This was the title of a thread on the dnd forums. It got me thinking about the nature of the 4E system, and I think from my experience running it that it has gotten far removed from what a dnd game should sound like, at least during combat. I'm finding that 4E is ruining the sound of my game. At least these days.
This is not intended to be a dig at my players. I blame it on the system.
For example in combat this what a typical player's turn sounds like in my game these days (12th level characters):
Gm: okay you're up what are you doing?
Player: I attack with _____ power. I get to move 3 squares first, so I go here (moves mini). I rolled a 17, so I hit (rolls some dice). I do 26 damage, but add another 5 because last round I made him vulnerable to cold because of my feat. Oh yeah and that gives me combat advantage, so add another 12 for sneak attack. And wait, is the target bloodied? Okay then add another 2 points for that. Next I'm going to shift 5 squares with ____ power as a move action. And I also get to make a stealth check now. Okay so I got a 27 on that, so I probably have concealment.
Gm: okay...
Player: Wait. I have another power that let's me do another attack as a minor action. So I'll do that now. Same target. I have combat advantage again (rolls dice). Okay that's another hit. So that's another 32 damage. Oh yeah and the 5 more for being vulnerable to cold. And the target is also blind until the end of my next turn and slowed.
Gm: okay....
Player: I think, I'm also going to spend my action point. So I'll make another attack.
Gm: don't you need an action to load your crossbow or something.
Player: No I have a feat. I can load a crossbow as a free action.
Gm: Of course you do. I sometimes forget how easy it is to load a heavy crossbow.
Player: Well it is magic. Anyhow, for my action point I think I'm going to use one of my daileys. Okay I hit again. He's still vulnerable to cold, so I still get the extra 5 damage and combat advantage. Except this time I don't get sneak attack damage. Anyhow, it's another 34 damage, same target. Now whenever he moves, he falls prone if he moves more than half his speed. That lasts until the end of the encounter and there's no save.
Gm- So are you finished?
Player: Almost. I get a free basic attack whenever I spend an action point because of the warlord. So I take another shot....
Now normally after a player's turn either the player or the gm would follow up with a quick bit of flavorful narration regarding the player's actions and what just happened. However, after hearing all that as a dm, all I want to do is take a gun to my head.
Yes, it's much better when D&D sounds like
<Player> I full attack
*Rolls a million dice*
<Player> Ok, give me a moment, I need to add in all the little bits and modifiers I have together
<DM> Ok...
<Player>...ok...hold on.
<DM> Any day now.
<Player...ok...carry the...I do x damage."
<DM> Did you remember to add in the DR?
<Player> ...Ok, give me a moment...
<DM> Ugh, whatever. Wizard, your turn.
<Wizard> I summon three monsters. They all full attack.
That's so much more fun and evocative.*
*NO IT'S NOT.
In fact, let's go back to even further editions.
<Player> How the hell does THAC0 work
*Time passes by*
<Player> Ok. I attack
*rolls one die*
<Player>"Ok...so how the hell does THAC0 work."
Further?
<Player> I attack
*Rolls one die*
<DM> Actually this monster has a save or die feature whenever it's attacked that you didn't know about because hah hah old school D&D. Only you don't really get a save. Make a new character.
Hey guess what it seems like D&D is really boring regardless of edition when you pretend nobody ever roleplays it. Well, kinda. At least in 4e you can have fun with tactical combat.
I agree that part of the problem is that every other edition does sound equally bad (or at least the combat parts can and often do), which is why a big part of me is thinking that I need a new game. I'm leaning towards Savage Worlds right now.
Now, I'm not trying to suggest that this is what an entire session sounds like. Certainly the rping aspects sound much different and which system you play has little effect on how those parts sound. Of course those parts can sound even worse if you don't have players who enjoy or aren't good at the rping part of the game. I intentionally focused on the combat portion because I think that is where the problem lies with the "sound" of the current incarnation of the game (and apparently every previous incarnation of the game, but in a somewhat different way).
And for the record the player who was doing all that was probably having a blast. But I'm not the player. I'm the dm. I have to listen to all that and let my beautiful monsters suffer all the "neener neener" consquences. I also happen to be the guy who spends all the hours prepping the game and making it happen, so a better be enjoying myself.
Yes, it's much better when D&D sounds like
<Player> I full attack
*Rolls a million dice*
<Player> Ok, give me a moment, I need to add in all the little bits and modifiers I have together
<DM> Ok...
<Player>...ok...hold on.
<DM> Any day now.
<Player...ok...carry the...I do x damage."
<DM> Did you remember to add in the DR?
<Player> ...Ok, give me a moment...
<DM> Ugh, whatever. Wizard, your turn.
<Wizard> I summon three monsters. They all full attack.That's so much more fun and evocative.*
*NO IT'S NOT.
In fact, let's go back to even further editions.
<Player> How the hell does THAC0 work
*Time passes by*
<Player> Ok. I attack
*rolls one die*
<Player>"Ok...so how the hell does THAC0 work."Further?
<Player> I attack
*Rolls one die*
<DM> Actually this monster has a save or die feature whenever it's attacked that you didn't know about because hah hah old school D&D. Only you don't really get a save. Make a new character.Hey guess what it seems like D&D is really boring regardless of edition when you pretend nobody ever roleplays it. Well, kinda. At least in 4e you can have fun with tactical combat.
Well, kinda. At least in 4e you can have fun rolling dice and pushing minis around.Fixed that for you.
Right, because Pathfinder totally doesn't do that.
Wait a sec! The entire combat section uses hexes in the examples, and even the GMG says: "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game presumes you're playing with miniatures and using a gridded mat to keep track of character locations during combat".
Can we not rose color our game of choice here?=)
First off, let me say (if you read my bio) I love all D&D in all it's forms, and only base my opinions off of the ruleset I find to be the most clear and concise that I can use without it getting in the way of the story. To me each edition of the game has just been a evolution of the one before.
Sadly P.H. if I were you I would say if any of your players make any combat sound like that, it's on the player not the system. The onus is on the player and GM, no matter what game you play, heck 4E even gives you flavor to incorporate at the top of EVERY power.
I run a game for my kids, when they hit, crit or fumble I describe the action for them. When they bloody an enemy, I describe the action. When they kill one, I describe it. I spend more time flavoring the combat than running numbers and adjudicating rules, because it's been made so much smoother
TOZ tactical may not be the right word for it, but dynamic most definately is.
Combat in any prev edition:
P1, I attack, hit, x damage
P2 I attack, miss
DM monsters attack, 3 hits, 2 misses
P1, I attack, hit, x damage
P2 I attack, hit, x damage
DM monsters attack, 1 hit, 4 misses
No one moved they just stood there and Irish boxed for 5-7 rounds. Movement took place at the start of a fight to close, or when running away was needed. No one wanted to move, they got only 1 out of x number of attacks if they did. To me combat is a flowing, moving, living, breathing entity. For me it just didn't live like it does in 4E.
My point here is that pretty much all the information the player gave in my example is necessary for me as a gm to know. He pretty much has to tell me all that. However, of late I have been finding that there is so much information given there, that by the time all that has been spewed out, I find it very difficult to find the energy/inspiration to even attempt narrate it in a story kind of way, as does the player. When your attack plays out faster it is a lot easier to find the energy to throw in some nice fluff. I found the same problem with 3E as well once you got into higher levels because PCs were often making several attacks on their turn and a single player's turn could easily chew up a huge amount of time.
No one moved they just stood there and Irish boxed for 5-7 rounds. Movement took place at the start of a fight to close, or when running away was needed. No one wanted to move, they got only 1 out of x number of attacks if they did. To me combat is a flowing, moving, living, breathing entity. For me it just didn't live like it does in 4E.
Not if they wanted to live most of the time. I disagree that 3.x is any less of a tactical system than 4e, but I'm not prepared to argue that is a more tactical system either. I think the two are about equivalent in that respect. It's simply that in 3.x for the fighting classes the movements you could make without taking a tactical disadvantage were smaller (NOT less important) than in 4e and it was less obvious to some players how important those movements were.
PH:
Yes all that information is used in a round of combat. HOWEVER, looking at the actions in that one round I would say he is out 3 encounters, a daily, and an action point. Odds are the rest of the fight he will be zipping through his last few encounters then speeding by with at-wills. The problem with your example being that the 1 round you demonstrated will not likely happen again the rest of the fight. At most, 1 more time for each other player. Everything else will swim by.
ADM Jose:
I will agree that 3rd was far better than the previous edition (the combat and tactics book was one of my fav 2nd ed just for dynamic combat options). In that same vein you are also correct that the movement wasn't less important, just less used because it wasn't as great as more attacks tended to be. "I'm wounded, I could Withdraw, or take all 5 of my attacks and try to kill it. I'm gonna stick it out and attack, besides the cleric's turn is coming up". 4E just made movement more inclusive. Each version has different aspects for different folks. The ratio of things I like over what I don't is just better for me in 4 than it was in 3.
I have to say that this is a complaint I have about both 3.5 and 4E. In 3.5, we actually started using dice rollers because it took so long to adjudicate attack rolls. "Okay, so I get 1d6 for the fire damage, 1d6 for the cold, 2d6 for the vicious (I'll figure out how much damage I take in a minute), plus I'm flanking, so I deal another 10d6 for sneak attack..."
Personally, I too have a difficult time trying to describe the actions of the characters after moments like that. That's why I try to punctuate combat as much as possible with roleplay, intrigue, exploration, non-combat rules, and just about anything I can think of to make the game as little like a dungeon crawl as possible. I think it helps the players feel more like they're in a fantasy realm, rather than sitting around the table rolling dice. Something to think about.
As people understand the system better, there will be more opportunities to roleplaying, but this will tend to degrade over time for combat, as there are only so many ways to describe a fireball. 4E adds alot of dynamics (short term affects) so I believe that is the biggest distraction, but another item I don't like about D&D in general is the multitude of different dice that need to be used. I would prefer a D20 system to use a D6 and D20. But once you remove the D20, you have a different type of game.
As to solutions, I roleplay encounters out as much as possible before going into combat, and often link skill challenges and combat together. Even in previous editions or different games it is a matter of blending in roleplay time, with combat. As a DM you must reward players for roleplaying, but for some even a stick of dynamite will not make them change.
It may be you are just burned out on 4E, which is fine, as I tend to do the same, and move from one game to another. Another avenue I have enjoyed is sharing the DM position with someone else, so when I have a chance to be a player, I will roleplay to give others a hint on what I may appreciate as a DM.
And one last thing, that may seem counter intuitive, is to slow combat down a bit, so everyone can reflect on each player's actions, and add in roleplay. Sometimes the DM and players are all about efficiency, and forget the main point of the game.
At the end of the day, at least we're no longer using THAC0.
My example was a little excessive, but not atypical. With 5 players I usually end up with each player have at least one turn with that level of complexity in a fight. The other turns can go by quicker, especially since we often use average damage.
PH:
Yes all that information is used in a round of combat. HOWEVER, looking at the actions in that one round I would say he is out 3 encounters, a daily, and an action point. Odds are the rest of the fight he will be zipping through his last few encounters then speeding by with at-wills. The problem with your example being that the 1 round you demonstrated will not likely happen again the rest of the fight. At most, 1 more time for each other player. Everything else will swim by.ADM Jose:
I will agree that 3rd was far better than the previous edition (the combat and tactics book was one of my fav 2nd ed just for dynamic combat options). In that same vein you are also correct that the movement wasn't less important, just less used because it wasn't as great as more attacks tended to be. "I'm wounded, I could Withdraw, or take all 5 of my attacks and try to kill it. I'm gonna stick it out and attack, besides the cleric's turn is coming up". 4E just made movement more inclusive. Each version has different aspects for different folks. The ratio of things I like over what I don't is just better for me in 4 than it was in 3.
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How do you want combat in D&D to sound?
--+--
And, hey, PC, what's with the THAC0 hate? It is a breath of fresh air after having each class use its own attack charts, and the (admittedly realistic) weapon-versus-armor-type modification table of AD&D 1st Edition. THAC0 is, essentially, what we have with Pathfinder: a target number to roll, which gets modified by the defender's AC.
Ideally I think a combat round should sound something like this:
Player 1: I deftly move up behind the ogre, emerging from the shadows and taking a shot at the back of its head. Damn a natural 1. The bolt goes flying over its head.
DM: The ogre hears the bolt whistle by and spins around. You seem to have got its attention. It strides forward and with great ferocity it raises its greatclub. Natural 20, sweet! It brings the club down on the top of your skull shattering it. Your character collapses to the ground with her brains oozing out on the cavern floor. Start rolling up a new character.
Player 2: I see this happen and vow vengeance on the ogre. I launch a magic missile at it. Bolts of magical energy strike the thing in the chest for 15 damage.
DM: The ogre laughs off the sting of your magic missiles and taps its bloodied club on its palm. Its angry eyes turn towards you. Suddenly you hear something move behind you. Oh, another natural 20, sweet! You feel searing pain as you are stabbed in the back. It seems that another opponent that you didn't previously notice has leapt out of the shadows and struck you from behind. Your vision wavers and then goes dark. Your puny frame crumbles to the ground. Start rolling up a new character...
Of course the rest of the party would suffer a similar fate as the turn progressed. Clearly a turn that sounded more like that would be much more fun for everyone, especially me, and obviously since I have to do all the work of prepping the game my fun is more important...
How do you want combat in D&D to sound?
--+--
And, hey, PC, what's with the THAC0 hate? It is a breath of fresh air after having each class use its own attack charts, and the (admittedly realistic) weapon-versus-armor-type modification table of AD&D 1st Edition. THAC0 is, essentially, what we have with Pathfinder: a target number to roll, which gets modified by the defender's AC.
"There was worst" doesn't make THAC0 any better ;p
THAC0 is really, really uneccisarily confusing. half of THAC0 says high numbers are good, half of it says high numbers are bad, you have to compare like three different things together, figure out what the to hit number for each individual situation is, and then realize that THIS time you need to roll OVER rather then under.
AC was seen as a huge landmark awesome thing because, holy crap, just one number you compare everything to? It's genius!
i dont think my game sounds any different. sure the rules are a little bit different, but the beer is still good, the company is still great, the laughter is still there, the clowning around, the making fun of each other, the dice are still rolling, the beer is still good.
i dont think it sounds any different at all.
been getting together with friends playing dnd since 1979 (the beer thing has only been part of it since 1988)
get together, drink beer, role dice.
Our game sessions are a mixture, much as they've always been.
Player 1: Oooh - natural 18 for init. Why can't I roll those for attacks?
Player 2: Uh - where are we again?
Players 3: We just walked into a crypt and cleared out a bunch of rats and you were unconscious with filth fever.
Player 2: Did anyone heal me?
Player 4: Dunno. I think the cleric was cooking spagetti.
five minutes later
DM: You guys have an init order yet?
Ten minutes intensive smackdown follow, mostly pretty quick because we're all focused and we don't know what we're facing yet. Then the two people lowest on the init table look at each other.
Player 5: Have I got time to put the kettle on?
Player 1: .... using my AP and my feat to shift 17 squares and charge but not taking any OAs ...
Player 6: I should think you'd have time to make a cheese toastie, never mind boil a kettle.
Player 1: ... oooh, and that's a crit and because I'm ignoring difficult terrain and using an AP, that means I get another use of my magic item daily ...
Player 2: Hey! I don't think you can do that, you don't have that feat any more.
Player 3: You leveled remember?
Player 1: Ugh. Yeah. OK. DM can I try that again?
DM: ... *sigh*
In other words, we're people playing a game for fun. We get distracted, we have a blast, we eat a lot, we drink a little, we spill glasses over the wipeclean map and the cat sits on the init board smearing the conditions list. All of this is true regardless of what we're playing.
You know what? I wouldn't have it any other way.
In other words, we're people playing a game for fun. We get distracted, we have a blast, we eat a lot, we drink a little, we spill glasses over the wipeclean map and the cat sits on the init board smearing the conditions list. All of this is true regardless of what we're playing.You know what? I wouldn't have it any other way.
+1 Sounds pretty much the same regardless of game system. I'm surprised your group can stay on topic that much....
Ideally I think a combat round should sound something like this:
Player 1: I deftly move up behind the ogre, emerging from the shadows and taking a shot at the back of its head. Damn a natural 1. The bolt goes flying over its head.
DM: The ogre hears the bolt whistle by and spins around. You seem to have got its attention. It strides forward and with great ferocity it raises its greatclub. Natural 20, sweet! It brings the club down on the top of your skull shattering it. Your character collapses to the ground with her brains oozing out on the cavern floor. Start rolling up a new character.
Player 2: I see this happen and vow vengeance on the ogre. I launch a magic missile at it. Bolts of magical energy strike the thing in the chest for 15 damage.
DM: The ogre laughs off the sting of your magic missiles and taps its bloodied club on its palm. Its angry eyes turn towards you. Suddenly you hear something move behind you. Oh, another natural 20, sweet! You feel searing pain as you are stabbed in the back. It seems that another opponent that you didn't previously notice has leapt out of the shadows and struck you from behind. Your vision wavers and then goes dark. Your puny frame crumbles to the ground. Start rolling up a new character...
Of course the rest of the party would suffer a similar fate as the turn progressed. Clearly a turn that sounded more like that would be much more fun for everyone, especially me, and obviously since I have to do all the work of prepping the game my fun is more important...
Have you ever had any combat ever sound like this? I've played every edition of D&D except OD&D (74) over the last 28 years and have never heard anything like this at any conventions, home groups or D&D Days at a local game store. This sounds like a pipe dream to me that you have idealized as the "proper" way to play. I also really like how you feel your fun is more important than anyone else'. You come across as having a HUGE ego.
Ten minutes intensive smackdown follow, mostly pretty quick because we're all focused and we don't know what we're facing yet.
There is no facing in 4E. :-P
Apparently sarcasm doesn't translate well on these boards. I was mostly just joking with that post, particularly about the part with me slaughtering all the PCs and my fun being more important (except that I do literally put at least 4 hours a week outside of the game working on my campaigns, drawing battle maps, prepping stat blocks etc.. All the player has to do is show up).
Of course your game won't likely end up like that. However, in seriousness I have found that it is a lot easier to have bits of description and narration when running a game that has less finicky tactical rules than dnd does. For instance, I was running all flesh must be eaten at a convention the other day and it was pretty easy to have a somewhat similar level of narration to what I described because of the way the game is designed (ie it's a more rules lite game). Dnd was more or less that way too when we first started our campaign, but it's gotten progressively more bogged down with tactical detail as the characters have advanced in level and gained access to more and more abilities and powers.
Have you ever had any combat ever sound like this? I've played every edition of D&D except OD&D (74) over the last 28 years and have never heard anything like this at any conventions, home groups or D&D Days at a local game store. This sounds like a pipe dream to me that you have idealized as the "proper" way to play. I also really like how you feel your fun is more important than anyone else'. You come across as having a HUGE ego.Ideally I think a combat round should sound something like this:
Player 1: I deftly move up behind the ogre, emerging from the shadows and taking a shot at the back of its head. Damn a natural 1. The bolt goes flying over its head.
DM: The ogre hears the bolt whistle by and spins around. You seem to have got its attention. It strides forward and with great ferocity it raises its greatclub. Natural 20, sweet! It brings the club down on the top of your skull shattering it. Your character collapses to the ground with her brains oozing out on the cavern floor. Start rolling up a new character.
Player 2: I see this happen and vow vengeance on the ogre. I launch a magic missile at it. Bolts of magical energy strike the thing in the chest for 15 damage.
DM: The ogre laughs off the sting of your magic missiles and taps its bloodied club on its palm. Its angry eyes turn towards you. Suddenly you hear something move behind you. Oh, another natural 20, sweet! You feel searing pain as you are stabbed in the back. It seems that another opponent that you didn't previously notice has leapt out of the shadows and struck you from behind. Your vision wavers and then goes dark. Your puny frame crumbles to the ground. Start rolling up a new character...
Of course the rest of the party would suffer a similar fate as the turn progressed. Clearly a turn that sounded more like that would be much more fun for everyone, especially me, and obviously since I have to do all the work of prepping the game my fun is more important...
Your right that if your using Savage Worlds or another rules light system you will get a lot more narration in. You may want to talk to your players and see if they are on board however. People gravitate toward tactical combats with interesting options for a reason. Savage worlds may let you narrate more effectively but there could be issues if the players don't find their choices interesting enough. You doing great narration to gamers who are drifting off is probably not your ideal scenario.
Not saying that is what will happen. Savage Worlds is a good system after all.
I know most of my players would be fine with it. But keeping the players happy is one of the reasons I haven't tossed dnd out the window yet. I know that I have at least one player who is all about tinkering with all the character building options that game has in order to fill his power gaming fix. Though frankly, I'm quickly losing interest in running a game that I'm no longer particularly enjoying just so one player can have fun being a power gamer. Also Savage worlds doesn't have an overly well developed magic system, so I'm not sure if it would quite hold up as the main engine for a fantasy campaign.
Your right that if your using Savage Worlds or another rules light system you will get a lot more narration in. You may want to talk to your players and see if they are on board however. People gravitate toward tactical combats with interesting options for a reason. Savage worlds may let you narrate more effectively but there could be issues if the players don't find their choices interesting enough. You doing great narration to gamers who are drifting off is probably not your ideal scenario.
Not saying that is what will happen. Savage Worlds is a good system after all.
I know most of my players would be fine with it. But keeping the players happy is one of the reasons I haven't tossed dnd out the window yet. I know that I have at least one player who is all about tinkering with all the character building options that game has in order to fill his power gaming fix. Though frankly, I'm quickly losing interest in running a game that I'm no longer particularly enjoying just so one player can have fun being a power gamer. Also Savage worlds doesn't have an overly well developed magic system, so I'm not sure if it would quite hold up as the main engine for a fantasy campaign.
I've usually seen it used more as a system for telling interesting interactive stories. You make your characters and do an adventure about being lost on Dinosaur island. 6 Sessions of that and its on to a new adventure, possibly at a different point in time with different characters. GMs can alternate easily with a new one stepping in after the last story was told. You might sometimes come back and tell another story with old characters.
This plays to many of the strengths of the system. Multiple DMs each with a bunch of time to prep their high impact story is a great way to spend game night. The universal nature of the system means no learning new rules every few weeks.
Campaigns tend to highlight some of the weak points, tactical combat carries a lot of the weight in a campaign and makes even the DMs off night fun and covers up an adventure if the concepts being presented are not an endless stream of totally cool. Its also easier on the DM. The fact that it takes the players a fair bit of time to go through an adventure means that the DM has lots of time to write the next one.
With much faster combats and therefore much faster adventures the burden on the GM is much higher and it makes a lot of sense to have more then one. Preferably almost everyone - or be ready and willing to play Ticket to Ride or other fun board games if none of the resident GMs have quite finished with their latest masterpiece.
Savage worlds may let you narrate more effectively but there could be issues if the players don't find their choices interesting enough.
I remember a Savage Worlds game where my character grabbed onto the back of a speeding car, jammed a wrench into the car's wheel well, then jumped clear just before it rolled over.
Not saying that is what will happen. Savage Worlds is a good system after all.
Well, okay then. ;-)
fooled again.
I was gonna link some viking metal, but apparently this thread isn't about background music.
I think that Savage worlds still has some pretty viable options for tactical play, but as far as character building goes, it doesn't have all the intricacies that dnd has. You won't see a Savage Worlds Optimization board for instance, which in my view is blessing since I don't enjoy that style of play (at least not when I'm in the dm chair), but I don't think all my players would see things that way, as I said I have at least one player who loves spending his time tinkering with various power builds.
fooled again.
I was gonna link some viking metal, but apparently this thread isn't about background music.
Uh, I'd love to hear what the heck 'viking metal' sounds like. I use all sorts of music in D&D. Including, in the future, Justin Beiber.
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Probably not exactly viking metal, but a little Nightwish can keep the juices flowing.
I think the most prevalent sounds at a table should be laughter and silence. One when something clever or very cool happens, and the other when everyone else is so into a story part that they are quiet while one of their friends gets into the drama.
If you can get your palyers leaning over the table with their fingers in their mouths like kids at a campfire, that's the kind of silence I'm talking about. The you let them have their say and move the story for them. That's probably the best kind of moment I can ask for in a game.
As far as music goes, I try to have a Dream Theater reference at every session, and I listen to Dream Theater, Iron Maiden,and similarly dramatic bands when I want inspiration for story-telling, writing, or combat. Can't really paly DT during the game, though.
Uh, I'd love to hear what the heck 'viking metal' sounds like. I use all sorts of music in D&D. Including, in the future, Justin Beiber.fooled again.
I was gonna link some viking metal, but apparently this thread isn't about background music.
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I think that Savage worlds still has some pretty viable options for tactical play, but as far as character building goes, it doesn't have all the intricacies that dnd has. You won't see a Savage Worlds Optimization board for instance, which in my view is blessing since I don't enjoy that style of play (at least not when I'm in the dm chair), but I don't think all my players would see things that way, as I said I have at least one player who loves spending his time tinkering with various power builds.
Good rules light battle mat based RPG for sure. Found the Fantasy Companion well worth the price. But the $10 main rules perfectly fine.
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Ideally I think a combat round should sound something like this:
Player 1: I deftly move up behind the ogre, emerging from the shadows and taking a shot at the back of its head. Damn a natural 1. The bolt goes flying over its head.
DM: The ogre hears the bolt whistle by and spins around. You seem to have got its attention. It strides forward and with great ferocity it raises its greatclub. Natural 20, sweet! It brings the club down on the top of your skull shattering it. Your character collapses to the ground with her brains oozing out on the cavern floor. Start rolling up a new character.
Yeah, I can see how that would be more fun for the GM...LOL
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I've even tried to tell them to be descriptive instead, I'll give bonuses if they do so. Don't bother telling me the power name or explaining anything, I'll assume you are doing it correctly, just describe what happens and roll the dice!
...and it still comes down to announcing every power by name more than anything else. But, as noted by others, the group acted exactly the same in previous editions as well.
You have to announce your moves, or they don't work!