Love Pathfinder, but it could use some epic adventuring

[EL_Kabong]

And by needs more epic I do directly mean 21+ content adventure wise, so far all the adventure paths have been great, the only problem is that there are a gazillion adventures for people wanting to play lvl 1-15 in a prebuilt environment.

Quicksilver Hourglass (Dungeon magazine 123) for a lvl 30 party is fantastic, but short of that the area is pretty lacking.

The epic(21+) setting in D&D has always been a touchy issue, some people are under the strict and unwavering belief that nothing good can come of it, and that epic levels in D&D are an irredeemably terrible idea due to the much faster pace at which characters power levels start to ramp up compared with the 1-20 range.

Others I've talked to claim that it's just WAAAAAY to much work (though to be fair, the one's i've talked with don't really make anything of their own for the most part relating to D&D).

A big question that always comes up is "Well at that stage in the game, players are just so powerful that they can do anything they can imagine" Which is true and false at the same time, because they can really only do anything that the DM allows (which is one of the key deciding factors to running an epic game with a party globe trotting around the cosmos).

Wizards release of the old ELH was a start, but aside from that and a few articles from the epic insights column that ended back in 2006 they really gave that whole realm of play almost no support at all, leaving the epic development to 3rd parties like players and DM's on Dicefreaks and the Immortals handbook series(I know there are others, but this is one of the higher quality sources I've come across).

Paizo's 17th starting lvl adventure is a step in the right direction, and hopefully they'll continue on moving upwards and onwards developing higher end content (perhaps continuations of the 1-15 adventure paths from 15/16-30 would be an idea to start with).

Anyway, here's hoping, mainly because putting these higher end adventures out there will help more people get their feet wet(without having to spend all the effort creating an epic campaign themselves if they're overwhelmed initially by the prospect) with hopefully the same high quality adventures we've seen thus far from the pathfinder series.

Cheers!

[bigkilla]

You are not going to see any epic stuff from Paizo anytime soon. They have a lot of other things planned before they even consider epic level play.

[Jared Ouimette]

But they'll eventually get around to it.

[EL_Kabong]

Jared Ouimette wrote:

But they'll eventually get around to it.

I'd hope so, you can only release so many adventures for the 1-20 range, I like how wizards recreated the new 4e for 1-30 play, but can't really stand how 4e is setup (if i wanted to play a boardgame id go play a boardgame).

[Jared Ouimette]

EL_Kabong wrote:

Jared Ouimette wrote:

But they'll eventually get around to it.

I'd hope so, you can only release so many adventures for the 1-20 range, I like how wizards recreated the new 4e for 1-30 play, but can't really stand how 4e is setup (if i wanted to play a boardgame id go play a boardgame).

No edition warring, the 4rrys will crucify you.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Paizo once commented that they have more demand for psionics than they do epic play. So I'd say it is safe to say that the earliest we'd see epic play is 2013. But frankly I'd guess later. I imagine we'd see psionics in 2012 or 2013 and an entry level game (pathfinder basic, if you will) being whichever year is not psionics.

[Kvantum]

Actually, from what I recall in terms of what has been said on the boards, I think the rough idea is for Epic (perhaps capping out at level 36, the same as old school D&D) in 2012 and Psionics in 2013, assuming Paizo decides to do something different for psionics and not just adopt the Dreamscarred Press update to Pathfinder-ish style.

[Zmar]

I'm not exactly sure if 4E can be caled epic just because there is 20+ number in the level box. It's about adventure design and your impact on the world, not about your ability to reroll an attack and use a daily power twice. You can have an epic adventure on lvl 15 just as well as on lvl 36. Ad I mean in both games.

[rowdy55]

Well, an Epic adventure should be based on the design of the adventure itself, not how big the levels are, even the Savage Tide campaign began dealing with events that threatened the entire cosmos, at lvl 17.
If you want your players to go past lvl 20, let them go past 20, especially if they have earned that much experience.

[DarkLordSusan]

I have played a lot of different game systems, and one of the biggest hangups i have with D&D/Pathfinder is the "Level" concept, where does it end, what is "Epic", and all that. the system of scaling levels and massive HP etc as you go up in level is somewhat of a detraction from the fun of the game in my mind. It quite simply gets out of hand if you go higher than 20-30 range. I could get into an exhaustive list of all the strange issues that can crop up at ludicrously high levels, but it is kind of a moot point really. I believe it was either Unearthed Arcana or Arcana Unearthed (both were interesting, but the "rules variant" one is the one I'm thinking of)that had a variant rule set for "gestalt" gaming. In this setup you basically are two classes at once. it had a very epic feel to it, but was somewhat clunky, especially when it came to multi-classing. I have used it and modified it through several games campaigns and player groups over the years, and my current setup is a free buy system where you buy levels and even feats or attributes with your experience and just take the best numeric values from any class you have. nothing stacks everything overlaps basically. It is incredibly fun, and i use a very simple set of three charts (one for hit die, saves and BAB) that lets players keep everything orderly and relatively simple. as you broaden out and gain levels in several different classes at different rates (very 2nd edition for you old school types) you gain more and more abilities that compliment each other in interesting ways. once you hit level 15 in 3 or more classes at once you are VERY epic. the numbers stay small and it requires a lot less work to make a lich or what have you still be a fun challenge. i think a system more like this keeps the game more about the "cool stuff" you can do and less about having a BAB of 50 bazillion. it has the added benefit of keeping players interested in their characters for a lot longer, and keeping the more streamlined game play of lower levels.

[Gorbacz]

You're trying to tell me that a level 20 Wizard who teleports across dimensions and can cast Wish isn't epic enough ?

[The 8th Dwarf]

Gorbacz wrote:

You're trying to tell me that a level 20 Wizard who teleports across dimensions and can cast Wish isn't epic enough ?

There are suggestions for above LVL 20 play in the core rule book.

They all seem good to me.

I think one is to use lvl 20 as a Class cap and once they hit 20 they have to pick a new class or Prestige class.

I dont have the book on me for the page number but it is worth looking for.

[Stereofm]

I wish for Epic to be banned from the multiverse.

Okay, I'd still buy the book out of the suscription, but I'd only scan the art.

[Pan]

I think you will be barking up that tree a long time. There just isnt a market big enough for it. I cant even remember the last time I leveled higher than 12 and I know i am not alone. Not saying they shouldn't just that I dont think the demand is there. I have been wrong before.

[Morain]

I'd also love to see some epic level rules and adventures.

In my opinion that is much more useful than just tons of adventure paths that start at level 1.

I say this because developing encounters and NPC's for those high levels is so time consuming it would be a godsend for any DM to be able to buy an adventure like that instead of making it himself.

I know, because I've done it.

[EL_Kabong]

Pan wrote:

I think you will be barking up that tree a long time. There just isnt a market big enough for it. I cant even remember the last time I leveled higher than 12 and I know i am not alone. Not saying they shouldn't just that I dont think the demand is there. I have been wrong before.

It's not that the market's not there, it's that the amount of content for the "standard" dnd levels of 1-20 is much more fleshed out. Along with wizards not really putting much effort into their ELH and following content (epic insights column). Also for those who were asking what exactly denoted "epic" levels, it's everything lvl's 21+ basically.

Also like Morain said, designing epic level content is more time consuming due to more abilities and stat blocks(however you can always simplify things), although it also depends on your design philosophy when designing said content. If publishers published more of it, then more people would play it.

I find it funny (though not surprising) that most of the people that weigh in to bash epic level dnd play either had a one time bad experience with it because they had little understanding of it, or are just speculating on it based on what they've looked at and heard other people say.

Also as a side note id like to advise anyone who intends on giving epic lvl play a shot to NOT start your characters off at epic levels, at least not the first time you do it because players have no investment in them if they automatically start off at lvl 21 or higher. Which consequently runs a much higher risk of being a shitty game since most players will get much less enjoyment out of something they spent a few hours making being leaps and bounds more powerful then what they might of been used to in the past if they're used to low teens play.

As for DM's who cry about things being more of a headache the higher you go, get more organized, being disorganized might not encumber your low lvl games much but being organized will make even the low level games more enjoyable.

[J. Christopher Harris]

EL_Kabong wrote:

I'd hope so, you can only release so many adventures for the 1-20 range

I sincerely hope you get what you want regarding epic play if that's your thing, but in several decades of the various incarnations of this game I have yet to see the well run dry on adventure from 1-20, and don't see it coming any time soon.

[Kthulhu]

My epic rules ideas:

Hard level cap at 36th level.
+ CON modifier in hit points (no hit dice past 20th).
+ INT modifier in skill points (no class skill points past 20th).
BAB, saving throw, and ability score increases stop at 20th.
Abilities that improve with level cease at 20th.
Spell progression (spells knows for spontaneous casters, spells per day for all spellcasters) ceases at 20th.
Beyond 20th, feats are replaced with Epic Feats.
An Epic feat is earned at every level beginning with level 21.
Caster level continues to advance to 36th.

I also think that there would need to be feats added that give spontaneous casters the ability to learn new spells, and for casters in general to increase the number of spells per day that can be cast. Likewise, non-casters could take feats to improve their relevant abilities beyond the slowdown/stoppage at 20th/36th level.

Epic spellcasting would be involved rituals with at least one Spellcraft check. Not something you would do in the midst of combat.

[GeraintElberion]

For El Kabong

Spoiler:

EL_Kabong wrote:

It's not that the market's not there, it's that the amount of content for the "standard" dnd levels of 1-20 is much more fleshed out. Along with wizards not really putting much effort into their ELH and following content (epic insights column).

It's been interesting to read James Jacobs comments about this over the years.

He has consistently stated that Adventure Paths, both in the Dungeon days and after, have sold less issues the higher level they have gone.
And yet, he stated that this trend is not as strong as it once was.

EL_Kabong wrote:

Also for those who were asking what exactly denoted "epic" levels, it's everything lvl's 21+ basically.

Nothing to debate here, folks. El Kabong has spoken.

EL_Kabong wrote:

I find it funny (though not surprising) that most of the people that weigh in to bash epic level dnd play either had a one time bad experience with it because they had little understanding of it, or are just speculating on it based on what they've looked at and heard other people say.

Ah, so if someone disagrees with you they don't have a valid alternative perspective, they're just doing it wrong?

EL_Kabong wrote:

As for DM's who cry about things being more of a headache the higher you go, get more organized, being disorganized might not encumber your low lvl games much but being organized will make even the low level games more enjoyable.

"If you don't like it you're bad at the game, stop your wrongbadfun!"

You seem to have come out swinging to eagerly defend epic play on a thread which has been quite balanced and not seen any real, strident criticism.
Hold your horses. We don't need to start taking sides and calling each other out, we can just have a sensible discussion.

I think it makes sense for publishing companies to produce high-level stuff, even if it is in the style of Necromancer's City of Brass (rather than a more tightly structured/scripted AP), because it is seen as daunting for GMs to design.
If epic/high level play is hard to design then that is where we most need the professionals to help us out.

[Dryder]

While I don't like epic-play, I know that others LOVE it.
I, too, heard, that Paizo is far from starting an Epic project, because it has to be done right.
Maybe a collection of ideas and wishes from you guys, who love Epic-play, might help to get things started...

[EL_Kabong]

GeraintElberion wrote:

For El Kabong

Ah, so if someone disagrees with you they don't have a valid alternative perspective, they're just doing it wrong?

Nope, other viewpoints are valid, however those viewpoints coming from inexperience(ex. a few bad sessions) generally lack credibility and therefor validity. I've seen plenty of people that just to conclusions regarding epic play and in that instance yes they're doing it wrong, however if they have taken the time to gain some experience on the subject and still harbor a dislike for it then they're doing it right.

Quote:

"If you don't like it you're bad at the game, stop your wrongbadfun!"

No

Quote:

You seem to have come out swinging to eagerly defend epic play on a thread which has been quite balanced and not seen any real, strident criticism.
Hold your horses. We don't need to start taking sides and calling each other out, we can just have a sensible discussion.

We can have a sensible discussion, but usually that involves not taking things out of context like you did with the "If you don't like it you're bad at the game, stop your wrongbadfun!" assumption about me telling dm's being more organized equates to a more enjoyable game environment across all levels of play, after a few have made statements about going past 10 or 12 being to much of a headache to bother with.

Also as a side note, I've noticed one major complaint about epic play being imbalanced as characters start to grow by leaps and bounds. That's where being a DM comes into play, because even in epic levels the players are only ever going to be as imbalanced, or breeze through as many things without a challenge as you allow them to. Obviously as a good DM the goal isn't to have every fight running the high possibility of a TPK, but that's not to say they can't be a challenge either.

[poilbrun]

I won't go into details of previous posts, but the reason I would love to have epic rules is simply to have rules for everything in the game. When you are level 20, you know there are individuals still stronger than you, be they a few other mortals, or immortals such as demon lords or gods. How can you stat them if you don't have rules for them?Many settings imply that mortals can become gods, but very few assume that PCs will want to, and I never understood that.

I know that a lot of people think that if you can stat'em, you can kill'em, but I see no inherent problem with that. Most settings include stories of conflicts between the gods or even powerful mortals and gods. Why wouldn't you ever to take part in those conflicts. I'm not saying that every campaign needs to turn into this, but if there is a good reason for your characters to do it, why not? Most adventure paths are self-contained, where your characters are driven to complete the following adventures until the big finale. Once that threat is over, there's nothing wrong with those characters retiring. But what about stories with no "end". I could imagine keeping a Kingmaker running after the last adventure (in our case, I think we will keep it going, but more along the lines of heirs taking over than increasing the power curve).

In my "perfect" system, Epic would be capped with the highest-level being(s) (Ao in the Forgotten Realms) at the cap and everybody else statted in between. For example, if the proposal of a level 36 cap was kept, I'd probably go with Greater Gods at levels 34-36, other Gods and major Demon and Infernal Lords at level 31-33, other Lords at level 28-30, their lieutenants and most Epic Characters the characters would encounter in the 21-27 range, and the vast majority of mortals would be in the normal non-epic range of 1-20

[Freesword]

Kthulhu wrote:

My epic rules ideas:

Hard level cap at 36th level.
+ CON modifier in hit points (no hit dice past 20th).
+ INT modifier in skill points (no class skill points past 20th).
BAB, saving throw, and ability score increases stop at 20th.
Abilities that improve with level cease at 20th.
Spell progression (spells knows for spontaneous casters, spells per day for all spellcasters) ceases at 20th.
Beyond 20th, feats are replaced with Epic Feats.
An Epic feat is earned at every level beginning with level 21.
Caster level continues to advance to 36th.

I also think that there would need to be feats added that give spontaneous casters the ability to learn new spells, and for casters in general to increase the number of spells per day that can be cast. Likewise, non-casters could take feats to improve their relevant abilities beyond the slowdown/stoppage at 20th/36th level.

Epic spellcasting would be involved rituals with at least one Spellcraft check. Not something you would do in the midst of combat.

I've started work on my own epic house rules and they follow a similar concept. The biggest difference is that I went with more of an E6(E20) model. After 20th you just get epic feats (which can gain you pretty much anything available to characters up to level 20) every so many XP, with BAB, Base Saves, skill ranks (most likely) and Hit Dice having hard caps. It doesn't address the ever growing stat block issue, but it does cap the numbers and keeps them on the random number generator (d20).

[Bruce Bogtrotter]

Epic level play is certainly missing. Maybe some of you do not want these options, I understand. I know that it is more difficult to play epic levels, and I know that 1st level modules are sooo fun, and I know that it is harder for the poor DM run these higher level modules and all of that...

If anything, some of us could use them. Heck, some of us feel that the stated level of the modules are rather overrated anyhow - probably 25% higher. A level 10 module probably could only challenge a party of 7th or 8th level anyhow. So epic level modules would really only be used against characters between 15-20th level.

Now I know that the almighty dollar comes into the equation. So if it doesn't make enough money for the publisher, then it is not going to happen, right?

I know that in todays business world profit must come before everything else, I understand that. I guess I am just left desiring a little more than the same old stuff packaged a different way for today.

And of course, let me put my legal disclaimer in: I am in no way disparaging the corporations owners, employees, publisher, products, logos, business models, fans, or acquaintances - I am just offering an opinion that has no value.

[Kerym Ammath]

My ruleset for advancement past 20th level are as follows.

1) All classes gain one feat per level past 20th. (At this point we are talking about essentially doubling experience for the next level, every level is going to be a big accomplishment, so you should get something a little extra for your troubles.)

2) Fighters gain a bonus feat every level in addition. (It is their primary class feature and everyone else essentially got an extra boost in this category why not him.)

3) BAB and Saving throw bonuses are based on the best of combination of 20 class levels for each category, there are no increases past 20th level for these categories. (If you multiclass you can essentially eventually if you play long enough get all good saves and a maxed out BAB. This allows you to continue using every monster in the Bestiary, no need to create ever more powerful critters. Surprise the GM does not need to take ever increasing amounts of time to prep.)

4) Hit Points, and Skill Points continue to be accumulated however skills are capped at 20 ranks. (Hit point in particular combined with feats is what makes this character different, or epic. They have that extra little edge, can take that much more of a beating, keep going when others can't, without causing an ever increasing swing in the math of the game, and without a magical item arms race.

5)Casters continue to gain spells per day as described in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook p.406-407.

6) Class Features/Abilities continue to add uses/day, or new groupings, or new talents, however class level is always capped at 20th for any hard mechanical bonuses. (Fighter for instance continues to add weapon groups but the bonus available will always max out at 4).

As to EPIC FEATS, or POWERZ. I don't see the need for them. There are so many feats available that even if you hit 60th level you would still be missing a ton that you could want, and some of the feat chains available are pretty damns powerful as it is. 9th level spells are pretty over the top, and with the elimination of the BAB and Saving Throw scaling to infinity there is no need for lame Epic Feats like Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

These rules allow me to continue my campaigns until my players get tired of their characters and want something new, because they want to play something new, not because the rule set broke down on the side of the road. So I think they need adventures for high levels, and a non scaling Epic rule set. This way an adventure for 15-20 levels will always be easily modified to handle a party of 30th level adventurers. They can even add recommendations for handling it in the adventure. No risk all gain.

[LazarX]

Kvantum wrote:

Actually, from what I recall in terms of what has been said on the boards, I think the rough idea is for Epic (perhaps capping out at level 36, the same as old school D&D) in 2012 and Psionics in 2013, assuming Paizo decides to do something different for psionics and not just adopt the Dreamscarred Press update to Pathfinder-ish style.

Paizo has decided on "something different", basically Psionics for Pathfinder is going to be done pretty much Vancian style. It's going to bear no resemblance at all to the old EPH material. or what Dreamscarred is putting out.

The real problem is I don't see Golarian as a world in which Epic play belongs. I think it's more like Eberron where the movers and shakers top out in the 15th level range.

[LazarX]

Kerym Ammath wrote:

This way an adventure for 15-20 levels will always be easily modified to handle a party of 30th level adventurers. They can even add recommendations for handling it in the adventure. No risk all gain.

A 15th level character isn't just 15 times more powerful than a first. With the growing access to feats, spells, and resources, power increases logarithmicly. Add 15 levels to a 15th level party and you've got a completely different ball game.

[Hobbun]

Kvantum wrote:

Actually, from what I recall in terms of what has been said on the boards, I think the rough idea is for Epic (perhaps capping out at level 36, the same as old school D&D) in 2012 and Psionics in 2013, assuming Paizo decides to do something different for psionics and not just adopt the Dreamscarred Press update to Pathfinder-ish style.

And this is exactly what I was told at GenCon from one of the lead designers, as well, when I asked him about Epic level content.

He will remain nameless, so no one can say “but ______ said 2012!!” He indicated we might see an epic level book in ’12. What he was pretty definitive about is ideas and plans for an epic level book is further along than for a psionics book. So don’t expect to see psionics before epic.

But either way, we are going to see epic eventually, from what it sounded like.

[Kerym Ammath]

LazarX wrote:

Kerym Ammath wrote:

This way an adventure for 15-20 levels will always be easily modified to handle a party of 30th level adventurers. They can even add recommendations for handling it in the adventure. No risk all gain.

A 15th level character isn't just 15 times more powerful than a first. With the growing access to feats, spells, and resources, power increases logarithmicly. Add 15 levels to a 15th level party and you've got a completely different ball game.

I realize that completely, however since I am referring to th eentirety of my post for the comparison the curve is nowhere near that of a 1st level vs. a 15th level character. The BAB, Saving Throws, and AC of a 15th level character and a 30th level character in my rule set is more akin to the difference of a 15th level character and a 20th level character. In my rule set the big difference is the 30th level character has more resources, more tricks, maybe even a couple extra bonuses from feats, more hit points, but the runaway train is stopped in the station. There is not a 10 point difference in AC, BAB, and a 5 point difference in saving throws.

[Sean K Reynolds]

As someone who's running a high-level campaign, and whose session last night had characters routinely using dimension door and teleport to bypass getting wet, routinely dealing 100 or more damage per round in melee combat, multiple crits per round, casually casting a normal spell and a quickened spell each round for multiple rounds, with ACs in the 30s, Stealth check results in the 40s, and spells that give them an additional +8 to hit and damage, I wonder...

... how much more superhero do you need to get?

[Hobbun]

Oh shoot, Sean is defending non-epic. Come on, make an appearance James!

[EL_Kabong]

poilbrun wrote:

I won't go into details of previous posts, but the reason I would love to have epic rules is simply to have rules for everything in the game. When you are level 20, you know there are individuals still stronger than you, be they a few other mortals, or immortals such as demon lords or gods. How can you stat them if you don't have rules for them?Many settings imply that mortals can become gods, but very few assume that PCs will want to, and I never understood that.

Check out the "Immortals Handbook" set of books, right now their are only two, because the man writing them is doing it alone. However the two out right now are Immortals Handbook - Ascension, and Beastiary. Ascension marrys together the ELH and Deities and Demigods and gives a much more indepth look at whats involved with ascending to godhood, (and a few different examples on how to handle it, along with a seperate system for gaining divine rank or "god levels" ) along with a plethora of feats and a detailed look at many many many different portfolios and how to use/apply them along their positives and inherent negatives (no power is without sacrifice).

Obviously the beastiary is full of creatures, some very good examples of epic end stuff monster wise, along with some lower HD non epic versions of quite a few non epic versions of them as well if you want to incorporate a few into a lower end game easier.

The other big problem concerning epic play is having foes that will challenge a party of high level adventurers without being an auto TPK, I know there are a few other pieces of epic source out there, but thus far IH does it alot better then wizards, along with being alot more balanced right out of the box.

[bugleyman]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

As someone who's running a high-level campaign, and whose session last night had characters routinely using dimension door and teleport to bypass getting wet, routinely dealing 100 or more damage per round in melee combat, multiple crits per round, casually casting a normal spell and a quickened spell each round for multiple rounds, with ACs in the 30s, Stealth check results in the 40s, and spells that give them an additional +8 to hit and damage, I wonder...

... how much more superhero do you need to get?

Dude, this one goes to eleven. It's one louder, isn't it?

[see]

I hate the use of the word "epic" to mean past-20. "Epic" isn't a power level, it's a story type.

[EL_Kabong]

see wrote:

I hate the use of the word "epic" to mean past-20. "Epic" isn't a power level, it's a story type.

That's one context, however the context I was referring to when I started this thread was post 21 gameplay.

[The Black Bard]

Well, define "post 21 gameplay" in terms that suitably separate it from "pre 21 gameplay".

For me, I agree with Epic meaning accomplishments, which is relative to whatever campaign setting or world you are running. When the average human has 3-5 "concious" hp and a grand total of 15hp before "dead on impact", anything in the "15 points of damage, minimum" range is epic, because its something an average person simply can't do. The average person can not hit DC 30, AC 25 (barring the sillyness of the Nat20), nor make a DC 25 save (again, barring Nat20). The average person can not take 15 points of damage and live, nor can he deal it with a weapon. Any character who can do those things is approaching epic.

Once a character has experienced things that an average person can't even relate to, then they are even closer to epic. When the dragon that attacks isn't the first you've seen, when the shambling undead become an annoyance, when the great twisting plant monster makes you go "I was looking for a challenge", then your getting close. And after a certain point, you look back and go, "huh, I guess that was an epic adventure". And then it was.

I've DMed 3.5 epic level play several times, with several groups. Overall, the ELH is a huge mass of great ideas, jumbled together like a hastily repackaged line of Christmas lights. But like many of the lights in a hastily repackaged line, a lot of whats in the book is just broken and does not work when you try to plug it in. Epic spells were an awesome concept, but had massive issues on both sides of the utility spectrum, from their abysmally long creation times to their effectively unlimited power levels (like the trick of 1rst Epic Spell: Epic Spellcraft boost. 2nd Epic Spell: OMGEFFECT that I couldn't do without epic spellcraft boost.)

Many gamers are casual, they don't read the books on the other 6 days of the week besides gamenight, they don't browse these forums on a daily basis. They don't either want or have the time to spend on learning literally a textbook's worth of material, and are content to just play their character and enjoy it. In my group, 3 of the 4 players are this way. I might be inclined to say its a girl vrs guy thing, but one of those 3 is a guy, so maybe not. All of us have children and jobs, I just happen to make my gaming knowledge a priority. Then again, I am the DM, so I kind of have to.

Epic, as in post 20 rules, is just adding another peak to the mountain of material for a player to deal with. I'm of the mind that Paizo will get to it when they have covered the "foothills" of things like Psionics, Modern, etc, before they move on to such a "mountaintop". And thats fine with me, they'll do it when they are ready, rather than when corporate demands it, and they'll do it in Paizo style, which is the main reason I will likely buy it, when that time comes.

[TriOmegaZero]

So epic doesn't start at 11th?

[see]

EL_Kabong wrote:

see wrote:

I hate the use of the word "epic" to mean past-20. "Epic" isn't a power level, it's a story type.

That's one context, however the context I was referring to when I started this thread was post 21 gameplay.

Yes, you said that in your first post. Then I said I hate use of the word "epic" to mean that. So now we've both repeated ourselves.

[Hobbun]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

So epic doesn't start at 11th?

No way. You don't even get 7th level spells. Or worse, even 6th for Sorcerors.

[Justin Franklin]

I actually think of Epic as traveling the planes, becoming demigods, fighting demon lords, etc.

[EL_Kabong]

The Black Bard wrote:

Well, define "post 21 gameplay" in terms that suitably separate it from "pre 21 gameplay".

For me, I agree with Epic meaning accomplishments, which is relative to whatever campaign setting or world you are running. When the average human has 3-5 "concious" hp and a grand total of 15hp before "dead on impact", anything in the "15 points of damage, minimum" range is epic, because its something an average person simply can't do. The average person can not hit DC 30, AC 25 (barring the sillyness of the Nat20), nor make a DC 25 save (again, barring Nat20). The average person can not take 15 points of damage and live, nor can he deal it with a weapon. Any character who can do those things is approaching epic.

Once a character has experienced things that an average person can't even relate to, then they are even closer to epic. When the dragon that attacks isn't the first you've seen, when the shambling undead become an annoyance, when the great twisting plant monster makes you go "I was looking for a challenge", then your getting close. And after a certain point, you look back and go, "huh, I guess that was an epic adventure". And then it was.

Agreed

Quote:

I've DMed 3.5 epic level play several times, with several groups. Overall, the ELH is a huge mass of great ideas, jumbled together like a hastily repackaged line of Christmas lights. But like many of the lights in a hastily repackaged line, a lot of whats in the book is just broken and does not work when you try to plug it in. Epic spells were an awesome concept, but had massive issues on both sides of the utility spectrum, from their abysmally long creation times to their effectively unlimited power levels (like the trick of 1rst Epic Spell: Epic Spellcraft boost. 2nd Epic Spell: OMGEFFECT that I couldn't do without epic spellcraft boost.)

Very true, and this is where epic play usually becomes tricky, because it requires alot more dm oversight from the ground up, Wotc had a horrible execution with their release of the ELH though like every DnD book all of the rules contained within are subject to the whims of the dm.

There is plenty of stuff pre 21 that's over the top broken class and feat wise from alot of the wizards core and supplements, but that's only at first glance. As an experienced dm you should know better then anyone that tailoring encounters to challenge or not challenge the party can balance out alot of things that seem broken at first glance.

Quote:

Many gamers are casual, they don't read the books on the other 6 days of the week besides gamenight, they don't browse these forums on a daily basis. They don't either want or have the time to spend on learning literally a textbook's worth of material, and are content to just play their character and enjoy it. In my group, 3 of the 4 players are this way. I might be inclined to say its a girl vrs guy thing, but one of those 3 is a guy, so maybe not. All of us have children and jobs, I just happen to make my gaming knowledge a priority. Then again, I am the DM, so I kind of have to.

Indeed, although the breadth of knowledge they would need to absorb can be cut down pretty easy by narrowing the focus of their reading. Going through the ELH cover to cover isn't necessary to making an effective high level character (but obviously helps).

Quote:

Epic, as in post 20 rules, is just adding another peak to the mountain of material for a player to deal with. I'm of the mind that Paizo will get to it when they have covered the "foothills" of things like Psionics, Modern, etc, before they move on to such a "mountaintop". And thats fine with me, they'll do it when they are ready, rather than when corporate demands it, and they'll do it in Paizo style, which is the main reason I will likely buy it, when that time comes.

Indeed, I have much faith that when paizo does get around to releasing their own epic material books for pathfinder that they'll be much higher caliber then the crap wotc hastily plopped out with the elh. Till then i'll stick with some of the quality 3rd party stuff i've found that addresses it.

[EL_Kabong]

Justin Franklin wrote:

I actually think of Epic as traveling the planes, becoming demigods, fighting demon lords, etc.

I'd say that is definitely a good way to define epicness, but what if the heroes want something more? Does that just get delegated to "retiring" characters so the dm can start a new adventure instead of progressing the current one past his comfort zone? (had a few dm's in the past specifically like this)

[Zmar]

And what is this "more" you are speaking about? This would be a matter of dicussion of the group with the DM about the goals of the compaign and the DM would have to somehow provide the way toward these goals. I, as a DM, am kind of running out of superepic ideas for that.

Rules-wise I'd be all for halting the progression on lvl 20 and then just allowing single 'epic' class, that would have several talent trees with wondrous abilities. Dealing with 'wondrous' more in the way of fighting demon lords and travelling dimensions than getting another +8 AC, if you get what I mean. Aside from that developing 'epic' levels for every basic class in the game would be abysmal in sheer volume of material.

[Rite Publishing]

As a suggestion of something in the Right direction is our 16th - 20th level mini-setting/adventure on the plane of dreams Coliseum Morpheuon (PFRPG) print pdf bundle if you preorder the print copy you get the PDF right now. This was part of our patronage project and is being distributed through our print partner Cubicle Seven.

[Jared Ouimette]

I believe epic play starts at 1st level. The vast majority of NPCs are 1st level commoners, who can be one-shotted by a large rat. You, however, can cast spells and swing swords that most commoners can't.

Killing demons and angels strikes me as a little ludicrous: why give them stats, people might complain about them as being too high or low level in their opinion? And ghosts too. Doesn't that strike people as a little over-the-top? Killing things that are already dead? Epic. And wouldn't fighting all these level 3+ things make those level one encounters redundant? Won't that take away your sense of accomplishment, having slain the mighty dire rat of Xol-Thar, conqueror of nations?

You get to beat bandits, which is waaaay more than any npc can do. And move large rocks (not boulders, though. Waaay too over the top for me.) And swim through shallow rivers without drowning like most people. All of these things are rather epic in comparison to commoners, so I don't see the need for this 21+ silliness.

[memorax]

EL_Kabong wrote:

Indeed, I have much faith that when paizo does get around to releasing their own epic material books for pathfinder that they'll be much higher caliber then the crap wotc hastily plopped out with the elh. Till then i'll stick with some of the quality 3rd party stuff i've found that addresses it.

Would you mind listing the third party supplemants. I also do not like the ELH and would like to see what other rpg companies have done with epic rules.

[The smitter]

ok 3rd time I tried to right this, short version,

No epic is not as impotent as new monster books or Aps over all, it dose however fill a Niche, one that lest the game keep going after you got the awesome ability you have been working towards for 20 level. So you are right if you crunch the numbers Epic may not look that impotent, But I don't play because of the Numbers, I just don't want to have to stop after I have put that much time in to a character or a game Just because they are 20th level.

and yes I can house rule it if I want to, And I do, But I could use some help by people who right this stuff in the first place, I have don't have as much time or as mush experience as Paizo dose, No it is not about having a +12 to attack and Damage, It is about carriering the game a little bit beyond the "last level" with a more then what is in my head and what got put in print 3 editions ago.

Just my thoughts,

[The smitter]

The smitter wrote:

ok 3rd time I tried to right this, short version,

No epic is not as impotent as new monster books or Aps over all, it dose however fill a Niche, one that lest the game keep going after you got the awesome ability you have been working towards for 20 level. So you are right if you crunch the numbers Epic may not look that impotent, But I don't play because of the Numbers, I just don't want to have to stop after I have put that much time in to a character or a game Just because they are 20th level.

and yes I can house rule it if I want to, And I do, But I could use some help by people who right this stuff in the first place, I have don't have as much time or as mush experience as Paizo dose, No it is not about having a +12 to attack and Damage, It is about carriering the game a little bit beyond the "last level" with a more then what is in my head and what got put in print 3 editions ago.

Just my thoughts,

That is one articulated thought there smitter, way to win them over,

I am not edieding

[James Jacobs]

I'm a big fan of epic adventures: AKA adventures where the PCs do things like take on demigods or demon lords, save worlds, and wield powerful magic that lets them do things like command armies of dragons, create demiplanes, or turn an army of orcs into an army of frogs.

SOME day I hope we'll have some sort of rules that cover this type of play, but that day will not be occurring this year or next year at the minimum.

[Sharoth]

James Jacobs wrote:

I'm a big fan of epic adventures: AKA adventures where the PCs do things like take on demigods or demon lords, save worlds, and wield powerful magic that lets them do things like command armies of dragons, create demiplanes, or turn an army of orcs into an army of frogs.

SOME day I hope we'll have some sort of rules that cover this type of play, but that day will not be occurring this year or next year at the minimum.

Why not? Who needs sleep or sanity? ~grins~ Oh well. If you insist upon doing it right and keeping both a life and some of your sanity, then I guess I can wait.