Because otherwise wizards could destroy items left and right, as they took full damage from spells every time.
Full damage as in "full rolled" damage, right?
So what ... ?
Is there anyone out there *really* playing the game and not catching tents, chairs, tables, maps, etc "on fire" when their wizards are blowing fireballs all over the place?
That stuff is freakin' window dressing ...
Is there anyone making people roll for their clothing? Their individual weapons and items carried? If so .... that's just an ass-hat move. It's one thing if someone is *pointedly* carrying something volatile and that must be protected (in that case it *should* be checked as that's part of the encounter or whatever), but just doing it ... because items are entitled to a check - that's crap. It's niggling details for NO turn around. It's intentionally stymieing the player's enjoyment, efforts and likely fun ... for the purpose of adhering to the almighty RAW.
"Bow ... bow down before the might of the tome of the words of wisdom. Bend your head down in exultation of the RAW. Listen and obey my brothers and sister! RAW is the will and the way! RAW owns all!! Give yourself over the the RAW! It is in the trusting and knowing hands of the RAW that we must trust for the RAW will save us. The RAW will deliver us, and protect us from all evils of common sense. Bow ... bow down before the RAW and be saved!!!"
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Because otherwise wizards could destroy items left and right, as they took full damage from spells every time.Full damage as in "full rolled" damage, right?
So what ... ?
Is there anyone out there *really* playing the game and not catching tents, chairs, tables, maps, etc "on fire" when their wizards are blowing fireballs all over the place?
That stuff is freakin' window dressing ...
Is there anyone making people roll for their clothing? Their individual weapons and items carried? If so .... that's just an ass-hat move. It's one thing if someone is *pointedly* carrying something volatile and that must be protected (in that case it *should* be checked as that's part of the encounter or whatever), but just doing it ... because items are entitled to a check - that's crap. It's niggling details for NO turn around. It's intentionally stymieing the player's enjoyment, efforts and likely fun ... for the purpose of adhering to the almighty RAW.
"Bow ... bow down before the might of the tome of the words of wisdom. Bend your head down in exultation of the RAW. Listen and obey my brothers and sister! RAW is the will and the way! RAW owns all!! Give yourself over the the RAW! It is in the trusting and knowing hands of the RAW that we must trust for the RAW will save us. The RAW will deliver us, and protect us from all evils of common sense. Bow ... bow down before the RAW and be saved!!!"
If you're going to go into overblown hyperbole, it might be worth actually reading the post you're whining about. This applies to unattended magic items. It does not apply to every table and chair. It does not apply to worn clothing or carried items as they're covered by the person's save. But, feel free to keep knocking those strawmen down. You're really convincing people to your cause.
Explain this to me...
An enemy has been recently blinded, is lying prone, under the effects of a silence spell, and ambushed by an invisible (and undetected) assailant casting a fireball...
...why, in the name of ALL that is fantastical, imaginative, and even REMOTELY reasonable does the target have the same capacity to half the damage as well as a well informed target would? We are talking about reflex right? REflex is a REsponse.
Our GM hypothesized that there is a supreme calculation involving many factors which have been carefully considered, suggesting this anomaly was actually a deliberate response to balance out some other factor within the game.
That's crap.
If fireballs and lightning bolts are OP, then fix them.
Isn't spell resistance enough? Speaking of spell resistance...what a crock! The CRB relates SR to "armor class vs. spells". That's freakin' awesome. Can wizards get saves vs. sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face?! Arrrgh.. that's a different post...
The only factors that have anything to do with your set up regarding the chucked fireball - none. That a fireball can be CAST is more fantastical than that some one can roll with the effect to reduce the damage. Tell the GM that you really should just be a crispy critter if you ever come upon the same situation you just set out. I look forward to reading this on an obituary / GM Kill Thread some time.
SR used to be a percentage-based Magic Resistance that, dependent upon the caster level hitting it varied in strength or weakness. A mind flayer had about an 80% magic resistance against spells cast by - oh, blind stab in the dark - let us say an 11th level caster. Higher level casters reduced this value by a certain percentage per level over 11th, while lower level casters had to deal with a correspondingly increased magic resistance. There were NO spells that could bypass magic resistance - it could even let you waltz through a wall of force or the like as if it were not there. Very, very VERY late in 2e there were a few "unique" spells in the various Forgotten Realms products that gave you a boost in your chance of penetrating magic resistance.
What was worse were the critters that had magic resistance that did not care about the 'incoming' caster level - drow as a primary example, although not the only one . If you think spell resistance sucks, get a load of old-school MR. Drow started at 50% and it just ... kept ... going ... up. Against high-level Drow your precious wizard had to stab her to death with his +1 dagger.
Unattended non-magical items always take damage. They have hardness and hit point ratings - combined with the damage reduction that energy attacks generally apply when dealing damage to objects translates into unattended objects not always being so easy to obliterate. Unattended magical items get a saving throw because they are magical.
Frankly this sounds more like some one just starting to play a wizard.
At least you recognized it as hyperbole (ie: never meant to be taken literally), so you've got that going for you.
Also note the tone of the post anyway - it's NOT about convincing anyone to take sides.
It's about playing the game YOUR way and letting this particular distinction drift off into the archives ...
:shrugs:
Besides, unattended or not - it's still an item. if it's attended, the PC makes the save for it using his/her saves or those of the item (which ever is better for the item), no?
The issue isn't really with items under the sphere of control of PC's - it's about making rolls for no good reason.
Honestly, though - who cares at this point? I'm only responding to point out I'm NOT making straw men or interested in doing so.
I'm also significantly MORE not interested (so, so, SO NOT INTERESTED) in playing w/someone trying to roll for objects every time he/she gets a chance. It's not *my* kind of fun, so if anything the last comment was just a backhand at considering that style of thing *fun* in any sense of the word. I don't dig that. I will never dig that, and I will always find it counter productive to gaming. It's not a "straw man" thought at all - it's articulating (through hyperbole) just how adamantly I stand at odds with that outlook and mentality.
By all means, if *you* dig it - go for it. Again - reiterating the fact that I left it as fully "ok for others, but not, not, NEVER ok for me" (thus the use of hyperbole - for emphasizing MY distaste for it - NOT for making "straw men" in the slightest).
Edit: just realized the timing of MY post and the one from Mordred ... my post has NOTHING to do with his. So, my bad on that. I can get where the nutty response to me were coming from. I still stand behind "pure idiocy" in tone and tenor to allow a REFLEX save to a damn object. Mod it to a Fort save and I have *no* problem what so ever (it's actually what I do for my games anyway). Note ... I *also* do not track Hardness and HP for all the dang objects in range of the AoE, either. If it makes sense to burn it - it burns. End of story ... I'm not a tic-trackin' GM for the nonsense that can be tracked and ticked in this system. There's too much of it, and I find it adds NOTHING to the gaming experience to do it other than more work for me as the GM. So ... fiat-city for me on that front.
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Ok, so in a world with deities making appearances, dragons flying despite physics and characters being swallowed whole, the idea of LUCK being part of a saving throw isn't tolerable?
In times gone by, when the saves were by attack type and not by save type, it was assumed classes saved differently.
Wizard vs. Fireball save = unweaving the spell a little.
Fighter = Toughing it out.
Rogue = Dodging curling up, etc
Cleric = Divine intervention, counterprayer, etc.
And yes, inanimate items get a save even if they're unattended.
In the AD&D DMG, Gygax made the argument that a naked guy chained to a rock still got a save vs the fireball.
Maybe that Reflex/Will/Fortitude save is that luck.
"Luckily he was already in the fetal position."
"Luckily the spell didn't heat evenly."
"Luckily Cayden was watching over him that day."
The first time I have a player argue that he can target x (a sleeping target, blinded/prone/deafened etc.) then that character will find karma's a b&%~&.
"Well you're attacked by a mage. The fireball goes off, Bill you get a reflex save, Ted you take full damage."
"What? Why?"
"Well you're in the spell's effect, and you argued successfully last month that a sleeping character doesn't get a save. Mary, you get toasted too."
"Way to go Ted! I told you it was a dumb idea!"
there's always a chance the energy washes over you with out doing more than scuffing your clothes.
maybe they were grounded out and took no damage from electricity, or reacted all batman-like and ducked threw the flames.
short of a grenade being implanted in someone (think cell phone bomb from Dark Knight) there is no way they cant "get lucky" and maybe not get hurt.
fun fact I had a druid with an awakened animal companion, long story short I said
eh roll percentiles cuz Im feeling frisky" he got 00 so I made the bird insane and believed it was the incarnate of Cthulu..The bird once swallowed a delayed fireball and flew away to prove how powerful he was....
I said that was max damage, but anything outside of inside someone should ALWAYS allow a reflex save with the appropriate minuses to the save for this case.
Prone he is at a -4.
Blinded he is flat footed (Which apparently doesnt effect reflex) but it does give you an additional penalty to dex. Silence would mean it was impossible to hear your spell so I would tack on another -2 to the save just because
as for the Coup De Grace stand point you can do that with spells, but with rays and stuff not area of effect, thats why it isnt considered one.
Why would he get a save?Typical case for NOT allowing a save to be made.
Could you explain how a unattended magic item gets a REF save against a fireball?
It is less aware and less mobile.-James
Were does it say they get a saving throw?
------------------------------------------------------In fact: page 216 - Saving Throws
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throw only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object used the creatures's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic items's saving throw bonus are each equal to 2+ 1/2 the items's caster level.
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Magic items get saving throws because there magic. Non-Magic Object get saving throws if being handled by a creature that gets a saving throw. Non-Magic objects get saving throw if they are an exception to the rule, listed in the Spells description for that particular spell.
So... you've just proved that magical items get saving throws. Congratulations, you've proved the point referenced in the post you cited.
It doesn't explain why the dagger +1 laying there gets a reflex saving throw and the guy laying next to it shouldn't.
what he said.
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I think the reflex save could include being lucky enough to be in a area where the fireball isn't so intense. It's an explosion so maybe it's not equally effective in all parts of the area... some parts being more intensive than others and the reflex save represents that you were in a less intense part of the fireball.
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I should note, I misspoke in my 9:117 post. 'inanimate objects' don't always get a save, simply magical ones did.
Though in AD&D all inanimate objects got a save, even if the numbers were impossibly high (I think a glass vial got a save vs Crushing Blow of like needing to roll a 23 or something)
So... you've just proved that magical items get saving throws. Congratulations, you've proved the point referenced in the post you cited.
It doesn't explain why the dagger +1 laying there gets a reflex saving throw and the guy laying next to it shouldn't.
Sure it does..... Is Magic :) Magic is the Reason :) Magic is the How, Why, When, Where :). Never said it was logical, just that it was Magic.
i believe /some/ objects should get saves like that really important document but if you a dm rolling to see how the landscape is affected then your a crappy dm with no creativity also the "being in a part of the fireball thats less hot" isn't reflex save its damage dealt
Sure it does..... Is Magic :) Magic is the Reason :) Magic is the How, Why, When, Where :). Never said it was logical, just that it was Magic.So... you've just proved that magical items get saving throws. Congratulations, you've proved the point referenced in the post you cited.
It doesn't explain why the dagger +1 laying there gets a reflex saving throw and the guy laying next to it shouldn't.
I think everything should get an attack roll or a magic save roll.
If you read up further, you will see that i had subjected changing the Reflex save to a Fortitude save. I do think that all creatures should get a save vs magic ((well unless an attack roll is used to hit them)), but which kind of save, Fort, Reflex, Mental, can change due to circumstances. Mainly the Reflex being turned into Fortitude, if a creature is unable to move.
agree, or will in some cases. this lets you do things like tie up the rogue then cast fireball to give him a s@&+ty save with no evasion. agree
there's always a chance the energy washes over you with out doing more than scuffing your clothes.
maybe they were grounded out and took no damage from electricity, or reacted all batman-like and ducked threw the flames.
short of a grenade being implanted in someone (think cell phone bomb from Dark Knight) there is no way they cant "get lucky" and maybe not get hurt.
There is always a way to get lucky. That's why we call it luck. We have no idea how they survived something or did something at the last second that saved them. It was luck. Pure luck. And heroes have a way of being lucky. The luck of the gods, Dumb Luck, etc.
I stopped playing for realism long ago. Just not possible.
House rules need to be done very carefully as otherwise they are like supplemental rules that WotC would add after the fact... not always thought through.
-James
James, you're my hero. Can I marry you?
If you read up further, you will see that i had subjected changing the Reflex save to a Fortitude save. I do think that all creatures should get a save vs magic ((well unless an attack roll is used to hit them)), but which kind of save, Fort, Reflex, Mental, can change due to circumstances. Mainly the Reflex being turned into Fortitude, if a creature is unable to move.Cool.. So my Dwarven cleric who's REF save was 15 below his FORT & WILL saves would do better to NOT dodge out of the way of the fireball... right?
Look, swapping out saves or denying saves like this is going into house rules. House rules need to be done very carefully as otherwise they are like supplemental rules that WotC would add after the fact... not always thought through.-James
:) was just waiting for someone to post this :)
If your Dwarven cleric wants to forgo his Refex save, sure... he gets none. (( The option to change a Reflex save to Fort is the GM, not the players. As Referee, i might change one to another so you still get a save were you might not get any otherwise.))
If your Dwarven cleric wants to take a sleep potion, or get knocked out. Ya i will change his Reflex to Fortitude, to give him a chance to save vs some kind of magic. But the Evil Human, who wants to cut his neck, will also love the fact that the dwarf is now asleep also.
True, the swapping out would be a house rule, but thats are what GM are for. Making house rules, when you need to change the game in some way. In this case, changing a Reflex save to Fort because the player is Paralyzed and can not move.
In your opinion it is a debacle, however according to RAW it is not.
According to RAW it was the right call.
Do you wish to be the victim of "stackable" ailments. Do you think your DM really wants to bog the game down with having to track PC's accumulation of "stackable" ailments. You are assuming the different saving throws simply represent what their name suggests, where as in fact they are simply a game mechanic to represent a defense against a certain type of attack.
I wouldn't be adverse to being victimized by multiple stacking ailments because it would be a global interpretation. As far as keeping track of stacks and it bogging down the game...well.. Not every GM can be as efficient as ours. Blind and prone. -2, -2. Net loss of 4 on reflex saves. He stands up. -2 on reflex saves. Doesn't seem that complicated.
Not having to take an action is a simple way of saying it does not need not be activated and therefore doesn't apply to orders of actions. It doesn't imply anything regarding the exacting integrity of save mechanics.
You are assuming the different saving throws simply represent what their name suggests, where as in fact they are simply a game mechanic to represent a defense against a certain type of attack.
This statement is awkwardly redundant so I'm not sure what you mean.
A simple mechanic, not a broken mechanic.
Reflex Saves are instant and instinctive reactions to danger, like explosions and stuff that you can't foresee, that used to be the definition of a Reflex Save.
There is no difference between someone casting a spell in front of you (in many cases it won't even point a finger at you) and someone casting that you can't see casting a spell. In both cases you don't know where the fireball or ray is landing, something that do happens when someone attacks you with a club.
BTW, if you are crying for realism a prone character should get a bonus against area spells and explosions, not a penalty.
I couldn't disagree with your statements more completely. Maybe you just worded them wrong. I whack you in the back of the head with a club. I'm invisible, stealthy, and you're blind, deaf and dumb. You take minuses appropriately.
I throw a fireball at the back of your head under the same circumstances. You take no penalty. Nonsensical. I know it's a fantasy game but this seems fundamentally skewed.
You seem to be relating to the fraction of the population that suggests luck has something to do with it. I feel that's a poor explanation, or a way of saying "I really don't know!".
I think you misunderstand what a reflex save really is.
A fort save is your character's natural resistance to things that weaken your health. You get this save no matter what state you are in. A character with a strong body(high con) will do better.
A will save is your character's natural resistance to things that attack your mind. You get this save no matter what state you are in. A character with a strong mind(high wisdom) will do better.
A reflex save is your character's natural resistance to blasts, flying shrapnel, etc. You get this save no matter what. A nimble and aware character(high dex) will do better.
A nimble level 1 rogue with an 18 dex has a +6 reflex save. If that rogue is asleep, they have an effective dex of 0. This gives them a reflex save of -3.
For reference, a +1 sword laying on the ground unattended has a reflex save of +1.