Does anyone else think that swim should be a class skill for every class? I mean, a cloistered cleric, or a studious wizard might not get out as much as the fleeing sorcerer, but that shouldn't mean your ranger buddy can't teach you the breast-stroke. Input?
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The only difference between a class skill and a cross-class skill is 3 points. So, if a 10th level cloistered cleric and a 10th level ranger were to max out their Swim skill, the cleric would have +10 and the ranger would have +13. Not a big difference. (This, of course does not take into account their Strenth modifiers.) The ranger gets that bonus because he's spent his time out in the wilderness. The cloistered cleric does not get this bonus because he's spent his time indoors. This makes sense to me. So, no, I do not think that Swim should be a class skill for every class. :)
Does anyone else think that swim should be a class skill for every class? I mean, a cloistered cleric, or a studious wizard might not get out as much as the fleeing sorcerer, but that shouldn't mean your ranger buddy can't teach you the breast-stroke. Input?
Yes, it's just you. If the ranger buddy teaches the studious wizard the breaststroke, it can be easily represented by the wizard's player investing some skill points in Swim. This sort of thing is far easier in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5.
So are we saying that swimming as class skill is the byproduct of growing up in the wilderness, familiarizing his/herself with the water? Because to me, that seems a bit different than weeks/months spent perfecting disguise, moving silently, picking locks, disabling traps, et cetera. I understand that the difference isn't much between the class skills and the cross-classed, but it seems a bit silly (to me) to think that something as instinctual as swimming wouldn't come fairly easy to all classes.
To that extent, there are classes out there that may *utilize* the knowledge more on the whole, but I don't think swimming as a class skill should be dependent on the class, really.
So that's where I'm coming from.
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So are we saying that swimming as class skill is the byproduct of growing up in the wilderness, familiarizing his/herself with the water? Because to me, that seems a bit different than weeks/months spent perfecting disguise, moving silently, picking locks, disabling traps, et cetera. I understand that the difference isn't much between the class skills and the cross-classed, but it seems a bit silly (to me) to think that something as instinctual as swimming wouldn't come fairly easy to all classes.
To that extent, there are classes out there that may *utilize* the knowledge more on the whole, but I don't think swimming as a class skill should be dependent on the class, really.
So that's where I'm coming from.
That's your mistake right there.
Swimming isn't instinctive at all. It's something you have to learn, and if you want to get good at it you have to train a lot.
If your querying the notion of class skills all together then that's a different notion (a wizard is just as capable of taking a lot of lessons in wilderness survival as a ranger, and he/she can live and grow up in the woods too).
I understand that the difference isn't much between the class skills and the cross-classed, but it seems a bit silly (to me) to think that something as instinctual as swimming wouldn't come fairly easy to all classes.
Swimming isn't nearly as instinctual as many people who learned to swim at an early age seem to think. As an example:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-07/the-louisiana-dro wning-why-many-blacks-cant-swim/
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Swimming might be a class skill for everyone... IF your setting is something like Tonga or Norway. But if your setting is, say, Nubia? It probably shouldn't be a class skill for anyone. I can see this working very differently in many different environments, but for standard fantasy environments it works just fine as it is.
If you swim because thats how you escape your enemies, catch your food, cross your obstacles, or push your body's limits, then swimming should be a class skill for you. I don't see "standard" wizards or cloistered clerics doing those things very often.
Besides, PF makes it much easier on non-class skills. 1 for 1 point to rank purchase, no artificial cap on them. Wizards and cloistered clerics can be good swimmers, getting training in the city pool. Rangers, barbarians, and monks are better swimmers, because they are doing it to escape angry wolves, catch aligators for roasting, and train muscles by swimming against the current.
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Does anyone else think that swim should be a class skill for every class? I mean, a cloistered cleric, or a studious wizard might not get out as much as the fleeing sorcerer, but that shouldn't mean your ranger buddy can't teach you the breast-stroke. Input?
There is more than one Character Trait that comes to mind (a thing that really didn't become a main part of the PFRPG until the APG came out but has been used with APs and that ultra-coolo free download on this here website) that gives you Swim as a class skill, and usually a small Trait bonus to it as well, so you can always go that route if your GM allows Traits at character creation or allows the Extra Traits feat from the APG.
As the current GM in my gaming group I have found Traits to be awesome ways for players to be able to make the Cleric Who Swims or the Wizard Who Sneaks. Since I am running a maritime / ship-based campaign many characters took a Trait to get Swim as a class skill since the new it would come in handy sooner or later.
There's also a pretty inclusive list on the Archives of Nethys website as well as on the d20pfsrd:
Archives of Nethys Linkamagig for Traits
d20pfsrd Linkamagig for Traits
Linkamagig to the DL page with the Free Traits DL on This Awesome Website
If you swim because thats how you escape your enemies, catch your food, cross your obstacles, or push your body's limits, then swimming should be a class skill for you. I don't see "standard" wizards or cloistered clerics doing those things very often.
Besides, PF makes it much easier on non-class skills. 1 for 1 point to rank purchase, no artificial cap on them. Wizards and cloistered clerics can be good swimmers, getting training in the city pool. Rangers, barbarians, and monks are better swimmers, because they are doing it to escape angry wolves, catch aligators for roasting, and train muscles by swimming against the current.
Right, but if you take the trait that explains why your wizard has swim as a class skill, that wizard swims as well or better than the ranger or the druid.
Traits let you personalize things so you don't have silly stuff like the random mountain man always swimming better than the kid from the beach town who has an octopus for a familiar.