Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The rules don't specifically say otherwise, but I suspect the intent is that all attacks in a flurry are supposed to be treated as one-handed weapon attacks. Your DM might see it otherwise, of course.
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By "strict RAW" he may be entitled to the +50%, but I don't think it should be allowed and I wouldn't if I were DM.
Here's a question.. if you flurry can you use the additional attacks gained using your "main-hand" weapon?
Usually when you TWF you can't use the same weapon twice. It has some restrictions. I see where it says "any combination of strikes or weapon attacks" but would that mean you can use a main handed attack limb/weapon again to fill these new attacks?
In this case flurrying exclusively with a 2h weapon?
Yes you may flurry with a two handed weapon alone. Or with "one" unarmed strike.
Which means you can flurry while grappled.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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why not? a monk compared to fighter will still not deal out as much damage
Let me put it another way, my main (11th level) PFS character is a "Monk" dealing unarmed damage. I'd love to have your interpretation of how brass knuckles enhances over the RAW, but I have to work with RAW. If you want to play it working together, you need your DM to say so.
Yes you may flurry with a two handed weapon alone
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Rules are separate. There is no part of the monk Flurry of Blows that rules out the option of attacking with a two-handed weapon, and even uses it as an example. Power Attack also has very well-defined rules regarding when to apply the appropriate bonuses. In short...
Yes, you get the extra 50% while wielding a temple sword 2-handed.
Personally? I'm okay with this. It is in NO way broken, and the extra damage output is going to be pretty minimal at best (an extra, what, 18 damage at level 20?). IF every attack were to hit (stop laughing, just roll with me for a sec), we'd be looking at a pretty significant damage boost over the long haul. But, with full BAB while flurrying, you actually take a bigger Power Attack penalty than you would without full BAB! Yes, you are still more accurate overall with full BAB, but the penalty to all of your attacks, especially with the infamous "Flurry of Misses" standard, is going to make things rough unless you can get some major "to-hit" buffs.
Flurry works as TWF. That means flurry follows the TWF rules unless there is an exception stated. When TWF'ing the weapons are treated as being wielded in one hand. If you could get 2-handed damage bonuses from power attack bonus with a temple sword then you could do it with a quarterstaff also since both can be wielded in two hands as part of a normal attack.
In short you can only flurry with a temple sword when treating it as a one-handed weapon.
Flurry works as TWF. That means flurry follows the TWF rules unless there is an exception stated. When TWF'ing the weapons are treated as being wielded in one hand. If you could get 2-handed damage bonuses from power attack bonus with a temple sword then you could do it with a quarterstaff also since both can be wielded in two hands as part of a normal attack.
In short you can only flurry with a temple sword when treating it as a one-handed weapon.
Actually this is not what flurry of blows says.
It says you may flurry with a two handed weapon but while doing so you only get your strength modifier bonus added to damage instead of 1.5 strength modifier bonus as you normally would for using a two handed weapon. It specifically does not state that the weapon is treated as being used one handed.
Sorry this is a lot of text folks, but I think I may have cracked it.
Actually this is not what flurry of blows says.
It says you may flurry with a two handed weapon
Actually that isn't what Flurry of Blows says either. It doesn't say "two handed weapon" anywhere there. It has a more ambiguous term, "a weapon wielded in both hands".
We're in a situation where the rules can be read in alternate ways depending on how you interpret the non-standard term "a weapon wielded in both hands".
Is it referring to ALL two-handed weapons, or is it supposed to reference the specific instance of the ONLY two-handed weapon listed in the FoB description: the quarterstaff; which is a double weapon and functions like one is fighting with two weapons?
While I'm open to allowing "Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed" (1.5 Str bonus) with FoB, I don't think its what is meant in the FoB rules. Though you can argue for the former based on what you think is meant by "a weapon wielded in both hands".
This is my interpretation:
1. When using Flurry of Blows a monk
"may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat".
Conclusion (supported by designer statements): Flurry of Blows is governed as a type of Two-Weapon Fighting. You don't fight with a two-handed weapon in each hand unless you are larger than medium sized.
Also, let's not forget AT ALL TIMES that FoB operates under the -2 attack penalty for TWF with light weapons in both hands. If it ain't TWF then the -2 shouldn't be there. A two-handed weapon that does not have the double property is not used according to TWF, so it shouldn't be under FoB. You should be using such a weapon with your raw BAB (but see possible exception below).
2. Quarterstaff is the only two-handed weapon listed above. It is also a double weapon, meaning that one end is wielded in the off-hand, incurring strength bonus penalties.
3. The "full Strength bonus" phrase occurs in a sentence discussing off-hand weapons, too.
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
Interpretation: I think the spirit of this sentence is to say that if you hold a kama in both hands, nunchaku in both, or use a quarterstaff, then you enjoy an exemption to the usual penalty for two-weapon fighting and get a full (100%) strength bonus.
The following points may be a deal-breaker:
4. It is the second weapon in the off-hand that generates the extra attack in the two-weapon fighting mechanic.
"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."
Flurry of Blows, with Pathfinder, is now modelled after TWF, which means a weapon in each hand, whether that's empty hands or empty hand + monk weapon.
Recall that the ability opens with "may make one additional attack ... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". This suggests to me 'may make one additional attack as if having a weapon in each hand', which doesn't rule out the double weapon quarterstaff case.
5. Folks wanting more power advantage out of the ability can choose to read the following as license for using ALL FoB attacks with the same weapon:
"may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon".
Since an unarmed strike can take the form of many different body parts or blows I can accept this means not attacking with the same foot with every attack, but likely alternating fist, foot, elbow, etc.
But, following Two-weapon Fighting rules, is it legit to have a single monk weapon take all your FoB attacks if you are only wielding one?
Theoretically, you could argue that this is a "combination" of one, but that's kinda cheesy and stretches the definition of combination as involving more than one thing.
But under TWF, extra attacks come from an additional weapon, so more than one weapon needs to be in play. Likewise, with FoB.
Example:
An 11th level monk wielding a kama in one hand or double-handed could make 5 flurry attacks.
I actually look at it by identifying which hand the kama is in.
a. If its in my primary hand then I get 3 attacks with it max and two extra unarmed attacks for the 'off-hand' unarmed strike which could be kick, headbutt, whatever.
b. If its in my off-hand then I get 2 attacks with it max and the rest of my attacks are unarmed strikes.
c. I could also choose to strike with the kama once and attack 4 times unarmed under the "any combination" feature.
Possible exception
Here is how I would say wielding an 11th level monk wielding a temple sword two-handed could MAYBE work within the FoB rules:
a. You would count the temple sword as a single "hand" under TWF.
b. The "other" hand would be represented by unarmed strikes such as kicks.
c. You resolve temple sword attacks with strength bonus x1.5 and the unarmed attacks with strength bonus x1.
d. You couldn't attack 5 times with the temple sword as that's not two-weapon fighting, that's single weapon fighting and you have to use your regular BAB for that. Enjoy. FoB operates under TWF.
e. You must pick which weapon is the 'primary hand' and the 'off hand' and resolve your attacks accordingly.
At most you could pull off 3 Str x1.5 attacks with the temple sword at +9/+4/-1 BAB. The other two attacks at +9/+4 have to be unarmed strikes.
This could work because for monks and FoB any part of the body used as a weapon can be an 'off hand'. So even a one-handed monk should be able to flurry.
Key thing: All Flurry of Blows attacks receive the -2 penalty from the two-weapon fighting rules, therefore at least two weapons should be at play. Unarmed strikes can be any of those weapons more than once.
That's my view. Thoughts?
There are no problems using a two-handed weapons in either TWF or flurries. Armor Spikes specifically is an off-hand weapons that do not use an actual hand. Just the same, it is written fairly directly that the monk can use any bodypart for his attacks.
The rules concerning spiked armor has been discussed a lot, and errataed in 3.5, so I believe it is fairly solid (and as someone argued recently: not that powerful).
Power Attack is not determined by strength bonus, but you might reasonably rule that it is, if it fits your perspective. I would consider it unnecessary, as the monk isn't going to be breaking the game any time soon.
Concerning wheter a monk needs more to use than one weapon, I think RAW allows them to be used with one weapon. But personally I would be ready to change that part, so he would have to do the extra attacks with another hand/limb/weapon.
why not? a monk compared to fighter will still not deal out as much damage although he is getting closer & at higher levels will be sacrificing the higher unarmed damage
also have you ever watched a real martial artist use a weapon in a FOB way - they have [a lot] of power in those strikes
Personally, I would much rather have monks getting 1.5x Str and -1/+3 Power Attack bonuses with unarmed strikes rather than encouraging them to use two-handed weapons (or brass knuckles, for that matter).
Key thing: All Flurry of Blows attacks receive the -2 penalty from the two-weapon fighting rules, therefore at least two weapons should be at play. Unarmed strikes can be any of those weapons more than once.
I agree that it probably should work the way you've outlined, however, the RAW for Flurry (essentially TWF) is that the weapons can be used in quite literally "any" combination. Unfortunately, all Temple Sword and zero unarmed strikes is one such combination.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
I further agree that you are probably correct that the designers meant "two" weapons also known as a weapon wielded in EACH hand. But, because of the muddled language Monks can use 2h Monk weapons to flurry at the moment.
"Full Strength Bonus" clause is also sort of wonky. I am in agreement that the "full bonus" for using a Temple Sword as a 2h weapon is x1.5. I think that this was intended to give "off-handed" attacks of the Monk a x1.0 bonus (like the Double Slice feat), but this is the result.
I agree that it probably should work the way you've outlined, however, the RAW for Flurry (essentially TWF) is that the weapons can be used in quite literally "any" combination. Unfortunately, all Temple Sword and zero unarmed strikes is one such combination.
Yeah. Depends whether you want to focus on the "any combination" part of that sentence and downplay that its anchored on either side by the statement that the "extra attack" operates "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". Once I see that then it doesn't make sense to allow less than two weapons at play (with the unarmed strike understood to be infinitely substitutable as a weapon).
Put another way, the extra attack can be any combo, but your primary attack is distinct from it. Nor does it say that your primary attack (which normally operates with a single weapon) can be substituted (it also doesn't say can't). Its a power exploit, but monk players in general feel underpowered and the reasons for favouring the liberal interpretation are understandable. I'm going to run my monk the more restrictive way and see whether it really hampers me.
Also, if the liberal-'any combination'-interpretation rules then all references to two-weapon fighting feats within Flurry of Blows can be deleted without any consequence because the proponents of that view argue that they have no mechanical consequence whatsoever. So were the designers being unnecessarily verbose, or was there a clear intention behind referencing two-weapon fighting feats 3 times in the flurry rules?
Paizo isn't in the habit of illustrative verbosity, so I think those references to TWF are significant.
a weapon wielded in both hands.I further agree that you are probably correct that the designers meant "two" weapons also known as a weapon wielded in EACH hand.
Sorta. I think they wrote that "wielded in both hands" phrase to cover the specific case of the quarterstaff which, in the Core rules, was the only monk weapon that was two-handed, but since it had the 'double' property it functioned like TWF and so fit within the TWF logic of Flurry. Actually, if you take my Flurry=TWF argument (which Jason Bulmahn himself has stated), then they did a fairly elegant job of making flurry work within the broader rules mechanics. Of course, most players seem to just want more and better attacks ;)
Reductio ad absurdium: I declare a flurry of blows where I perform five headbutts, or five strikes with my right fist. If that sounds fine then go ahead and have five BK attacks with only one set of BK's, or the same with one temple sword. Its all theoretically possible in the Real World as well as in P.P.P (Pathfinder Phantasy Physics) where full-plate wearing PCs can swim in rough waters if they pass a swim check.
Its nice to figure out how the rules were intended to play, thus forums like this, but either way as we've discussed this issue, I don't think its going to break monk mechanics to have this.
But, before you all get too excited with two-hander monks, note that the temple sword is the only monk weapon which could do this. All the others (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) only get x1.0 Str bonus because they are Light Weapons or, in the quarterstaff case, the Flurry rules say you get x1.0 Str bonus. Light weapons don't qualify for the two-hand x1.5 Str bonus benefit. Only One-Handed Weapons do, a temple sword is one.
But, before you all get too excited with two-hander monks, note that the temple sword is the only monk weapon which could do this. All the others (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) only get x1.0 Str bonus because they are Light Weapons or, in the quarterstaff case, the Flurry rules say you get x1.0 Str bonus. Light weapons don't qualify for the two-hand x1.5 Str bonus benefit. Only One-Handed Weapons do, a temple sword is one.
It it not ENTIRELY accurate...
Any of the monk weapons (apart from the quarterstaff or temple sword) could be used on size larger than appropriate. That way they are bumped to one-handed weapons and can be wielded in two hands for the x1.5 str bonus.
Not a very strong choice, the monk doesn't need the penalty to hit, but possible none the less..
Bump. Yay for thread necromancy.
So this:
This is interesting! You know you could use a large sized temple sword at -2 to hit and basically get a monk greatsword for -2 to hit.... hmmmm.....
works?
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Bump. Yay for thread necromancy.
So this:
This is interesting! You know you could use a large sized temple sword at -2 to hit and basically get a monk greatsword for -2 to hit.... hmmmm.....works?
Yup. Greatsword Flurry ftw. Don't forget to Power Attack for an extra +3 damage per penalty! (also, don't forget that a Monk's BAB while Flurrying is equal to his level, and you receive Power Attack Penalties and Bonuses faster while Flurrying)