I think the Magus Reflection Arcana is too powerful. It's better than counterspelling even with the Improved Counterspell and Parry Spell feats!
First of all, you can counter a spell with any spell of the same level. Even the Improved Counterspelling feat isn't that versatile, with that feat you have to spend a higher level spell and it has to be of the same school as the spell being countered.
Second, it not only cancels it, it reflects it back at the caster, basically giving the magus a free Parry Spell feat.
Third, and most important of all, the Magus doesn't have to ready an action to counter the incoming spell! It's an immediate action for him! And since there is no daily limit to this ability (other than expending spell slots), the Magus can unleash this power far too often to be balanced, IMO.
Granted, the magus can "only" counter spells up to 6th level. But so what? As someone who frequently plays spellcasters I can tell you that even at high level, I use 6th level and lower spells very often.
I suggest either limiting it to one us per day, like most of the other arcana abilities, or require the Magus to ready an action to counter incoming spells, like all other spellcasters must do to counterspell.
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I think the Magus Reflection Arcana is too powerful. It's better than counterspelling even with the Improved Counterspell and Parry Spell feats!
First of all, you can counter a spell with any spell of the same level. Even the Improved Counterspelling feat isn't that versatile, with that feat you have to spend a higher level spell and it has to be of the same school as the spell being countered.
Second, it not only cancels it, it reflects it back at the caster, basically giving the magus a free Parry Spell feat.
Third, and most important of all, the Magus doesn't have to ready an action to counter the incoming spell! It's an immediate action for him! And since there is no daily limit to this ability (other than expending spell slots), the Magus can unleash this power far too often to be balanced, IMO.
Granted, the magus can "only" counter spells up to 6th level. But so what? As someone who frequently plays spellcasters I can tell you that even at high level, I use 6th level and lower spells very often.
I suggest either limiting it to one us per day, like most of the other arcana abilities, or require the Magus to ready an action to counter incoming spells, like all other spellcasters must do to counterspell.
You do know spell turning doesn't work on all spells right? You can't spell turn effect or AoE spells for example. Nor can you reflect touch range spells. So it's not quite like counterspelling. You can counterspell a web...reflection will do diddle and squat to web.
Hmm, I actually agree it's slightly overpowered.
1. I would make it once a round. A volley of spellcasters against a fresh magus wouldn't be able to touch him (aleu he would destroy his prepared list)
2. Add in 'The magus cannot use this ability if he is not aware of the spell being cast.'
Considering that it requires an immediate action it is once a round.
How would he not be aware of the spell being cast? The only class with an ability like that is the sandman bard.
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How would he not be aware of the spell being cast? The only class with an ability like that is the sandman bard.Let's see...
1. If he has not acted on the combat (Flat-Footed)
2. If the spell being cast is from someone stealthed (Flat-Footed)It's not like your eyes move directly to where the spell is being cast when it is being cast. There's plenty of times I can think of that players could be unaware of a spell being cast at them.
Flat footed is not unaware. Your guard is down, but your not blind and deaf. However if you are flat footed, you don't have any actions yet...even immediate ones so you can not use this ability.
How would he not be aware of the spell being cast? The only class with an ability like that is the sandman bard.Let's see...
1. If he has not acted on the combat (Flat-Footed)
2. If the spell being cast is from someone stealthed (Flat-Footed)It's not like your eyes move directly to where the spell is being cast when it is being cast. There's plenty of times I can think of that players could be unaware of a spell being cast at them.
Start of combat doesn't mean unaware, it means unprepared. Not the same thing.
Stealth doesn't prevent you from knowing a spell is being cast. Please note you can always AoO even if they are invisible and still/silent casting a spell so long as you threaten. There is no such thing as "stealth casting" with the sole exception of the sandman bard.
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
please realize a stealthed opponent doesn't make you flat footed.
There is no such thing as "stealth casting" with the sole exception of the sandman bard.You are not reading the entire text of the "Dramatic Subtext" Ability of the "Sandman Bard"
A spell with no components (Such a Verbal only spell cast with "Silent Spell" Feat) qualifies as a "no DEX" spell if the spellcaster is considered "not visible" to the opponent. In this kind of case, I would want the Magus to be unable to turn the spell.At 9th level, a sandman can use bardic
performance to cast spells without obvious visual or audible
components while retaining the spell’s normal effects.
Perhaps you don't know what the words "sole exception" mean?
I specifically pointed out this exception -- as it is the only one. This is the only case where a caster can cast a spell and not be noticed. Duh. I said that. What is your point?
Just because a spell lacks components doesn't mean you don't know a spell is being cast. You still get the AoO, you can still identify the spell as it is being cast, and it doesn't do anything other than allow you to cast said spell with your hands tied, in a silenced area.
The sandman bard ability specifically lets you get around this. It is the only way to do so.
No you are incorrect. You don't lose your Dex bonus just because you can't sense the components of the spell. You are not flat footed, and if you can AoO against you casting the spell then they know you are casting, they aren't denied anything, it's not "stealthy casting" of any flavor.
I'm aware that the dramatic subtext still allows you to AoO the bard, but that is the very closest you can come to "stealthly" casting a spell. Which was my point.
Now if I am unaware of you and you get a surprise round on me, then you can cast the spell in any way you want because I can't react due to the surprise round. Still, silent it doesn't matter because I'm flat footed. If you beat my initiative at the beginning of the next round then I am still flat footed you can again cast a spell to which I can't react (with or without still/silent spell). This has to do with me being flat footed -- not with the fact I'm denied my Dex bonus -- which is a completely different status effect.
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Please note you can always AoO even if they are invisible and still/silent casting a spell so long as you threaten.
Incorrect. You cannot make attacks of opportunity against an invisible foe, as creatures with invisibility are treated as having total concealment, and you cannot make attacks of opportunity against creatures with total concealment. (PFRPG p.197) Also, spells cast as swift actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, just to clear that up too. (PFRPG p.213).
Jeremy Puckett
Please note you can always AoO even if they are invisible and still/silent casting a spell so long as you threaten.Incorrect. You cannot make attacks of opportunity against an invisible foe, as creatures with invisibility are treated as having total concealment, and you cannot make attacks of opportunity against creatures with total concealment. (PFRPG p.197) Also, spells cast as swift actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, just to clear that up too. (PFRPG p.213).
Jeremy Puckett
If they have total concealment then you don't threaten them do you? As I said as long as you threaten them they provoke.
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Reflection is kinda weak as it burns your swift action for your next action. It limited to spells of equal or lower level, but this is a class that is drowning in swift actions already limiting its ability to function.
1. Shield Spell
2. Hasten Assault
3. Reflection
4. Arcane Accuracy
5. Critical Strike
6. Dispelling Strike
7. Arcane Strike (Yea its a feat, but Magus is built for it)
8. Quicken Spell
Those are 8 abilities that are all fighting for your 1 swift action in a round....
I would add a Counterspell ability as a requirement before picking up Reflection....
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The key part of the entire ability is that the magus needs to be level 15 to take it. 15 means other casters have level 8 spells. Since magi will never get level 8 spells, that's no threat. Magi can only reflect level 5 or lower. And in Society play, the game doesn't go to level 15.
Yeah...not overpowered at all.
The key part of the entire ability is that the magus needs to be level 15 to take it. 15 means other casters have level 8 spells. Since magi will never get level 8 spells, that's no threat. Magi can only reflect level 5 or lower. And in Society play, the game doesn't go to level 15.
Yeah...not overpowered at all.
Agreed--it's certainly extremely potent, particularly the next level, when you can also reflect 6th-level spells, and it will probably see a healthy amount of use. But that's a good thing--Magus is a 3/4 BAB class with 6th-level casting and few early entries--it thrives on having some very awesome specials.
If they have total concealment then you don't threaten them do you? As I said as long as you threaten them they provoke.Please note you can always AoO even if they are invisible and still/silent casting a spell so long as you threaten.Incorrect. You cannot make attacks of opportunity against an invisible foe, as creatures with invisibility are treated as having total concealment, and you cannot make attacks of opportunity against creatures with total concealment. (PFRPG p.197) Also, spells cast as swift actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, just to clear that up too. (PFRPG p.213).
Jeremy Puckett
So you get an AoO even if they are invisible if you threaten, but you cannot threaten if they are invisible? I confused...
If a stealthed archer shoots an arrow at you, you are denied dex against the first attack they make. This provokes an AoO for anyone threatening.
If an archers with normal invisibility shoots an arrow at you, you are denied dex against the first attack them make. This provokes an AoO for anyone threatening.
If a rogue succeeds a feint check then throws a dagger at you, you are denied you dex against the dagger. This provokes an AoO for anyone threatening.
If a sandman bard makes their check to hide their spell, I see no reason why you wouldn't be denied your dex against the attack. Further, if the sandman bard casts on the defensive, you wouldn't even get an AoO.
Sorry guys, but not only is this ability not overpowered, it's not even good.
You get it at the earliest at 15th level, when you have 5th level spells.... and a speedbump Wizard or Cleric you might face in combat has 8th level spells, and many of his 1-5th level spells can't be reflected by this ability.
Look through Spell Turning and see what kind of things it can reflect. Then look at all the good spells from level 1-9 and notice how many can't be reflected, and when you are done look at the 7-9th level spells this will never be affected by it.
Then notice that it costs you spells.
If this ability were a magic item, you'd sell it. Fast. At best, it should be reflecting back puny spells cast by partial casters like various demons.... you know, the spells you don't even care if you save against.
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Sorry guys, but not only is this ability not overpowered, it's not even good.
You get it at the earliest at 15th level, when you have 5th level spells.... and a speedbump Wizard or Cleric you might face in combat has 8th level spells, and many of his 1-5th level spells can't be reflected by this ability.
Look through Spell Turning and see what kind of things it can reflect. Then look at all the good spells from level 1-9 and notice how many can't be reflected, and when you are done look at the 7-9th level spells this will never be affected by it.
Then notice that it costs you spells.
If this ability were a magic item, you'd sell it. Fast. At best, it should be reflecting back puny spells cast by partial casters like various demons.... you know, the spells you don't even care if you save against.
Like say that feeblemind?
Dominate Person?Phantasmal Killer?
Dispel Magic?
Greater Dispel Magic?
Baleful Polymorph?
Flesh to Stone?
Trap the Soul?
Disintigrate?
Enervation?
Yeah none of those puny spells are ones you would want to reflect back at the caster.
He is right about it coming to high level and it eating spells, but saying it is outright useless is a fallacy.
Please note you can always AoO even if they are invisible and still/silent casting a spell so long as you threaten.Lol is this real?
Wow.
You could at least be constructive about your mockery, mr cfalcon.
Abraham, you are wrong. Not using the weapon you wield doesn't keep you from threatening with it. Thus a character that is threatening an area and casts a spell still threatens the area.
Like say that feeblemind?
Dominate Person?
Phantasmal Killer?
Dispel Magic?
Greater Dispel Magic?
Baleful Polymorph?
Flesh to Stone?
Trap the Soul?
Disintigrate?
Enervation?Yeah none of those puny spells are ones you would want to reflect back at the caster.
He is right about it coming to high level and it eating spells, but saying it is outright useless is a fallacy.
I didn't say it was useless. I said it was "not good" as opposed to "overpowered."
I mean, there is a very short list of spells that Spell Turning affects that I care about, but when cast by an unoptimized NPC caster with minimal DCs I'd rather have my own slots, thank you.
Several of the spells on your list I'd also just rather not reflect at all. Dispel Magic has a cap on the dispel check, so the chance of knocking off any spells when reflected is low. Phantasnmal Killer has two save DCs and so rarely ever works, and when you take into account low caster DCs I'd much, much rather have my 4th level slot.
Trap the Soul is a 8th level effect, so it will never be affected by the Magus ability because he only gets 6th level spells.
Dominate Person also has a low chance of working because the chances of your caster being a Humanoid is terribly low. Plus, the standard Circle against Evil/Good/Law/Chaos protects people all day and any caster with one should have the other.
Disintegrate and Enervation both require a touch attack.... I don't know if the caster makes that or I do and it's a DM call, but in a lot of situations that's not going to be useful. Both are are also pretty underwhelming considering the kinds of effects that get tossed around at 15th level.
So by my count, that's maybe 4-5 effects I care about on that list, meaning that there is a high chance I will play from level 15-20 and never use this ability because the relevant spells never come up, never get cast on me specifically so I can reflect them, or are such low DC crap the enemy wouldn't be affected even if they are reflected.
Even if the spells do come up and might be useful, there is a good chance my own slots are more valuable to me.
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And you miss half the point of Reflect spell...
Its not just about reflecting the spells its about being an immediate action counterspell.
Dispel magic would have a DC 26 TN on a D20 + 15 check on average it will eat one of your or there buffs. I reflect his dispel magic at him and have a chance to get the highest level buff he has on him. Also as he is the caster the check is auto succeed there is no cap in Pathfinder on dispel magic. (Play testing would have told you this)
Greater Dispel magic is even worse to have hit you and even better to reflect.
Protection from Evil etc only works if its cast on you afterwards giving you a new saving throw and only works if the opponent fills the alignment and furthermore lasts 1 minute a level so it can't give you all day protection.
Trap the soul ooops meant Magic Jar...
Your comments make the following assumptions
1. All saving throws will auto succeed and opponents will be easy to ignore.
2. There is no value in using it as a counterspell and ignoring the reflection portion.
3. That a possible 30d6 damage (On average about 90 points more then enough to force an instant death check on a player given max hit points would be around 165 or so.) or -4 to everything and -20 hp is underwhelming.
4. At 15th level everyone just ignores thier spells lower then 6th level and just uses those 1 8th and 1 7th.
I'm begining to wonder if you even play the game....
All of your examples are fort or wisdom. Those are the Magus' two high saves.
So far you've shown that Reflection is vaguely useful against two or three specific spells. That's not exactly "overpowered"
Meanwhile the wizard casts anything above level 5 and, welp, there goes that.
So yeah, no. Reflection isn't that good.
And you miss half the point of Reflect spell...
Its not just about reflecting the spells its about being an immediate action counterspell.Dispel magic would have a DC 26 TN on a D20 + 15 check on average it will eat one of your or there buffs. I reflect his dispel magic at him and have a chance to get the highest level buff he has on him. Also as he is the caster the check is auto succeed there is no cap in Pathfinder on dispel magic. (Play testing would have told you this)
It's a 50% to stop a buff, and if reflected it's a 50% chance to stop one of their buffs (with the Greater version dropping half of the buffs).
Playtesting tells me that when my party is using effects that have a 50% to kill the enemy or remove them from battle and the enemy is using Dispel Magic to take off buffs, my party is going to steamroll them with a minimum of resources spent.
Playtesting tells me that Magus buffs are mostly meaningless and I am am happy to have a enemy lose an action dropping some or all of them if it means they aren't doing something else that round.
Playtesting tells me that when I have a limited store of spell slots I don't want to waste them on things that won't have a dramatic effect on the enemy, like reflecting a targetted dispel.
But yes, I confused the Pathfinder version with the 3.0/3.5 version. Its a good thing it still doesn't matter.
Greater Dispel magic is even worse to have hit you and even better to reflect.
Protection from Evil etc only works if its cast on you afterwards giving you a new saving throw and only works if the opponent fills the alignment and furthermore lasts 1 minute a level so it can't give you all day protection.
I said Circle Against Evil, which lasts 10/mins a level and covers the whole party and is going last your entire adventuring day consisting of several hours.
1. All saving throws will auto succeed and opponents will be easy to ignore.
2. There is no value in using it as a counterspell and ignoring the reflection portion.
3. That a possible 30d6 damage (On average about 90 points more then enough to force an instant death check on a player given max hit points would be around 165 or so.) or -4 to everything and -20 hp is underwhelming.
4. At 15th level everyone just ignores thier spells lower then 6th level and just uses those 1 8th and 1 7th.I'm begining to wonder if you even play the game....
Let's take these one at a time:
1. Most of these spells will be easy to ignore. Feeblemind attacks Will, which is your good save. Disintegrate is a fine spell, but it fails on a missed touch attack AND a Fort save (which is a high chance with Fort also being a good save and being a class inclined to have a very high touch AC with self-buffs and melee stats like Dex). Enervation is just "some damage" equal to 1d4 of your HD + your Con mod and it knocks out some of your slots, and a minor penalty so small it's possible I won't notice, and it STILL has to hit you (a guy with a good touch AC).
So yes, I don't care a lot about these spells. Considering that the spells on this list that matter at all take up about less than 5% of the spells that might be cast at you, this makes the ability to reflect them effectively a non-ability because you might go five levels and have it never come up.
If you play the game, you realize that the odds of you being targetted by the few effects that you would care to reflect is so small because you are in a party of 4-8 people who also might be targetted on top of the fact it has to be one of the few spells that matter at all or can even be reflected by Spell Turning. Heck, you might even get one cast at you, but not have the slots to reflect it, further lowering the odds of this ability of ever coming into play.
2. The value as a counterspell is equal to the value of the slot it burns. Considering it could be burning my very highest slots, it is potentially removing my ability to make meaningful and level-appropriate combat actions. There is a good chance I'd prefer the slot.
3. Disintigrate is a fine spell IF you hit AND IF you make them fail the save, but it barely makes the list of spells I care about. At 15th level, I won't be affected by it but I might want to cast it. (And see above for Enervation).
At 15th level things have very high saves.
4. Yes, at 15th level people don't cast their lower level spells because the DCs are lower and have a lesser chance of success, and they have enough higher level slots to cast those spells in every combat and still never touch their lower level slots.
Worse is the fact that people use Heighten Spell to use the lower level spells in higher level slots for the boost in DC. I mean, if you are using a Save or Die like Disintegrate regularly, you are not using a lower level spell slot if you can help it. The Magus's Spell Turning won't affect a Disintegrate heightened to even 7th level.
Lower level slots are used for buffs and utility, or for spells without saves. Higher levels spells are for attacks because the chance of a successful save turning your spell into a failed action and a waste of a slot is less in a higher level slot.
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Yeah your applying 3.5 rules to Pathfinder essentially invalidating your arguement.
1. I disagree especially about enervate it won't knock out spell slots it will how ever lower your bab your saves and your caster level. The potential of -4 to hit and saves alone concerns me the potential loss of 20 hp not so much. 3.5 has both a stronger and a weaker enervate Especially since there is no save on enervate then pathfinder. Really you should learn Pathfinder rules....
2. That depends there are times when I'd rather lose the spell slot then be left unable to fight or dead or working for the enemy.
3. Yes it will probably hit its highly unlikely to miss basic math should tell you to hit outstrips ac especially for ranged touch attacks against armor wearing classes, will they fail the save well that depends, your qualifying Lvl 15 = awesome saves the reality is that may not be the case.
4. Actually they do still cast lower level spells and Metamagic feats don't actually increase the level of the spell so a Quickened Feeblemind is still a 5th level spell despite taking a 9th level slot. Heighten is an exception and unlikely to be used as you typically want those higher level spells.
I should point out that while will is your strong save will is also a dump stat making you more vulnerable to will saves then normal even at 15th level. Especially when combined with Mind fog and other methods to lower your saves which any intelligent dm is going to do at high level play along with optimise encounters so you don't steam roll your way through.
Your argument is literally "No see if the wizard spends two or three rounds in advance debuffing you and then attacks you with one or two specific spells while for whatever reason ignoring his higher level spell slots...
...THEN Reflection is useful!"
Look, I'll grant that there are a few - a very small number but still existant - cases where Reflection can come in handy. But the title of this topic is "Magus Reflection Arcana - Overpowered?"
No. It's not overpowered.
Please note you can always AoO even if they are invisible and still/silent casting a spell so long as you threaten.Lol is this real?
Wow.
You could at least be constructive about your mockery, mr cfalcon.
Abraham, you are wrong. Not using the weapon you wield doesn't keep you from threatening with it. Thus a character that is threatening an area and casts a spell still threatens the area.
Obviously you didn't read what I stated. I said you can always AoO, even if they are... so long as you threaten.
This is a true statement. If they have concealment to you you don't threaten them, therefore you can not AoO. So long as you threaten you can take your AoO, (provided you have one left to take). It doesn't matter what you have been doing or what you threaten with (even if it is just your unarmed strike).
Yeah your applying 3.5 rules to Pathfinder essentially invalidating your arguement.
1. I disagree especially about enervate it won't knock out spell slots it will how ever lower your bab your saves and your caster level. The potential of -4 to hit and saves alone concerns me the potential loss of 20 hp not so much. 3.5 has both a stronger and a weaker enervate Especially since there is no save on enervate then pathfinder. Really you should learn Pathfinder rules....
Sorry, I didn't know that Pathfinder Enervate is completely worthless now. I welcome spellcasters to cast Enervate at me because small penalties and HP damage mean nothing, even if they stack because by the time those penalties are meaningful they are dead.
2. That depends there are times when I'd rather lose the spell slot then be left unable to fight or dead or working for the enemy.
There are times like that, and I'm saying that they are exceedingly rare. I mean, if you have a Cleric or Wizard in the party you are constantly in a Circle of Protection for every part of your adventure, so you don't even care if someone tries to mind control you or try to use Magic jar.
3. Yes it will probably hit its highly unlikely to miss basic math should tell you to hit outstrips ac especially for ranged touch attacks against armor wearing classes, will they fail the save well that depends, your qualifying Lvl 15 = awesome saves the reality is that may not be the case.
Your basic math is wrong.
As wealth goes up, characters get bigger Touch ACs because they add in weird little bonuses like insight and luck bonuses and deflection bonuses and unnamed bonuses while to hit bonuses increase at a static rate. By 15th level, a PC might actually be impossible to hit by a Wizard, though a properly buffed Cleric might have a chance.
As an exercise, take 200K and do a little shopping for magic items and see just how high you can get your defenses (because as a Magus, you don't need to buy a weapon).
4. Actually they do still cast lower level spells and Metamagic feats don't actually increase the level of the spell so a Quickened Feeblemind is still a 5th level spell despite taking a 9th level slot. Heighten is an exception and unlikely to be used as you typically want those higher level spells.
It's a good thing I was only talking about Heighten spell, eh?
Spellcasters who want their save or dies to do anything at all Heighten those spells for the added DCs, because an enemy that makes a save vs these spells negates your entire combat action if they save.
The only reason to Quicken a Feeblemind is to cast it with a Heightened Feeblemind and hope that if the high DC version fails, the lower DC version might not get saved against.
But, chances are better that you would never Quicken a save or die of any kind and save your higher level slots for better spells or Heightened save or die spells.
I should point out that while will is your strong save will is also a dump stat making you more vulnerable to will saves then normal even at 15th level. Especially when combined with Mind fog and other methods to lower your saves which any intelligent dm is going to do at high level play along with optimise encounters so you don't steam roll your way through.
Yeh, enemies that spend several rounds debuffing don't live long enough to fire off a spell capable of killing or removing a PC from play. Playing at high level is often called Rocket Launcher Tag for a good reason.
Plus, those debuffs have saves too. I mean, you are a high Will character so getting hit with a Mindfog just means you have a high chance of saving against it and not even being debuffed.