"Anti-Paladin" is just too goofy and anachronistic a name to fit in a medieval fantasy. What would be better to call them?
I'm looking for something with verisimilitude. Something that I can imagine actually being uttered by a Medieval English-speaker. The two that are my favorite so far:
Blackguard: Actual medieval term for s violent criminal. But might possibly cause confusion with 3.5 prestige class.
Reaver or Reiver: Medieval term for a mounted raider or well-equipped robber.
Other possibilities I've seen:
Shadow Knight
Dark Paladin
Death Knight
Doom Champion
What do you think?
Yeah, I find it awkward when a name or title defines something by what it is NOT. Though "Dark Paladin" accomplishes the same thing, sadly.
I think the term Blackguard is free in Pathfinder. As you say, it is already in use in 3.5e, but it's rather silly to choose that prestige class at this point. That would be my choice.
"Anti-Paladin" is just too goofy and anachronistic a name to fit in a medieval fantasy. What would be better to call them?
Sith
Antipaladin is fine with me, but I guess Black knight would be my suggestion.
However the book is already out, so it's too late to change it now.
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Also remember the difference between the title of a character and a class name. Even though the class is named Anti-Paladin, that doesn't mean they're called that in-game. A fighter might be called a warrior, knight, guard, soldier and so on depending on his proffession and role; likewise, an anti-paladin will probably not fall under that name in-game.
The class name is just the name of a collection of rules, that's all. Of course, a cool and descriptive class name might do good to set the right athmosphere the first time you read about the class, but since you already know what a character built on this class might look like, it doesn't really matter what you call the class.
I find it odd that Paizo dislikes names like "sword mage" but has no problem with "anti-paladin".
That doesn't make sense to me.I'd call the class the "Reaver".
Its not really that odd. Antipaladin has been around since 1st edition. Plus, its not a "class name" technically, its an archetype name, so it doesn't really fall into the same "no multi-part, no compound name" naming convention scheme that Paizo wants to keep going.
Its not really that odd. Antipaladin has been around since 1st edition. Plus, its not a "class name" technically, its an archetype name,
Other than Anti-paladin being a class and not an archetype.
The only reason there is an Anti-paladin is the VERY heavy thread of 1st/2nd ed nostalgia running through the game.
There is pronounced dislike by at least James of having a Paladin of various alignments for X reason because it would be duplicitous but the Anti-paladin is exactly the inverse of the Paladin with all the same damn abilities, but inversed.
There is dislike for class names that are ridiculously simplistic and multipart, but here we have the Anti-paladin.
Making a distinction between class names and archetype names seems like sophistry to me.
As for your other argument (that 'antipaladin' has been around since 1st edition), that's only unofficial. The antipaladin for 1e was introduced in the Silver Best of Dragon iirc and that was never an official source. Officially, the antipaladin was introduced in 2e (again, iirc) as was many other "multi-part, compound" names.
The only argument which makes some sense to me is that the word "antipaladin" is iconic (but, then, so is 'bladesinger' and, instead, we're getting settled with the rather poor word choice 'magus').
Githyanki have "officially" had antipaladins since 1st edition, even when the NPC class wasn't "officially" supported anywhere else, since the Fiend Folio.
Other than Anti-paladin being a class and not an archetype.
You are correct. Its not an archetype. I was wrong. Its listed as an "alternate class," but its still not listed as its own class, so its a variation on a class theme rather than a new class itself.
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"Anti-Paladin" is just too goofy and anachronistic a name to fit in a medieval fantasy.
That that the term 'anti-pope' was actual common medieval lingo, I don;t see why anti-paladin seems anachronistic to you. It's actually perfect for the exact opposite of a class well-known holy warrior, and exactly the kind of thing people of the era would have used.
That that the term 'anti-pope' was actual common medieval lingo, I don;t see why anti-paladin seems anachronistic to you. It's actually perfect for the exact opposite of a class well-known holy warrior, and exactly the kind of thing people of the era would have used.
Yeah, not to mention "anti-Christ" as well. Adding something "anti" to something unholy to describe it doesn't seem that strange in context, but hey, everyone has their own tastes for naming conventions.
I just call em blackguards in my home games.
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I really think you're wrong about that. I don't remember the term 'antipaladin' in Fiend Folio. In fact, as memory serves, the githyanki were from the plane of Limbo, making a class which is inherently CE unlikely.Githyanki have "officially" had antipaladins since 1st edition, even when the NPC class wasn't "officially" supported anywhere else, since the Fiend Folio.Making a distinction between class names and archetype names seems like sophistry to me.
As for your other argument (that 'antipaladin' has been around since 1st edition), that's only unofficial. The antipaladin for 1e was introduced in the Silver Best of Dragon iirc and that was never an official source. Officially, the antipaladin was introduced in 2e (again, iirc) as was many other "multi-part, compound" names.
The only argument which makes some sense to me is that the word "antipaladin" is iconic (but, then, so is 'bladesinger' and, instead, we're getting settled with the rather poor word choice 'magus').
That was the Githzerai, who were minks. The githyanki were the ones on the astral plane who had red dragon mounts.
That was the Githzerai, who were monks.
... and there we may find our chaos monks!
Seems like the children of Gith like to break conventions...
If they were going to be as lazy with this class as they were, they should have at least saved space by simply telling us to reverse the polarity on the alignment, instead of printing out the class features of the paladin again and doing a find/replace on the alignment.
And I guess that "reversing the polarity" would also magically inform the GM of the exact rules for what to do with aura of courage, divine health, mercies, spell list, aura of resolve, code of conduct, and associates aspects of the class, which are a simple good/evil flip.
I like the anti-paladin!!
It's been called that forever, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I like the pet choice for the bond. Very nice.
I think "blackguard" is fine. Black Knight could also work, and has Arthurian flavor.
I have this vague sense that there is a specific term for a knight that fell out of favor with his liege, but I can't remember what it is for the life of me. And I could possibly be making it up.
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As a semi-grognard, I like the name. I can still remember all my players full of eagerness and dread after we got the Dragon Magazine with the original version of the class, because they knew what was eventually coming.
Bonus points if you remember Grond the Anti-Paladin...
Hint: He appears in the same publication as Bordeflak the Bolt Lobber...
I have this vague sense that there is a specific term for a knight that fell out of favor with his liege, but I can't remember what it is for the life of me. And I could possibly be making it up.Ronin?
Malory used "True Knight" for the good guys, so "False Knight." Knighthood was stripped by the ceremony called Degradation. So "Degraded Knight" also.
Baby-Punching Killin' Machine.
Eh, that sounds more like a Prestige Class. ;)
Okay, I always got those two confused. But I still don't remember the red dragon mount race being officially called 'antipaladin' in 1e.
From page 43 of the Fiend Folio:
"Githyanki progress as fighters, magic-users or fighter/magic-users; they have no ranger, monk, druid, or assassin class though illusionists are infrequently (5%) met and there is a form of anti-paladin class — the knight."
"Each castle will also contain 40 knights (anti-paladins of 9th level)[.]"
"1 knight: 8th-level anti-paladin"
"2 'gish': fighter/magic-users 4th/4th level"
Kobold Press
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I love the False Knight, which is so Mallory it hurts. Perfect for campaigns with that style, but it won't work as well anywhere else, more's the pity...
And that's sort of the anti-paladin for me. Very specific to a campaign. There's a flavor of them in my home campaign as well, with a name that works there and strikes fear in the hearts of honest citizens.
That name won't transfer.
"Anti-Paladin" is just too goofy and anachronistic a name to fit in a medieval fantasy. What would be better to call them?
I'm looking for something with verisimilitude. Something that I can imagine actually being uttered by a Medieval English-speaker.
You call them an anti-paladin, which is way more medieval english then any other suggestion listed in this thread so far. :p
Honestly, as someone else said, people used anti-pope and anti-christ and anti-whatever all the time.
Medieval Europe really wasn't that fancy of a place. :p
A facet of the prefix "anti-" often lost to the modern ear is that it can denote more than just opposition. For example, an anti-pope wasn't someone opposed to the pope. He was someone opposed to and offered as a replacement for the pope.
Thus, an anti-paladin isn't just the opposite of a paladin. He isn't just a paladin's arch-foe. He represents a perverse ideal that seeks to replace everything the paladin stands for with unfettered chaos and evil.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Creative Director
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I find it odd that Paizo dislikes names like "sword mage" but has no problem with "anti-paladin".
That doesn't make sense to me.I'd call the class the "Reaver".
Antipaladin isn't a class name, first of all—it's an archetype. And therefore we relax our strict standards a bit there. But also, the word "antipaladin" has been a part of the game for a LONG time; it's got a significant amount of nostalgia to it, and we like nostalgia.
We didn't name it the "blackguard" for the same reason we didn't name the magus "warlock." We didn't want to overwrite any existing 3.5 class or prestige class that, even if we didn't want to expand on that concept (in the case of the blackguard prestige class) or even if we couldn't expand on it (in the case of the closed-content warlock).
If we were positioning the antipaladin as its own base class, we would very likely have gone with a different name... but this never would have happened since the antipaladin isn't much more than a variant class that, without the paladin blazing the way, wouldn't need to exist.
I'm wondering what you're not agreeing with. :)
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Antipaladin isn't a class name, first of all—it's an archetype. And therefore we relax our strict standards a bit there. But also, the word "antipaladin" has been a part of the game for a LONG time; it's got a significant amount of nostalgia to it, and we like nostalgia.
As someone who had a favorite character who was an original Anti-Paladin, Paizo has my vote for the name. Perhaps if I can find my old character sheet from 1985 perhaps I can convert "Henry the Unpleasant" to the 21st century equivalent!
+1 paizo on your hindsight!
S.
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We didn't name it the "blackguard" for the same reason we didn't name the magus "warlock." We didn't want to overwrite any existing 3.5 class or prestige class that, even if we didn't want to expand on that concept (in the case of the blackguard prestige class) or even if we couldn't expand on it (in the case of the closed-content warlock).
This does raise a question.
Could we possibly see a blackguard in a Pathfinder adventure?
Bonus points if he's with or against an anti-paladin!
Don't forget antipasta.
Honestly, as someone else said, people used anti-pope and anti-christ and anti-whatever all the time.
Medieval Europe really wasn't that fancy of a place. :p
Antipapa/pope and Antichristus are from clerical latin, not medieval English. Antipasta is Italian.
The terms used for Antipope in medieval English and French would be "false pope" or "pretender pope." Most ordinary people wouldn't have really known about the Antichrist, since the book of Revelation was not that accessible unless you were very educated. The sects that did preach about were often heretical; the Catholic church focused on Satan or the Adversary as the villain of the Apocalypse.Anti-paladin might be OK, I think, since paladin(o) is Italian. But in Italian it might have seemed to mean "before the paladin (palace knight)."
None of this really matters in Golarion, though.
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Random ideas for holy champions of various alignments;
LG - Paladin, Paragon
NG - Champion, Guardian, Hero, Defender
CG - Crusader, Vindicator, Avenger
LN - Arbiter, Stalwart
N - ?
CN - Libertine?
LE - Conqueror, Tyrant, Despot, Martinet
NE - Villain, Blackguard, Knave, Malefactor, Caitiff
CE - Reaver, Mauler
I think in-game the best names would be "reaver" or "false knight" but for out-of-character discussion, anti-paladin is the most well-known term.
I know antipope and antichrist are old terms from Latin and Greek but they just weren't that well known amongst the general English-speaking population.
Antipasta is Italian.
Antipasto is Italian.