I have a few questions some deal with rules generally and some deal with pathfinder society games.
If you have the monk unarmed strike ability does your unarmed strike count as a natural attack? I think the answer is it depends.
Let me assume for a second it does.
I make a level 1 monk orc. I take the racial trait that lets me substitue orc ferocity for a bite natural attack.
Lets say i use a spear.
Attack 1: Spear BAB+Strength
Attack 2: Natural Attack 1: Kick1 (a monk can make unarmed attacks with both hands full..using elbows...kicks whatever) BAB+Strength-5 (all natural attacks are at minus 5 when you attack with a weapon because they are treated as secondary attacks in this regard)
Attack 3: Natural Attack 2: Kick2 BAB+Strength-5
Attack 4: Natural Attack 3: Bite BAB+Strength-5
I assume this is illegal because it seems broken.
Plus then i can take at level 1 Multiattack...
Attack 1: Spear BAB+Strength
Attack 2: Natural Attack 1: Kick1 BAB+Strength-2
Attack 3: Natural Attack 2: Kick2 BAB+Strength-2
Attack 4: Natural Attack 3: Bite BAB+Strength-2
Also i guess i could really use a one handed weapon and get 5 attacks...
Attack 1: Short Sword BAB+Strength
Attack 2: Natural Attack 1: Kick1 BAB+Strength-2
Attack 3: Natural Attack 2: Kick2 BAB+Strength-2
Attack 4: Natural Attack 3: Bite BAB+Strength-2
Attack 5: Natural Attack 4: Punch1 BAB+Strength-2
I know you can't use a single limb for more then one attack... but since a monk can attack with all its limbs ... and it seems that they should be natural attacks i don't see a rules problem with this.
I am not really interested it if this "should" be allowed but on whether or not it is against the rules and how. Also if it is not against the rules i am curious if it is against the pathfinder society rules.
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No, in this instance a Monk's Unarmed attack works quite similar to having a weapon in both hands/on both feet/etc.
Extra attacks are gained through: High BAB or Two-Weapon Fighting.
Flurry of Blows already incorporates both of these into its attack pattern.
If they WERE considered natural attacks, then why stop at three or four like in your examples?
1: Kick1
2: Kick2
3: Punch1
4: Punch2
5: Elbow1
...
7: Knee1
...
9: Headbutt
And on and on. All parts of a Monk's body are considered Unarmed Weapons after all.
EDIT: Its against RAW and therefore against Society rules. Also, Multiattack is not usable at all in Society.
A humanoid Monk does not have natural attacks unless a special ability grants him natural attacks. Unarmed strikes are not natural attacks, and are not done with any specific part of the body. You can't designate more parts of the body to get more unarmed strikes; that's not how they work.
If you have the monk unarmed strike ability does your unarmed strike count as a natural attack? I think the answer is it depends.
No, the rules are pretty specific:
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Does your example involve spells or effects that enhance or improve natural weapons? It doesn't look like it.
Well the reason why you can't use elbow and punch I beleive is becasue of some verbage about using a single limb more then once.
I agree whole heartedly that this can not be done but I don't really see where it says that.
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Ok so in this case it is treated as a manufacture weapon and a natural weapon but where does it say that it isn't treated as a natural weapon in other cases? It seems like it should be.
Multiattack not being useable in pathfinder society at all point taken..."Pathfinder RPG Bestiary ... Feats: none of the feats
are legal for play" I didn't have the resource at my finger tips when taking a look at this.
AvalonXQ "Unarmed strikes are not natural attacks" How do i know that?
I guess since it is not expressly designated a natural attack it is considered one. I am not sure how i feel about that. Although as i said there should be someting against it so maybe that is it.
Ok so in this case it is treated as a manufacture weapon and a natural weapon but where does it say that it isn't treated as a natural weapon in other cases? It seems like it should be.
In the Combat section:
"Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: [etc., etc.]"
OK i read that as well but it was much more convincing when you showed it to me ... Thanks
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Ok so in this case it is treated as a manufacture weapon and a natural weapon but where does it say that it isn't treated as a natural weapon in other cases? It seems like it should be.In the Combat section:
"Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: [etc., etc.]"
Natural weapons are melee weapons too. You *can* iterative with them if you want, it's just that it's never really worth it compared to a natural weapon progression.
I'd probably allow a character to treat "Unarmed Strike" as a single natural weapon for their attack litany, applying penalties as normal (TWF to any manufactured weapons, secondary for the natural weapons). This would be a bad idea without IUS, but I'd probably allow it then too.
Technically Unarmed Strike is it's own attack type (next to Ranged/Manufactured, Melee/Manufactured and Natural).
EDIT: This sub-section of the Unarmed Attacks section is also interesting:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
It notes that natural attacks are a case of "unarmed attacks" along with IUS, which seems to imply similar treatment (though you can't override the "no double-dipping a limb" rule).
You *can* iterative with them if you want, it's just that it's never really worth it compared to a natural weapon progression.
No, you can't.
Core p.182- Natural Attacks:....These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack...
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You *can* iterative with them if you want, it's just that it's never really worth it compared to a natural weapon progression.No, you can't.
Core p.182- Natural Attacks:....These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack...
Which, interpreted strictly, means that a claw-glove using dude with a BAB of +16 can attack 4 times as often as a creature with equal BAB and one natural claw. (7/4 as often with TWF and a creature with two claws, a more likely scenario). Note that BAB is supposed to be an expression of general martial skill.
Yeah, VETO that as making no sense ever.That line's most likely there to balance out creatures with high BAB and 8 natural attacks so that they don't just take multi-attack and get a bunch of extra damage. Though I never liked creatures getting "free" attacks by using a different progression.
I would probably just allow a character to iterative a natural attack as long as they didn't mix other natural weapons (unless they used TWF with one extra).
But you can already use your high bab to get iterative attacks if you attack with an unarmed strike or manufactured weapon in conjunction with your natural attacks.
You just suffer TWF or MWF penalties. Which you can reduce through the appropriate feats.
Or you can veto, i guess, but there's already a mechanism to resolve it.
And you should probably mention if what you're saying is RAW or a houserule as we're in the Rules Questions forum.
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But you can already use your high bab to get iterative attacks if you attack with an unarmed strike or manufactured weapon in conjunction with your natural attacks.
You just suffer TWF or MWF penalties. Which you can reduce through the appropriate feats.
Or you can veto, i guess, but there's already a mechanism to resolve it.
And you should probably mention if what you're saying is RAW or a houserule as we're in the Rules Questions forum.
Alright, so strictly speaking what I wrote in my last post is not RAW, it's just my attempt to keep the game making a semblance of sense. I don't see why one would be able to iterative with a metal bit or an elbow, but can't with the sharp pointy claws built into their hands.
Note that the way RAW is currently written a guy with two claws gets two attacks, but a guy with two claw-gloves (say, cestus, which is at least ballpark-similar) can only get one if he doesn't invest a feat. To continue, a guy that has two claws with +16 BAB and multi-attack can do 5 attacks if they put metal bits over their class, but only 2 if he doesn't. Seems a bit silly.
Unarmed strike is both iterative and natural in a weird way. It is it's own thing that counts mostly as a manufactured weapon, but partially as a natural, but not like either in many situations. I think it's probably an effort to allow normal PCs to use their body as a weapon without giving them natural attacks without needing to do extensive balance work.
Oh, and to give my answer to the OP before this completely hopelessly derails:
@OP: (By RAW)You must treat the unarmed strike as equivalent to a normal melee weapon for the purposes of how it fits into an attack spread. This means that if they don't have TWF they are taking massive penalties if they try to mix it with another weapon. It can also mix with itself using TWFing, but the iterative progression isn't (under normal circumstances) allowed more than 2 attack lines, so a person without natural attacks cannot exceed 7 attacks without magic (or ki). Though if you had two claws you could get up to 7 attacks using unarmed strike with a leg and your face, then use the claws as secondary to give yourself 9 attacks.
I agree with everything you are saying ... just to clarify and beat a dead horse...
If I have a half orc with a bite attack making use of unarmed strike it would look like...
Unarmed Strike = BAB+STRENGTH
Bite (Natural Attack) = BAB+STRENGTH-5
Not like this (this would only be the case if all the attacks were natural and an unarmed strike is not):
Unarmed Strike = BAB+STRENGTH
Bite (Natural Attack) = BAB+STRENGTH
Correct?
I agree with everything you are saying ... just to clarify and beat a dead horse...
If I have a half orc with a bite attack making use of unarmed strike it would look like...
Unarmed Strike = BAB+STRENGTH
Bite (Natural Attack) = BAB+STRENGTH-5Not like this (this would only be the case if all the attacks were natural and an unarmed strike is not):
Unarmed Strike = BAB+STRENGTH
Bite (Natural Attack) = BAB+STRENGTHCorrect?
Actually, I think it's worse:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Emphasis mine. So it would look like:
Unarmed Strike = BAB+STR-TWF penalty (assuming off-hand weapon is light)
Bite=BAB+STR-5
BUT...if you check the Bestiary, none of the creatures (e.g. werewolf, lizardfolk) suffer the TWF penalty, so maybe it's an error. I've started a new thread to discuss it.
Actually I have the answer for this. See the bottom. Text and link included below.
I found this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering---final/combat---final
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Just so you know:
The bolded part of the sentence (above) is, I believe, incorrect; a fragment left in the rules from an earlier draft. Additional attacks made with natural weapons while you wield a manufactured weapon are treated as secondary attacks (and thus get a -5 penalty on attack rolls; a penalty that can be offset by Multiattack) but do NOT suffer additional penalties as if they were off-hand weapons.
Basically, the bolded part of the post above is wrong. It's a fragment left in the game from an earlier draft, and it should go away (hopefully in the latest upcoming round of errata).
-James Jacobs on the Paizo Rules Questions forum
Ah the bold didn't show up anyway i think you will get the idea.
Ah the bold didn't show up anyway i think you will get the idea.
Gotcha. It doesn't look like it made it into the errata yet, though.
Agreed with the above, though there is a way to get 4 attacks at Level 3 this way, if you really wanted to:
Attack 1: Flurry attack #1: BAB+Strength-4
Attack 2: Flurry attack #2: BAB+Strength-4
Attack 3: Natural Attack 1: Bite BAB+Strength-9
Attack 4: 5' back, thrown : Club BAB+Dexterity-4
With the racial trait swap, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. The Flurry and Rapid Shot penalties stack on all attacks though.
Agreed with the above, though there is a way to get 4 attacks at Level 3 this way, if you really wanted to:
Attack 1: Flurry attack #1: BAB+Strength-4
Attack 2: Flurry attack #2: BAB+Strength-4
Attack 3: Natural Attack 1: Bite BAB+Strength-9
Attack 4: 5' back, thrown : Club BAB+Dexterity-4With the racial trait swap, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. The Flurry and Rapid Shot penalties stack on all attacks though.
uh, no.
Core p.57-8: A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks..
Oh, you're right, you're right. At least about the natural attacks. The thrown attack isn't part of the flurry itself (and thus I should have noted it would have a different BAB (actual BAB instead of monk level).
So yep! 2nd level Half-orc fighter can do it though - TWF, PBS, RS, and that trait swap.
Tanis already found the quote I was thinking of, which invalidates the tactic Alcibades was worried about along with Majuba's. Shurikens count as a special monk weapon though, so a (presumably human) 1st level monk with Rapid Shot can make 3 shuriken attacks which will hit almost nothing for almost no damage.
I'd be more concerned about half-orc rogues (and maybe paladins) than monks anyhow. Three sneak attacks (TWF and bite) could be pretty nasty. I figure the bite even works with weapon finesse. It might be kind of funny for the paladin to "bite evil" too. If there's a problem here it is with the half-orc ability, not monks. Honestly I think they're both OK though.
You could flurry twice, 5' step back, and throw a shuriken as your third flurry attack tho.
Don't you need to make a Full-Attack action with a Ranged weapon to benefit from Rapid Shot?
Yeah, he was talking about throwing the club.
You could flurry twice, 5' step back, and throw a shuriken as your third flurry attack tho.That might be close to marginally useful. It looks like Crusufix is right though...
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
It sounds like you need to be making your entire full attack with a ranged weapon to benefit from Rapid Shot. I could even imagine DMs getting stubborn about letting it work with thrown weapons since the feat says "a ranged weapon", not "a ranged weapon or weapons". Those DMs probably need to be subject to a shuriken flurry though (it isn't like the 3d2 damage would seriously harm them)
Thoughts on flurry/rapid shot
A couple of things:
First off you can normally make either melee attacks or ranged attacks intermixed with a full attack action. So it is possible to begin with.
Now on to rapid shot:
When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
Now it doesn't say "When making a full-attack action with only a ranged weapon." Also it says all your attack rolls, not all your ranged attack rolls, or anything else to suggest you can't mix the attacks.
As long as you use monk weapons you can flurry. And you can intermix during a flurry -- also nothing about flurry states you can't get extra attacks with monk weapons that don't rely on two weapon fighting.
So as long as you are willing to take the -2 penalty on top of the -2 penalty for flurrying you could get in the rapid shot with the flurry.
That's the way I've always played it, Abraham. After reading Crusufix's post I checked the rules though. I think it really comes down to how you interpret "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round"
The first part could be interpreted several ways. It doesn't say whether or not the entire attack needs to be with the ranged weapon. The second part says you can fire one additional time this round. The word additional would lead me to believe that you need to have fired at least once so far to get the extra attack. The word fire kind of implies a projectile weapon though, and I don't think that's intended, so perhaps it is best not to over analyze this feat.
I think I'll keep running it as I have been. I'm curious if there's an official opinion or general consensus, but it isn't really a critical issue since I doubt a lot of Monks will opt for the additional -2 from Rapid Shot when shuriken have such low damage.