Temple Sword + Power Attack


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 68 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

10 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hello,
Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt


The rules don't specifically say otherwise, but I suspect the intent is that all attacks in a flurry are supposed to be treated as one-handed weapon attacks. Your DM might see it otherwise, of course.

Liberty's Edge

I'd go with hogarth on this one. I don't want anyone getting +50% from power attack with an 8-attack flurry. That's just scary. (realistically only another 6 damage per hit @lvl20, assuming you use the monk's flurry BAB for power attack, but still quite noticable).
Oddly I think a monk, built properly, would probably make a better "Free-Hand Fighter" than a fighter. Assuming you want to use a monk weapon, or your DM is willing to let you feat for more monk weapon options.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Barber wrote:
If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage

Why is this? I've read and re-read page 141 of the Core Book, and under Light, One-Hand, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons it reads "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon." The only thing I can find to indicate that you don't apply 150% is under the Monk's FoB listing, where it says, "...applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks...whether with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands." I take it that line is meant to be interpreted as "you get your full strength with an off hand attack, so you *only* get 100% strength with a two-handed weapon"? If that's the case, why didn't they use a number? I.E. "100% of your strength is applied to your damage, whether off-hand or two-handed."

Because, frankly, I think StabbittyDoom is right: a traditional monk will wind up being more effective than a weapon monk. Why would an extra 6 damage per hit at 20th level sway this toward such a strict interpretation? Especially when you consider that his unarmed strike at 20th level is 2d10. The temple sword at 20th level is still 1d8. Even with 150% Strength damage, you're pretty severely below the curve of a 2d10+100% monk. Weapons in the hands of a monk are just a flavor thing, I think.

Liberty's Edge

Drogon wrote:
Because, frankly, I think StabbittyDoom is right: a traditional monk will wind up being more effective than a weapon monk.

SD didn't say that, at least not the way I'm reading his post. He said:

StabbityDoom wrote:
Oddly I think a monk, built properly, would probably make a better "Free-Hand Fighter" than a fighter.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Hmm. I saw it as him saying, "Don't give a monk a weapon. He's not a fighter; he's better with fists."

I see your point though: he's referring to the APG option. Ah, well, my question still stands.

Liberty's Edge

@Drogon: He was referring to the clause in the Flurry of Blows ability that says that all attacks in the flurry are at 1x strength, even if two-handed. And yes, I was referring to the APG archetype, not an unarmed monk (which would still be better than an armed monk in some cases).


Drogon wrote:
Barber wrote:
If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage

Why is this? I've read and re-read page 141 of the Core Book, and under Light, One-Hand, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons it reads "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon." The only thing I can find to indicate that you don't apply 150% is under the Monk's FoB listing, where it says, "...applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks...whether with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands." I take it that line is meant to be interpreted as "you get your full strength with an off hand attack, so you *only* get 100% strength with a two-handed weapon"? If that's the case, why didn't they use a number? I.E. "100% of your strength is applied to your damage, whether off-hand or two-handed."

Because, frankly, I think StabbittyDoom is right: a traditional monk will wind up being more effective than a weapon monk. Why would an extra 6 damage per hit at 20th level sway this toward such a strict interpretation? Especially when you consider that his unarmed strike at 20th level is 2d10. The temple sword at 20th level is still 1d8. Even with 150% Strength damage, you're pretty severely below the curve of a 2d10+100% monk. Weapons in the hands of a monk are just a flavor thing, I think.

+5 weapon is alot cheaper than +5 amulet of mighty fists

so for overcomming DR the sword is a nice option to have
also if your fighting a creature that has a nasty touch effect that if its struck with a natural/unarmed apply effect X , a sword is also very handy to have to avoid it.

another option is to have amulet of mighty fists holy flamming, anf a +5 temple sword

use Fists for your 2 highest BAB attacks and then the sword for the -10 and or -5 attacks using the +5 to attack bonus to improve your hit ratio

also the temple sword can be made keen 18-20 and for a ghost monk thats money becuase you need crits to activate the ki or Hp drain


Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Two-handed weapon is different to two weapons you realise.


Tanis wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Two-handed weapon is different to two weapons you realise.

Flurry is a special rule for monks

each attacks only does + x1.0 STR mod

soon as you try to do anything Flurry doesn't specifically say you can do then its no longer a flurry and you loose all the benefits of flurry.


Phasics wrote:
Tanis wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Two-handed weapon is different to two weapons you realise.

Flurry is a special rule for monks

each attacks only does + x1.0 STR mod

soon as you try to do anything Flurry doesn't specifically say you can do then its no longer a flurry and you loose all the benefits of flurry.

The rules seem a bit vague to me, the rule about applying 1*STR mod to damage has a strange wording, and certainly "as if using the X-Two-Weapon Fighting feat" is confusing too because I know you can flurry using a single weapon.

I have marked the question for the FAQ.


IkeDoe wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Tanis wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Two-handed weapon is different to two weapons you realise.

Flurry is a special rule for monks

each attacks only does + x1.0 STR mod

soon as you try to do anything Flurry doesn't specifically say you can do then its no longer a flurry and you loose all the benefits of flurry.

The rules seem a bit vague to me, the rule about applying 1*STR mod to damage has a strange wording, and certainly "as if using the X-Two-Weapon Fighting feat" is confusing too because I know you can flurry using a single weapon.

I have marked the question for the FAQ.

what seems more reasonable ?

8 attacks at 1.5x STR mod with power attack or 8 at 1.0x STR ?

RAI I'm going with 1.0x


Meh, I noticed this as a quirky loophole, & by RAW don't see why it wouldn't work.

It doesn't seem important enough for a FAQ or to bother trying to exploit in my opinion though. I would just use the sword one handed in society play for simplicity and check with your GM in a home game if you really want to try to squeeze out that extra bit of damage.

Just my two cents


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

You mean you can't Flurry with a Quarterstaff?


Cartigan wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

You mean you can't Flurry with a Quarterstaff?

This line:

"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
should over-ride the more general
"as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat"
and allow flurrying with a weapon in two hands I believe. Aside from power attack (and furious focus?) its mostly cosmetic.


Power Attack has nothing to do with Strength bonuses.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Apart from the quarterstaff. If the temple sword is a one-handed weapon (I haven't seen the stats), then it can be wielded with two hands. Apparently the temple sword can be used in a flurry (I haven't seen the stats), so there seems to be no problem here.

Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Monks are a special case:

PSRD wrote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.


kelvingreen wrote:


Cartigan wrote:
Power Attack has nothing to do with Strength bonuses.
PSRD wrote:
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
That seems to suggest that Power Attack does have something to do with strength bonuses.

Except it doesn't. The bonus from Power Attack is wholly unrelated to Strength bonuses and the only time Strength bonus is mentioned is when defining what kind of natural attacks get +50% bonus when using Power Attack.


Cartigan wrote:
Except it doesn't. The bonus from Power Attack is wholly unrelated to Strength bonuses and the only time Strength bonus is mentioned is when defining what kind of natural attacks get +50% bonus when using Power Attack.

Well, it's a bad sentence that needs better punctuation, as it could be read either way (especially lacking the context from the combat chapter). But generally, I agree, so you'll note I've retracted that bit of my response.


Tanis wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Two-handed weapon is different to two weapons you realise.

When attacking with Flurry of Blows you MUST attack as if attacking with TWO SEPERATE WEAPONS, as per the benefit provided by the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat.

You can NOT attack with a Two-Handed Weapon in a flurry of blows. You CAN use a "Double" Weapon, however a Double weapon is NOT a Two-Handed Weapon -- it is treated as two seperate weapons, with the second end being a "Light Weapon". (As per "Double" defined on Page 144).

A temple sword is NOT a Double weapon, therefore wielding it two-handed is no different than weilding a longsword two-handed.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:

A temple sword is NOT a Double weapon, therefore wielding it two-handed is no different than weilding a longsword two-handed.

Which provides a difference when Power Attacking.


Cartigan wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:

A temple sword is NOT a Double weapon, therefore wielding it two-handed is no different than weilding a longsword two-handed.

Which provides a difference when Power Attacking.

Correct.

Since a temple sword is not a Double weapon, you can weild it two-handed, however you can not Flurry with it when weilded two-handed, but you do gain the +50% damage bonus for attacking with a two-handed weapon.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cartigan wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

You mean you can't Flurry with a Quarterstaff?

You CAN flurry with a quarterstaff if you are using it as a DOUBLE weapon, which now means you are weilding 1 end as a one-handed melee weapon, and the second end as a light, one-handed melee weapon.

Alternatively, you can weild it as a two-handed weapon and do the extra damage, however you are no longer weilding it as two seperate weapons and can not flurry with it.


kelvingreen wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.
Apart from the quarterstaff. If the temple sword is a one-handed weapon (I haven't seen the stats), then it can be wielded with two hands. Apparently the temple sword can be used in a flurry (I haven't seen the stats), so there seems to be no problem here.

You have to remember that only weapons with the "double" property can be used in a flurry of blows. As per page 144, when you weild a weapon as a double weapon, you are NOT weilding it two-handed, but instead as a one-hand weapon in your primary hand, and a light one-hand weapon in your off-hand.

Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons

Monks are a special case:

PSRD wrote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

This reference to full Strength bonus, is in reference to the off-hand attacks. Normally, the damage bonus would be -50%, however monks do not suffer this damage penalty.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Tanis wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

You can not use a two-handed weapon in combination of flurry with blows.

Flurry of Blows attacks are made "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is very clear on the benefits the feat provides for primary and off-hand weapons.

Two-handed weapon is different to two weapons you realise.

When attacking with Flurry of Blows you MUST attack as if attacking with TWO SEPERATE WEAPONS, as per the benefit provided by the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat.

You can NOT attack with a Two-Handed Weapon in a flurry of blows. You CAN use a "Double" Weapon, however a Double weapon is NOT a Two-Handed Weapon -- it is treated as two seperate weapons, with the second end being a "Light Weapon". (As per "Double" defined on Page 144).

A temple sword is NOT a Double weapon, therefore wielding it two-handed is no different than weilding a longsword two-handed.

Incorrect, as evidenced by the Zen Archer who can flurry with a bow (which you can obviously not use more than one of), the Monk need only use one weapon for a flurry.

Quote:
When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

Note that since the more specific rule trumps the more general rule, the flurry of blows text stating "any combination of" trumps the two-weapon fighting rules of main/off alternation. The TWF feat is referenced to prevent people from stacking with it, and to describe the penalties incurred to your to-hit.

Also, two-weapon fighting only requires that you be able to use different limbs for the different attacks. You can TWF with a two-hander and unarmed strike, because you can use kicks for the off-hand attacks. You can also TWF with armor spikes and a two-handed weapon. The use of the term "off-hand" is not meant to restrict it to an actual hand, it's mean to denote that it's a different attack from your "main hand" one, which is also not required to be a hand (a fighter with IUS could TWF with his face and a foot, if he wants).

If you could not (through one of the two above methods) attack with a two-handed weapon in a flurry, then the line restricting your strength modifier when using a two-handed weapon would be unnecessary.


Barber wrote:

Hello,

Was working on my monk and a strange thought came to me. If I wield my temple sword with two hands, I know I will only receive my strength bonus to damage, but with "power attack" will I still get the additional +50%? I know I can flurry with the sucker, but what about two-handing it and flurrying? +50% or not?

Thanks for your time
Matt

See my comments above that define how the flurry of blows combines with double weapons.

With regards to the power attack feat question:

If you are weilding a temple sword (a one-handed weapon) as a two-handed weapon, then you do gain the normal two-handed weapon benefits including the bonus provided with this feat. However, you can not flurry with it, since you can not flurry with a weapon being weilded as a two-handed weapon. (See my posts above for references as to when a Double weapon like a quarter staff is being weilder either as a two-handed weapon, or as two weapons).

If the weapon was instead a quarterstaff, then you have to decide whether you are weilding it as a two-handed weapon or as two weapon (a one-hand primary hand weapon, and a one-hand light off-hand weapon).

Wielded two-handed you do gain the benefits of the power attack feat, but you cannot flurry with it since you can not flurry with a weapon being weilded as a two-handed weapon.

Weilded as a one-hand primary hand weapon, and a one-hand light off-hand weapon (which you can do with a double weapon), then you have a bonafide problem with how the rules are written. Power attack states, "This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon)." Monks, do not suffer the normal penalty to their off-hand attacks, as per page 57 "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or with a weapon weilded in both hands."

I believe the wording of the above quoted monk exception, would then remove the power attack damage reduction normally applied to off-hand weapons. However, I agree that this is not clear and that this would only be my interpretation.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
However, you can not flurry with it, since you can not flurry with a weapon being weilded as a two-handed weapon. (See my posts above for references as to when a Double weapon like a quarter staff is being weilder either as a two-handed weapon, or as two weapons).

At no point does the Monk ability of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat state you can't use a two-handed weapon when two-weapon fighting.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Also, two-weapon fighting only requires that you be able to use different limbs for the different attacks. You can TWF with a two-hander and unarmed strike, because you can use kicks for the off-hand attacks. You can also TWF with armor spikes and a two-handed weapon. The use of the term "off-hand" is not meant to restrict it to an actual hand, it's mean to denote that it's a different attack from your "main hand" one, which is also not required to be a hand (a fighter with IUS could TWF with his face and a foot, if he wants).

This is an interesting note. Since the rules regarding two-weapon fighting do reference "primary hand" and "secondary hand", I don't think they were written with the intent of using a two-handed weapon as your primary hand weapon. If there is a rule reference for this, please let me know. Accordingly, don't believe that the rules allow for you to make a off-hand attack when wielding a two-handed weapon.

The extra attack that you can make with armor spikes (as an off-hand weapon) would only be available if you have an off-hand attack available. If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, then you do not have an off-hand attack available.

I do agree though that this is not well defined in the rules, especially since no where in the rules does it define exactly what an off-hand attack is, and what you can and can't do with it. (If it is defined, please let me know but I couldn't find it).

Since this is not referenced in the rules though, I can certainly understand your point. I think what this all comes down to is: Does wielding a two-handed weapon take away the ability to make off-hand attacks? (Aside from the double weapon rules as I have stated in the above posts).

I believe it does, but I agree that the rules are not clear here and accordingly could also be interpreted as per the quote above.

If anyone does have rules references indicating that you can make off-hand attacks while wielding a two-handed weapon, please post them here. Thanks.

(I'm going to make a seperate post for the bolded inquiry above, since understanding that may make this issue a lot easier to understand.)


Cartigan wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
However, you can not flurry with it, since you can not flurry with a weapon being weilded as a two-handed weapon. (See my posts above for references as to when a Double weapon like a quarter staff is being weilder either as a two-handed weapon, or as two weapons).
At no point does the Monk ability of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat state you can't use a two-handed weapon when two-weapon fighting.

Feel free to read all my posts, not just a small section of one of them.


Monks, two weapon fighting, off handed weapon attacks, and two handed weapons:

First two weapon fighting and flurrying together:

Rules wrote:


When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

So you are making an extra attack as if two weapon fighting, which means you can't get another attack by two weapon fighting (since you are already treated as if you are).

Secondly two handed weapons:

Rules wrote:


A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

So it doesn't matter what type of weapon you use or if it is an off hand attack or not-- you are still only getting full strength damage regardless. You can flurry with any monk weapon two handed or not (including the quarterstaff, a temple sword or any other monk weapon that you can use with two hands) you just don't really get any benefit from doing so.

Next none monk weapons and natural attacks with flurry of blows:

Rules wrote:


A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

So if you make a flurry of blows you may not attack with any other weapon or attack form while doing so.


Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:
However, you can not flurry with it, since you can not flurry with a weapon being weilded as a two-handed weapon. (See my posts above for references as to when a Double weapon like a quarter staff is being weilder either as a two-handed weapon, or as two weapons).
At no point does the Monk ability of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat state you can't use a two-handed weapon when two-weapon fighting.
Feel free to read all my posts, not just a small section of one of them.

Do your posts magically add the words "You can't use two-hand weapons when two weapon fighting" to the rules?


Do your posts magically add the words "You can't use two-hand weapons when two weapon fighting" to the rules?

Cartigan, you are just being obtuse with this statement. Of course you can't use a two handed weapon when using the two weapon fighting feat. There is a Two Handed feat. There is nothing saying a Monk can not use a weapon two handed, but you can't use the Two Weapon Fighting feat when doing so, it doesn't have to say it. If you are using this way, you certainly have the right, but it is just plain ignorant.

On a slightly different note here, my DM said we can't use the Temple Sword when using Flurry of Blows, because it isn't specifically listed, and it has a 19-20 critical range. I have been browsing the forums and can't find where he found this. But, he is the DM so his word is law. I just want to find out where he got this rule.

The Exchange

Rudimus wrote:


On a slightly different note here, my DM said we can't use the Temple Sword when using Flurry of Blows, because it isn't specifically listed, and it has a 19-20 critical range. I have been browsing the forums and can't find where he found this. But, he is the DM so his word is law. I just want to find out where he got this rule.

I would have to disagree with your dm here

"A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows."

A temple sword is a monk weapon and thus legal. now if he says too bad then there is nothing you can do, but the rules definitely allow it.

"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."

I read this as when you wield that temple sword in two hands you get 1x str bonus but the full effect of power attack.

"You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."

The Exchange

bump


This is interesting! You know you could use a large sized temple sword at -2 to hit and basically get a monk greatsword for -2 to hit.... hmmmm.....


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Power Attack has nothing to do with Strength bonuses.

Unless you are using natural attacks, you are absolutely correct. It looks as though you would get x1 strength modifier and x1.5 power attack when flurrying with a temple sword.

You can indeed dual-wield a two-handed weapon along with another off-hand weapon (such as armor spikes). It's not even an optimal way to go, but it is an option despite what some would say.


You can flurry with a temple sword in both hands and get the 1 1/2 strength bonus and use a kick as the next attack in the flurry. Power Attack works normally.

See Damage on page 16 of the core to determine the "Full" strength bonus while using Flurry.

The Exchange

Mr. Damage wrote:
You can flurry with a temple sword in both hands and get the 1 1/2 strength bonus

Pretty sure no. as i said before you get 1x str bonus on your flurry attacks. originally, i think it was meant to effectively give you double slice with your flurrys but it inadvertently (unless done on purpose of course) takes out the possibility of 1&1/2 str bonus. the ability i have in question is does the power attack get the 50% increase for THing the sword because it also says a weapon held in two hands. which could be in reference to a double weapon but is left open.


the_hulk wrote:
Mr. Damage wrote:
You can flurry with a temple sword in both hands and get the 1 1/2 strength bonus
Pretty sure no. as i said before you get 1x str bonus on your flurry attacks. originally, i think it was meant to effectively give you double slice with your flurrys but it inadvertently (unless done on purpose of course) takes out the possibility of 1&1/2 str bonus. the ability i have in question is does the power attack get the 50% increase for THing the sword because it also says a weapon held in two hands. which could be in reference to a double weapon but is left open.

I must disagree, the text specifically states that you get your full strength bonus in flurry and on page 16 of the core book it states that the full bonus is 1 1/2 times strength with a weapon in two hands. It is very specific.

I agree with your point about providing Double Slice as a free feat.


Quote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

Your full strength bonus is x1.0. It is not 1/2, it is not 1.5. it is 1. Your full strength bonus- not your bonus plus more. or your bonus minus some.

This means, among other things, that a monk doesn't get docked half his str bonus on "off hand" attacks. It also means that he doesn't get +1/2 for using a two handed weapon.

-S

Dark Archive

Mr. Damage wrote:
the_hulk wrote:
Mr. Damage wrote:
You can flurry with a temple sword in both hands and get the 1 1/2 strength bonus
Pretty sure no. as i said before you get 1x str bonus on your flurry attacks. originally, i think it was meant to effectively give you double slice with your flurrys but it inadvertently (unless done on purpose of course) takes out the possibility of 1&1/2 str bonus. the ability i have in question is does the power attack get the 50% increase for THing the sword because it also says a weapon held in two hands. which could be in reference to a double weapon but is left open.

I must disagree, the text specifically states that you get your full strength bonus in flurry and on page 16 of the core book it states that the full bonus is 1 1/2 times strength with a weapon in two hands. It is very specific.

I agree with your point about providing Double Slice as a free feat.

Here is the important part of Flurry:

Quote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

Note that it does not say "Full damage bonus" but "Full Strength bonus". If it said full damage bonus, then it would be like a normal attack (with light weapons only getting 1/2 str bonus to damage since that is the "full" bonus that they receive.) But since it states full Strength bonus, you just apply your normal Strength bonus to damage.

On the side note, since it say "full strength bonus" does this mean that if you have no strength bonus, but a penalty due to str lower then 10, that you add a bonus of "0" since you do not have one? After all, it could have said "Full strength modifier".


Happler wrote:
On the side note, since it say "full strength bonus" does this mean that if you have no strength bonus, but a penalty due to str lower then 10, that you add a bonus of "0" since you do not have one? After all, it could have said "Full strength modifier".

Don't be silly :P

...

Regarding OP:

It doesn't matter whether you flurry a templesword in two-handed style or not; you only get your Strength bonus in damage (not x1.5) - because of that you also only get +2 bonus damage from power attack.


LoreKeeper wrote:
Happler wrote:
On the side note, since it say "full strength bonus" does this mean that if you have no strength bonus, but a penalty due to str lower then 10, that you add a bonus of "0" since you do not have one? After all, it could have said "Full strength modifier".

Don't be silly :P

...

Regarding OP:

It doesn't matter whether you flurry a templesword in two-handed style or not; you only get your Strength bonus in damage (not x1.5) - because of that you also only get +2 bonus damage from power attack.

Sorry Lorekeeper, it doesn't work that way. If it did, Double Slice would increase off-hand PA damage, which it does not.

By the rules as written, as far as I can tell, a monk Flurrying with a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon, or as a temple sword with two hands, deals PA sacrifice x 3 (or baseline PA damage x1.5, however you prefer to phrase it.)


Regarding the OPs original subject, whether or not or recieve +50% dam with a 2h wp while using it as part of a flurry action, it comes down specificly to a simple thing.

Is the power attack feat, and the rules about it completely summerizing? if the answer is yes, then RAW would indicate that you recieve +50% dam while using a two hander anyway. The problem with this, is that asuming the text is completely summerizing, every rule in the book should be that too, and that is clearly not the case.

So if we asume that it does NOT sumerize everything, we have to actually look at the rules and focus on the intent, and stuff that is included, but not written. It should be quite clear that the bonus dam power attack gives, acts in every way as strength bonus damage, including how is it multiplied with weapons, used on a crit, and so forth. So a rule that specificly tells us strenght damage only applies as x1.0, despite using a 2h weapon while flurying, must therefore also apply to power attack, as power attack is supposed to function exactly like strength bonus damage.

tl;dr the power attack bonus is not multiplied by 50% while using a 2h wp on a flurry.

Dark Archive

There's very important differences in everything that's being said, and it continue to go into a loop. Let's review.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:


A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

So we receive 100% of our strength bonus in all attacks, as previously stated, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

So, now I'm holding a temple sword in both of my hands. It normally would recieve 1.5x my Strength modifier, but due to how Flurry is worded, I only recieve 100% for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows (so, in this example, we'll use +2).

Now, let's look at Power Attack.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:


You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Now, since we are using the temple sword in two hands, and flurrying with it, as far as rules go, I recieve my natural strength bonus of +2, and I take a -1 to hit, for +3, total +5.

I don't see the confusion.


Rizzym Jaderenai wrote:


Now, since we are using the temple swor din two hands, and flurrying with it, as far as rules go, I recieve my natural strength bonus of +2, and I take a -1 to hit, for +3, at first level.

I don't see the confusion.

Small nitpick. Monks have 3/4ths BAB. So they can't pick PA up until level 3. But otherwise, well said :)

Dark Archive

My mistake - thanks for pointing it out.

I like the flavor of monks, but mechanically? Eh...

EDIT: Above post edited for clarity

The Exchange

nicklas, i see your point. that might be the RAI and i wouldnt fight an errata for that.

"you must gain the benefit of 1 1/2 str bonus to gain the additional 50% due to power attack" or something like that. that would work with the natural attack section of it:

or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

but as it stands, i agree with Rizzym


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Flurry and power attack work independently of one another. One's rules has ZERO bearing on the other's rules.

Flurry is clear in that you only get x1 your strength modifier, regardless of how the weapon is wielded.

Power Attack is clear in that, if you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon in two-hands, you get more damage out of Power Attack.

A 10th-level monk with 18 Strength flurrying and power attacking with a non-magical temple sword would deal 1d8+13 damage (he gets +9 to damage from power attack on account of him having an effective full base attack bonus while flurrying, but note that he still only has x1 damage from strength due to the flurry rules).

1 to 50 of 68 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Temple Sword + Power Attack All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.