| IkeDoe |
I put a small party of two characters under test.
A Magus and a Fighter (to compare), they lack social skills, and stealth skills at low levels, they also lack powerful healing resources, but that isn't so important at low levels.
The Magus:
Level 1 Human
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 12, Wis 10, Int 16, Cha 8
HP: 13.
AC 16 (14 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
Longsword attack: +3, damage 1d8+4 (two handed) [Note that I could buy a greatsword for 2d6+4 damage, altough I would stop using it soon, prolly at 2nd level], Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+0, CMB +3, CMD 15
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +2
Class features: Spellstrike
Class Skills: Spellcraft 1 rank (int), Climb 1 rank (Str), Knowledge-Arcana 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-Dungeons 1 rank (Int)
Non class Skills: Acrobatics 1 rank (dex), Heal 1 rank (Wis)
skill check penalties: -2
Feats: Dodge, Toughness
Equipment: Longsword, Javelin, Chainshirt (i used 140 gp as initial money)
Spells known: Level 0 (all), Level 1 (6: Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Weapon, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat).
Spells/Day: Level 0 (3, but infinite uses, usually Acid Splash, Read Magic and Light), Level 1 (2, usually Shield and Shocking Grasp)
The Fighter:
Level 1 Human Speed 20' (with armor)
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Wis 11, Int 10, Cha 8
HP: 13.
AC 19 (17 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
Bastard Sword attack: +5, damage 1d10+4, Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +0
Class features: Spellstrike
Class Skills: Survival 1 rank (Wis)
Non class Skills: Perception 1 rank (Wis)
skill check penalties: -6
Feats: Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon, Dodge
Equipment: Bastard Sword, Javelin, Scale Mail, Shortbow
Character Creation Notes:
A Magus will prolly have worse Int modifiers than a Wizard or Sorcerer, it means less spells and worse Save DCs, furthermore the Magus has many ways to use spells. My point is that I will avoid spells that allow Saving Throws as much as possible, touch spells work usually this way, take it in mind when you Paizo guys write the new Magus spells that will appear in Ultimate Magic.
1st level spells have everything I need, so no complains or problems yet. Acid Splash and Shocking Grasp are ok. A melee touch level 0 spell would be a nice adittion, but wouldn't be optional, you would cast it after every combat to store that extra 1d4 damage in the sword for the next combat, which would make the Magus too gamey and tedious imo.
I didn't take Concentration because It is not of much use at level 1, Weapon Expertise would be a nice option, high inteligence helps with the prerequisite.
I don't know the starting money of the Magus, please give him 170 gp (as fighter) so he can buy a decent missile weapon if he wants (a bow i.e.). For someone that doesn't use a shield it is a nice advantage at low level. Alternatively he may buy a reach weapon and a one handed weapon (he may stop using two handed weapons at 2nd level, but I'm playing level 1 now).
Details of the adventure in the next post (please, don't reply/comment yet)
| IkeDoe |
The adventure/Test (level 1)
Day 1 / Dungeon 1
First, they go into a dungeon, they will face 3 Average encounters (aprox. CR 1/2 each encounter).
Encounter 1: 3 x lizards. The lizards hide near the entrance to the cave, the PCs fail their Perception checks by far and get surprised. However it goes easy, each character loses 1 hp only.
Encounter 2: 1 x hobgoblin. The cave is in dim light, but the Magus uses his level 0 light spell to ignore the penalties. They encounter a hobgoblin guard, the Magus charges, so the hobgoblin can't flee. The hobgoblin is lucky, Deals 9 damage to the Fighter and 8 to the Magus. The Magus is forced to Fight Defensively. Finally the Fighter hits the hobgoblin hard and the Magus uses a ranged touch spell to finish the enemy.
The Magus gets a Longbow from the Hobgoblin, which is a good thing to use in the first round of combat now that he is low on hps.
Encounter 3: 2 x drows. The PCs hear voices in a room.
Being seriously injured the Magus uses all his spells now: Shield (+4 to AC) and Shocking Grasp. Shield raises his AC to 20 (the fighter got 19). Spellstrike allows him to store Shocking Grasp in his sword (1d6 extra damage for the first attack, no Save). He is not going to cast more spells, so he wields the bow now, he can change to the sword pretty fast.
They enter the room: 2 not-surprised drows. The drows win initiative. They cast Darkness.
The Magus can't use the bow or any ranged attack now. The 0-level light spell won't help against Darkness. The PCs are very low on hps and they decide to flee, that gets hard for the fighter, he moves 20' and the drows use crossbows.
The party flee and leaves the cave, defeated.
Another day
The party returns to the cave, they will try to get some information but they suspect that the drows and the treasure have moved to another location.
This day they will face a single Epic Encounter: CR 2
Ghoul + Zombie (human)
The drows have gone, but in the lower room they have left some kind of unholy altar and 2 undead guardians.
The zombie is stupid and slow, it needs two rounds to get near the PCs. The Ghoul is more inteligent, but he won't fight alone, he moves and readies an attack.
The fighter readies an attack too, in case the ghoul charges. The Magus uses those rounds to cast Shield and Shocking Grasp into the sword, he may also use the bow but the Ghoul looks like a tough foe (however knowledge-religion is not a class skill and he didn't put any rank in it, so no details about the monster).
Finally the Zombie is lucky and hits the Magus for 5 hp, the Magus also deals a good amount of damage and kills the zombie. The Ghoul fails to hit the Fighter, and the fighter kills the Ghoul using the readied attack and the attack of his round.
Conclusions
When preparation is possible the Magus does it better than any other caster at level 1, for 1 encounter per day of course, as most spellcasters.
Without using spells he still does well in combat, he doesn't need to burn his spells so often as other spellcasters.
Overall it is worse than a fighter in combat. However it gets more skillpoints (but few class skills), better Will Saves, and some useful spells. Furthermore, one free hand and better speed.
The interesting thing about the class at this level is that you have to save the level 1 spells for the proper situation, as happens with many level 1 spellcasters. However it isn't a complex class to play, yet (level 1).
Spellstrike allows you to better prepare for the next encounter, in combat it is less useful, because at level 1 using a ranged weapon is still a good option if you don't need to charge against the enemy.
Thumbs up for the first level.
| IkeDoe |
Level 2
Mr Fighter and Ms Magus get to 2nd level, now they have money to spend on equipment, cure potions, scrolls, etc.
Pay attention to the weapon used by Ms Magus.
The Magus:
Level 2 Human
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 12, Wis 10, Int 16, Cha 8
HP: 20.
AC 16 (14 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
GREATsword attack: +5, damage 2d6+4 (two handed) [I can't use Spell Combat, yes, I will explain later why I prefer two handed weapon damage to being able to use Spell Combat], Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+1, CMB +4, CMD 16
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +3
Class features: Spellstrike, Spell Combat (it can't be used with two-handed weapons)
Class Skills: Spellcraft 2 rank (int), Climb 1 rank (Str), Knowledge-Arcana 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-Dungeons 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-planes (Int) 1 rank, Swim (Str) 1 rank, Intimidate 1 rank (Cha).
Non class Skills: Acrobatics 1 rank (dex), Heal 1 rank (Wis), Perception 1 rank (Wis), Knowledge-religion 1 rank (Int).
skill check penalties: -2. Total ranks: 12
Feats: Dodge, Toughness
Equipment: Masterwork Greatsword, Longsword, Javelin, Chainshirt, Longbow, 8xcure light wounds potions, 100 gp.
Spells known: Level 0 (all), Level 1 (8: Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Weapon, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall).
Spells/Day: Level 0 (4, but infinite uses, usually Acid Splash, Read Magic, Light and Detect Magic), Level 1 (3, usually Shield, Shocking Grasp and Enlarge Person)
The Fighter:
Level 1 Human Speed 20' (with armor)
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Wis 11, Int 10, Cha 8
HP: 22.
AC 21 (19 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
Bastard Sword attack: +7, damage 1d10+4, Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+2, CMB +6, CMD 18
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +0 (+1 will vs fear)
Class Skills: Survival 1 rank (Wis), Climb 1 rank (Str), Swim 1 rank (Str), Ride 1 rank (Dex)
Non class Skills: Perception 1 rank (Wis), Acrobatics 1 rank (Dex)
skill check penalties: -6, total ranks 6
Feats: Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon, Dodge, Shield Focus
Equipment: Masterwork Bastard Sword, Javelin, Breastplate, Shortbow, 4xcure light wounds potions, 100 gp.
Character Creation Notes:
Since the Save DC of my spells isn't much high and my touch attack bonus is nice i keep selecting spells without Saves, touch spells and spells that enhance my abilities.
Intimidate is the only class skill related to social interaction, I know that even the wizard and sorcerer haven't got Diplomacy as class skill, but it is still strange that someone that read books is better Intimidating than using Diplomacy.
I could use more money on scrolls, cheap and quite useful, however it is better when you can cast spells before combat.
***Why I use a greatsword and ignore the Spell Combat feature (2nd level character):
1. Being a low level character I have few spells to cast, and there is no point in using this ability to cast 0 level spells. As much I will use Spell Combat 3 times per day.
2. Circumnstancial. You use his ability now and then, in many cases you can't do a full round attack and you can cast a spell. It is useful if you are flanked. It means that I'll prolly use it 2 times per day as much.
3. Penalties. The penalties makes it harder to use, usually it isn't worth it. As I said it is useful while flanked, but that's all. It means that I'll prolly use it 2 times per day as much.
4. I don't have the feat Combat Casting (for better Concentration checks). It could have taken it at 1st level, yes, but it is an horrible option for a 1st level caster with so few spells, specially when I can take Dodge or Toughness.
4. 1 handed weapon vs 2 handed weapon. Using the Greatsword instead of wielding two handed a long sword means that my average mele damage raises in 2.5 points.
Decreasing my normal damage that much just to be able to use Spell Combat a few times per day isn't a good option imo, a first level spell like Shocking Grasp increases your damage by 7 in a single attack, i.e.
5. Note that I can't have weapon focus, so it doesn't matter that in the future (when I get more spells and/or Improved Spell Combat) I will use a different weapon.
I can sell the Masterwork Greatsword in the future (if I switch to longsword at level 3 i.e.) for 150 gps, worth it imo.
6. I can't take the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword at first level, because you need BAB+1. Even then you couldn't take Dodge or Toughness and a greatsword still would deal more damage.
Note that I carry a longsword in case I have to fight against an enemy that grapples.
Conclusion: Spell Combat for low level characters needs to be redesigned. To be honest I don't know if I would use it even if the penalties were lower. You don't have much spells to cast and you loose too much damage using a one-handed weapon, the problem is that is circumstancial but forces you to use a one handed weapon.
IMHO Spell Combat should be moved to higher levels.
In the next post I will sum up the encounters played.
| IkeDoe |
Level 2: The adventure/ Test
Day 1/ The Forest
Unable to get any useful information from town's people they travel to the next town without knowing that animals and creatures have been very aggresive and active the last week.
They use an old track that goes into a forest.
They will face 4 average encounters (CR 1 each) plus a final Hard encounter (CR 2) in a single day.
Encounter 1: One Giant Spider. It surprises the party from the trees, uses web agains the fighter but fails. The Magus uses his bow against the Spider, dealing some damage; the fighter moves adjacent to the Magus and readies an attack. From the tree the Spider uses web until it entangles the fighter, then it goes down the tree and attacks the Magus from the other side. The spider deals 7 damage and 1 Str (from poison) to the Magus. The Magus kills the Spider while the fighter breaks the web.
The Magus uses 2 potions to cure 6 hps.
Encounter 2: 2 x Viper. Vipers surprise the PCs. The fighter has a high AC even flatfooted and avoids the attack, the other Viper scores a Critical hit, dealing 2 hp damage to the Magus.
(Notes: Tiny monsters CR need a revision, seriously)
Encounter 3: 4 x kobold, a distance of 100'. The Magus casts Enlarge person while the kobolds come, the fighter uses a javelin but misses.
The Magus uses his reach to kill the first kobold, the second hits the Magus for 2 damage. The fighter gets flanked but his AC is very high. The other kobolds get finally killed. The Magus uses another potion to cure 3 hps.
Encounter 4: 3 x Dire Rats. Again the PCs are flatfooted, 2 of them attack the fighter wthout any luck. The rats are killed without dealing damage to the characters.
Encounter 5 (Hard Encounter): A Hobgoblin and his Goblin Dog.
The monsters attack first, dealing 5 damage to the Magus and 7 to the fighter. The Magus moves back 5' and casts Shield (AC raises to 20).
The hobgoblin is now free, and both monsters flank the fighter. In a lucky round they deal 13 more damage to the fighter (he is down to 2 hp now), plus -2 Dex and Cha. The fighter fights defensively while the Magus kills each enemy with a single attack (2d6+4 damage for the win).
Hurt and angry the party gets to next town.
Another day
They are told that the problem in the forest could be related to an old shrine in the forest.
That's an Epic Encounter (CR 3): 1 x earth medium elemental
When they approach the shrine, they spot a medium sized elemental at the distance. Before entering the area the Magus press the turbo-boost button and casts Shield (AC raises to 20), Shocking Grasp(+2d6 damage for the first succesful mele attack, Spellstrike ftw!), Enlarge person (basically +1 damage, -2 AC, weapon deals 3d6 instead of 2d6, 10' natural reach).
The combat begins at 60' (tremorsense), the fighter can't charge more than 40',so the Magus moves and readies an attack.
The Elemental charges against the Magus, but the Magus misses both the AoO (reach) and the readied attack. The Magus is hit for 13 damage. The fighter arrives, scores a critical hit, but elementals are inmune, 10 damage. The Magus hits the elemental, rolls 5d6+5 for 19 damage, then moves 5' so Cleave becomes impossible. Then the elemental hits the fighter for 13 damage and the fighter kills the elemental.
The Magus uses his knowledge, Read Magic and Detect Magic to read the runes in the shrine.
Conclusions
As I suspected at 2nd level there isn't many situations where using Spell Combat is worth the penalties, instead wielding a two handed weapon is nice option.
The gameplay is basically the same as at 1st level, since Spell Combat is a feature that can be ignored.
There are more differences between the fighter and the Magus AC and hps (than at 1st level), but the Magus has one extra spell slot to buff himself more often, and his spells last longer and deal more
damage (2d6 instead of 1d6 for Shocking Grasp i.e.).
Even using all his spells the Magus doesn't become much better than the Fighter in combat.
However the Magus has a better Will Save, altough I haven't used a creature or NPC spellcaster that uses Will Save based spells yet.
Furthermore changing from bow to mele weapon is fast. The Magus also get more speed and skills.
IMHO at Second level the Magus is balanced, even ignoring the Spell Combat feature. The gameplay is ok, similar to many fighter/wizard builds. But design issues should be addresed.
Spell Combat with few penalties wouldn't break the balance, because the Magus would use a one-handed weapon for less damage and she can only cast 3 x level 1 spells per day.
| Zen79 |
I don't understand the fighter's AC.
At level 1, your fighter has AC 19, but I can see only +5 Armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge = 17.
At level 2, your fighter has AC 21, but I can see only +6 Armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge = 18.
Am I missing something?
| IkeDoe |
I don't understand the fighter's AC.
At level 1, your fighter has AC 19, but I can see only +5 Armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge = 17.
At level 2, your fighter has AC 21, but I can see only +6 Armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge = 18.
Am I missing something?
Doh! I forgot to add the Heavy Shield to the equipment desciption.
The fighter uses a Heavy Shield (+2 AC), he also get the Shield Focus feat for extra +1 AC.| IkeDoe |
Level 3
Mr Fighter and Mrs Magus get to 3rd level, Mrs Magus has got many options for his character.
The Magus
Level 3 Human
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 12, Wis 10, Int 16, Cha 8
HP: 26.
AC 16 (14 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
Longsword attack: +7, damage 1d8+5 (two handed), Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+2, CMB +5, CMD 17
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Class features: Spellstrike, Spell Combat, Magus Arcana (Concentrate)
Class Skills: Spellcraft 3 rank (int), Climb 1 rank (Str), Knowledge-Arcana 2 rank (Int), Knowledge-Dungeons 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-planes (Int) 1 rank, Swim (Str) 1 rank, Intimidate 1 rank (Cha).
Non class Skills: Acrobatics 3 rank (dex), Heal 1 rank (Wis), Perception 2 rank (Wis), Knowledge-religion 1 rank (Int), Stealth 1 rank (Dex).
skill check penalties: -2. Total ranks: 18
Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Weapon focus (longsword)
Equipment: Longsword+1, Javelin, Chainshirt, Longbow, 8xcure light wounds potions.
Spells known: Level 0 (all), Level 1 (8: Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Weapon, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Grease, Reduce Person).
Spells/Day: Level 0 (4, but infinite uses, usually Acid Splash, Read Magic, Light and Detect Magic), Level 1 (4, usually Shield, Shocking Grasp, Enlarge Person and True Strike)
The Fighter:
Level 3 Human Speed 30'
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Wis 11, Int 10, Cha 8
HP: 32.
AC 21 (19 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
Bastard Sword attack: +9, damage 1d10+5, Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+3, CMB +7, CMD 19
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +1 (+1 will vs fear)
Class Features: Armor training 1
Class Skills: Survival 1 rank (Wis), Climb 1 rank (Str), Swim 1 rank (Str), Ride 1 rank (Dex) , Knowledge-engineering 1 rank (Int)
Non class Skills: Perception 2 rank (Wis), Acrobatics 1 rank (Dex) , Heal 1 rank (Wis)
skill check penalties: -5, total ranks 9
Feats: Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon, Dodge, Shield Focus, Toughness
Equipment: Bastard Sword+1, Javelin, Breastplate, Shortbow, Heavy Shield, 4xcure light wounds potions, 100 gp.
Character Creation Notes
For the Magus it is an interesting level, he chooses one feat and one Magus Arcana, it means options, many options, I like that. What you choose may decide your strategies and future feat selections for some levels, so you should think about what you want to do.
The main question is, do I want to use Spell Combat (frequently) soon? Because there are many alternatives.
Let's see, the Magus Concentration check is d20+6. Casting on the defensive a 1st level spell has DC 17 (15 for 0 level spells). Casting a 1st level spell while using Spell Combat is DC 17 AND -2 to the check (so d20+4). Furthermore -4 to the attack. Looks like I need something to raise my Concentration check modifier, like a feat or a Magus Arcana.
In order to use Magus Arcana I need to use one handed weapons, it means less damage. From 2d6+4 (greatsword) to 1d8+4 (longsword two-handed). At this level weapon damage dices are the most important part of the damage formulae, uhmm, should I wait until I can get better magic weapons and more strenght? On the other hand, it is about time to take the Weapon focus feat, and I have to choose the weapon I will use in the future.
Well, IMO this Magus has got those options:
A. I want Spell Combat NOW. I would take the "Concentrate" Magus Arcane and one of those feats: Weapon focus (longsword) or Combat Casting or Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword).
B. I want Spell Combat "soon" but not now. I take Weapon focus (longsword) or Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword) and any useful Magus Arcane (I will use one handed weapons instead of two handed weapons, I hope that Weapon Focus will compensate the decreased damage). I will take Combat Casting in the future.
C. I want Spell Combat not so soon, but not late, I want to deal damage now!! I take Combat Casting, I will focus in one-handed weapons in the future. I keep using two-handed weapons for now.
D. I don't want Spell Combat until level 8, I take some other feat (I don't know what feat would be interesting, to be honest, maybe Arcane Strike).
IMHO the options that make your character competitive are B or C, Spell Combat isn't so useful at 3rd level and you would loose a lot of raw combat abilities (damage, attack, powerfull Magus Arcana) if you relly on it.
IMO "C" is the optimal option, but I want the Magus to test the use of one handed weapons and maybe Spell Combat, so the Magus goes with option A (but takes weapon focus, not Combat Casting)
Magus Arcana: Everything is "cool".
However let me do a small rant.
"Spell Shield" isn't a very good idea when you can cast Shield (1st level spell, +4 AC, lasts 1minute/level).
"Arcane Accuracy" isn't much good either. Takes a swift action, consumes a spell (1 to 6th level), +1 to +6 to attack for 1 round. However I can take the feat Arcane Strike, gaining +1 to +5 to damage, using a swift action, without loosing any spell, unlimited use. Damage is worse than attack, but at least I don't use spell slots. I would ignore Arcane Accuracy tbh.
So really, imho, the only option seems Concentrate, specially when you have so many abilities that make you roll Concentration checks.
"Maneuver Mastery" is mandatory if you want to do Maneuvers, someone with medium BAB is gonna have a hard time performing Maneuvers (low CMB), but this Arcana gives you full bab for one Combat Maneuver, that's ok.
In any case low level Magus Arcana aren't much powerful.
Magus Arcana (Concentrate): Please, delete the "He must use this ability after the roll is made, but before it is determined if the roll is a success" line. The player knows mosts Concentration DCs before rolling the dices, and after the roll is made it is automatically determined the success. Avoid gameplay problems and make it easier to use.
This Magus uses the longsword two-handed most of the time, unless she uses Spell Combat.
| IkeDoe |
Level 3: The Adventure / Test
Down to the dungeons again, the party will fight 2 Average Encounters (CR 2) and 2 Challenging Encounters (CR 3) today.
The dungeon has dim light, the Magus uses the light spell as usual.
Encounter 1: Average (CR 2). 1 Svirfneblin and 1 Tiefling.
The Magus uses Knowledge (planes), when he knows that Tieflings can cast Darkness he charges against the Tiefling, deals 7 damage, not enough to kill him.
The Tiefling casts Darkness, while the Svirfneblin cast Blindness against the Fighter. The Fighter fails the Saving Throw.
Both creatures focus in fighting the Magus in the dark, alone he manages to kill the Tiefling and dealing 12 damage to the Svirfneblin, who flees. The fighter, being blind, moves slower and when he gets near the fight he fails many perception checks to locate the enemies that are not adjacent to him.
The Magus suffers 10 damage in this fight, heals 8 hp using a potion.
The Fighter is now blind until someone casts Remove Blindness (even with a 3rd level Cleric in the Party, a scroll would be needed)
Encounter 2: Average (CR 2). 3 x Tiefling
The Magus casts Shocking Grasp and stores it in the sword using SpellStrike before leaving the first room, with a blind fighter extra damage will be needed in any future fight.
Tieflings ambush the party, two of them cast darkness in the Surprise round, he third fires a missile against the Magus for 4 damage.
Two tieflings win initiative, move to mele (bringing darkness with them) and sneak attack the PCs.
The Magus casts "Shield" using Spell Combat, he can't hardly hit someone doing that and thus chooses to fight defensively (at least it is a way to cast a spell and fight defensively at the same time).
Magus's hps drop fast because two enemies attack him, he fights defensively again. The Magus looses 15 hps, the fighter 14.
The Magus kills one enemy, Tiefling's resistance 5 isn't enough when Shocking Grasp deals 3d6. The fighter kills another.
Unfortunatelly the last Tiefling scores a critical hit of 16, the Magus falls unconscious. The fighter needs some rounds to kill the Tiefling, suffering 6 damage.
The Magus drops to -10, having a low Constitution score he almost dies.
The fighter uses 3 potions, the Magus uses 6 potions.
Encounter 3: Challenging (CR 3). 2 x Svirfneblin
Since Enlarge lasts 3 minutes now, the Magus casts Enlarge before leaving the second room and leads the party to the next encounter as fast as possible.
Enlarged he gets +1 damage, -2 AC, weapon deals 2d6+5 (instead of 1d8+5) and his natural reach becomes 10'.
They find 2 Svirfneblin, the Magus wins initiative and charges against one of them (he already knows that they cast blindness), being lucky scores a Critical hit and kills one of the Svirfneblin. The fighter moves 1/2 movement because he is blind, missing the action.
The other Svirfneblin casts Blindness on the Magus, the Magus succeeds at the Saving Throw. The Magus attacks the last enemy, dealing 14 damage.
Due to the Magus reach the Svirfneblin can't move 5' and cast "Blur", he tries Casting on the Defensive but fails. The Magus kills the Svirfneblin.
Encounter 4: Challenging (CR 3). 6 x Skeleton (human)
Enlarge duration finish, the Magus has one 1st level spell left only (True Strike). Now I realize that memorizing True Strike when you don't have Power Attack or a reliable Concentration modifier for Spell Combat doesn't make much sense.
After the last easy victory and being in need of treasure they keep exploring the dungeon. The Magus goes first, 30' ahead and sneaking (the fighter is still Blind).
Some of the Skeletons in the final room hear the Magus and rush into the corridor, the Magus withdraw to the fighter position.
In this fight no spell is used, the Magus fights defensively in some rounds. The fighter looses 12 hps, the Magus 5 hps. Each PC kills 3 skeletons.
Finally they find some art pieces they can sell, and a stone with runes. The Magus thinks that using a Power Word it will do something like summoning a creature or opening a Gate. They decide to leave the dungeon, heal, and return other day to active the altar and see what it does.
Level 3: Another day
They pay money to get Blindness removed from the Fighter, buy a few potions and return to the altar in the dungeon.
It is an Epic Encounter (CR 4): 2 x Devil Imp
The Magus casts Shocking Grasp and stores it in the sword, then actives the altar. 2 hostile Devil Imp appear and attack (no surprise).
The Magus uses his Knowledge-planes skill to know some details about the creatures.
The fighter wins initiative and charges against one Imp, the Magus rolls the worst initiative. The Imps cast Suggestion, in spite of having a better Will save the Magus fails the Save, the Fighter don't.
The Magus is told to not attack unless attacked and defend himself, which renders him useless (unless the fighter falls unconscious). A generous DM would allow him to at least cast harmless spells on the fighter, I know, but I'm not generous and it is a test. It is a pity because that Shocking Grasp spell would be of great use.
Well, the fighter manages to kill the Imps, suffering 17 damage and -3 Dex (poison).
Conclusions
Spell Combat can be used to cast spells and fight defensively (extra AC) if you don't expect to hit someone, at least that's one use.
Moving from two handed weapons to one handed, in the process of making Spell Combat useful, hurts.
The player gets excited when he knows that he gets a feat and a Magus Arcana at 3rd level, but when he looks in detail his options for Magus Arcana, feats and strategies it becomes quite disappointing.
After playing it, 3rd level isn't that bad, but I think that it is a bit underpowered, the Magus has been fighting defensively far too often, and almost dies.
The attack bonus and mele damage isn't much worse than that of the Fighter.
However the gap in AC and HPs is too much.
Using a spell before each encounter isn't enough to balance the situation.
If you cast all your spells before the beginning of an encounter, you don't get much better than the fighter.
On the other hand, more skill points, better skill check penalties, some useful spells, better Will Save.
Speed is no longer an advantage, the fighter gets Armor Training and moves as fast as the Magus.
As I said at level 2, Spell Combat needs some modification, or being moved to higher levels.
Imo some low level Magus Arcana need to be a bit better.
Summing up. Level 3 is playable, but it is difficult to figure out for a player, a bit frustrating and underpowered.
| IkeDoe |
Level 4
Fighter and Magus are 4th level Characters now.
The Magus
Level 4 Human
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 12, Wis 10, Int 16, Cha 8
HP: 34.
AC 17 (15 flatfooted), Touch AC: 13
Longsword attack: +10, damage 1d8+8 (two handed), Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+3, CMB +7, CMD 20
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +4
Class features: Spellstrike, Spell Combat, Magus Arcana (Concentrate), Arcane Weapon (added +1 enhancement bonus to sword, already added to the numbers)
Class Skills: Spellcraft 3 rank (int), Climb 1 rank (Str), Knowledge-Arcana 2 rank (Int), Knowledge-Dungeons 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-planes (Int) 1 rank, Swim (Str) 1 rank, Intimidate 1 rank (Cha).
Non class Skills: Acrobatics 4 rank (dex), Heal 1 rank (Wis), Perception 4 rank (Wis), Knowledge-religion 1 rank (Int), Stealth 2 rank (Dex), Diplomacy 1 rank (Cha)
skill check penalties: -2. Total ranks: 23
Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Weapon focus (longsword)
Equipment: Longsword+1, Javelin, Chainshirt, Ring of Protection +1, Longbow, 10xcure light wounds potions. 700 gp
Scrolls: Glitterdust, Levitate
Spells known: Level 0 (all), Level 1 (9: Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Weapon, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Grease, Reduce Person), Level 2 (2: Blur, Invisibility).
Spells/Day: Level 0 (4, but infinite uses, usually Acid Splash, Read Magic, Light and Detect Magic), Level 1 (4, usually 4xShocking Grasp), Level 2 (2, usually 2xBlur)
The Fighter:
Level 4 Human Speed 20' (running x3)
Str 20, Dex 13, Con 14, Wis 11, Int 10, Cha 8
HP: 42.
AC 24 (22 flatfooted), Touch AC: 12
Bastard Sword attack: +11, damage 1d10+8, Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+4, CMB +9, CMD 21
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2 (+1 will vs fear)
Class Features: Armor training 1
Class Skills: Survival 1 rank (Wis), Climb 1 rank (Str), Swim 1 rank (Str), Ride 1 rank (Dex) , Knowledge-engineering 1 rank (Int), Handle Animal 1 rank (Cha)
Non class Skills: Perception 3 rank (Wis), Acrobatics 2 rank (Dex) , Heal 1 rank (Wis)
skill check penalties: -7, total ranks 12
Feats: Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon, Dodge, Shield Focus, Toughness, Weapon Specialization
Equipment: Bastard Sword+1, Javelin, Masterwork Full Plate, Longbow, Heavy Shield, Cloak of resistance+1, 10xcure light wounds potions, 300 gp.
Character Creation Notes
After some frustration at level 3, level 4 looks really nice: +1 BAB, better Saves, first 2nd level spell slot (plus another from Intelligence!) and the powerful Arcane Weapon feature.
Maybe the change from Greatsword to longsword (in order to take advantage of Spell Combat) was a better move at level 4th instead of 3rd. Again, the Spell Combat problem for low level characters.
A problem, how Spellstrike helps with it, and changing strategies:
For someone that needs to cast spells (like Shield) before combat it is very important to know where is the enemy, because most spells don't last much long at low level.
The usual party has someone with at least high Perception skill modifier, and sometimes Stealth too.
However that party of 2 characters isn't the case, and the Magus suffered from it at 2nd and 3rd level (when spells become more important).
However the Magus can use Spellstrike in this case. Before getting into a dungeon, and after any encounter, just cast a touch spell and "store" it in the weapon for the next encounter, it allows a devastating first attack (Shocking Grasp: 1d6/level, max. 5d6). After doing his part dealing a lot of damage he will fight defensively. That's a very aggresive tactic, because he will need to memorize 3-4 Shocking Grasp spells, it leaves room for 1 Shield spell at most, but looks good and worth trying.
Note: I presume that the spell remains "stored" in the weapon for all day.
Spell Selection:
Now the Magus can cast 2nd level spells. Again, he got a higher touch attack bonus and worse Save DC modifier than a Wizard or Sorcerer, and does need self-buffing spells. So the Magus avoids spells with Saving Throws as much as possible. Some utility spells that are used only now and then can be bought as scrolls (i.e. Glitterdust).
The Magus gets nice things at level 4, but other classes do too.
I don't know if a fighter is the best class to compare with at level 4th. Using spells the Magus can deal as much damage as the fighter for many encounters, however in that case he can't cast enough spells to compensate the difference in AC (7) and HPs (8), unless he spent a lot of money in scrolls which hurt at those levels -however Blur, Mirror Image and Shield give a decent defense. Stacking many spells can be very powerful, for one encounter only. On the other hand, better movement for the Magus, more skill points and some Utility Spells.
| IkeDoe |
Level 4: The Adventure / Test
The Party has to walk down a valley with a temple that can be seen from the distance. Today the party will have 2 Average encounters (CR 3) and 2 Challenging/Dificult encounters (CR 4).
Encounter 1: Average CR3. 2 x Small Air Elemental
Before approaching the entrance of the valley the Magus casts Shocking Grasp and uses Spellstrike to store it for the next encounter.
2 flying small air elementals appear at 120' and they win initiative. The Magus casts Blur, the Fighter readies an attack. The elementals attack using Flybyattack. The Fighter fails its readied attack and the Magus loses 5 hps. The Magus fights defensively now. The Fighter kills one (13 damage), the Magus another (27 damage, however he would have killed the elemental without the extra damage from Shocking Grasp).
Encounter 2: Average CR3. 4 x Tengu
The Magus casts Shocking Grasp again, Blur lasts until that encounter.
The PCs get ambushed by Tengus using bows, however the AC of the Fighter and the Magus Blur effect protect them from those attacks.
Not knowing that Tengus use Sneak Attack the Magus charges against one group of 2 tengus, while the Fighter moves against another (he can't move enough to charge against them). The Magus kills one tengu (25 damage, again he would have killed that enemy without the extra damage from Shocking Grasp).
Tengus fire his bow against the fighter and move, while the fighter tries to get close enough. The Magus kills another enemy. The Fighter is flanked by the two remaining Tengus. Finally the fighter is sneak attacked for 9 damage (natural 20 roll), the fighter kills one Tengu and the Magus kills the other.
The Fighter uses a potion and heals 6 hps.
Encounter 3: Challenging CR4. 3 x Tengu and 1 x Small Air Elemental
The Magus casts Shocking Grasp again. They see another air elemental flying in the distance. The Magus casts Blur again.
The PCs get ambushed by 3 Tengus using bows, while a small air elemental attacks them using Flyby attack.
The Magus charges against one Tengu and the fighter moves against a group of two. The Magus kills his foe (he would have killed the Tengu without the extra damage from Shocking Grasp). The fighter manages to kill the remaining Tengus. The Air elemental attacks randomly the fighter or the Magus, without scoring a hit. Finally the fighter kills the elemental using a readied attack.
Encounter 4: Hard CR4-5. 3 x Shocker Lizard
The Magus casts Shocking Grasp again, Blur lasts until that encounter.
The three beasts guard the entrance of the temple and attack the intruders using Stealth.
Shocking Grasp has no effect because the lizards are inmune to electricity. In this encounter the fighter suffers 13 damage and the Magus 14, both do a similar ammount of damage to the lizards.
Conclusions
It was easier than I expected and the Magus did well even when Shocking Grasp was useless in all four encounters. Having better speed was useful.
Spell Combat wasn't used.
I would say that more playtesting with harder enemies may be needed, in any case the 4th level Magus seems ok.
| IkeDoe |
Level 5
Fighter and Magus are 5th level Characters now.
The Magus
Level 5 Human
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 12, Wis 10, Int 16, Cha 8
HP: 41.
AC 19 (17 flatfooted), Touch AC: 13
Longsword attack: +10, damage 1d8+8 (two handed)(See Arcane Strike), Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+3, CMB +7, CMD 20
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +5
Class features: Spellstrike, Spell Combat, Magus Arcana (Concentrate), Combat Casting, Arcane Weapon (added +1 enhancement bonus to sword, already added to the numbers)
Class Skills: Spellcraft 4 rank (int), Climb 1 rank (Str), Knowledge-Arcana 2 rank (Int), Knowledge-Dungeons 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-planes (Int) 1 rank, Swim (Str) 1 rank, Intimidate 1 rank (Cha).
Non class Skills: Acrobatics 4 rank (dex), Heal 1 rank (Wis), Perception 5 rank (Wis), Knowledge-religion 1 rank (Int), Stealth 4 rank (Dex), Diplomacy 1 rank (Cha), Knowledge-Nature 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-History 1 rank (Int)
skill check penalties: -1. Total ranks: 29
Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Weapon focus (longsword), Arcane Strike (+2 to weapon damage using a swift action)
Equipment: Longsword+1, Javelin, Chainshirt+1, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor+1, Cloak of resistance+1, Longbow, 12xcure light wounds potions. 850 gp
Scrolls: Glitterdust, Levitate, Alter Self
Spells known: Level 0 (all), Level 1 (9: Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Weapon, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Grease, Reduce Person), Level 2 (2: Blur, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Bear's Endurance).
Spells/Day: Level 0 (4, but infinite uses, usually Acid Splash, Read Magic, Light and Detect Magic), Level 1 (5, usually 4xShocking Grasp and 1xShield), Level 2 (3, usually 2xBlur and 1xMirror Image)
The Fighter:
Level 5 Human Speed 20' (running x3)
Str 20, Dex 13, Con 14, Wis 11, Int 10, Cha 8
HP: 51.
AC 26 (24 flatfooted), Touch AC: 13
Bastard Sword attack: +13, damage 1d10+9, Crit 19-20/x2
BAB+5, CMB +10, CMD 22 (CMD 23 vs disarm/sunder)
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +4 (+1 will vs fear)
Class Features: Armor training 1, Weapon Training 1 (Heavy Blades)
Class Skills: Survival 2 rank (Wis), Climb 2 rank (Str), Swim 1 rank (Str), Ride 1 rank (Dex) , Knowledge-engineering 1 rank (Int), Knowledge-dungeons 1 rank (Int), Handle Animal 1 rank (Cha)
Non class Skills: Perception 3 rank (Wis), Acrobatics 2 rank (Dex) , Heal 1 rank (Wis)
skill check penalties: -7, total ranks 15
Feats: Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon, Dodge, Shield Focus, Toughness, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will
Equipment: Bastard Sword+1, Javelin, Masterwork Full Plate, Longbow, Heavy Shield+1, Cloak of resistance+1, Ring of Protection+1,14xcure light wounds potions, 1xcure moderate wounds potion, 1150 gp.
Character Creation Notes
Level 4 had many good things, level 5 gives prolly similar or worse stuff: 1x 1st level slot, 1x 2nd level slot and a bonus feat. Well, that +1 to Caster Level means that many spells last 1 minute more.
Since The Magus is not going to have the Arcane Accuracy Magus Arcana, he takes Arcane Strike: +2 to weapon damage using a swift action, without loosing spells. Another good option would be Combat Expertise.
The level 5 character feat is used to get Combat Casting, important if you want to make a good use of Spell Combat, something that urges now that the Magus can cast a decent ammount of spells.
The situation seems similar to that of 4th level. The Magus can deal as much damage as the fighter, but the gap in AC and HPs is huge. On the other hand speed, skills, (a few) utility spells...
| IkeDoe |
Level 5: The Adventure / Test
In a single day they will fight 3 encounters, 1 Average (CR4), 1 Challenging (CR5) and 1 Hard (CR 6)
Encounter 1: Average. 2x Skeletal Champion.
The Magus had Shocking Grasp stored in the Sword, the party hears enemies before getting into the room and the Magus casts Blur before combat.
The monsters are killed without damaging the PCs.
Encounter 2: Challenging. Shadow and Wight.
The Magus stores another Shocking Grasp in the sword, Blur lasts enough for that encouter. With a lucky roll the party hears enemies and the Magus casts Mirror Image for extra defense.
The Magus destroys the Wight dealing 34 damage with his first attack. The Shadow deals -3 Strenght damage to the Fighter, the Magus isn't damaged thanks to Mirror Image.
Encounter 3: Hard (almost Epic). Mummy + 2xGhoul.
The Magus stores another Shocking Grasp in the sword. The last part of the dungeon is far away, both Blur and Mirror Image effects end. The encounter begins before the Magus casts any spell.
The fighter kills the first Ghoul. Then the Mummy Dispair Aura paralyzes the fighter, the Magus succeds at the saving throw.
The Magus uses Spell Combat three times, two of them fighting defensively, to cast Shield, Blur and another Shocking Grasp. The round that isn't fight defensively the Magus damages the Mummy with Shocking Grasp and the sword, in spite of the -4 penalty.
The fighter is paralyzed another time by the other Ghoul, being inactive most of the encounter. The Magus finally kills the Mummy.
The Fighter suffered 40 damage (even Paralyzed his AC was 19), the Magus 34 damage. Both characters suffer Mommy Rot. The Magus has used all his spell slots.
Conclusions
Much better than I expected.
5th level has been the most satisfactory level so far.
Enough spells and a Concentration modifier high enough to use Spell Combat frequently and safely, without sacrificing other abilities.
Combat Casting was very useful for Spell Combat. It doesn't mean that the Magus would be able to use Spell Combat properly at lower levels (i.e. 2nd level) if you take Combat Casting before. As I said for a lower level, taking Combat Casting at first level -and even 3rd level- instead of other feats hurts.
Everything else is ok, two thumbs up for the level 5th Magus.
| james maissen |
Before approaching the entrance of the valley the Magus casts Shocking Grasp and uses Spellstrike to store it for the next encounter.
2 flying small air elementals appear at 120' and they win initiative. The Magus casts Blur, the Fighter readies an attack.
When holding a charge you lose the spell if you cast another spell.
Spellstrike does not hold the spell in the weapon, rather it lets you deliver the spell via a weapon attack, much like anyone could do via an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack.
I think that this would have skewed your playtest a bit as its a tactic I'm reading your magus seems to have exploited a bit.
-James
| IkeDoe |
IkeDoe wrote:
Before approaching the entrance of the valley the Magus casts Shocking Grasp and uses Spellstrike to store it for the next encounter.
2 flying small air elementals appear at 120' and they win initiative. The Magus casts Blur, the Fighter readies an attack.When holding a charge you lose the spell if you cast another spell.
Spellstrike does not hold the spell in the weapon, rather it lets you deliver the spell via a weapon attack, much like anyone could do via an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack.
I think that this would have skewed your playtest a bit as its a tactic I'm reading your magus seems to have exploited a bit.
-James
Good point, makes sense, certainly it would make things a bit harder for the Magus, specially when it can cast many spells per day (after level 3rd or 4th imo).
| IkeDoe |
Level 6 and Level 7 Notes
We won't test more levels of the Magus, I will just comment about level 6 and 7, which are the last of what I consider low levels.
I will write a summary of the low level playtest in another post, later.
Level 6
Level 6 looks nice: +1 to BAB, one new 2nd spell-level slot and a new Magus Arcana. Only bad thing is that Shocking Grasp deals as much damage as it did before: 5d6 max.
Empowered Magic is an ok Magus Arcana for this level, casting an empowered Shocking Grasp (1.5 x 5d6) or an empowered Mirror Image (for more images) once per day is always useful.
Level 7
+1 to BAB again, 3rd level slots and what's more important: Medium Armor (usually it means +2 AC and speed down to 20').
I would prolly learn Haste and Fireball first. I know, Fireball has got a Save DC, something that isn't very high for a Magus, but Fireball is one of the best area spells of the game, and you can always use one.
Keen Edge is also a good spell because the Magus can't take the Improved Critical feat yet and this spell lasts 10 minutes/level !
| Silver Eye |
Great job dude!!!
I prize your dedication and organization to wrote and post this much!
Long live the magus!
| IkeDoe |
Great job dude!!!I prize your dedication and organization to wrote and post this much!
Long live the magus!
Nicely done...lots of good information in it under not terribly abnormal adventuring conditions and some useful insight into viable builds at low levels.
Thank you guys, I prize you for reading it, too long !!!
w0nkothesane
|
A nice read, I what you've done.
Very good advice about using Spell Combat at low levels compared to a greatsword.
I'd like to see Spell Combat moved to level 3-4ish and have something else granted at 2nd level, because as it is it seems like a trap for the first few levels. I'd rather they gain it at a higher level than lessen the penalties and wind up with too much power creep.
I'd be interested in seeing your results in a slightly larger party, such as a standard 4-5 person group, but I understand why that might not be possible. Regardless, thanks for the posts.
| IkeDoe |
Summary of Low level Playtest (level 1-7), Conclusions
1. Balance:
The class is balanced, but at some point it seems slighty underpowered. That point isn't a specific level, it depends on how you build your character, you can have problems at level 1, 2, 3, 4 and even 5. The problems last 1 level, 2 levels at most, unless you make a terrible build.
Balance problems aren't just the lack of some +1 bonus and thus the solution isn't just making class features more powerful, the problem comes from how these features work and the overall design of the class.
2. Gameplay:
At the very low levels the gameplay is uninteresting, frustrating or bad. However level 5+ was great, dealing 1d8+10+5d6 with your first attack and a realiable option to cast a spell while fighting in mele defensively = Win.
The class is difficult to figure out for the players at low level and you have to make dificult and gamey decisions for character creation and leveling up if you want to make it work.
The big problem was Spell Combat, it forces you to switch from two-handed-weapons (2d6 Greatswords or Polearms with reach) to one-handed-weapons. It is traumatic for a low level character and the benefits of Spell Combat are extremely circumnstancial at this point.
In order to make a competitive character it is mandatory to ignore Spell Combat for a while, It shouldn't happen. I understand that a Magus that uses two-handed-weapons and ignores Spell Combat all his life may be a viable option, that's kinda strange but ok, works for me.
In theory, the class gives many options and allows the creation of many builds, in practice there are issues.
3. Two handed weapons vs One handed weapons vs Rapier; High Str vs High Dex
At low level that is the big problem with Spell Combat, not the penalties.
The Magus can use all martial weapons but not shields. There is no reason to use Two-Weapon-Fighting. Thus your character should wield his weapons two handed. Some weapons can be used two-handed AND one-handed, others not. If you want to use Spell Combat you are gonna need a one-handed-weapon.
Summing up the options:
*A. Two handed weapons: I.e. Greatsword (2d6, instead of 1d8 Longsword) or a polearm (reach). Better choice for mele fighting. You can't use Spell Combat.
However you don't get Spell Combat at level 1 and you better use one of those weapons if you want to be useful at low levels. If you plan to use Spell Combat in the future you can't take weapon focus on those weapons or waste money on magic weapons, it means that at some point you have to switch to one-handed-weapons.
I haven't done the numbers or playtested mid and high levels, but may be possible for a character to use always two-handed-weapons, ignore Spell Combat, and enjoy the higher damage/reach, Heavy Armor and Spellstrike; I'm saying it as an interesting option, something positive about how you can customize the class, not something negative; however the way it is customized is a bit weird (ignoring a feature), I will talk about it again at end of the post.
*B. One handed weapons: I.e. Longsword. You can wield it two handed, for +1/2 Str Bonus damage, most of the time, and wield one handed only when you use Spell Combat, which isn't often at low levels (few spells to cast). You can use Spell Combat.
If you wield a longsword at level 1 you are underpowered, you can't even take the Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon (I.e. Bastard Sword) feat (you don't meet the BAB+1 prerequisite yet), even if you could take those feats why using that feat now when you can deal more damage buying a Greatsword. At level 1 you can, and you have to, use Greatswords and polearms. It damaged the flavor of the class, you begin using a Greatsword, a few level thereafter you are the master of longswords, well, could be worse.
The big problem is that at some point you have to use one-handed-weapons if you plan to use Spell Combat, and it has to be soon, that change is traumatic.
*C. Rapier or light weapons: I have seen that some people would want to play an "iconic elf Magus with a rapier and prolly High Dex". Well, it isn't iconic to me but it would be cool. The class doesn't support it very well, at least not at low levels.
We have seen that whether you have a longsword or a greatsword you are going to wield it two-handed most of the time, It also means High Str. You can't do this with a rapier or a light weapon.
Playing a level 1 or level 2 Magus with decent Strenght and Intelligence and a rapier makes no sense. Your damage drops from 2d6+4 (greatsword) or 1d8+4 (longsword) to 1d6+3 (rapier, at least the Crit range is better).
Now, let's say a Magus with a Rapier, the Weapon Finesse feat, and High Dex instead of Str: Str 13 and Dex 17. +2 AC, Rapier deals 1d6+1 damage. Doesn't look so bad, but you have wasted one feat (+3 hps if Toughness, +1 AC if Dodge..). Furthermore at high level you can wear Full Plates and you have to maximize Dex to get a good attack bonus, it means that you won't have better AC than other high level Magus and you will have worse damage modifiers. Mithral Full Plate +9 AC, +3 Max Dex; Mithral Breastplate +6 AC, +5 Max Dex; worth it? The better Crit range isn't an advantage, Scimitars also give that. Maybe we need better support for that build.
4. Spell Combat
It is related to 3. THW vs OHW.. The big problem is that it forces you to switch from two-handed-weapons (2d6 Greatswords or Polearms with reach) to one-handed-weapons. It is traumatic for a low level character and the benefits of Spell Combat are extremely circumnstancial at that point.
I didn't find the -4 attack penalty to be a problem, or a reason to NOT use Spell Combat, I used it to fight defensively in many cases!
The -2 to Concentration was annoying though, at low levels you have few spells, you use most of them before combat, and you don't want to loose one (yeah, that's only +10% failure chance, but you can cast spells without using Concentration and the feat Combat Casting is an horrible choice at low levels).
5. Spellstrike
Useful. Usually, if you hold the charge of a mele touch spell, you can attack using a standard action. With spellstrike you attack with your weapon, dealing damage with the weapon and the spell at the same time. Yes, touch AC is lower, but you are gonna hit with your sword sooner or later, if you casted the spell before the encounter you save one standard action.
Note that you can't cast other spells while holding the charge.
Now the bad things: It is unclear how it works and can be a bit complex, it was discussed in another thread and Jason said that he would modify the ability.
6. Low level Magus Arcana
Concentrate is ok, is worth saving a spell per day. Familiar gives neat benefits. Maneuver Mastery is mandatory for builds that use Combat Maneuvers (I haven't tested those builds though). Still Magic and Silent Magic are useful under some circumstances.
IMO those two need a revision: Spell Shield and Arcane Accuracy.
Spell Shield: The Magus has got the Shield Spell, that gives +4 to AC and lasts 1min/level (plus other advantages). Spell Shield is an inmediate action, but a Magus is going to be always in danger, you alwasy need AC, and you prepare for it, you don't need an emergency shield bonus to AC that burns your spell slots.
Arcane Accuracy: I can take another Magus Arcana and the Arcane Strike feat, +1 to +5 to damage, using a swift action, no spell burnt, infinite uses. Arcane Accuracy gives a bonus to attack (+1 to +6) which is much better, however it also uses a swift action (so Arcane Strike and Arcane Accuracy can't be used at the same time) and burns a spell each round (1st to 6th level).
7. Class Skills
Being a student of Magic he should prolly have more Knowledge skills, it would also improve his out-of-combat role in the party.
8. Spell list
You know a lot of spells, you can't cast all of them, so no problem here.
The new Touch Magus spells in UA (as Jason said) should fill the lack of that kind of spells in the list.
As I said, with a moderate Int, the Spellstrike feature and a high attack bonus, spells without Saving Throws are the best choice in most cases.
Available utility spells seem ok, just some notes:
-Why not See Invisibility? (nothing against Glitterdust, some people just likes the other spell )
-Minor issue: I would want to have some Core Rulebook mele touch spells in the Magus list, if possible, even if the spells in UA are a bit better. Some people just don't want to use spells from multiple books.
*Next Post: Suggestions
| IkeDoe |
Summary of Low level Playtest (level 1-7), Suggestions
I won't propose a big overhaul of the class because it doesn't need it, would need another playtest and overall is an ok class.
However my suggestions aren't enough to fix all the problems.
Spell Combat
I suggest those two ideas (one or both can be applied)
Penalties:
Get rid of the -2 penalty to Concentration. Reasons:
First, players will clearly see Spell Combat as a way to Cast Defensively using a full round action that gives the advantage of doing a mele attack with a -4 penalty. Of course it is more than that, but at the moment players just see penalties everywhere and can't see a clear way to use it.
Second, we have seen that using Spell Combat has additional penalties if a low level character tries to use it: i.e. one handed weapons lower damage and extremely circustancial. Low level characters that want to use Spell Combat need some kind of compensation and incentive, other characters won't use it.
There is no risk of power creep, low level characters that try to use Spell Combat do need some help (but not too much!)
3rd. Multiclassing shouldn't be a problem, you need a 6th level Magus Arcana to use this feature with spells from other classes.
Spell Combat level:
You should get Spell Combat at level 1 or level 3 IMO.
Spell Combat is usually related to taking the "Combat Casting" feat or the "Concentration" Magus Arcana. Those things happen at level 1 or 3.
For some characters 2nd level is too soon, for others 2nd level is too late. For the guy that wants to use a longsword or a rapier since level 1, and maybe taking Combat Casting, Spell Combat is needed at level 1 for better balance and gameplay. Characters that still want to use two-handed-weapons won't take any advantage of this change, so everything would be ok.
I'm for Spell Combat at level 1 without Concentration check penalties.
Spellstrike
Jason is going to modify it. I will just say that it should be more simple and versatile. IMO you should be able to "hold the charge" 8 h in the sword, and cast other spells while doing so (However you wouldn't be able to hold the charge of another spell neither in your hands or the sword, you could cast a spell and touch with your hands in the same round).
Magus Arcana
Spell Shield would be interesting if it lasts 2 rounds.
Arcane Accuracy would be interesting if it takes a free action OR it gives the bonus to damage and attack.
Options for High Dex Magus
The low level problems would be lessened by the modifications in Spell Combat.
I have seen builds of medium level Magus with high Dex that work ok, I'm not sure if that kind of character is still good after level 13, they don't really need the Heavy Armor feature.
Maybe an optional feature to Heavy Armor, for High Dex character (like taking Fighter's Armor Training 1 instead of Heavy Armor, or something like that). It's just an idea, I haven't done all the numbers.
Option for Magus that want to use Two-handed-weapons all his life and ignore Spell Combat
Some people may like the idea of a Fighter/Wizard with a big sword and Full Plate. They can't use Spell Combat for obvious reasons, but they should be supported by the class.
I'm pretty sure that you can get a Greatsword, ignore Spell Combat and play without problems till level 8. I suspect that It could even work until 14th level. After level 14th he may have problems, and the True Magus feature would be of little use.
Two different ideas (apply only one of them):
A. At high level the Magus can use Spell Combat while using two handed weapons, but suffers more penalties than a Magus using a one-handed-weapon. I.e. (numbers may change): Spell Combat doesn't allow the use of two-handed-weapons; Improved Spell Combat allows the use of two-handed-weapons, but you suffer Spell Combat penalties; True Magus allows you to use two-handed-weapons with the penalties of Improved Spell Combat, but not those of True Magus.
B. 1st level Magus is NOT proficient with most Two-Handed Melee weapons (only the Lance, that is useful only when mounted).
At first level the Magus chooses a path (like a Ranger style): Spell Combat or Two-handed-Magus.
Spell Combat is the usual path for characters that use one-handed-weapons.
Two-handed-Magus will never recieve Spell Combat, Improved Spell Combat, Greater Spell Combat and True Magus. Instead he is proficient with all Martial Weapons, which is enough to kill all kind of stuff at low level. He will get alternative bonuses and abilities at level 8, 14 and 20.
Note that this option makes things harder for some low level characters that wanted to use greatswords at level 1 and switch to longswords at level 3, so maybe it is a good idea to decrease the penalties of Spell Combat again, for better balance.
| IkeDoe |
A nice read, I what you've done.
Very good advice about using Spell Combat at low levels compared to a greatsword.
I'd like to see Spell Combat moved to level 3-4ish and have something else granted at 2nd level, because as it is it seems like a trap for the first few levels. I'd rather they gain it at a higher level than lessen the penalties and wind up with too much power creep.
I'd be interested in seeing your results in a slightly larger party, such as a standard 4-5 person group, but I understand why that might not be possible. Regardless, thanks for the posts.
Hi, thanks for reading.
Unfortunatelly I wasn't able to intimidate enough players to do the playtest.
My guess is that in a larger party it is easier to cast spells before combat, because it is easier to get more information if a character gets Stealth or high Perception. However in a larger party the skills and utility spells of the Magus are less useful. In larger parties encounters have more creatures, you get flanked more often imo, which makes Spell Combat and Concentration checks a bit more used.
| Epic Meepo RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 |
I'm pretty sure that you can get a Greatsword, ignore Spell Combat and play without problems till level 8.
My own playtesting supports your hypothesis. Through level 8, I found spell combat to be a useful every once in a while. (Best spell combat tactic I found: 5-ft. step, enlarge person, and full attack someone that started 20 feet away from the magus.) But just as often, my magus found it advantageous to make an ordinary, two-handed full attack.
Unless penalties are removed from spell combat and/or bonuses added to the magus class (such as a small-but-scaling supernatural shield bonus when fighting one-handed), I could easily see low-level magi ignoring spell combat and wielding greatswords. Or wielding reach weapons that get used for one round of spellstrike and then dropped, followed by one-handed weapons that get used for one round of spell combat and then dropped, followed by greatswords that get used for the remainder of the combat.
| Simon Legrande |
IkeDoe wrote:I'm pretty sure that you can get a Greatsword, ignore Spell Combat and play without problems till level 8.My own playtesting supports your hypothesis. Through level 8, I found spell combat to be a useful every once in a while. (Best spell combat tactic I found: 5-ft. step, enlarge person, and full attack someone that started 20 feet away from the magus.) But just as often, my magus found it advantageous to make an ordinary, two-handed full attack.
Unless penalties are removed from spell combat and/or bonuses added to the magus class (such as a small-but-scaling supernatural shield bonus when fighting one-handed), I could easily see low-level magi ignoring spell combat and wielding greatswords. Or wielding reach weapons that get used for one round of spellstrike and then dropped, followed by one-handed weapons that get used for one round of spell combat and then dropped, followed by greatswords that get used for the remainder of the combat.
Agreed. Just because you get the ability at level 2 doesn't mean you need to start using it right then. The penalties are a bit too high for regular use at low levels. Not that that's a bad thing, the Magus has other stuff it can do. I took a flail then grabbed Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.
| james maissen |
Agreed. Just because you get the ability at level 2 doesn't mean you need to start using it right then. The penalties are a bit too high for regular use at low levels. Not that that's a bad thing, the Magus has other stuff it can do. I took a flail then grabbed Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.
Posit the following:
The penalty to hit is too great for levels 2-7.
The forced concentration check makes the action far too risky when dealing with so few spells.
Were the action to be able to be made without either of these the ability would be limited by spells per day and not be egregious.
So I conclude that rather than simply not using the ability until level 8, that doing away with the penalties would be the way to go.
Best spell combat tactic I found: 5-ft. step, enlarge person, and full attack someone that started 20 feet away from the magus
Except enlarge person doesn't have a casting time of 1 standard action so you can't use spell combat with it.
But your conclusions are solid.
-James
| Starbuck_II |
I feel the Greatsword should have been used by the Fighter as well. Bastardsword is only +1 damage over longsword on average same minimum.
| IkeDoe |
Thanks for reading guys.
Not being able to use shields, and being a character that, in theory, should use one handed weapons is a problem in 3.5 and PF.
There are feats for TWF, there aren't feats for Free hand fighting. The only support for that fighting style is a PrC and a Fighter variant.
Thus the class needs some extra advantage for those that use one handed weapons. I guess that Spell Combat is that advantage, but at low levels it is a very weak advantage: too many penalties and too few chances to use it.
I feel the Greatsword should have been used by the Fighter as well. Bastardsword is only +1 damage over longsword on average same minimum.
The fighter is using a Shield (I forgot to write it in the fighter's equipment for the first levels), that's why he gets a high AC but not so high damage. Since he got a lot of feats to spend it took the exotic weapon prof for extra damage.
The greatsword is an option for a fighter, but imo weapon+shield is as good as that, or better.| james maissen |
The greatsword is an option for a fighter, but imo weapon+shield is as good as that, or better.
It basically comes down to preference between AC and damage, and that will depend upon the party.
I prefer to compare the greatsword fighter to the magus as this lower AC fighter will already have a better AC than the magus. Its much easier to see that a fighter that has 2-3points of AC on the magus (after the magus casts shield) and also dealing markedly more damage than the magus WHEN the magus is using up one of his spells for spell combat, simply blows the magus away.
You can run the numbers with the magus removing the penalty to hit and penalty on combat casting, and you will see its not out of whack here. Considering at low levels the magus has so few spells per day, they should be able to actually exceed the fighter for damage when burning through these resources... even if just marginally.
The rogue via sneak attack can reach up to the fighter (not quite matching them) but needs the circumstance to do so. Coupled with the rogue not being as durable in combat (both AC & hps) this seems reasonable.
The monk via flurry, spending ki point and using something like perfect strike (weapon adept alternate class) can even exceed the fighter. His AC, however, is even less than that of the rogue. In fact its very close to that of many magus builds.
The monk is a good comparison to the magus in that both have limited resources that they burn through to compete. They also have lowered hps, and generally bad ACs at low levels.
-James
Joseph Davis
|
While the greatsword is a great way to go with at low levels, for damage and such, if you plan on sinking feats into your weapon skills and proficiencies, I would go with a Bastard Sword. Simply for the fact that at low levels you can 2h it with no problem, since it's a martial weapon if wielded 2h. You could even weapon focus it at that point for the +1 bonus. Later on, if you want to sink the feat in it, when you get a high enough attack bonus, to make it a 1h weapon with 1d10 damage. It's a rather clunky way to go about it, but many times, there's players that don't know where to spend feats.
Now, this is assuming the Weapon Focus is universal between the martial and exotic application of the sword.
EDIT: Also, great post! While I have a great respect for theory crafting, it's supremely satisfying to see someone go out of their way to playtest it so extensively.
LazarX
|
It should be noted that Spell Combat IS the Magus version of Two Weapon Fighting, the iconic gish which this class was created to address is essentially a sword in one hand, and a cackling ball of energy in another.
The only thing wrong in a couple of examples was the order you had your prep spells. You cast shocking grasp AFTER you do your buffs since casting a spell discharges a held touch spell.
As noted before the Magus is the only character who can cast a spell while fighting defensively. Spell combat essentially does for this clas which no other gets... an upping of the action economy.
| IkeDoe |
Just a quick note about something that I didn't explained before.
With spells, Spellstrike, Spell Combat and Magus Arcana(s) the class is complex enough.
I say that because I have seen discussions about Ki points, Arcane Pools, new X times a day basic features, etc... If the class gets more complex and the players has to take more things in mind the Magus will more likely implode under the weight of so many stuff.
Not that I wouldn't like more features, but after playtesting it, I feel that if it is done in a way that makes the class more complex it will become too tedious for most players.
| Quantum Steve |
Just a quick note about something that I didn't explained before.
With spells, Spellstrike, Spell Combat and Magus Arcana(s) the class is complex enough.
I say that because I have seen discussions about Ki points, Arcane Pools, new X times a day basic features, etc... If the class gets more complex and the players has to take more things in mind the Magus will more likely implode under the weight of so many stuff.
Not that I wouldn't like more features, but after playtesting it, I feel that if it is done in a way that makes the class more complex it will become too tedious for most players.
Both the Bard and the Monk are very ability heavy classes. I don't think either of them are complicated. As far as "Ki Points and Arcane Pools" go, the most oft discussed implementation of these is the simplest: Use a feature similar to Ki Points instead of spell slots to power Magus Arcanas. The Monk doesn't implode from Ki Points, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, and a half dozen other abilties.
Just sayin'| IkeDoe |
IkeDoe wrote:Just a quick note about something that I didn't explained before.
With spells, Spellstrike, Spell Combat and Magus Arcana(s) the class is complex enough.
I say that because I have seen discussions about Ki points, Arcane Pools, new X times a day basic features, etc... If the class gets more complex and the players has to take more things in mind the Magus will more likely implode under the weight of so many stuff.
Not that I wouldn't like more features, but after playtesting it, I feel that if it is done in a way that makes the class more complex it will become too tedious for most players.Both the Bard and the Monk are very ability heavy classes. I don't think either of them are complicated. As far as "Ki Points and Arcane Pools" go, the most oft discussed implementation of these is the simplest: Use a feature similar to Ki Points instead of spell slots to power Magus Arcanas. The Monk doesn't implode from Ki Points, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, and a half dozen other abilties.
Just sayin'
The Monk hasn't got Spells, and many of its abilities are pasive. The Bard is an spontaneous caster, otherwise would be quite complex (complex when playing it).
| IkeDoe |
Well, that's my version of the Magus based on the previous playtest, information from other sources and many deliberations.
I don't think you guys are gonna like it, I'm not much satisfied either, but it is good way to sum up my conclusions.
The 1st level guy using a longsword or a scimitar could still use some more help but I didn't wanted to screw up high levels.
Modifying the level of each ability would be a nice idea.
A new ability that gives you a +1 shield AC when using one handed weapons or light weapons as someone suggested isn't a bad idea. The bonus is useless when you can cast many Shield spells per day, but would be a nice bonus for low level characters.
1st Cantrips, Spellstrike, Spell combat
2nd -
3rd Magus arcana
4th Arcane weapon
5th Bonus feat
6th Magus arcana
7th Armor Expertise
8th Fighter training (moved from 10th to 8th)
9th Magus arcana
10th -
11th Bonus feat
12th Magus arcana
13th Armor Master
14th Greater spell combat
15th Magus arcana
16th Counterstrike
17th Bonus feat
18th Magus arcana
19th Weapon call (Weapon Bond)
20th True magus
Starting Wealth: 5d6 × 10 gp (Average 175 gp)
Class skills: The same, but all knowledge skills are class skills now.
Note: It makes him a better replacement for the Fighter/Wizard and gives him more things to do out of combat.
Spellstrike:
Same, plus the following sentences (still needs more clarifications and better wording).
"If the weapon melee attack scores a Critical hit, using the weapon Crit range, the spell damage is also multiplied by the Critical multiplier of the weapon."
"As usual, you can hold the charge of the spell, but you can do so for 8 hours. Unlike normal melee spells it won't be discharged if you touch something or someone unintentionally. Furthermore you can cast other spells while holding the charge, however if you try to hold the charge of another spell or deliver another melee touch attack the charge being hold will be dispelled without effect. You can touch willing targets using harmless spells."
Spell combat:
The same as original, but penalties as Improved Spell Combat (-0 to Concentration, -2 to attack).
Note: Characters with one handed weapons (i.e. longswords) need more love at low level, guys with THW don't (i.e. Greatsword or Glaive), atm Spell Combat is the only thing that doesn't work with THW.
However it isn't enough, specially at 1st level when you have few spells to cast, the damage gap is about 2.5, one handed weapons are better in a grapple and a bit more versatile, but overall wielding the TWH at first level is still better. I haven't added another bonus for one-handed-weapons or decreased the Spell Combat penalties to 0/0 because other players usually report that mid/high level Magus are ok.
Armor Expertise:
Replaces Medium Armor. The same as Medium Armor, and the following sentences.
"Whenever he is wearing light armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1."
Note: To give better support to characters with high Dex.
Armor Master:
Replaces Heavy Armor. The same as Heavy Armor, and the following sentences.
"Whenever he is wearing medium armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1."
Note: To give better support to characters with high Dex.
Greater Spell Combat:
The same, and the following sentences.
"Now you can use Spell Combat when wielding a melee weapon two handed, but instead of the usual penalties you suffer a -4 penalty to attacks."
Note: Could use better damage calculations when comparing THW and OHW+SpellStrike when choosing the penalty.
Magus Arcana (Arcane Accuracy): Same as the original, but it gives the bonus both to damage and attack.
Magus Arcana (Spell Shield): Same as the original, but it is a Dodge bonus to AC.