I'm new to Pathfinder and RPing, but I've read my way around a good bit. My RP group alternates between two games.
In one game, I get to play a Druid. I wasn't sure it was a very 'me' sort of class - I recycle, and I like animals, but I'm not what you'd call preoccupied with Nature - but it is AWESOME. The spell list may not be extensive, but it's full of fun options, and I can trade every day. I can be CREATIVE, but I don't seem to get in other people's way, either. (Perhaps because I can always swap a prepared Entangle for a SNA, so I never have to 'sit out,' just because my preps would trip up allies, too).
In the other game, I play an aberrant Sorceress. Initially, I was way more excited about this character than the Druid, and I obsessed over my list of spells-known, well, *obsessively.* I had grandiose plans about Battlefield Control and synergizing with my friend the Bard and enabling my friend the Rogue and choosing spells that fit my character concept. It was going to be AWESOME. But although I think I've generally been a help to the group, it's not working out the way I pictured.
When I first told our GM, in casual conversation, that I had now read all the classes and had decided I wanted to be a Sorcerer, he got very excited and told me how I'd be spamming Fireballs all the live-long day. This was not what I had in mind, at all. I tried to tell him, but he kind of wouldn't listen to me. To this day, he still says, 'Wait until you can cast Fireball!' When Fireball comes, everything changes, apparently.
But I wanted to be a weirdo Battlefield Controller. (Grease! Web! Walls! Spider Climb!) And perhaps, in part, *because* of my GM's insistence that Sorcerers exist to burn people alive, I've so far resisted direct damage.
Now I'm not so sure. My fellow PCs and I are at level 4. I've just developed the ability to retrain spells every other level. If I want to change horses in midstream, now is the time.
It's not that I doubt Battlefield Control is important - I don't - it's my very limited number of choices combined with a group that a) needs doesn't seem to like my interference, and b) might need somebody to dish out punishment more than, well, do clever, fun things.
Consider:
1. Battlefield Controls typically impose potential inconveniences on allies as well as the intended inconveniences on enemies. I take care to place my spells as carefully as I can (and have learned to avoid awesome-sounding spells with huge range, because I know my allies don't like the idea of hanging back, letting me soften up their opponents for them), but characters move around, and I can't always ensure that the Grease spell I laid down to stop some phalanx of baddies skewering my friend isn't going to get in my friend's way a few rounds later. So far, my friends have been hesitant to accept that slight inconvenience is part of the package deal, and that they're getting benefits out of my actions, as well as possible detriments. Plus, when I cast a spell like Grease that gives bonuses to attack affected targets - prone targets, targets that lose their Dex bonus to armor class while trying to move across the space - my friends tend to ignore the opportunities and hit whatever they like instead. I refuse to boss my friends around and tell them how to play (they already *know* they would get a bonus if they did hit the prone guy) but I can't say it's especially gratifying for me.
2. On account of a relatively large party, our GM has decided to avoid plotting battles on squares. It's supposed to create more descriptive, freeform conflicts, but it also means that some of the spells I took in order to help, say, the Rogue achieve sneak-attack are now redundant. The Rogue can just say: 'I stand somewhere that I am flanking him and shoot him in the face,' and it hardly matters whether I made him Invisible or not. Creating or mitigating against difficult terrain now seems moot. I'd like to make Webs when I finally get to Level 3 spells, but finding the anchor points and specifying the exact extent of the Web will be very difficult to do without squares and pictures.
3. Knowing so few spells means sometimes I feel like I've nothing to contribute at all. Even the most versatile Battlefield Controls depend on setting and circumstance (and your enemies' good saves). Learning only one spell at a time with a Sorcerer's staggered spell progression means I often *can't* have several available spells with diversified saves. Right now, I know Grease, Mage Armor, Enlarge Person (bloodline spell), Ray of Enfeeblement (retrained from Color Spray), and Invisibility. Ray of Enfeeblement wasn't in my original plan, but it made me feel less useless. I have scrolls of other Battlefield Controls - like Obscuring Mist, Gust of Wind and my new favorite (though I haven't got to use it yet) Create Pit.
4. I am interested in Touch attacks on account of my bloodline, though I haven't encountered any very thrilling ones at my level. Buffing spells are almost always useful, but as I can't retrain more than one spell every two levels, I can't take on too many spells that will shortly become obsolete.
5. I won't go into detail, but so far our group seems to fail to bring the pain. We're all still alive, which is certainly a good sign, but we don't have anybody that does truly explosive damage - arcane, divine or melee.
My questions, therefore:
1. Is it time to become a Glass Cannon? If I hang in there and take the kinds of spells I originally wanted, will it get more fun as I get to higher levels?
2. Is there life after Fireball? Can being a Glass Cannon be better than spamming Fireball all day? What 'blast' spells are fun to use? Will I have the same problems with energy resistance and lack of versatility that I've been having with saves and lack of versatility?
3. Can a sorcerer ever be a good Battlefield Controller? I'm not excited by the flavor of wizards, though I'd be hard-pressed to explain my disinterest. I like the wackiness of Sorcerers, but I want to be useful, too. Is a Sorcerer just too limited a class to be good at more strategic casting? Should I just not play one next time, regardless of exciting flavor, if I want to be an effective support caster?
Well, that will have to do. (Too long, already!) Many thanks for any input...
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I prefer wizards because they are more flexible than sorcerors. With a sorceror you are going to need to pick the right spells pretty much from the get go and as there are certain spells that are just more necessary than others for combat effectiveness (magic missile, mage armor, etc) you end up with, in my experience, less variety. The bloodline help mitigate this, but not completely.
The problem with the control spells is that when they are useful, they are very useful, but they are not universally applicable in every situation. They can, as you note, hinder your side as much as the other. Sorcerors are more useful than wizards in doing direct damage but less useful as controllers because of their lack of flexibility. That is my take on them anyway.
That being said, my advice is to try for a balance. At each level of new spells, pick your first from damage dealing spells. This is going to, after all, be the one you likely use the most. Then pick the rest based on the flavor you are going for. As for which spells are better; it depends on what you like and how you think. Fireball is generally better than lightning bolt at hitting a large group but lightning bolt gives you more precision.
Fireball is an extremely overrated spell.
It's fun as heck to cast at the right time, but the list of better spells at equal or lower level is a long one.
If you want to be a battlefield controller, you're in the right game. Wizards (and to a less flexible extent Sorcerers) do that in Pathfinder. They are not the best at providing direct damage, but rather they enable the direct damage dealers to completely dominate.
Consider the effects of Haste and Slow on the battlefield at mid levels with your large party. The extra attacks from each frontliner will very quickly exceed the value of a fireball in most situations.
It sounds like you have good instincts on this matter. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.
(oh yeah, take grease)
1. Is it time to become a Glass Cannon?
No.
2. Is there life after Fireball?
Yes. Fireball sucks.
3. Can a sorcerer ever be a good Battlefield Controller?
Yes. As a sorcerer, the first few levels are ... bad. But after 5 or so, it slowly comes together. Later, you can freely choose if you want a Wall Of Whatever, a fog cloud, or maybe some SoD...
The issue to seem to be having is that you are trying to do too many things.
A Sorcerer can be a great battlefield controller, a decent touch attacker, a blaster, a mind controller, a buffer, or any other number of potential things, but he can't do all of them or even a few of them, and he definitely can't do it all at 4th level.
Just hearing that you have any buff spells at 4th level means I think you aren't focusing enough.
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My advice:
Always have a backup spell or two. Magic missile is actually a good one for sorcerers, especially after 3rd level. Sure, it does piddly damage to few targets, but it pretty much always hurts and it always hits. Bypasses DR, incorporeal... lots of nasty stuff like that. You have enough spells per day that you can afford to use them on little spells like this sometimes. It's not a good 'Plan A' spell, but it can definitely fall into place as a decent 'Plan C' or 'Plan D' spell. A wand of magic missile, if you can manage to get one, means you are never useless, unless you're fighting something immune to magic missile. Which is actually very, very rare. The other level 1 damage spell I can recommend is shocking grasp, but this is much more situational, and a wand of shocking grasp is actually pretty useless. You would have to learn the spell.
Keep grease. Start using it in different ways - you can always use it under enemies, naturally, but if somebody starts grappling the fighter you cast it on the fighter. Now he's really hard to grapple. If there's a bad guy with a terrific weapon, you can cast it on the weapon. They might drop it instantly and anybody else should have an easy time disarming him. Grease is useful in many, many situations and you ought to keep it forever.
If you can buy scrolls and wands, forget mage armor. A wand of mage armor is really cheap and lasts for pretty much forever, and it'll free up an additional spell slot. Even scrolls are cheap enough to use since each one lasts an hour.
Invisibility is actually a great spell, so I think you should keep it, especially for the rogue in the party. Even if he's flanking, catching the enemy flat-footed and gaining an untyped +2 to hit is awesome. It's also useful in many 'soft RP' situations, where you want to do something stealthy or sneaky (especially if somebody needs to accompany the rogue). Many a deadly encounter can be skipped with clever use of invisibility.
My favorite battlefield control spell at first level is silent image. There is no save unless the enemy interacts with it, and it can block vision and/or create illusory obstacles that they don't want to interact with. If you have the message cantrip, you can tell all your friends that it is an illusion. The only bummer is that you need to concentrate on it for it to work. Get scrolls of this, and a wand if you can.
Scorching Ray is an excellent spell for any spell caster. Even in you're going to be a battlefield controller primarily, scorching ray is an amazing backup damage spell. It's a ranged touch that does lots of damage, and there's no way to save out of it. The only defense is fire resistance.
In conclusion:
Wands are your friends. If you can get a wand of mage armor and a wand of silent image, I recommend it. A wand of magic missile wouldn't hurt, either.
Is it time to become a Glass Cannon? No, I don't think so. But if your group is having trouble dealing damage then I think you should figure out a good way to resolve that. And even a battlefield controller needs a way to deal some damage, once in a while, so pick up a few damage spells or buff spells. Even sorcerers can have some spell diversity.
Is there life after fireball? Yes. Fireball isn't a bad spell; it's fun to cast and it actually does a fair amount of damage. Being such a prominent icon of D&D it actually has the dubious honor of being both overrated and underrated, simultaneously. There are lots of spells you can take instead. Haste, as has been pointed out, is an excellent buff spell that actually helps control the battlefield simultaneously. Stinking cloud and tiny hut create terrain, and stinking cloud has the additional bonus of making enemies puke their guts out. Very satisfying. But even if you start dealing more direct damage, there's a lot more than fireball. Magic missile, scorching ray, shocking grasp, and vampiric touch are all way fun to cast and they can really put the hurt on bad guys. Not even direct damage should be as simple as "I cast fireball. Again. For the fifth time. This fight."
Can sorcerers be effective controllers? I think so. But it's hard. Sorcerers need spells that are useful all the time, and some of the coolest control spells are very conditional. Make sure your control spells all have multiple functionality, and that'll help a lot. Try to play to your party's strengths, whatever those are.
I really need more information about your party if you want specific advice at all. I need to know if you have a cleric who always needs more time to buff, a rogue who never seems to hit enough, or a fighter who goes down too fast. You always want to have the right medicine for your disease, and by 4th level you should know this group fairly well.
Dang, that was long. Thanks for reading it, if you did.
First off, web is a 2nd level spell, so you could already take it. (instead of invisibility) Both are good though.
1)I don't think you should change what you want to do, but having a "blast spell" now and then can be good. I'm currently playing a 2nd level controller sorcerer, and I am having a blast. But I took the elemental bloodline, so I have the elemental blast ability I can fall back on, which at my level does decent enough damage. Control spells get much better and more universal as you get higher level. And when it comes to fireball, I recommend putting it on the back burner and take haste, slow, or stinking cloud. I think a sorcerer has to keep them selves a little bit versatile or you will find yourself in battles where you cant do anything. With your DM and his lack of game board, maybe focus on buff and debuffs over true battlefield control, unless he willing to work with you with your effects. If your group is unwilling to work with you to the point of you not having fun playing the character, maybe chalk it up that battle field control type character is not for this game and either retool this character or scrap it and make a new one.
2) There is more blast spells after fireball, but I cant really remember them. Blasting is fun recreational, but whenever a made a character suited for blasting I got bored. But some people love it. I find more enjoyment in doing the things that you want to do with your character, which is why i gravitate towards these classes, cleric and bards often.
3) I've only gotten to level 2, but I think a sorcerer diffidently can be just as good of a battlefield controller than other classes.
You might want to look at treantmonk's guide to wizards, and there is another guide about sorcerers that might help you out with alot of the questions your asking.
Invisibility is actually a great spell, so I think you should keep it, especially for the rogue in the party. Even if he's flanking, catching the enemy flat-footed and gaining an untyped +2 to hit is awesome. It's also useful in many 'soft RP' situations, where you want to do something stealthy or sneaky (especially if somebody needs to accompany the rogue). Many a deadly encounter can be skipped with clever use of invisibility.
...and if you cast it on yourself and buff, you don't loose invisibility. Sometimes you can cast a control spell to if you think outside the box.
I don't think you ever need to be a "Glass Cannon"
Really. Who's character is it? Yours? Good. Play the role of a modern day Combat Engineer: Area Denial, Damage Mitigation and overall force multiplier.
Think about the party you are in and how you can make it better. Druid's pet getting torn to pieces every fight? Mage Armor that doggy! Invisibility as stated is amazing! Both from a pure mechanics perspective and for getting around those nasty fights. Web too is a great lowbie spell. If your allies are foolish enough to *not* wait for your battlefield prep, then so be it. Imagine how much less damage bad guys can do to your party when only half of them get into melee in the first turn (or second, or fifth...)! Now imagin how much more damage your allies can lay down when they are all flanking the now isolated lead elements of the enemy assualt. Waiting for favorable conditions is not only good sense, but it will help make the medic much happier, too!
In any event, the only real advice is to play the character that both helps the party and is one that you enjoy. If the DM can't see that, then *every single turn* ask him, "What should I do?" If he wants to run your character let him. In fact, go to the store in the middle of a fight to get the Funyuns... just let everyone know the DM has the Sorc's reins! (Don't actually do that last bit!)
Enjoy and show your silly party members that crowd control and battlefield control are much cooler and more effective than "fireball"
GNOME
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I don't think you especially need to be a blaster, but if you do then Scorching Ray is probably a better spell than Fireball (you can still use it in wooden buildings and verdant wilderness settings, it doesn't allow a reflex save for half, it's lower level).
There is a lot of good advice up-thread. If you want your party to love you, take Haste and Stinking Cloud.
Level 3 spells are when you start feeling useful but by now you should have enough cash for a wand that make you feel better (magic missile, auto-hit is always satisfying).
However, battlefield control implies a battlefield - if you're playing in the land of 'GM-(effectively)-teleports-everyone-wherever-he-thinks-would-be-fun' then there is no battlefield to control.
In this instance you have to talk to the GM.
Do you have to be fireballer? No, although since you GM is so focused on it don't expect too much help from that quarter.
Just remember the difference between a sorcer and a wizard. A sorcer sacrifice flexibility on the choice of spells for more spells and more flexibility when casting those spells. The limited number of spells you can know means that you need to pick one or two things to focus on, you won't have the spell selections for more than that.
I am not fully aware of the style of your GM, but if HE is excited about you getting fireball, then it's quite possible he is also planning to throw hordes of creatures at you so you can take creatures out with it.
It may also be that he doesn't know how to prepare fights for a savvy battlefield controller which is why you feel like you don't have enough to do.
I realize this doesn't solve your problem, but it's something I might bear in mind--and maybe even discuss further with your GM.
That said, a few other thoughts:
1. As an aberrant sorcerer, you always have your acidic ray to fall back on for zotting something if you run out of anything else.
2. Sure, I think it's always useful to have a couple blast spells handy--and I think it is at least more fun for a sorcerer than a wizard to blast because you do have so many spells to cast per day, whereas a wizard has to sacrifice fewer prepped spell slots. But you shouldn't feel you have to make them all blasty easy.
But I wouldn't retrain so much as as you level, just add in a couple blast spells as you gain more spells known. The spells you already have are good spells, and spells like grease usually remain useful throughout your adventuring career.
3. IF I were you, and I am not, but--I would personally choose the Aberrant Sorcerer because of the bonus to Polymorph subtypes. I would also note that this would be more frustrating at lower levels because probably the only polymorph spell you have right now is Alter Self (although that still nets you a boost to Dex or Str, IIRC). Soon you will be getting to Beast Shape and Elemental Body, etc. But it strikes me that the Aberrant Sorcerer seems to be designed to stymie opponents by unexpected tactics and being able to survive in close-ish combat, and I would focus on some buffing of self and party to go along with your polymorph tricks which will get all the cooler as you level. Less battlefield control, more party support, if that makes any sense.
4. Along with buffing yourself, I note that Aberrant sorcerers get a number of combat maneuvers for bonus feats. So for down the line... If your sorcerer has a good strength, I might consider being an unexpected CM master--cast Enlarge Person (a spell every sorcerer has) and start disarming or tripping the bad guys.... which is in fact a form of battlefield control. Or after you level a bit, take Improved Grapple and have fun with that in combination with your naturally extended Elemental Body spells. This isn't a surefire thing--sorcerers have low BAB so you will have to work toward it--but it could be a fun, unorthodox way of "controlling the battlefield" without fully filling up your spell list.
5. The most important thing when choosing spells is, "Do I think that's the most fun?" If the answer is yes, then take it.
I am not fully aware of the style of your GM, but if HE is excited about you getting fireball, then it's quite possible he is also planning to throw hordes of creatures at you so you can take creatures out with it.
It may also be that he doesn't know how to prepare fights for a savvy battlefield controller which is why you feel like you don't have enough to do.
I realize this doesn't solve your problem, but it's something I might bear in mind--and maybe even discuss further with your GM.
That said, a few other thoughts:
1. As an aberrant sorcerer, you always have your acidic ray to fall back on for zotting something if you run out of anything else.2. Sure, I think it's always useful to have a couple blast spells handy--and I think it is at least more fun for a sorcerer than a wizard to blast because you do have so many spells to cast per day, whereas a wizard has to sacrifice fewer prepped spell slots. But you shouldn't feel you have to make them all blasty easy.
But I wouldn't retrain so much as as you level, just add in a couple blast spells as you gain more spells known. The spells you already have are good spells, and spells like grease usually remain useful throughout your adventuring career.
3. IF I were you, and I am not, but--I would personally choose the Aberrant Sorcerer because of the bonus to Polymorph subtypes. I would also note that this would be more frustrating at lower levels because probably the only polymorph spell you have right now is Alter Self (although that still nets you a boost to Dex or Str, IIRC). Soon you will be getting to Beast Shape and Elemental Body, etc. But it strikes me that the Aberrant Sorcerer seems to be designed to stymie opponents by unexpected tactics and being able to survive in close-ish combat, and I would focus on some buffing of self and party to go along with your polymorph tricks which will get all the cooler as you level. Less battlefield control, more party support, if that makes any sense.
4. Along with buffing yourself, I...
I agree--Aberrant is also great at delivering touch range buffs and attacks thanks to its extended reach ability. I would think Fey would be a strong choice for controller since it gets a free Entangle and can use Laughing Touch when the opponent is one big boss rather than many mooks. In our last session, our Fey Sorcerer saved us getting hit by a Flame Strike and an Enervation by virtue of Laughing Touch (the GM mentioned that these were the spells that the enemies were preparing to cast on us but couldn't since they lost a round of actions).
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Well, that will have to do. (Too long, already!) Many thanks for any input...
I am ALWAYS grateful for a player who approaches the game as you are: not looking at the uber-optimal build but, instead, playing a role you feel would be fun. I hope your GM realizes how lucky he is... but if he doesn't, you'd be welcome at my table! :)
good stuff
+1.
Wellcome the the messageboards. :-)
At this level burning hand is actually good. Good vs. swarms etc.
Don't forgett glitter dust. One of the best spells in the game.
You want haste and fireball. Fireball is, as Lyrax pointed out, overrated and underrated, simultaneously so you want it but you don't want to use it all the time.
Stinking Cloud + Black Tentacles is fun and a great combination.
Dimension Door is a great utility spell. Help fighter get to the right spot.
You want shield and you should pick quicken spell at higher levels. If your DM let you use the new Favored Class Options from the AGP there is one that give human sorcerers more spells know....if you are human (gnome perhaps?).
Stuff like grease, glitter dust, haste and most wall spells, are all great spells.
Since you are a large party haste is probably a good spell at level 6. At level 7 you can pick fireball.
Anyway. Have fun, but make sure you read through the spell list.
Don't forgett, a quicken mirror imnage can save your day and glitterdust rocks.