I've read a lot of commentary on the Magus; some want a full-BAB progression, some want bigger magic progression. I was wondering, how well does the Magus compare to the Fighter in a simple arms race.
The breakdown covers only levels 5 and 10; but it shows that the Magus is a pretty healthy melee participant (and brings a strong defensive line along with Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement, etc) - where the Barbarian has HP, the Fighter has AC, the Magus has magic to supplement his survival. Just because he is a caster does not mean that he has trouble in melee - the real problem here is that the Magus can burn-out of spells to give him the competitive edge. And that is what we know and love about casters all along.
Both builds below make use of power attack and get weapon focus, greater weapon focus and weapon specialization when available. Both focus on Strength, though the Fighter can focus more. The fighter is assumed to be using a one-handed weapon and shield (rather than sacrificing AC for more damage). Furthermore the Magus makes use of Arcane Strike.
Magus attack: = 9
Magus damage: = 10
Fighter attack: = 11
Fighter damage: = 13
Magus attack: = 16/11
Magus damage: = 19
Fighter attack: = 20/15
Fighter damage: = 19
The Magus actually equals damage of the Fighter at level 10 (provided he hits). Of course he hits less, but still, statistically this means the Magus lags not too far behind the Fighter in terms of expected damage per round. In isolation, however, the Magus has considerably more options to power up that the fighter would not have access to. For example a 10th level Magus could make use of haste and greater invisibility to offset the fighter's DPR, and dispel magic to debuff or counter methods the fighter may use to gain a magic-based edge in combat.
The Magus may not kill as fast as the Fighter, but I reckon in a 1v1 the smart money would still be on the Magus.
You completely forgot to include weapon training. At level 5 that's a +1 to hit and damage for the fighter, at level 10 +2.
You're using a one hander and a shield without using any shield bash feats. That's why the Magus seems to be doing so well.
Also, with the "emphasis on strength" there, you've made a Magus who can't cast spells. He's a fighter who's bad at fighting.
Also, with the "emphasis on strength" there, you've made a Magus who can't cast spells.
I'll disagree with this part.
Added the weapon training.
He still has 12 base Int +2 from item for a total of 14. He can cast all his spells.
I think people that look to the Magus and try to make a high-DC debuffer will despair. But if you keep your focus on getting the spells you need off, then you good to go.
Stat line:
Point buy 20:
16 str 14 Con 10 Dex 16 Int 9 Wis 7 Cha
Human +2 to strength:
18 strength.
You could also do:
18 16(+2) 11 10 7 7
Or
16, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8
16, 14, 14, 14, 9, 7
16, 15, 14, 14, 7, 7
16, 15, 14, 13, 9, 7
Here's your shield-bashing match-up. The Fighter dropped one modifier for strength to be able to afford the two-weapon fighting feats. His shield bashes hit for less than his main-hand attacks. The stats are now:
Hasted Magus: attacks 17/17/12 for +19 damage
Shield bashing Fighter: attacks 17/12 (main) 16/11 (shield) for +18 and +13 damage respectively
Expected damage (this assumes they have comparable ACs, I used 25 for the sake of getting results):
Magus: = 32.3
Fighter: = 31.25
A slight edge in damage for the Magus. And this does not take into account miss chance for the Fighter fighting a greater invisible, mirror-imaged, blurred, displaced opponent. The smart money is still on the Magus, at least in my books.
Um... I'm thinking your leaving stuff how that is pretty significant.
by 10th level the fighter can afford to haste himself, indeed if someone in the party casts haste since it's multi target the fighter will have it too.
Also you really should spell out how you are getting the bonuses you have posted as it helps others find the errors in your math.
Fighter Strength 18 with two weapon fighting is easy to do so we'll keep strength the same for both the fighter and magus:
fighter/magus
Bab 10/7
Strength 5/5 (magic item)
magic 2/4
Arcane strike 0/3
Power attack 6/4
Weapon Spec/greater focus 2/2(1)*doesn't have a feat at 10th level
Weapon training 2/2
Haste: +1/+1
BAB
Fighter 10+5+2-3+2+2+1= 20 - 2 (twf with a short sword and heavy bashing shield)
Magus 7+5+4-2+1+1 = +16
Fighter Attacks: 18/13/18/13
Magus Attacks 16/16/11
Fighter damage: 1d8+5+2+6+2+2/1d6+2+2+3+2+2= 1d8+17/1d6+11
Magus Damage: 1d8+5+4+3+4+2=1d8+18
As for level 10, are you seriously suggesting any martial character wouldn't have haste just because they can't themselves cast the spell? You are aware of the boots of speed aren't you not?
You do realize by RAW your not guaranteed to have those correct? You can not auto buy something just because you have the gold, not by RAW. Your GM may allow it but boots of speed you need to roll to see if ya can find em.
So no not all fighters have haste or the ability to gain haste
Eh by RAW ya got a 75% chance and only that, and only it the very largest cities. You simply can not assume you will be able to have everything you want.
Ah ya mean using the RAW rules for buying magic items is a GM making it difficult?
I think you are missing an important part of the damage equation. A friend of mine who enjoys fighters factors the to hit into the damage average. if you hit less often, your damage average is lowered. In other words a bonus to damage is < a bonus to hit.
This.
and also, I agree with seekerofshadowlight..
..when comparing two classes you can't factor in bonuses from additional classes!
''Hey, well, also there's like, ya know, a Bard Inspiring so like, X is now hitting more often for more damage, because, you know, you can pay a bard to follow you and sing yeah? At 10th? Right?''
..and lets also keep in mind that comparing two classes directly has it's own inherent flaws - for example, choosing which aspects to represent and the potential for discounting other benficial facets that are not directly related.
*shakes fist*
Ah ya mean using the RAW rules for buying magic items is a GM making it difficult?It's not actually a RAW rule preventing me, it's a RAW rule with a hidden assumption (only 1 city is visited).
..would this be the same flawed assumptions that assume all characters have access to haste at level 10?
*shakes fist*
Ah ya mean using the RAW rules for buying magic items is a GM making it difficult?It's not actually a RAW rule preventing me, it's a RAW rule with a hidden assumption (only 1 city is visited).
SO how many cities do you hit? How long does it take? It is allowed by RAW that you have unlimited time and unlimited means of travel to hit every major city in the world till ya find them?
No its not, your not assumed to be able to have anything you want. Boosts of speed are not assumed.
SO how many cities do you hit? How long does it take? It is allowed by RAW that you have unlimited time and unlimited means of travel to hit every major city in the world till ya find them?It's completely outside the RAW, it's part of the setting and social contract with the DM. But it doesn't need to take very long in a high magic setting, greater teleport and teleportation circles see to that.
This is an assumption.
No its not, your not assumed to be able to have anything you want. Boosts of speed are not assumed.But weapons and stat items are? :)
This is an assumption on the part of LoreKeeper for his comparison of the two classes. Yes it's not ideal, however since he's added minor magical bonuses I don't feel it's too flawed. Please note that I also do not take the comparison as 'truth' and I'm aware of the flaws of the comparison... and (damned netz..) yes, this is a personal opinion and an assumption on my part! :)
Still, it's not a bad comparison, for a given value of 'bad'.
However, it would be better if the comparison did not do so because, as you and seekerofshadow light have proved in this thread, different games/campaigns/groups award items at different rates and prioritise 'essential' items with equal variance.
This is an assumption on the part of LoreKeeper for his comparison of the two classes. Yes it's not idealIt's not even justifiable, exempt some items (ability boosters and weapons) for no apparent reason. Bring up RAW when the RAW just introduces arbitrary hoops which can be jumped in any number of arbitrary ways (as my hound archon example above shows).
It's stupid is what it is.
It's perfectly fine for his own personal comparison. He stated clearly the bonuses/factors he's factored into his comparison and presented them for us to read.
We are then free (obviously.. damned netz..) to choose wether we discount any or all of the data presented.
The true test of the value of his comparison (once again, the value *within the constraints he has outlined/detailed*!) is to prove his numbers wrong.
Personally I see a limited scenario where the Magus and Figher could do comparitive damage.
For the record, direct DPS comparisons of classes are, to my mind, fun for theory crafting exercises but not 'fair' (for a given value of.. aaaah you get the idea!) comparisons of a class's effectiveness at the table.
I think MrFishy would have one or two things to say about how to play an 'effective' character..
How about Two Handed Weapon fighter at 5th with an 20 in STR.
+5 BAB, +1 Magic, +1 WT, +1 WF, +5 STR = +13 to hit using Furious Focus
For 2D6 damage + 10 Str, +1 Magic, +1 WT, +2 WS, +6 PA =+20 Averge= 27
So this fighter hits 4 better than Magus and does almost twice as much damage. There is no comparison. This is what the fighter does. If you go sword and board the fighter does less damage but has much higher AC than the Magus at 5th. You're looking at 27 AC (Full Plate +9, Shield +2, Magic +2, Dodge +1, Dex +2, Shield Focus +1) vs the Magus AC 18 (Chain Shirt +4, Dex +1, Magic +1, Def +1, Dodge +1).
Of course the Magus has trick up his sleeve. Limited with them and they can bring the Magus up to the fighters level with a bit a of luck.
Guys why should the magues be on par with the fighter?
Guys why should the magues be on par with the fighter?
It depends on what we mean by 'on par' - on par damage wise? Well, a damaged focused magus should, seemingly be close, if only for a limited time. They're sacrificing much of the versatility their spell list offers.
Now, even when focused for pure damage, they still have more versatility than a fighter - so 'roughly the same damage output for a limited time' seems fair.
However, personally I'd ask - if your trying to build you Magus to be a fighter, why not play a fighter?
The Magus spell list offers a much more versatile approach to combat, with the potential for buffing, battlefield control and direct damage at range.
For example, last time I checked, Fighters couldn't fly!
So, a Magus build focused on damage should, to my mind, give a fighter a run for it's money for a limited time per day but not in produce the same damage as a fighter *consistantly or without cost in terms of perparation* due to the versitility their spells can provide.
For the record, direct DPS comparisons of classes are, to my mind, fun for theory crafting exercise but not fair comparisons of a classes effectiveness at the table.Of course they aren't, the Magus above all else is still a caster with bard progression so he wins the game compared to non casters ;)
I love my damned Bard!
..and my Bard/Summoner Gestalt more so!
:)
Um... I'm thinking your leaving stuff how that is pretty significant.
by 10th level the fighter can afford to haste himself, indeed if someone in the party casts haste since it's multi target the fighter will have it too.
Also you really should spell out how you are getting the bonuses you have posted as it helps others find the errors in your math.
Fighter Strength 18 with two weapon fighting is easy to do so we'll keep strength the same for both the fighter and magus:
fighter/magus
Bab 10/7
Strength 5/5 (magic item)
magic 2/4
Arcane strike 0/3
Power attack 6/4
Weapon Spec/greater focus 2/2(1)*doesn't have a feat at 10th level
Weapon training 2/2
Haste: +1/+1BAB
Fighter 10+5+2-3+2+2+1= 20 - 2 (twf with a short sword and heavy bashing shield)
Magus 7+5+4-2+1+1 = +16Fighter Attacks: 18/13/18/13
Magus Attacks 16/16/11Fighter damage: 1d8+5+2+6+2+2/1d6+2+2+3+2+2= 1d8+17/1d6+11
Magus Damage: 1d8+5+4+3+4+2=1d8+18
I don't account for half-strength damage on the shield, so "11" is correct. But Weapon Training 2 only applies to the main hand weapon, the shield typically will only benefit of 1 level of weapon training.
The Fighter has access to magical items, sure, and so does the Magus. I didn't include any item based magical bonuses (except the +2 weapons that each wields).
I'm looking at the two in isolation; not in a party (as I did say on top this is not exactly fair). The point is that the Magus is quite competitive with the Fighter. In my estimate, even if the Fighter has haste for free - considering that his damage output is effectively halved (50% misschance from displacement or greater invisibility) the Magus holds the odds for the combat.
Guys why should the magues be on par with the fighter?
I don't expect him to be. I think he should be about 60~75% of the fighter's damage when doing spell combat and maybe about 70~85% when not (due to being able to TwF or ThF at such times). The variance is for build, campaign, equipment, etc.
I don't account for half-strength damage on the shield, so "11" is correct. But Weapon Training 2 only applies to the main hand weapon, the shield typically will only benefit of 1 level of weapon training.The Fighter has access to magical items, sure, and so does the Magus. I didn't include any item based magical bonuses (except the +2 weapons that each wields).
I'm looking at the two in isolation; not in a party (as I did say on top this is not exactly fair). The point is that the Magus is quite competitive with the Fighter. In my estimate, even if the Fighter has haste for free - considering that his damage output is effectively halved (50% misschance from displacement or greater invisibility) the Magus holds the odds for the combat.
Weapon training close includes both shields and short swords -- which is why I went with a short sword instead of a long (that and to have a one handed and light weapon).
Well I won't even agree that the fighter's chances to hit are going to be halved since that is a class spell for all of 4 out of 17 classes, and appears infrequently on monsters.
Please note that the magus is going to have to deal with the same 50% miss chance that the fighter deals with, and see invisibility doesn't help with that.
Also the fighter in my example, didn't include the haste attack (my mistake) -- dropping haste off all together means he would be:
+17/+12/+17/+12 (1d8+17/1d6+11)
Compared to:
+16/+16/+11 (1d8+18)
My money is on the fighter in melee still -- which is as it should be (and honestly once we factor defenses and the like the fighter would be on the winning end -- in melee -- this is ok of course since the magus has other stuff to fall back on).
Weapon Training level 2 for your blade, but only level 1 for the shield. Shields are only granted in "Close" weapon group and no shortsword or other blade weapon is in that group - so if you take Blades at level 5, then Close at level 9, you'd get +2 to blades and +1 to shield based attack and damage by level 10.
I'm not sure what weapons you really showing stats for, but if you take a one-handed weapon (longsword) and a light (spiked) shield you'd end up with (note the lower bonus from weapon training for shield attacks but otherwise using your numbers):
Fighter: +17/+12/+16/+11 (1d8+17/1d4+10)
Magus: +16/+16/+11 (1d8+18)
Assuming the same target AC (let's say 25)
Fighter: = 25.2
Magus: = 29.25
The point, though, is that the Magus competes very well with the fighter - albeit with very different mechanisms. In raw fighting melee power the Fighter delivers more bang for the attack. But overall versatility goes to the Magus.
The Magus can tank very well if he splashes his spells for a fight, but he cannot do it all day long. The Fighter can tank well all the time. The Magus has two good saves (including the very important Will save) where the Fighter only has the Fort save. A lot of the "Fighter" feats are accessable to the Magus (albeit more slowly) - so juicy feats like Weapon Specialization help out the Magus where few other classes get access to the feat. Also the Magus' weapon bond goes a long way to keep the class competitive as a melee combatant.
Of course, the Fighter gets much better access to the critical feats - which at high levels have a big impact on a fight; where the Magus has a much lower and slower trickle of critical feats. But that is what we'd want: the Fighter must kick ass at fighting all the time.
But this doesn't change the fact that the Magus can nova nicely to outshine the Fighter in specific situations (much like the Paladin and Ranger have situations in which they rank better than the Fighter). A d8 hit dice doesn't make the Magus less competitive in melee. The defensive spells that keep a Wizard alive well enough in combat are available to the Magus and the Magus has the benefits of real armor to help him out. His HP are lower, his AC is lower, but his spells make him far less vulnerable to enemy attacks. It is situational, but in some situations HP are better than AC. And in some situations mirror image is better than HP.
Perhaps we should wait for Treantmonk's guide to the Magus ;) - that should give us a highly competitive Magus to field test.
I, for one, hope that Jason Bulmahn does not give in to community pressure. The first draft of the Magus is a very pleasant and well-rounded class and additional polishing of the fine details will go a long way to prepare it for Ultimate Magic.
My mistake: the Magus has better DPR while hasted (wrongly used lower attack iteration for hasted attack).
These are the DPRs for the above stats:
Magus hasted: = 34.875
Magus vanilla: = 21.375
I don't account for half-strength damage on the shield, so "11" is correct. But Weapon Training 2 only applies to the main hand weapon, the shield typically will only benefit of 1 level of weapon training.The Fighter has access to magical items, sure, and so does the Magus. I didn't include any item based magical bonuses (except the +2 weapons that each wields).
I'm looking at the two in isolation; not in a party (as I did say on top this is not exactly fair). The point is that the Magus is quite competitive with the Fighter. In my estimate, even if the Fighter has haste for free - considering that his damage output is effectively halved (50% misschance from displacement or greater invisibility) the Magus holds the odds for the combat.
Weapon training close includes both shields and short swords -- which is why I went with a short sword instead of a long (that and to have a one handed and light weapon).
Well I won't even agree that the fighter's chances to hit are going to be halved since that is a class spell for all of 4 out of 17 classes, and appears infrequently on monsters.
Please note that the magus is going to have to deal with the same 50% miss chance that the fighter deals with, and see invisibility doesn't help with that.
Also the fighter in my example, didn't include the haste attack (my mistake) -- dropping haste off all together means he would be:
+17/+12/+17/+12 (1d8+17/1d6+11)
Compared to:
+16/+16/+11 (1d8+18)My money is on the fighter in melee still -- which is as it should be (and honestly once we factor defenses and the like the fighter would be on the winning end -- in melee -- this is ok of course since the magus has other stuff to fall back on).
So what your saying is that After using his best buff, the magus is still 7.5 DPR down on a fairly standard fighter build that does not optimize for damage, the magus having invested half his feats to get there.
In fact, he is still down on bard builds at that level if they cast haste.
You know, I'll have to change my ideas about spell combat ... at level 5 you will do around 12 damage per round with it steady state, which is almost equal to the TWF fighter, and about 5 points lower than the THF fighter ... which seems to be in the ballpark it should be.
So if you can alpha strike with a held charge you can be ahead of the TWF fighter, and the THF fighter will need ~2 rounds to catch up with you.
PS. the averages don't express the pain which will accompany your magus play though, your damage will be very swingy and you will have a lot of misses and spell failures.
This does seem in line with what you would expect of an arcane warrior-he trails behind the fighter in normal combat, but when he employs his powers to the full, he can outshine even the fighter in combat. The fact that his spells can be used for other purposes rounds up the balance.
Weapon Training level 2 for your blade, but only level 1 for the shield. Shields are only granted in "Close" weapon group and no shortsword or other blade weapon is in that group - so if you take Blades at level 5, then Close at level 9, you'd get +2 to blades and +1 to shield based attack and damage by level 10.
I'm not sure what weapons you really showing stats for, but if you take a one-handed weapon (longsword) and a light (spiked) shield you'd end up with (note the lower bonus from weapon training for shield attacks but otherwise using your numbers):
Fighter: +17/+12/+16/+11 (1d8+17/1d4+10)
Magus: +16/+16/+11 (1d8+18)Assuming the same target AC (let's say 25)
Fighter: = 25.2
Magus: = 29.25The point, though, is that the Magus competes very well with the fighter - albeit with very different mechanisms. In raw fighting melee power the Fighter delivers more bang for the attack. But overall versatility goes to the Magus.
The Magus can tank very well if he splashes his spells for a fight, but he cannot do it all day long. The Fighter can tank well all the time. The Magus has two good saves (including the very important Will save) where the Fighter only has the Fort save. A lot of the "Fighter" feats are accessable to the Magus (albeit more slowly) - so juicy feats like Weapon Specialization help out the Magus where few other classes get access to the feat. Also the Magus' weapon bond goes a long way to keep the class competitive as a melee combatant.
Of course, the Fighter gets much better access to the critical feats - which at high levels have a big impact on a fight; where the Magus has a much lower and slower trickle of critical feats. But that is what we'd want: the Fighter must kick ass at fighting all the time.
But this doesn't change the fact that the Magus can nova nicely to outshine the Fighter in specific situations (much like the Paladin and...
Your DPR is ignoring criticals. The fighter at that level can get improved critical. This will increase both their DPR. Also, I have no idea what you added together to get that, since using the math you are showing it should be 34.35 and 34.875. Adding in the crit chance, you are looking at 39.56 and 38.36.
This does seem in line with what you would expect of an arcane warrior-he trails behind the fighter in normal combat, but when he employs his powers to the full, he can outshine even the fighter in combat. The fact that his spells can be used for other purposes rounds up the balance.You know, I'll have to change my ideas about spell combat ... at level 5 you will do around 12 damage per round with it steady state, which is almost equal to the TWF fighter, and about 5 points lower than the THF fighter ... which seems to be in the ballpark it should be.
So if you can alpha strike with a held charge you can be ahead of the TWF fighter, and the THF fighter will need ~2 rounds to catch up with you.
PS. the averages don't express the pain which will accompany your magus play though, your damage will be very swingy and you will have a lot of misses and spell failures.
You are comparing the best optimized magus you can to a terribly optimized for damage fighter and drawing a conclusion from that? Lets see some comparisons to a fighter with similar other stats, like AC, instead of one that 5-10 points higher. The guys in the DPR Olympics were routinely hitting 50s at level 10 with just about every martial class using standard array for stats, but your build hasn't hit 40, using better stats.
You are comparing the best optimized magus you can to a terribly optimized for damage fighter and drawing a conclusion from that?
No, this is not what is happening - there's plenty optimization left for both the fighter and the magus. The numbers are run simply to illustrate what a magus and fighter can typically expect. Yes, of course there are highly munchkinized builds available that sacrifice a lot to get the best possible DPR.
As I'm sure you're familiar with the here's a DPR Olympics legal magus build (summarized). I did not include crit-maths, you're welcome to increase the DPR appropriately:
Important stats:
15 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 22 strength
13 + 1 + 2 = 16 intelligence
Gold spent:
16000 - +4 to strength
19000 - +3 dwarven battleaxe
- Haste included as baseline as it is gained as a swift action (magus arcana: hasted assault); as per DPR Olympic rules
- Arcane accuracy (magus arcana) used as part of base line for +2 to attacks by sacrificing level spells; also a swift action so legal as per DPR Olympic rules
- Weapon bond ability used (+2 to dwarven battleaxe)
Attack
7 + 6 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 1 - 2 - 2
= 20/20/15
Damage
6 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 4
= 1d10 + 18 = 23.5
Damage wielding the weapon in two hands
9 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 6
= 1d10 + 23 = 28.5
Concentration
10 + 3 + 2
= 15
Cannot fail concentration check for spells up to level 1
DPR With Spell Combat: (uses Magic Missile to minimize math)
= 62.325
DPR Ignoring Spell Combat (uses two-handed wielding)
= 64.125
This is naturally only a theoretical DPR-olympic legal build, and not the most optimal at that (spell combat with smarter spells can easily increase DPR) - and the math does not include increases to DPR from crits (roughly adds another 10% or so).
I'm willing to say that the Magus is very competitive.
Also note we both gave the magus access to weapon spec at level 10... he doesn't have a feat to spend on it though.
Beyond that:
The fighter isn't going to "just" have a strength of 18 by level 10.
Also:
You are right about the short sword, so I would just go with a Heavy "Bashing" Shield and a punching dagger. Shield bonus would be first because the shield is going to be the better weapon -- including his free bull rush attempt everytime he hits.
The DPR Thread has a Google Docs Spreadsheet which automates DPR calcs, INCLUDING Crits, for all but very wonky cases.
I think including two Swift Actions might not be legal by that thread`s rules because you can`t get more than 1 Swift Action per round, but realistically melee combat often requires 1 round to close (or prepare for enemy assault) so 1 Arcana could be activated that round and the other Arcana the next round. The rules for that thread should really be based around a 1st round only allowing a Standard Action and 3 rounds or so of Full Attack DPR. (Tejon`s Spreadsheet breaks out Attack Action, Full Attack Action, and single attack i.e. AoO damage)
*Waits for hand to fall off*