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Ultimately, I think it will become necessary for Paizo to provide an easy way for 4th edition players to switch systems. Early on there was a (pretty obvious) market for people who wanted a new game 'kinda like 3.5'. As we move on though, there will be fewer recruits from this path.
Speaking as a clueless know-nothing with an opinion anyway - it seems to me that the days of billions of different RPG systems with players cheerfully switching willy-nilly between games is passing. D&D is going to have the brand-name advantage amongst newcomers to the hobby for quite some time, therefore most 'self-taught' gamers are going to come to the hobby via 4th edition. The two games are different enough that I think it would be good value to put some thought into developing a path for people to switch from 4th edition to PF.
There's also the issue of a Pathfinder-lite/basic/intro/whatever which I believe is at least being discussed at Paizo. I think this is likely to be a good thing at getting newcomers to the hobby, but I'm not sure if the 4th edition crowd and the hobby-newcomer crowd are going to have the same needs.
[/unwarranted opinions]
Huh? What? How does this pertain to the OP?
Huh? What? How does this pertain to the OP?Ultimately, I think it will become necessary for Paizo to provide an easy way for 4th edition players to switch systems. Early on there was a (pretty obvious) market for people who wanted a new game 'kinda like 3.5'. As we move on though, there will be fewer recruits from this path.
Speaking as a clueless know-nothing with an opinion anyway - it seems to me that the days of billions of different RPG systems with players cheerfully switching willy-nilly between games is passing. D&D is going to have the brand-name advantage amongst newcomers to the hobby for quite some time, therefore most 'self-taught' gamers are going to come to the hobby via 4th edition. The two games are different enough that I think it would be good value to put some thought into developing a path for people to switch from 4th edition to PF.
There's also the issue of a Pathfinder-lite/basic/intro/whatever which I believe is at least being discussed at Paizo. I think this is likely to be a good thing at getting newcomers to the hobby, but I'm not sure if the 4th edition crowd and the hobby-newcomer crowd are going to have the same needs.
[/unwarranted opinions]
*shrug* Expand the brand - open up new markets?
Apologies.
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Ultimately, I think it will become necessary for Paizo to provide an easy way for 4th edition players to switch systems. Early on there was a (pretty obvious) market for people who wanted a new game 'kinda like 3.5'. As we move on though, there will be fewer recruits from this path.There are already a number of pathways, to get people who play 4e into playing pathfinder.
I'm not wrapping on why Paizo should concern itself making it "easier" for 4E players to switch systems. If 4e players want to play Pathfinder, have them play it. I play both systems; don't see why other folks can't do the same.
Anyway, back to the OP.... Another way to market Paizo could be more freebies like SGG's did with updates to its various products. Maybe more short adventures? OH! And "Pathfinder Days" when a new HC is released, it's a new PFS season, etc.
Because i think you have this wrong in a fairly major way. Now i might be wrong, but it seems to me that actually, in many ways the RPG industry is at about the healthiest place it has been in a while right now. We have Paizo, growing, taking on new staff. We have fantasy flight games publishing four successful licenced GW-IP based RPGs, in two seperate game systems, we have pinnicle with its pretty damned successful savage world system, as well as WotC with 4e.
I don't know a single game group that plays only one system, from grognards to teenaged players, a wider and wider number of games seem to being played.
The advent of PDF publishing, print on demand and digital play is actually seeming to fuel this, allowing games which might never have gotten anywhere at all in the past to become modest successes.
You may well be right (did I mention my clueless know-nothingness?). I certainly hope you are.
It's all filtered through my own perspective, of course which is hardly representative. Anyhow, I have apparently missed the point of the thread, so my apologies for the sidetrack.
By going after DnD players?
By removing a barrier to entry for DnD players, not poaching them.
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Get some celebrities playing Pathfinder. So when it is revealed that their dirty little secret / nerdy past is playing Pathfinder (rather than D&D) people will want to know what it is.
Send some copies of the core rules Matt Groening’s way – get the game mentioned on Simpsons and / or Futurama (Marge: Homer, were you out playing Dungeons and Dragons again last night? I thought you got over that phase in a single episode several seasons ago?
Homer: Pffft, Dungeons and Dragons is sooo 1980s. I was playing Pathfinder for hours and hours. Then I was slain by a pugwampi). Try to get one of the writers on Modern Family or something playing it, so they write it into the show. It can be Phil’s latest thing to be hip with the kids.
Get a well known author with some street cred or two to write a Pathfinder novel. Elaine Cunningham and Dave Gross are fantastic, but they’re probably best known for writing shared world fiction based on D&D settings (or writing gaming products in Dave’s case). Get China Mieville or Neil Gaiman someone to write a Pathfinder novel / graphic novel.
Get a really really cool Pathfinder shirt made, then get someone to wear it to some place that Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohen or Kim Kardasian (sp?) or someone would hang out, so it gets shown in the paparazzi photos when they are arrested for something or have a wardrobe malfunction or whatever the famous for being famous crowd are doing these days.
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Get some celebrities playing Pathfinder. So when it is revealed that their dirty little secret / nerdy past is playing Pathfinder (rather than D&D) people will want to know what it is.
Send some copies of the core rules Matt Groening’s way – get the game mentioned on Simpsons and / or Futurama (Marge: Homer, were you out playing Dungeons and Dragons again last night? I thought you got over that phase in a single episode several seasons ago?
Homer: Pffft, Dungeons and Dragons is sooo 1980s. I was playing Pathfinder for hours and hours. Then I was slain by a pugwampi). Try to get one of the writers on Modern Family or something playing it, so they write it into the show. It can be Phil’s latest thing to be hip with the kids.Get a well known author with some street cred or two to write a Pathfinder novel. Elaine Cunningham and Dave Gross are fantastic, but they’re probably best known for writing shared world fiction based on D&D settings (or writing gaming products in Dave’s case). Get China Mieville or Neil Gaiman someone to write a Pathfinder novel / graphic novel.
Youtube footage of folks playing Pathfinder!
Get some celebrities playing Pathfinder. So when it is revealed that their dirty little secret / nerdy past is playing Pathfinder (rather than D&D) people will want to know what it is.
Send some copies of the core rules Matt Groening’s way – get the game mentioned on Simpsons and / or Futurama (Marge: Homer, were you out playing Dungeons and Dragons again last night? I thought you got over that phase in a single episode several seasons ago?
Homer: Pffft, Dungeons and Dragons is sooo 1980s. I was playing Pathfinder for hours and hours. Then I was slain by a pugwampi). Try to get one of the writers on Modern Family or something playing it, so they write it into the show. It can be Phil’s latest thing to be hip with the kids.Get a well known author with some street cred or two to write a Pathfinder novel. Elaine Cunningham and Dave Gross are fantastic, but they’re probably best known for writing shared world fiction based on D&D settings (or writing gaming products in Dave’s case). Get China Mieville or Neil Gaiman someone to write a Pathfinder novel / graphic novel.
Get a really really cool Pathfinder shirt made, then get someone to wear it to some place that Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohen or Kim Kardasian (sp?) or someone would hang out, so it gets shown in the paparazzi photos when they are arrested for something or have a wardrobe malfunction or whatever the famous for being famous crowd are doing these days.
'or Neil Gaiman someone to write a Pathfinder novel / graphic novel.'
I would sell all my teeth and one of my kidneys for this....
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See if you can get Joaquin Phoenix to quit acting to become a developer for Pathfinder / celebrity GM / head of the new Pathfinder Live Action Roleplaying game. Have Casey Affleck make a totally unscripted, fly on the wall documentary about it.
Do a reality show of the Paizo staff as they struggle to develop the psionics rules. ;-)
Director of Brand Strategy
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Do a reality show of the Paizo staff as they struggle to develop the psionics rules. ;-)
We struggle with that so much that we haven't even started yet. Done! Season of reality tv in the can! If only making awesome RPG products were as easy...
There are some great suggestions here, and I'm sure Hyrum's thought of all of them and more. I just wonder what ho's going to do about the arm on his chair. (I won't say who broke it today, but Hyrum'd better not put too much weight on it.)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I agree with Steve Geddes above. Like it or not, Pathfinder is a hefty tome and probably a little intimidating to new players, 4e gamers or not. A Pathfinder fast play adventure with simplified rules would be a great introduction to Pathfinder that doesn't require a person to read a 500 page tome. Like it or not, a huge market is coming up in age every day and 4e is tapping that with their Essentials line. Pathfinder is not. A fastplay adventure would be a great start and probably not a terribly huge investment for the Paizo staff. You could even use an existing adventure, such as the Into the Woods-style adventure that they included in the box of goodies or one of the free PDFs such as Hollow's Last Hope.
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I agree with Steve Geddes above. Like it or not, Pathfinder is a hefty tome and probably a little intimidating to new players, 4e gamers or not. A Pathfinder fast play adventure with simplified rules would be a great introduction to Pathfinder that doesn't require a person to read a 500 page tome. Like it or not, a huge market is coming up in age every day and 4e is tapping that with their Essentials line. Pathfinder is not. A fastplay adventure would be a great start and probably not a terribly huge investment for the Paizo staff. You could even use an existing adventure, such as the Into the Woods-style adventure that they included in the box of goodies or one of the free PDFs such as Hollow's Last Hope.
I think it was Erik who posted over at the EN World Pathfinder boards that Paizo's lookin' into a basic set.
In all truthfulness, I'd like to see Paizo push the Pathfinder rule set in other directions. Now, before someone sprays napalm on me, let me explain.
I know how thin TSR/WotC had spread their work. That said, I would like to see another genre touched here and there officially rather than 3rd Party. For example, WotC declined the SW license. Instead of picking up the license and spending far too much money, how about a science fiction game where people could run something like Star Wars? (Or Trek, Firefly, BSG ... whatever)
When I look at the Pathfinder core books, I see a toolkit for fantasy. So how about a toolkit for Science Fiction? Maybe have a decent setting for it? If it works, maybe take on another genre eventually, but for now, see how science fiction fares.
Okay, NOW I'm ready for the napalm ;)
I agree with Steve Geddes above. Like it or not, Pathfinder is a hefty tome and probably a little intimidating to new players, 4e gamers or not. A Pathfinder fast play adventure with simplified rules would be a great introduction to Pathfinder that doesn't require a person to read a 500 page tome. Like it or not, a huge market is coming up in age every day and 4e is tapping that with their Essentials line. Pathfinder is not. A fastplay adventure would be a great start and probably not a terribly huge investment for the Paizo staff. You could even use an existing adventure, such as the Into the Woods-style adventure that they included in the box of goodies or one of the free PDFs such as Hollow's Last Hope.I think it was Erik who posted over at the EN World Pathfinder boards that Paizo's lookin' into a basic set.
He's also mentioned it on FB, and I think a few other places. Not that I'm stalking or anything...
I think Steve's point is a frank recognition of the necessity of competition in the expansion of Pf.
"Goblin Gear" clothing line...
"Goblin Gear" clothing line...
Dark blue/black, zip front hoody, with a screen printed Sihedron Rune on the back.
I'd buy.
Of course we're not. Just...enthusiastic...to the point of near borderline obsessive. (By the way, do you have Erik's sleep schedule down yet...?)
He's also mentioned it on FB, and I think a few other places. Not that I'm stalking or anything...
::Emails Excel updates::
Well, if you are still following along, I thing first you might want to ask yourself what the Pathfinder Brand IS NOT. Through absence you will find what it currently is. There will be examples of successful, and not-so-successful methodologies that do and don't necessarily work. In other words you will create a clearer image for yourself of what not to do (again).
Then look to peer companies to see what they have tried. Of course, make sure you are comparing apples to apples when it comes to peer companies. A good way to see this is to identify your demographic effectively.
Notice I said effectively. You already know you are targeting gamers. That is the easy sell, but look to how your target demo is split - whether it be geographically, financially, etc. As can be seen in this thread and others - even on other boards - it is fairly obvious that trends among gamers vary widely from geographic area to geographic are. For instance, I was a vendor recently at a local convention. At this convention I would hazard to estimate a full 30 - 50 percent of the crowd were EASILY Pathfinder Enthusiasts - as evidenced by their comments and the continual full PF games being ran. Which surprised me. It surprised me because in our area there are only two game stores of note and NEITHER of them (at the time) were very pro-PF.
The larger of the two is owned and ran by a guy that is very much Pro 4e, and for whatever reason, in his head you cant like 4e AND PF. So he typically only has one or two PF products at any given moment. The other store's owner, while not caring one way or the other about PF or 4e had just never really seen that much interest.
Both of these guys had clearly missed a huge market demand amongst their local demo and were clueless (a fact that has recently been remedied thankyouverymuch...at least in the second instance).
Once you i.d. the market and demo, all you have left from there is method (and of course budget, but that's on you chief). Obviously a television campaign - while it might be useful - it wouldn't be ideal; the cost-to-profit ratios just wouldn't be there. Same thing with radio - or ANY of the traditional media for that matter.
I suspect a web-advert campaign would be highly successful as long as you herded in target rich areas. From there you would gather info about your traffic somehow - surveys are nice, contests are better, actual orders are ideal. Having collected the info, you create a database and look for patterns and synergistic opportunities.
For instance, many of us - your key demo - are junk-food junkies. Sponsoring a label-change on a Soda Brand - might - be rewarding (per the DnD campaign of recent). For my money, I am not sure how successful that was - I cannot imagine that it was - Jones Soda only has a limited market saturation and entry point.
At this point I could drone on and on, but I wont. As to any actual useful ideas - well while many of may have some - I think they would be largely ineffective; we don't have access to your data.
Probably not much help on the surface. I have ran/built/trained several different sales and/or marketing (business development) departments over the years. Your task is by no means an easy one. I wish you the best of luck.
I want my Rovagug plushie where I squeeze him and he makes infernal hoary roars.
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I wonder if there'd be a way to "incentivize" 3PPs like Green Ronin, Goodman Games, NECROMANCER GAMES, etc. to return to publishing Pathfinder stuff.
There absolutely is. Buy so much of the current 3pp products that we regularly top the best sellers lists on DriveThruRPG/RPGNow/OBS. Buy copies of our PDFs to give to friends. Order copies of our print books through your local stores. Ask local conventions to give our materials out as prizes.
If any of those companies saw huge profits to be made supporting Pathfinder, they would.
Heck, GR has a Pathfinder companion for Freeport. If it sells like hotcakes, they'll look at other products too.
The incentive is sign you'll buy it.
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or instance, many of us - your key demo - are junk-food junkies. Sponsoring a label-change on a Soda Brand - might - be rewarding (per the DnD campaign of recent). For my money, I am not sure how successful that was - I cannot imagine that it was - Jones Soda only has a limited market saturation and entry point.
Is that actually true, or is that a supposition?
I think Hyrum needs to know his audience in reliable ways.
My current gaming group, 5 pathfinder fans, features:
3 people who will never, ever eat/drink mass market junk food.
2 people who only consume such things when drunk.
Maybe we're not representative of the market as a whole but maybe we are? (I have actually met about 70-80 rpg fans in my life and only one struck me as overweight, and he was a home-cooking junkie who was definitely not piling on the junk food (but hey, maybe I am in error for equating eating junk with weight).
So, yeah, Hyrum, remember one of the top rules of science - anecdotes mean nothing.
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::Emails Excel updates::Of course we're not. Just...enthusiastic...to the point of near borderline obsessive. (By the way, do you have Erik's sleep schedule down yet...?)
He's also mentioned it on FB, and I think a few other places. Not that I'm stalking or anything...
Perfect. *Preps camera, adds hookup for RSS feed to Mairkurion's PC*
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or instance, many of us - your key demo - are junk-food junkies. Sponsoring a label-change on a Soda Brand - might - be rewarding (per the DnD campaign of recent). For my money, I am not sure how successful that was - I cannot imagine that it was - Jones Soda only has a limited market saturation and entry point.Is that actually true, or is that a supposition?
I think Hyrum needs to know his audience in reliable ways.
My current gaming group, 5 pathfinder fans, features:
3 people who will never, ever eat/drink mass market junk food.
2 people who only consume such things when drunk.Maybe we're not representative of the market as a whole but maybe we are? (I have actually met about 70-80 rpg fans in my life and only one struck me as overweight, and he was a home-cooking junkie who was definitely not piling on the junk food (but hey, maybe I am in error for equating eating junk with weight).
So, yeah, Hyrum, remember one of the top rules of science - anecdotes mean nothing.
We also try to limit our intake of junk food. In our family, most of our bad eating probably involves cheese in one way or another. But I'm not sure how marketable a Pathfinderized cheese would be. :)
or instance, many of us - your key demo - are junk-food junkies. Sponsoring a label-change on a Soda Brand - might - be rewarding (per the DnD campaign of recent). For my money, I am not sure how successful that was - I cannot imagine that it was - Jones Soda only has a limited market saturation and entry point.Is that actually true, or is that a supposition?
I think Hyrum needs to know his audience in reliable ways.
My current gaming group, 5 pathfinder fans, features:
3 people who will never, ever eat/drink mass market junk food.
2 people who only consume such things when drunk.Maybe we're not representative of the market as a whole but maybe we are? (I have actually met about 70-80 rpg fans in my life and only one struck me as overweight, and he was a home-cooking junkie who was definitely not piling on the junk food (but hey, maybe I am in error for equating eating junk with weight).
So, yeah, Hyrum, remember one of the top rules of science - anecdotes mean nothing.
Well - the real point of that was to highlight the DnD/Jones Soda add - not to suppose, anecdotally or otherwise, any specific information. Had I been quoting hard-data for that part of it - I would have used a numerical figure other than 'many of us'. Though, to belabor the point - I think it can be said with some certainty that 'many' of us consume junk-food as it is one of the largest most profitable industries in the nation and world. Additionally it has to be considered that similar research went into just such a topic or the DnD/Jones Soda campaign most likely would have never launched. Additional evidence can easilly be garnered from the Billions of dollars annually that is spent in marketing campaigns just for 'junk-food' brands.
I do realize the slippery slope of my 'argument' however, and would again highlight that the point was not to offend or label based on supposed dietary intake but rather to emphasize with some real-world evidence the need for SOLID demographic data. Which, your response and the one shortly thereafter actually served to underline by your pointed disagreement of the core argument.
Oh...and thanks for actually reading that far into my post and taking the time to respond.
I FIRMLY believe that the NEED for brand development and increased market-share are needed for both Paizo AND Pathfinder. Lacking any brilliant ideas (as originally requested) or firm data I sought instead to give what I had to offer by drawing from my own skill-set - advice and consultation.
Pirates of the Carribean Campaign Setting
Heck, GR has a Pathfinder companion for Freeport. If it sells like hotcakes, they'll look at other products too.
The incentive is sign you'll buy it.
Got that sucker pre-ordered. Me wants the precious.
I agree with Steve Geddes above. Like it or not, Pathfinder is a hefty tome and probably a little intimidating to new players, 4e gamers or not. A Pathfinder fast play adventure with simplified rules would be a great introduction to Pathfinder that doesn't require a person to read a 500 page tome. Like it or not, a huge market is coming up in age every day and 4e is tapping that with their Essentials line. Pathfinder is not. A fastplay adventure would be a great start and probably not a terribly huge investment for the Paizo staff. You could even use an existing adventure, such as the Into the Woods-style adventure that they included in the box of goodies or one of the free PDFs such as Hollow's Last Hope.
I don't know a single game group that plays only one system, from grognards to teenaged players, a wider and wider number of games seem to being played.
We talked about this in our last podcast (Flagons & Dragons). The book is a beast, and I'd feel bad dropping that on some new players foot.
If I had the money, I'd probably give 4E another shot. As we discussed, it's a different game, not necessarily a bad game. Back when 4E was announced I felt blindsided and generally disenfranchised by WoTC. I didn't even give the game a chance. Paizo's Pathfinder was a no-brainer at the time.
I keep hearing about this 4E/Pathfinder war, but haven't seen evidence of it in our local area. Our group at least plays a number of systems, both RPGs and wargames.
But getting new players... people who have no connection to gaming... into the hobby? WoTC may have an edge at the moment. I'd love to see some stripped down adventure/rules set. Not that I can't do that on my own, but it'd be nice to hand the new players something that wouldn't scare them off.
We'll be talking about new players and such in our next podcast. Personally, when I'm introducing new players to D&D or Pathfinder, I give them only the most minimum of rules. Forget Attacks of Opportunity. Forget Grappling. In their first session their going to move, swing and roll for damage. Outside of some skill checking, that's about it. If they haven't had fun by the end of the night, then gaming probably isn't for them.
Just my two coppers.
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Director of Narrative
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I wonder if there'd be a way to "incentivize" 3PPs like Green Ronin, Goodman Games, NECROMANCER GAMES, etc. to return to publishing Pathfinder stuff.If any of those companies saw huge profits to be made supporting Pathfinder, they would.
Heck, GR has a Pathfinder companion for Freeport. If it sells like hotcakes, they'll look at other products too.
The incentive is sign you'll buy it.
As the fella who led the team on converting Freeport to Pathfinder, I can tell you that is absolutely the case.
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Get a really really cool Pathfinder shirt made, then get someone to wear it to some place that Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohen or Kim Kardasian (sp?) or someone would hang out, so it gets shown in the paparazzi photos when they are arrested for something or have a wardrobe malfunction or whatever the famous for being famous crowd are doing these days.
You just need to get Sheldon to wear it on Big Bang Theory.
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I wonder if there'd be a way to "incentivize" 3PPs like Green Ronin, Goodman Games, NECROMANCER GAMES, etc. to return to publishing Pathfinder stuff.
For all intents and purposes Necromancer Games is making Pathfinder products. Since Necromancer is unlikely to put out any further products any time soon, those Necromancer employees who do continue to write modules have formed Frog God Games and are converting the entirety of the Sleeping Tzar line over to Pathfinder.
I agree with Steve Geddes above. Like it or not, Pathfinder is a hefty tome and probably a little intimidating to new players, 4e gamers or not. A Pathfinder fast play adventure with simplified rules would be a great introduction to Pathfinder that doesn't require a person to read a 500 page tome. Like it or not, a huge market is coming up in age every day and 4e is tapping that with their Essentials line. Pathfinder is not. A fastplay adventure would be a great start and probably not a terribly huge investment for the Paizo staff. You could even use an existing adventure, such as the Into the Woods-style adventure that they included in the box of goodies or one of the free PDFs such as Hollow's Last Hope.I don't know a single game group that plays only one system, from grognards to teenaged players, a wider and wider number of games seem to being played.We talked about this in our last podcast (Flagons & Dragons). The book is a beast, and I'd feel bad dropping that on some new players foot.
If I had the money, I'd probably give 4E another shot. As we discussed, it's a different game, not necessarily a bad game. Back when 4E was announced I felt blindsided and generally disenfranchised by WoTC. I didn't even give the game a chance. Paizo's Pathfinder was a no-brainer at the time.
I keep hearing about this 4E/Pathfinder war, but haven't seen evidence of it in our local area. Our group at least plays a number of systems, both RPGs and wargames.
But getting new players... people who have no connection to gaming... into the hobby? WoTC may have an edge at the moment. I'd love to see some stripped down adventure/rules set. Not that I can't do that on my own, but it'd be nice to hand the new players something that wouldn't scare them off.
We'll be talking about new players and such in our next podcast. Personally, when I'm introducing new players to D&D or Pathfinder, I give...
Flagons & Dragons is on of those Podcast I was refering too. Really enjoying listening to you guys ranbling. Can't wait for the next ep. Might I suggest that you get your self a bottle of Fuller's London Pride.
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Get a really really cool Pathfinder shirt made, then get someone to wear it to some place that Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohen or Kim Kardasian (sp?) or someone would hang out, so it gets shown in the paparazzi photos when they are arrested for something or have a wardrobe malfunction or whatever the famous for being famous crowd are doing these days.You just need to get Sheldon to wear it on Big Bang Theory.
Genius.
How's Pathfinder doin' in Europe? I've also seen a few Aussies on the boards.
That's hard to answer for me. I haven't been on german RP Cons in years and don't have that much contact to "roleplaying circles" outside my circle of friends and cogamers.
And I don't like the people who do the german translation of Pathfinder.So I get my PF things per subscription or amazon, depending on how important a pdf is to me (very much so with the hardcover books, less so with the modules, etc).
I really don't have much contact to german pathfinder gamers - But I got my friends to play with me and one got his own copy of the core rules and the APG.
What could be done in my opinion to get PF better known? Ask the german/european licence guys to copy paizos conditions - to offer subscribitions with free pdfs and a discount etc.
At the moment, I pay about the same amount of money for my subscriptions (or english books at amazon) as for the german books - and I get a free pdf, get them earlier, got more products available etc pp. Just because I think my english good enough for using english gaming materials.
So I really would like to see some more aggressive "recruiting" of german / european gamers (for the society, too, because I really would like to play in it but I'm not experienced enough with D&D/D20 systems so start a society play as DM).