No it's not. APL +3 is consider an epic encounter. APL +4 is off the chart and leads to dead characters if not TPK. Now high stats, maximum optimization of characters, and/or more wealth than recommended can alter this but if you play a 15 pt build with character aren't optimized with appropriate wealth by level then the APL +4 encounter is killer.So if your party of say... a level 10 fighter, a level 10 rogue, a level 10 wizard, and a level 10 cleric fights a party of level 10s who are fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric your party is guaranteed to lose? If so that makes my point better than I could.
Now if you simply meant that it's dangerous that's the whole point. Most of the deaths that occur in a campaign are going to occur when fighting your equals, because that's what CR + 4 actually represents.
A mirror of your own party would be 4 CR -1 individuals. CR 9 for one of them, or CR 13 for the set. An epic encounter, with about 50% success rate. Look at that fighting your own mirror image gives you a 50/50 chance of winning. That sounds about RIGHT to me.
Mirror Matches are generally something that has been actively discouraged by the rules since the advent of 3.0 (and they had problems even back in the day). Yes they are fun but unfortunately Humanoid NPCs built to equal the PCs (same point buy, similar equipment load out) have 2 major gameplay problems
1)Unless the party is at 100% resources and has a prep advantage (divinations, pre-combat buffing) this actually favors the NPCs because they have no missing powers and the action economy will be the same. It's not a guaranteed TPK but the likelihood of a TPK is actually pretty high. Basically one "team" will reach a combat advantage and then the action economy will snowball and they will be wiped. A coin flip of heads we die, tails they die is honestly a pretty stupid encounter.
2)Mirror Match NPCs have way, way more portable wealth than they should if you go by the x number of encounters per level. That means if the PCs win they've generally doubled their effective wealth. This of course leads to more and more imbalanced encounters in the future as the PCs are actually overequipped thus raising their effective party level.
Monsters work better as potential antagonists mainly because more of their combat effectiveness is inherent in their physical form and it can't be looted to boost PC effectiveness.
CR+4 Solo monsters are doable given sufficient prep time because the action economy generally favors them and the low penalty of mid-to-high level death means that even if the PCs have several PC deaths they can generally recover. Due to monster defenses (particularly on dragons and some outsiders) and average damage output the ability of the PCs to recover from a party death can severely curtailed though. This can lead to a death spiral for the rest of the party as critical party resources get removed from play.
I'm not saying that CR+4 isn't doable, in some cases they can even be easy encounters, but that the percentage of TPKs from CR+4 encounters can be frustratingly high for long term campaigns.
For the opposition, assume the most vanilla of 10th level fighter defensive gear, costing less a total of about 11K (out of 62K WBL, leaving 51K for his stat items, misc nice things, and BFS):
+1 full plate
+1 insight AC Ioun stone
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armorDex 13, Dodge feat.
No shield (since he's most likely a TH...
I've never heard of a 10th-level fighter only having +1 gear. That seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth isn't he using all of his starting funds to get better gear?
What is the point of posting an example if it isn't at all realistic?
I don't think he's necessarily far off the mark. The Magus I statted up at 10 with expected wealth had a +2 armour and Ring of Protection, but her Amulet of Nat Armour was still +1 and she didn't have the Ioun stone, so for an estimate, that's pretty good. She would have had more if her +2 armour wasn't Mithral, granted. The rest she spent mainly on a Belt of Giant Strength +4, +2 weapon, and a +3 Cloak of Resistance (5000 for +1 to saves was worth more than 6000 for +1 nat armour).
You could look for the Fighterman vs. balor thread describing the chances that a single-classed fighter with standard WBL gear could one-round a balor. It was an interesting read.After all a level + 4 encounter could very easily end up with something like 'as many Balors as there are players'. At which point you really do need to be able to go one on one, and win. Because that's what you are doing.There's one name for the Balor One-to-one encounter in any game where the players weren't supplied by Monty Haul... it's called a TPK. That's not a baseline encounter... that's a freak of gaming that's way off the curve.
It's also a good example of how just relying on CR to design encounters can result in a total game meltdown.... and the limits of theorycraft.
HERE is said thread, although note it's actually 2 rounds, and it wasn't so much to prove that a Fighter could solo a Balor but more to prove that Fighters were capable of being relevant in combat at high levels.
For the opposition, assume the most vanilla of 10th level fighter defensive gear, costing less a total of about 11K (out of 62K WBL, leaving 51K for his stat items, misc nice things, and BFS):
+1 full plate
+1 insight AC Ioun stone
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armorDex 13, Dodge feat.
No shield (since he's most likely a TH...
I've never heard of a 10th-level fighter only having +1 gear. That seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth isn't he using all of his starting funds to get better gear?
What is the point of posting an example if it isn't at all realistic?
He's assuming a good percentage of the WBL will be consumed in paying 18k for the +3 weapon and 16k for the +4 strength belt or +2 physical perfection belt (which would boost AC by 1). Add in 2k for a +1 strength bow for ranged combat (it still happens) and 9k for cloak of resistance +3 and it's pretty easy to see why a bog standard offense focused fighter is going to hover in the AC 25-27 range.
Transferring that wealth to AC can improve his durability because power attack shifts to being a bad monster tactic again but honestly most players seem to prefer the more active role of good offense beats good defense.
For the opposition, assume the most vanilla of 10th level fighter defensive gear, costing less a total of about 11K (out of 62K WBL, leaving 51K for his stat items, misc nice things, and BFS):
+1 full plate
+1 insight AC Ioun stone
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armorDex 13, Dodge feat.
No shield (since he's most likely a TH...
I've never heard of a 10th-level fighter only having +1 gear. That seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth isn't he using all of his starting funds to get better gear?
What is the point of posting an example if it isn't at all realistic?
Could fit NPC wealth adding in a magic weapon. For a PC though they'd have a pretty nice sword at 51,000 GP. That's +5 sword at 10th.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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For the opposition, assume the most vanilla of 10th level fighter defensive gear, costing less a total of about 11K (out of 62K WBL, leaving 51K for his stat items, misc nice things, and BFS):
+1 full plate
+1 insight AC Ioun stone
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armorDex 13, Dodge feat.
No shield (since he's most likely a TH...
I've never heard of a 10th-level fighter only having +1 gear. That seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth isn't he using all of his starting funds to get better gear?
What is the point of posting an example if it isn't at all realistic?
He's assuming a good percentage of the WBL will be consumed in paying 18k for the +3 weapon and 16k for the +4 strength belt or +2 physical perfection belt (which would boost AC by 1). Add in 2k for a +1 strength bow for ranged combat (it still happens) and 9k for cloak of resistance +3 and it's pretty easy to see why a bog standard offense focused fighter is going to hover in the AC 25-27 range.
Transferring that wealth to AC can improve his durability because power attack shifts to being a bad monster tactic again but honestly most players seem to prefer the more active role of good offense beats good defense.
Exactly.
My point wasn't to present an ideal AC-buffed fighter. In fact, it was the opposite.
It was to note that, without any pretense of being focused on AC defense (high DEX + armor training, high-value armor, going with W&S instead of THF/TWF/archery, any AC-boosting feats beyond Dodge), a bog-standard vanilla 10th-level THF fighter facing a typical melee-focused CR 10 monster is going to get missed a goodly part of the time, approaching 50/50 if the monster is power attacking.
If a fighter actually invests in defense, of course, it could get a lot better, to the point where CR 10 opponents are having a hard time hitting with less than their best attacks (making PA much less viable for the monsters unless combined with Vital Strike, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, or other tricks where their top attack bonus is used). Even a creature like the bebilith, where all attacks get the same attack bonus, is only hitting Basic Fighter Guy on a 10 if power attacking, a 6 if not.
If Basic Fighter Guy got a 14 Dex, +2 full plate and a +2 heavy shield (which still puts his AC-related WBL investment at about 18K, less than 30% of WBL (leaving 44K for other gear) and takes Shield Focus, he's now running an AC of 32. He hasn't gone all in for defense, but he's more defense-oriented than Basic Fighter Guy; he's Basic Shield Fighter Guy.
At AC 32, the best attack listed for any of the referenced CR 10 bashers, the fire giant's first greatsword attack, is only hitting 50% of the time with no power attack. If the dragon power attacks, it needs a 16 to hit with the bite, 17 with claws, and natural 20 with wings and tail. Suddenly its Flyby true strike Power Attacking Vital Strike bite is looking like a pretty good option (though it can only do it a couple of times).
The bebilith armor-peeling attack is still dangerous to Basic Shield Fighter Guy, but needing a 13 to hit without PA the chance of success goes down quite a bit (as it needs to hit with both claws, then win a CMB check).
What the tipping point is between enough defense to stand up and enough offense to make a difference is the crux of the argument, but I'd argue that the slider bar for making a credible AC defense isn't as far to the fringe as others might argue.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Could fit NPC wealth adding in a magic weapon. For a PC though they'd have a pretty nice sword at 51,000 GP. That's +5 sword at 10th.For the opposition, assume the most vanilla of 10th level fighter defensive gear, costing less a total of about 11K (out of 62K WBL, leaving 51K for his stat items, misc nice things, and BFS):
+1 full plate
+1 insight AC Ioun stone
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armorDex 13, Dodge feat.
No shield (since he's most likely a TH...
I've never heard of a 10th-level fighter only having +1 gear. That seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth isn't he using all of his starting funds to get better gear?
What is the point of posting an example if it isn't at all realistic?
Buying a flat-out +5 weapon, no special abilities, is actually a good tactical choice in PF, as it voids all DR against you except for /- and poke/stab/bonk. No need to worry about alignments or metals. Also, the hefty attack roll bonus gives you more flexibility to use tactics that impose an attack roll penalty (PA or the "XYZ Assault" feats in the APG).
Those special abilities are terribly tempting, and if you guess right they are great, but there is certainly something to be said for the straight-up +5 that works against everybody, never need to worry about lethal/nonlethal, damaging yourself, or energy resistances, especially given it is going to outstrip the "+1 special property weapon + GMW" trick until you get to 20th level.
More likely, though, as others have said, it would probably be +3 weapon, +4 STR item, +3 cloak, and maybe a few incidentals.
An underrated choice is also the ring of minor spell storing - pop in a shield and mirror image for your THF/TWF fighter and you're good to go. It's 18K, so pricey for midlevels, but not break-the-bank pricey and very versatile.
False. You do not need to keep skills maxed. Look at skill DCs, and what they do in game. By the time you have 5 ranks in accrobatics you are better than most olympic athletes. 5 points in a knowledge/profession skill shows that you are an expert in the field. You can split skill ranks up. The system was designed that way. That is why DCs are so trivially low.That might be... but then you're admitting that the skill monkey as a class focus is worthless, which exposes yet another unerlying system issue.
Actually, it proves the exact opposite IMO. Skill monkeys can become like gods in their skill of choice by mid levels trivially. By level 5, you can be doing things that extra-plannar beings will take note of with a good role (DC40 perform, for example). My point was that non-skill focused characters do not need that level of specialization to be good at a skill. A fighter with 1-2 ranks in proffession(soldier) is sufficient to command armies. If he gets 5 ranks, he will be one of the best in the area and be known for his proffessional skill. 10 ranks, and you are one of the best in the world. The fighter does not need to keep it maxed, because the player does not need to be the best in the world at everything he does. Some players can keep the skills they want maxed, and that option is there, but that level of focus comes at a cost.
Director of Games
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This thread is all over the place, and not really even talking much about the magus anymore. As of this post, there are 10 other posts on this page and the magus is only mentioned once.
Yeah. The playtest forums are not really the place to debate Master Craftsman and a host of other issues.
This thread is locked.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing