I'm currently in a campaign which I will leave nameless(no spoilers please, folks that know what I'm talking about) that has the enemies wearing magical items which do not detect as evil, BUT they're made of human flesh. For the most part the items are the best loot we've seen as far as sell value is concerned, but I'm think it's unfair to the party to start destroying them. The DM has not made an issue of it, likely for the same reason.
My question is... Is there a way to get the value for these items without selling them back into the general populace, or do you just ignore the vendor who would buy items made of human flesh for resale?
Sure, and the DM has a few options at his disposal. For instance, a good-aligned church might reward adventurers for ridding evil and its items from getting into wrong hands, so handing them over to a temple of some kind might work. Otherwise, any non-paladin in the party can do the selling incognito with merchants who don't ask questions (it'd be a good idea to distract said paladin with some task for the time being). Either way, that was just off the top, and really thinking about it might net you some better ideas, but the point is to be a bit indirect.
Tough call, talk to the DM about "selling" these unholy articles to a good church to destroy or protect [plot device later]. That allows the paladin to stand on the high ground with out sticking it to the whole party.
Or you could ask for a XP bonus for destroying evil magic items.
**** the party! That's what's being a Paladin's all about. :D
Seriously, though, I HATED those stupid things. No one in our party was willing to wear them, and half the party were uncomfortable doing business with the sort of person who would buy such an item (i.e. they were good aligned.) They ended up going in a trunk and forgotten.
We tried to let the GM let us sell them to a church or something to be destroyed, but he wouldn't go for it.
Tip for campaign writers: Don't included significant amounts of treasure, (we found several of these items, and some of them were pretty gnarly for the level we were at), that a good-aligned party can't/won't use or sell. At least with out putting a Evil Only warning on the cover. What's more fun is: the first time we tried this campaign, it fell flat. The party was mostly neutral/borderline evil and the hook for the first encounter was basically save the town out of the goodness of your hearts. All but one of the party quietly snuck away.
I'm currently in a campaign which I will leave nameless(no spoilers please, folks that know what I'm talking about) that has the enemies wearing magical items which do not detect as evil, BUT they're made of human flesh. For the most part the items are the best loot we've seen as far as sell value is concerned, but I'm think it's unfair to the party to start destroying them. The DM has not made an issue of it, likely for the same reason.
My question is... Is there a way to get the value for these items without selling them back into the general populace, or do you just ignore the vendor who would buy items made of human flesh for resale?
Ask if there's some way to 'redeem' the items, a la Book of Exalted Deeds.
Also, look at the mage's hand thingamajig. Not evil, but it's a mummified hand on a string right out of the core rules.
Perhaps there's some way to salvage the magical power in the items so you can create items that are more aesthetically pleasing than cadaver parts, the way an artificer used to do it in 3.5?
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My LG fighter stole those items out of the wizard's backpack during the night and hid them in the house which we burnt down in the morning. Still getting flack about that and we're now in the 5th book but I didn't see any way around it. That stuff was just wrong. I don't see how a paladin could rationalize selling those items on the open market. At the least, he should give them to his church for disposal which should get him some sort of in-game benefit, a boon or xp or a good magic item of some sort.
Mr. Fishy has a kender scalp cap interested in purchasing it KenderKin?
It's not evil Mr. Fishy swears.
Not seeing the problem as not evil or whatever could be anything...
I would wear one as a paladin
"I wear this so that the victims of evil though gone are not forgotten.""It is a symbol or respect for the dead."
Not these things. These things are VILE.
Thank you for the replies and the laughs, I think I will try the church/reward route. I had thought about the artificer/enchanter style of magic disenchanting/re-enchanting, but neither really apply in OUR Pathfinder game.
Like I said, the DM isn't making an issue out of it so much as I am. I've had CG Fighters who wouldn't resell these things, I can't fathom why my LG Paladin would allow it.
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Not these things. These things are VILE.Not seeing the problem as not evil or whatever could be anything...
I would wear one as a paladin
"I wear this so that the victims of evil though gone are not forgotten.""It is a symbol or respect for the dead."
Okay, I've seen this sort of nonsense before, in what manner are they vile? We need more definition than that.
Long story short: A game was completely destroyed because one NPC did "something vile" and, even though the NPC was trying to make up for it by helping people, the PCs split between protecting the NPC and killing it.
Transfer the magic to another item, one without any magical properties, shouldn't really cost the party anything, at most I'd charge the party 10% of the item cost to transfer it to a mundane item.
I may also request this as an option since our Rogue has taken to wearing one of said items and has been blaming particularly deviant behavior on said item. A nice, happy hat of disguise I think, lol.
Okay, I've seen this sort of nonsense before, in what manner are they vile? We need more definition than that.
Not these things. These things are VILE.
They're made of HUMAN... FLESH. Most civilized folks don't take kindly to the wearing or eating of sentient beings. XD
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Transfer the magic to another item, one without any magical properties, shouldn't really cost the party anything, at most I'd charge the party 10% of the item cost to transfer it to a mundane item.I may also request this as an option since our Rogue has taken to wearing one of said items and has been blaming particularly deviant behavior on said item. A nice, happy hat of disguise I think, lol.
They're made of HUMAN... FLESH. Most civilized folks don't take kindly to the wearing or eating of sentient beings. XDOkay, I've seen this sort of nonsense before, in what manner are they vile? We need more definition than that.
Not these things. These things are VILE.
Never heard of an ear necklace? Fairly commonplace all things told, they are trophies of enemies slain in battle normally. I don't think Orcs would really care. Heck, they might even have respect for someone who had claimed that many human trophies.
Never heard of an ear necklace? Fairly commonplace all things told, they are trophies of enemies slain in battle normally. I don't think Orcs would really care. Heck, they might even have respect for someone who had claimed that many human trophies.
Orcs are for our purposes a monster, despite being capable of civilization. Making body part necklaces is not a mentally well-adjusted individual, I'm almost certain it's the sign of a sociopath of some sort, LOL. Are you really trying to say that it's OKAY to behave like Hannibal Lecter in a "good" party? Seriously?
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Never heard of an ear necklace? Fairly commonplace all things told, they are trophies of enemies slain in battle normally. I don't think Orcs would really care. Heck, they might even have respect for someone who had claimed that many human trophies.Orcs are for our purposes a monster, despite being capable of civilization. Making body part necklaces is not a mentally well-adjusted individual, I'm almost certain it's the sign of a sociopath of some sort, LOL. Are you really trying to say that it's OKAY to behave like Hannibal Lecter in a "good" party? Seriously?
Now I didn't say that, besides you don't need to eat people when making a necklace of ears, they are simply vanquished foes. For all you know those could have been antipaladin and evil cleric ears. Which would make it a very good, if grisly, trophy for good-aligned, if somewhat sociopathic, heroes. Most adventurers have some degree of psychological flaws anyway. What drives a person to actively leap into harms way?
Remember Batman is considered a hero, and he isn't even a functional human being psychologically speaking. Punisher would have been a better example, only he isn't as beholden to trophies as Batman appears to be. Then again, some of Batman's trophies are pretty grisly as well, Jason Todd's Robin costume, the one he died in....blech.
Now I didn't say that, besides you don't need to eat people when making a necklace of ears, they are simply vanquished foes. ...
FWIW, the taking of trophy body parts is considered a war crime under the Geneva and Hague conventions, with particularly egregious violations being eligible for the death penalty under the UCMJ for US forces. So you COULD argue that at least teh L side of the LG would object.
And there is difference between a trophy and a memento.
I think I know which adventure this is. IMC, the cleric of Zon Kuthon sold these things behind the two Paladins' backs and then later divvied up the money. I think he didn't find enough buyers for the vast quantity of them, so he had to go to Kaer Maga to unload some of them.
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Now I didn't say that, besides you don't need to eat people when making a necklace of ears, they are simply vanquished foes. ...FWIW, the taking of trophy body parts is considered a war crime under the Geneva and Hague conventions, with particularly egregious violations being eligible for the death penalty under the UCMJ for US forces. So you COULD argue that at least teh L side of the LG would object.
And there is difference between a trophy and a memento.
This is Pathfinder. The Geneva Convention has never even been heard of. This sort of behavior predates the Geneva Convention by several thousand years. I'm not saying it's right or wrong under modern morality, that's not the point I'm making (yes I'm well-aware that it's wrong in modern morality) I'm saying that it isn't unheard of.
Seeing as the item is not evil but just made from human flesh I don't see a problem. Just because it's made with human flesh doesn't mean it's evil. I mean an urn full of ashes of powerful priest of a good diety which sheds a circle of protection for evil be any more evil than ring made from braided flesh of the same deceased priest.
On the flip side a say bracer made of human flesh from the sacrifice of a innocent child allowing Death Knell to automatically trigger when every kill another being would definitely be an evil item and radiate that.
So if Mr. Fishy started wearing a Human skin jacket people would be cool with that? Sweet!
Another note on composition: what about dragonhide? Dragons are certainly sentient. Many are smarter and/or wiser than humans, including PCs. Would that also be a problem? Some sentient creatures could be used to make hide armor, for that matter.
It's a good role-playing opportunity you've got here, so let us know how it works out!
So if Mr. Fishy started wearing a Human skin jacket people would be cool with that? Sweet!Depends on the culture, is that common?
Would it be understood or mis-understood?
And doing crap to be shocking versus doing something based on some silly idea the DM had is totally different....
So you endore a human skin armband? Mr. Fishy doesn't have arms you insenitive airbreather!
I am in the party with good Mister Moyer, So far we have hand waved it a little bit on behalf of his paladin as it is not obvious that the leather in question came from a human. I as the one who identified it refused to wear it, but made the consession that short term we might need to keep it around to facilitate a sting operation on our enemy. I am for the record chaotic good and view it as distasteful, but cant see putting the living at risk for the dead. I am also starting to suspect that it is having an adverse effect on the character who is carrying it. So I am working the angle to prove to him that he is going down a bad path and get him to give up the evil thing. Ideally since I am a strong diplomat I am going to try and find a place that will take them off our hands as a museum curiosity, or a church that wants to have them destroyed and can work towards getting them off the street while not costing the party the potential sell value of the items. I too sometime lament that there isnt a system for salvaging that bypass the buy/sell auction house dynamic.
So you endore a human skin armband? Mr. Fishy doesn't have arms you insenitive airbreather!So if Mr. Fishy started wearing a Human skin jacket people would be cool with that? Sweet!Depends on the culture, is that common?
Would it be understood or mis-understood?
And doing crap to be shocking versus doing something based on some silly idea the DM had is totally different....
My Druid has fish-skeleton earings.
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For those not in the know, these "vile" things are cult objects of the religious faction of Norgorber's curch that focuses on his aspect as a god of murder. They are basically unholy skin masks made by death cultists that aid in ritual killing.
Yep, lovely.
Norgorber's cult is forbidden in most civilized regions of Golarion, except Absalom and some evil-aligned locales and even there the death cult side is never openly practiced.
Nevermind being illegal, people die just to become material for the masks. It's not a question of the ethics of using skin from sentient beings, but the unholy and immoral make of them.
There'd be practially no one willing to buy these things and even upon locating someone, most good characters would rather burn the masks than risk them ending back to the cult or in the hands of someone willing to use them.
Fortunately for our group the DM decided that upon our locating of masks the local law enforcement was more than willing, as in "refrain from removing evidence from the scene", to accept them after we had cleansed the evil cult and they were let in on the crime scene. He was wise enough to do that rather than see the paladin and barbarian bicker over needs vs. ethics of the newfound vile loot.
Never heard of an ear necklace? Fairly commonplace all things told, they are trophies of enemies slain in battle normally. I don't think Orcs would really care. Heck, they might even have respect for someone who had claimed that many human trophies.Transfer the magic to another item, one without any magical properties, shouldn't really cost the party anything, at most I'd charge the party 10% of the item cost to transfer it to a mundane item.I may also request this as an option since our Rogue has taken to wearing one of said items and has been blaming particularly deviant behavior on said item. A nice, happy hat of disguise I think, lol.
They're made of HUMAN... FLESH. Most civilized folks don't take kindly to the wearing or eating of sentient beings. XDOkay, I've seen this sort of nonsense before, in what manner are they vile? We need more definition than that.
Not these things. These things are VILE.
I am willing to cede that not ALL trophies made of human flesh are universally wrong, if you are willing to cede that tooling around a civilized region in a magical "Buffalo Bill" suit is. Universally Wrong"
Edit:
Stuff
Oh, sure, just give it all away. :P I was trying to respect the OP intent of not revealing spoilers, but the way this discussion was headed, it was probably inevitable.
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Never heard of an ear necklace? Fairly commonplace all things told, they are trophies of enemies slain in battle normally. I don't think Orcs would really care. Heck, they might even have respect for someone who had claimed that many human trophies.
Orcs are for our purposes a monster, despite being capable of civilization. Making body part necklaces is not a mentally well-adjusted individual, I'm almost certain it's the sign of a sociopath of some sort, LOL. Are you really trying to say that it's OKAY to behave like Hannibal Lecter in a "good" party? Seriously?
It's just like playing conkers.
"Hey! I beat a sixty-sixer!"
I'm currently in a campaign which I will leave nameless(no spoilers please, folks that know what I'm talking about) that has the enemies wearing magical items which do not detect as evil, BUT they're made of human flesh. For the most part the items are the best loot we've seen as far as sell value is concerned, but I'm think it's unfair to the party to start destroying them. The DM has not made an issue of it, likely for the same reason.
My question is... Is there a way to get the value for these items without selling them back into the general populace, or do you just ignore the vendor who would buy items made of human flesh for resale?
I think a paladin would destroy them to lay the souls to rest with a prayer to his deity.
That's it.
If your DM is not a complete numpty he will reward your role-playing. If he tells you that you are throwing away good loot and it's your problem, you could always point out that as you are playing ball by following the plot, he can play ball by not punishing you for being good guys.
Another option might be that if you have a crafting-based character they could drain off the magic from the items to 'recycle' it into stuff you can use, and then destroy the remains. There are a lot of alternatives, but most come down to the DM not being a douche.
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Another option might be that if you have a crafting-based character they could drain off the magic from the items to 'recycle' it into stuff you can use, and then destroy the remains. There are a lot of alternatives, but most come down to the DM not being a douche.
Throw them in a spelljamming helm, and sail away to a new game!
TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!
I say burn em.
Let's say your character finds a glove made from the skin of someone who died of blood loss, but it grants "vampire touch". I would be inclined to let the paladin of the party take it to destroy, but give up their share of monetary treasure.
Dragons, on the other hand, might wear magic items made from parts of their ancesters.
If I were the DM I'd give the party XP for destroying masks such as these. So the choice is cash or XP. Or if using the Hero Point system in the APG I'd award hero point because destroying the masks is the heroic thing to do.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Just convince your DM to keep a track of the value of the nasty loot that you're destroying. When the value reaches 120,630 gp your god sez "Dude, awesome work!" and spontaneously transforms a nearby mundane sword into an holy avenger.
A paladin walks into a bar, loaded with loot from adventuring, and declares to his comrades: "Now for the greatest pleasures a tavern can host!"
"B-but you're a paladin!" they excalaim, "wine might be passable, but women and debauchery?"
The paladin looks puzzled: "Debauchery? No, I meant the Space Invaders machine ..."
If an item is not detecting as evil, barring magics that mess with that detection, it's not evil. It may be socially unacceptable, ritually taboo, or just plain icky, but that's not the same as evil.
Does a dagger used as a murder weapon radiate evil? What about a gold coin used to pay for some evil deed? Does it take multiple murders or evil deeds before the item in question starts radiating evilness, or is one good to go? And if all it takes is one, how does a paladin walk into any old city without freaking out about who evil all of it is?
I think it's a good idea in general to separate "Detect Evil" from "Detect Tref," with tref here being all the dirty, unclean, abhorrent things that are religious taboos but aren't actually evil in and of themselves. "Don't eat pork" may be a taboo but didn't actually make it onto the Ten Commandments.
Now, let's say we've got a Hand of the Mage. It's made from the hand of an elven wizard. Let's say an elven wizard is murdered for his hands which are then made into grisly magic items. Then lets say his friends bring him back to life with True Resurrection which incidentally gives him a new set of hands and they go off and deal with the murderers and incidentally recover one of the elf's former hands which has now been enchanted into a Hand of the Mage.
Now, the paladin can flip out and cry "Unclean!" as much as he wants, but morally this hand should reasonably belong to the elf it was from, and if he decides he wants to wear it and use it himself, give it to his alma mater, put it on the mantelpiece, or anything else, it should be his business, and about the only input the paladin should have on the matter is whether the mummified severed hand is currently seething with the power of some dark and evil god. If it's not, then it's not.
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I am willing to cede that not ALL trophies made of human flesh are universally wrong, if you are willing to cede that tooling around a civilized region in a magical "Buffalo Bill" suit is. Universally Wrong"
Edit:
StuffOh, sure, just give it all away. :P I was trying to respect the OP intent of not revealing spoilers, but the way this discussion was headed, it was probably inevitable.
Something like that you don't wear to town unless you are trying to intimidate the crap out of said town's populace.
Seeing as the item is not evil but just made from human flesh I don't see a problem.
Say what do these masks do?
Anyone have stats on this item?
I am curious?Curiosity killed the Kender!
Well, some of them fill the wearer's mind with thoughts of such vileness that it costs the wearer 1 Charisma point.
EDIT: Playing Neutral / Self Preservationist alignment
Now, let's say we've got a Hand of the Mage.
...THANK YOU. I've been thinking that since I read the OP. :P
Honestly,
I've always thought 'hand of the mage' was at least a gray item. I would not expect a paladin to wear one, on general principles, no matter who's hand it was (unless it was his own, but it would still be kind of odd on a paladin). Mainly because it's the mummified hand of an elven wizard, and you never know if that wizard willed his hand to be used or not.
A paladin should never use a magic item that was made via human sacrifice, especially if an evil cult/religion made it, whether it radiates evil or not.
A holy relic, such as a saint's knuckle bone, or toe would I think, be slightly different. Mainly because it's a consecrated item taken from a high cleric/paladin of his church. The cleric or paladin has given himself to the church, body and soul, and after his death, his body is granted the power to continue his good works. On the other hand, such a relic would radiate a palpable aura of good. I would think a Paladin, at the least, would never use anything that was made from a humanoid unless it was a holy relic that radiated good (and from his own church to boot).
As to the other good characters, that's a RP thing. I'd expect good characters to find using such things abhorrent (and I'd probably start watching for other activity that would move them toward nuetral if they wanted to use them). Neutral characters I can see not having an issue using them, although lawful ones might object if they were illegal (more than likely).
As to the question about dragons, traditionally, in D&D, good dragons kill evil dragons, or reward to have it done. Good guys wear evil dragonhide, and evil guys wear good dragonhide. A paladin of Bahamut would be worshipping his god by wearing black dragon hide armor. On the other hand, a paladin of a god that abhored the taking of sentient life except in self defense would probably fail for wearing any dragonhide. Basically, it comes down to the god the paladin worships. Same with the good characters and clerics and so on.
Different worlds, of course, have different god makeups, so you have to adjust for each world. Anyone playing a Paladin really should sit down with the GM before making the character and ask about how that GM expects their Paladin to behave.
Another note on composition: what about dragonhide? Dragons are certainly sentient. Many are smarter and/or wiser than humans, including PCs. Would that also be a problem? Some sentient creatures could be used to make hide armor, for that matter.
Sadly, I think sentient 'beasts'(dragons, griffins, manticores, Mr. Fishy, etc.) fall under the hypocracy that is mankind "The Hunter", basically seen universally as sport. However walking about a dragon/lizard society in dragon hide is probably viewed just as poorly.
It's a good role-playing opportunity you've got here, so let us know how it works out!
It'll be a week and a half before this group plays again, but I will do my best to let you know what our outcome is.
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I consider using sentient creature parts fair game under these circumstance: it was a part of a bad guy that was taken from him unwillingly, then later consecrated, blessed, and hallowed or it was the part of a member of my character's church who gave it up willingly. Though I'm still going to be squicked out every second I have it in my possession.
I'm thinking of something I read long ago in the DuckTales tv series writers bible....
Imagine, if you will, a Thanksgiving day dinner scene. Uncle Scrooge, Donald, Huey, Dewey and Louis have just sat down at the table when Mrs. Beakley walks in with a platter holding a huge roast turkey!
Now, there are two ways to deal with this: Treat it as utterly mundane, or actually think about it, in which case it becomes a scene of ghoulish horror.
The DuckTales approach is to treat this as totally mundane. Huey, Dewey and Louis are not ducks but children who happen to be drawn as ducks.
This same sort of suspension of disbelief needs to be done in fantasy land, otherwise the first time you have the adventurers encounter a dryad she should be utterly freaking out about the wizard's wooden staff, the ranger's wooden arrows, the clerics cheap wooden holy symbol, and indeed, every bit of vegetable matter on the party. Walk up to a dryad while eating a bag of popcorn. My gods! You horrible monster! Each and every one of those was a baby cornstalk!
Or you can not really think about it and treat it as completely mundane. The dryad is a wood nymph but she's basically a ditzy girl who lives in a magic tree so just run her as that and you'll have less trouble.
I'm thinking of something I read long ago in the DuckTales tv series writers bible....
Imagine, if you will, a Thanksgiving day dinner scene. Uncle Scrooge, Donald, Huey, Dewey and Louis have just sat down at the table when Mrs. Beakley walks in with a platter holding a huge roast turkey!
Now, there are two ways to deal with this: Treat it as utterly mundane, or actually think about it, in which case it becomes a scene of ghoulish horror.
The DuckTales approach is to treat this as totally mundane. Huey, Dewey and Louis are not ducks but children who happen to be drawn as ducks.
That's made of AWESOME!
Ducks and Turkeys have racial hatred, WHO KNEW?! (lol, kidding)
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**** the party! That's what's being a Paladin's all about. :D
Seriously, though, I HATED those stupid things. No one in our party was willing to wear them, and half the party were uncomfortable doing business with the sort of person who would buy such an item (i.e. they were good aligned.) They ended up going in a trunk and forgotten.
We tried to let the GM let us sell them to a church or something to be destroyed, but he wouldn't go for it.
Interestingly, the thing your GM 'wouldn't go for' was the solution recommended on the boards by either JJ or Pett (can't remember which).
This magic item has come up several times and most GMs seem to take the same approach - good churches will give you a reward if you give them the item so that they can destroy it in a sacred ritual which lays the souls involved to rest.
good churches will give you a reward if you give them the item so that they can destroy it in a sacred ritual which lays the souls involved to rest.
If souls are involved it should definitely read as Evil.