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@Jason Bulmahn: Hi Jason, first of all sorry for my eventual english mistakes (i'm italian). Why don't copy litteraly the Duskblade? People wants the full BAB, the 5\6 SL, some tricks (obviously not to much). It's all already done, if there are problems about the name, change it!
In my opinion this Magus is a selfish Bard, and for that role i don't think we need another class. The hole is for a class who can have good chance to hit in melee\ranged, and put spell in weapons.
The sorcerer with some combat ability alredy exist, the fighter with some arcane ability not yet...that is the way...all IMHO.
They are not going to chance their plans for the Magus, Jason said that much. If you want to contribute meaningfully, you therefore have two options: (1) Help Paizo come up with a "soft fix" for the Magus that retains its intended flavor (including the 3/4 BAB), or (2) plan ahead for a new base class / subclass / archetype to appear in Ultimate Combat. We are doing (2) in this thread.
That said, I think the Duskblade is a good starting point for (2). Apparently, it did what it was designed for; people used it, had fun with it, but didn't find it above-average in power. I'm just worried that, as written, it will become everybody's favorite 1-level dip class.
@Jason Bulmahn: Hi Jason, first of all sorry for my eventual english mistakes (i'm italian). Why don't copy litteraly the Duskblade? People wants the full BAB, the 5\6 SL, some tricks (obviously not to much). It's all already done, if there are problems about the name, change it!
In my opinion this Magus is a selfish Bard, and for that role i don't think we need another class. The hole is for a class who can have good chance to hit in melee\ranged, and put spell in weapons.
The sorcerer with some combat ability alredy exist, the fighter with some arcane ability not yet...that is the way...all IMHO.
That is an idea, but copy right infringement might be a problem, as the Duskblade is not open content.
However I agree. This class needs to be a Melee type with full base attack bonus, with magic flavor and mechanic abilities to-par with the other classes. We have in-be-tween classes already: Dualist, Inquisitor, Eldrich Knight, and to a degree the Dragon Disciple.
My idea would be use the barbarian's rage as a base for design. It grants bonuses, and minuses, for a set number of rounds. Balance out the negatives, adjust the bonuses for being spells, and bam! Balanced 1st level spells.
P.S. @Jason: I think this class needs a new spell progression. Just because they get full base attack does not mean they HAVE TO have the casting of a paladin or ranger. As I said above, make getting access to spells their main class feature, getting little other wise, like ability to cast in armor and shields.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I agree that the Spell Combat trick is very hard to pull off at low levels. That said, at mid-high levels (my playtest was a 10th level magus) it is trivially easy with Combat Casting, automatic for all but his highest-level spells.
The reasons Spellstrike isn't redundant with Spell Combat are simple:
1. Standard action (SS) vs. full-round action (SC) - you can move and do SS, or you can stand/5-foot step and do SC.
2. SS is only touch-whack-attack. SC is "cast any spell you want."
In either case, though, using SS and SC, while effective, burns through your spells really fast. Being able to attack and cast in the same round is pretty cool and pretty effective... for as long as your spell slots hold out (and, for the playtest, as long as your foe isn't immune to electricity).
Stack up a bunch of shocking grasp and Intensified Shocking Grasp and you'll hit pretty hard.
Personally, I can't see why the class needs spells like mount, unseen servant, floating disk, etc. I DO NOT think that those are useless at all, however, I don't think they make sense on this list. This is a class that is intended to be in melee combat while tossing spells around.
That's your interpretation not neccesarily the design intent. Otherwise the obviously ranged combat spells like lightning bolt, and fire snake wouldn't be on that list either, nor should the fact that the magus has the option to ranged martial weapons be ignored either.
I see this as a class with OPTIONS that can change from moment to moment. The class can cast at range like a standard wizard, and mix it up on close like a standard fighter, What it can do what neither can is mix spells and melee up close which is an intensely difficult proposition hence the success rate is low at first and gets better as the character becomes more proficient.
I believe that giving Combat Casting as free feat at first level would make spell combat sufficiently viable at lower levels, otherwise I think the mechanic is balanced. I do like having some utility spells in the class and I see no reason to get rid of the ones provided. I PREFER having choices.
The other option I'd like to see added would be to extend arcane weapon to ranged as an option this would give the magus a nice entry to the arcane archer PrC.
I didn't mean to imply that I think their only spells should be touch range or combat buffs. By all means, leave lightning bolt and such spells in. Those are offensive in nature, and are meant to be used in combat. My meaning was that since they receive so few spells per day, I can't think of a reason they would bother learning spells that are not going to be used in combat with relative frequency.
A martially minded caster could probably find use for defensive or combat-controlling spells such as grease, but utility spells such as floating disk make little sense to me. Those do not sound "martial" to me. The most martial spells I can think of are probably on the evocation or transmutation list.
I like having choices as well, but I think there is more room for choices elsewhere. You can't have all the utility of a wizard if you're NOT a wizard, and as such, I think the spell list should be more limited to those that would be most beneficial in battle as per the martial concept.
Personally, I can't see why the class needs spells like mount, unseen servant, floating disk, etc. I DO NOT think that those are useless at all, however, I don't think they make sense on this list. This is a class that is intended to be in melee combat while tossing spells around.
That's your interpretation not neccesarily the design intent. Otherwise the obviously ranged combat spells like lightning bolt, and fire snake wouldn't be on that list either, nor should the fact that the magus has the option to ranged martial weapons be ignored either.
I see this as a class with OPTIONS that can change from moment to moment. The class can cast at range like a standard wizard, and mix it up on close like a standard fighter, What it can do what neither can is mix spells and melee up close which is an intensely difficult proposition hence the success rate is low at first and gets better as the character becomes more proficient.
I believe that giving Combat Casting as free feat at first level would make spell combat sufficiently viable at lower levels, otherwise I think the mechanic is balanced. I do like having some utility spells in the class and I see no reason to get rid of the ones provided. I PREFER having choices.
The other option I'd like to see added would be to extend arcane weapon to ranged as an option this would give the magus a nice entry to the arcane archer PrC.
I didn't mean to imply that I think their only spells should be touch range or combat buffs. By all means, leave lightning bolt and such spells in. Those are offensive in nature, and are meant to be used in combat. My meaning was that since they receive so few spells per day, I can't think of a reason they would bother learning spells that are not going to be used in combat with relative frequency.
A martially minded caster could probably find use for defensive or combat-controlling spells such as grease, but utility spells such as floating disk make little sense to me....
Doesn't a fighter have a backpack? Doesn't a thief carry a rope? If I were a fighter-mage, utility spells might be at the top of my priorities. One or two spells to kill the bad guys, then enough utilities to make sure I can make it home to enjoy my treasure.
Doesn't a fighter have a backpack? Doesn't a thief carry a rope? If I were a fighter-mage, utility spells might be at the top of my priorities. One or two spells to kill the bad guys, then enough utilities to make sure I can make it home to enjoy my treasure.
Not only that but even if you don't prepare them for the day, with the utility spells on the list they can be cast from Scrolls or Wands where appropriate. You may not need floating disk every week of the month, but having a scroll or two makes the Magus very different then something like ye'old 3.5 Duskblade.
Unfortunately the game I was going to play in today wasn't to be as the GM need to deal with some home life issues of a far more pressing nature. However the Magus I was preparing for that game is taking Scribe Scroll as his first level feat instead of the assumed ones such as Combat Casting or Arcane Strike. I really want to see if using Scribe Scroll can help offset the Magus' limited pool of spells at lower levels, especially given the item crafting rules in Pathfinder.
Doesn't a fighter have a backpack? Doesn't a thief carry a rope? If I were a fighter-mage, utility spells might be at the top of my priorities. One or two spells to kill the bad guys, then enough utilities to make sure I can make it home to enjoy my treasure.
Equipment and spells are not analogous.
It is my OPINION that a class who is so strongly geared toward combat should be just that. They get few spells per day and only two spells known of any level they can cast as they level up.
I honestly don't care if those spells are left in the end product, so long as they do not keep those slots in lieu of more combat oriented spells. Should Unseen Servant bump off a new "Acid Claw" (I made this up) spell or some such and prevent it from making the list, then I will really have complaints.
As it stands, I would rather have Touch of Fatigue in the spell list than any of those utility spells.
I agree that the Spell Combat trick is very hard to pull off at low levels. That said, at mid-high levels (my playtest was a 10th level magus) it is trivially easy with Combat Casting, automatic for all but his highest-level spells.
The reasons Spellstrike isn't redundant with Spell Combat are simple:
1. Standard action (SS) vs. full-round action (SC) - you can move and do SS, or you can stand/5-foot step and do SC.
2. SS is only touch-whack-attack. SC is "cast any spell you want."
In either case, though, using SS and SC, while effective, burns through your spells really fast. Being able to attack and cast in the same round is pretty cool and pretty effective... for as long as your spell slots hold out (and, for the playtest, as long as your foe isn't immune to electricity).
Stack up a bunch of shocking grasp and Intensified Shocking Grasp and you'll hit pretty hard.
I'll second this opinion. I built a level 15 Magus and played him in a game in place of my druid, and he did well whilst his spell slots lasted (and pearls of power did heaps for that). I've expressed elsewhere the opinion that all the magus really needs to work is simply a pool of generic spell slots (or points, or whatever) to power his abilities, and he's set. His problem is not that he can't perform, it's that he can't last. Solve that, and we've got a solid character.
Taking on board some of the feedback on lower-level play, however, maybe giving him arcane weapon earlier (to pull him through the earlier levels), whilst delaying spell combat to a level where the penalties become less damaging to the use of the ability might be worth consideration.
From what I can tell, spell casting is working fine. I really like using the Magus Arcana to apply metamagic, and think the 1/day is the appropriate ammount. I mean, most wizards are not applying metamagic to too many of their spells and this way the Magus can do it on the fly. The class encourages people to go nova with their spell resources, which I think is an issue because it then leaves them with nothing and feeling inferior. But when the class does it can be extremely powerful.
I think the class needs to be boosted on the martial side, and I think it needs to be able to use non-spell resources to do this. As it stands now, it is often weaker than a bard, who also gets to buff allies, more skill points, other cool abilities, and has most of the same great buff spells at lower levels. Currently, the bonuses the class has to hit are not impressive and the class needs to use either a bastard sword or the little known rule of 2 handing 1 handed weapons to stay competative in the damage department. +1 hit and damage accross all levels would go a long way to fixing the class.
I really like spell combat. At first, I was against it. Then I started running numbers and figuring out percentages, and I have come to the conclusion that it is really well ballanced and I like it alot. I do not like that it makes combat casting a feat tax or that you must cast defensively even if you would not otherwise need to. I think it should be a -2 to any concentration checks made for the spell, but you have normal options concerning the check, including provoking an AoO.
I dislike the restrictions placed on Magus weapons. Currently they are limmitted to 1 handed weapons, even though they are profficient with so much. The restriction on their arcane bonded weapon and spell combat are restrictions that really hurt the class IMO. I really hate that you cannot use 2 handed weapons, eliminating reach builds, and that you cannot cast spells while using a ranged weapon without first stowing your bow and retrieving annother weapon.
Arcane Weapon has some wierd issues. For most levels it keeps the character roughly in line with a bard's inspire courage. It has 2 big flaws though IMO. The first is at high levels, 15+, it stops being effective on their primary weapon because you run into the +10 equivalent when stacking with the weapon's existing magic. This would not be an issue, except it is the only way the magus is keeping up in the hit and damage department with other classes, so now he starts to fall further behind. The second issue is dancing, which forces the magus to make concentration checks for not wielding their arcane bond while it is being used.
The second issue is dancing, which forces the magus to make concentration checks for not wielding their arcane bond while it is being used.
I didn't even see that. It needs to be clarified. Dancing says the creature isn't considered armed with the weapon BUT it is considered wielded for CM and effects targeting items. But that doesn't necessarily imply it is considered wielded for effects to the wielder.
the little known rule of 2 handing 1 handed weapons to stay competative in the damage department.
There are people that don't know that? ... /boggle
the little known rule of 2 handing 1 handed weapons to stay competative in the damage department.There are people that don't know that? ... /boggle
Yes, lots of people think the Bastard Sword is much more special than it really is.
In an attempt to fix the "fundamental problem," I tweaked the class quite a bit. Check it out and let me know what you think. The Magus Remake.
Running the Magus as is in ROTRL. Just finished the attack on sandpoint. The character survived readily enough and seems to fit in with the amount of action the other classes can handle pretty well. I have been using him in flanking moves and attacking from higher ground to offset some penalties.