each sex
pewter, plastic, or tokens with iconic art i.e. Valeros,
Merisiel, Kyra, Ezren
The book:
Four classes: Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard
Three races: Human, Elf, Dwarf (As much as I love gnomes & halflings,
the rules for small characters are too complicated for this game)
Each class comes with its own stats - no rolling or point-buy.
Each race adds their bonuses/minuses to the stats
Pare down the classes!
In general, dump any class features that require complicated rules - such as armor training, which requires armor check penalty rules.
Have a couple feat trees as options for the different classes.
Have a couple pre-made spell lists for the Clerics and Wizards. Simplicity and awesomeness are important.
Have a couple class options for all the different abilities. Choose domains with easy powers/spells, or simplify them.
Wizards should be able to choose arcane bond or familiar - give sample stats for a raven or cat.
Keep it at levels 1-4. Include a sample of each class at each level. Cutting it off at 4th level prevents the need for 3rd level spells.
****
In the back would be pages that could be photocopied. They could include:
sample maps with 1" squares that represent 5', including those
from the module. Include a small dungeon, forest, and a street
paper minis of the bad guys from the sample module
character sheet
DM tracking sheet (to help with initiative, hit points of pcs &
monsters, and any effects)
Offer only the character sheet in the player's guide.
Offer these for sale on Paizo.com as free pdfs. I normally don't advocate free pdfs, because nothing is free, but these are very simple and will already be printed in the book.
In the GM's guide:
How-to run a game tutorial.
Simplified rules for spells and combat.
(Dump skills - they aren't necessary and they lower the creativity of the players.)
A module using these simplified rules. Have it be full-length, with all the Paizo awesomeness. Reuse art. Use the maps that will be in the back.
A short how-to draw your own maps
Tips on making your own campaign.
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Just repeating my sentiments from the other thread, but:
Keep all the core races, if in simplified forms.
Cutting them down, especially to the old human/elf/dwarf/halfling combo would be as arbitrary as bringing back level limitations by race. Sure it matches the LotR theme and harkens back to the early editions, but the game has long moved past that, and potential gamers today are far from restricted to LotR in their exposure to fantasy. There will certainly be potential gamers out there who orcs and gnomes would be greatly appealing, and cutting them out is only going to reduce the pull of the Intro set.
Cutting them out because they don't match LotR or, even worse, because the early editions didn't have them and you're going that route to harken back to that even though the people who that would appeal to are already gamers and already have their games(several in fact), would be a misstep.
And yes, the half-orc "backstory problem" is easily fixed without making up some contrived nonsensoleum story.
"Not all orcs are bad. And when an orc and a human love each other very much..."
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I agree with nearly everything in this post... I've run children's games as well as games for new gamers and all of the things that Capt. D has listed hold true.
I asked some of my players and some players from other groups. Nearly all of them, even the 4e lovers, pretty much agreed as well.
For new players the entire goal should be simplicity and fun. The more stuff they have to remember during gameplay the quicker they will loose interest and possibly never return to the table.A few posters have stated that they don't think Paizo ought to create a set of rules that is for a less strenuous system, but rather try for some high-gloss, easy to digest intro game that can attract the younger generation. IMHO I don't think that these games necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.
You can simplify the rules, a lot, and still keep them completely compatible with the core game.
I'm looking at this from the POV of teaching new players or kids that are too young to grasp the core rules. The intro-game should not be geared towards existing players. Sure we should be able to have fun with it, if we are the ones using it to teach the game, but the new and/or casual player should be 99.9% of the focus.Seems to me that Paizo's strength is their writing. Their adventures and support material are top-notch. The rules were built on the shoulders of a preexisting system. Why not just pare them down a bit (back to many of Capt. D's suggestions) and use the result as both a complete game, in and of itself, as well as a tool used to introduce / lure the new gamer to the table? The existing core rule book could be the natural extension or "next step", should the player be interested in taking it.
A complete, rules-lite (to over use an OSR term) PF game, with which you could jump in and play any of the PF material (past, present and future) would be a massive win for the company as well as the community.
I've never been disappointed in a Paizo products. If anyone can create a completely compatible, rules lite game. I think they can.
I haven't played the new 4e Red Box, but from what I've heard it is extremely simple, but still compatible with 4e. If they can do it with 4e, they can do it with PF.Something that would be portable enough to fit in a small shoulder bag (Digest-sized books anyone?),
Digest-sized books, similar to the new Essentials books would be a "dream come true". I hate lugging a bunch of big books around and I despise trying to reference rules on a computer screen.
I've lost my youngest daughter's interest due to the complexity of the game. She loves imagining each scene, the NPCs and how her character interacts. But when it comes to selecting spells or pouring through a long book in order to look up a description of something, she's done. My eldest has a better attention span and is much more patient. I don't think that these two are corner cases either, probably quite the opposite in fact.
I have older players with the same problems.
Why not make a game that allows them to imagine right away, rather than directing them to learn rules first? I'm not adverse to rules...I'm adverse to pausing play for any reason. Long character creation w/ too many choices, huge long lists of feats, skills, spells, etc. seem to kill the initial desire. While this may appeal to many, it's not an inducement, and is often an impediment to others.
People want simple, fast and fun. The more complex you make it, the more they wonder why they aren't just playing PS3, WoW or 4e Essentials.