Hey all, i tried to use the search function but couldn't find the right topic, my apologize if this has already been answered.
I'm starting a new paladin and i'm would like to know in advance which is the best class ability based on more experienced players.
Which do you think is the more fun paladin class skill between the mount and the divine bond ?
Hey all, i tried to use the search function but couldn't find the right topic, my apologize if this has already been answered.
I'm starting a new paladin and i'm would like to know in advance which is the best class ability based on more experienced players.
Which do you think is the more fun paladin class skill between the mount and the divine bond ?
Honestly, it depends on the race and the campaign.
Mounted Combat is, IMO, the easiest way to deal bajillions of damage early on. Lances deal double damage on a charge when on horseback, and triple damage, with three feats. And the Paladin gets the horse at a level equal to his full druid levels, so it's going to be a brute. Plus they get the bonus from the Aura of Justice just like everyone else.
But horses are large sized, and trying to get one through dungeons or buildings is pretty tough. A Gnomish or Halfling Paladin could have a boar, which has a nasty gore attack, and it wouldn't be all that bad. If you're really tricky, you might be able to convince your DM to give you a wolf, and then it can make trip attacks all day. (A brief aside, Gnome is one of my favorite races for Paladin - +1 size modifier to AC and +2 CON/CHA make for great tanks, which is what Paladins are for.)
The Celestial Spirit is not bad, either. What you lose in sheer damage output you gain in versatility, because you can slap it on any weapon. Want a +3 Holy Flaming Burst Ballista? That's totally doable. A +5 Defending Shield Spike to crank up your AC? Go for it. Carry around a Morningstar, and make it Keen sometimes, and Disruptive other times. If you want to make a Ranged combat Paladin, which is now viable because you can smite any enemy within 30 ft., this is definitely the way to go. Mounted Archery is underwhelming, at best.
So the Mount is a little bit better. If worse comes to worse, you can just have it run around and flank dudes for you if you can't ride it. But the Celestial Spirit is not anything to sneeze at, either.
Nothing is stopping you from buying a horse. Sure it won't get the divine magic going on, but you can still do mounted combat from upon it. But like the others said it depends where you're going, what you're doing. Indoors and in caves, mounts for a medium character just aren't feasible.
Mounted archery allows you to have a move action and full attack. You do take penalties, but you can get around and still lay down the hurting.
Nothing is stopping you from buying a horse. Sure it won't get the divine magic going on, but you can still do mounted combat from upon it. But like the others said it depends where you're going, what you're doing. Indoors and in caves, mounts for a medium character just aren't feasible.
Buying a horse for mounted combat isn't a viable idea past level 3. Even if no one thinks to kill the horse, the first time it gets caught in a fireball you'll be left with nothing but roast haunch and an empty saddle.
A druid can get a horse around a dungeon with reduce animal and spider climb. You're not so lucky. Either go with a small druid or go with a weapon if your DM likes tight spaces.
A note about a paladin mount:
Paladin mounts have intelligence 6. As such they are allowed all feats available.
So take the following:
Bodyguard
Combat Reflexes
In Harm's Way
on your mount.
Now when you are attacked the mount can give up one of its AoOs to give you a +2 to your AC. IF you are hit anyways the mount can take the hit for you -- then you can negate the hit with mounted combat.
Me, I go for the weapon bond every time. I know I can use it in every fight I want to. This is not true of a mount. In fact, in some campaigns, I've never been able to rely on being mounted at any time, any level.
And while playing a midget paladin lets you have medium sized mounts, what you give up for in melee awesomeness is not worth it to me.
Besides, even in a perfect world where you have your mount and ride it to inflict awesome damage whenever you want, all the time - you still have to leave your group behind while you go charging around the battlefield. And when that ally of yours needs an emergency Lay On Hands to keep him alive and you're 100' away charging down the enemies, you end up with dead allies.
And vice-versa, when something knocks you into negatives and you need a quick heal to stay alive, and your cleric is a hundred feet away with a handful of nasty enemies between you, then you're going to die.
All in all, I prefer to stay with my group. Strength in numbers. With a bond I can use all the time instead of situationally.
|
If you want to make a Ranged combat Paladin, which is now viable because you can smite any enemy within 30 ft., this is definitely the way to go. Mounted Archery is underwhelming, at best.
I don't believe there is a limit to the distance you could smite. I looked it up and as far as I can tell it's line of sight.
|
If you want to make a Ranged combat Paladin, which is now viable because you can smite any enemy within 30 ft., this is definitely the way to go. Mounted Archery is underwhelming, at best.I don't believe there is a limit to the distance you could smite. I looked it up and as far as I can tell it's line of sight.
Kais is correct. It's any target within sight.
Doesn't the Bonded Weapon max out at a total of a +10 weapon though? If that's the case, all the class ability is doing is saving you gold in the long run. Not really worth it to me.
To Dork Lord: it's true that the bonded weapon is only a gear saving...but it's a rather superior kind of gear-saving arrangement, just as the bonded mount is a rather superior kind of pseudo-horse/whatever. i.e: what price do you put on access to a +1 Merciful ballista, a +1 jailhouse brick of Disruption, and a Holy just-disarmed evil-arch-enemy's greatsword, that will give him a negative level (no save, no SR) if he picks it up again...all in one day?
Abraham: re mounted archery - it's a better option than that. In fact, mounted archery is a bit over the top as written in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, because (if you're on any combat-ready mount) you can take a full ranged attack and take a full move in the same round. Hell, you can even run and full ranged attack...and you don't need any feats to do these things. What Mounted Archery does is reduce the penalties (which iirc are nothing for a full-ranged-attack and move, hefty but often worth it for a double move, and only really dig in if you execute a run).
To the OP: the weapon looks really fun to me, as others have said. You can get really creative with it, and that creativity is a kind of power (and is fun besides). The mount is punchy (especially if you have a good bow and lance) but may often limit you, which (to my mind) makes it less fun, and ultimately less potent.
|
|
Doesn't the Bonded Weapon max out at a total of a +10 weapon though? If that's the case, all the class ability is doing is saving you gold in the long run. Not really worth it to me.
Not entirely true the weapon spirit gives you a flexibility you can't get outside of having to buy a bunch of different weapons, sometimes holy is where it's at, other times you need brilliant energy. You can also use it when in a 5 foot wide corridor.
If only bonded mount would give you magical beasts like Gorgons, Griffins, or Pegasi. ><
|
Doesn't the Bonded Weapon max out at a total of a +10 weapon though? If that's the case, all the class ability is doing is saving you gold in the long run. Not really worth it to me.
Which you could put into your armor or something else, making your performance all around better. And it helps until then.
A big complaint in 3.X was that Paladin's didn't have an alternative to a mount and a mount wasn't suitable for all campaigns (They couldn't fit in dungeons, they can't climb a mountain face, etc.) Some of the splat books gave options, but Pathfinder wanted options right from the get go.
If you can use it all the time, a mount is better hands down, every time. However, most players can't always expect to be able to use their mount. If you can't use your mount, it's worthless, so if that comes up enough weapon bond might be better.
It's all about options.If you want an idea which option is better, it depends on your character.
Basically, if you're small, get a mount. Even for a Halfling archer, a mount is usually better. Don't necessarily be small just cause you want to be a charger. The damage hit might not be worth it.
If you TWF, get weapon bond. You can't full attack if your mount moves so you lose all the mobility. Also, weapon bond let's your off-hand weapon or shield spikes lag a bit and saves Gp.
If it's a low-level campaign (not likely to get much higher than Lv 8) get the mount. The weapon bond blooms late, after you can put really good mods like Holy. The Mount blooms early. The extra hoof and bite attacks can actually make a difference at Lv 5.
If it's a higher level campaign, Lv 11+, get the weapon. This is where weapon bond really gets nasty. Make your +2 sword a +2 Holy Evil Outsider Bane sword, Smite Evil, and watch the demons get turned into paste.
If it's an outdoor campaign, obviously the mount will do better just as the weapon bond will do better in an urban or dungeon crawl campaign.
Personally, I tend to favor the mount slightly as long as I think I'll be able to use it. It's really a judgment call though, if I'm not sure I take the Weapon almost as often.
|
The sword is good anytime yeah.
I think the best race for paladins is half orc.
How many times did the orc ferocity thingy saved my paladin who was then able to cast channel positive energy as a swift action AND kill the bad guy at the same time ;o).
Half/orc paladin rocks (Although that sounds really weird ... ).
I don't think either one is better than the other. It all depends on the campaign and how you see your character.
If you have a rather kind GM there is the possibilty of letting the character have a figurine of wonderous power that summons the mount. You can use the same rules as you would for a druid, as detailed in Classic Treasures Revisited. If nothing else, it makes an effective stable.
Of course not every GM will be cool with this, but for those that are it opens a plethora of cool options, even if they are limited to the number of figurine types there are.
To Dork Lord: it's true that the bonded weapon is only a gear saving...but it's a rather superior kind of gear-saving arrangement, just as the bonded mount is a rather superior kind of pseudo-horse/whatever. i.e: what price do you put on access to a +1 Merciful ballista, a +1 jailhouse brick of Disruption, and a Holy just-disarmed evil-arch-enemy's greatsword, that will give him a negative level (no save, no SR) if he picks it up again...all in one day?
Wait... you can put the effect on any weapon? I was under the impression that it had to be on one particular weapon that the Paladin is "bonded to".
That's a huge difference if they can do it to anything.
Yup any weapon. Including that huge drumstick you were eating right before the balor popped into the room. It's a great reason to take catch off guard.
|
As someone who has a Cavalier in his playgroup we're finding the mount surprisingly useful. The mount can track, the mount can sense foes before the Cavalier, the mount has saved the PC's items by moving away from foes when the PC's are away.
To put it simply, once a party gets past the awkward first few levels and proper itemization kicks in the Mount begins to be more useful. Especially if you know how to use one.
Yup, bonded weapon works on anything. Although, I would rule some minor chastising prayer for a Paladin who divinely bonds with a barstool ... :)
Depends on his deity... Paladins of Cayden Cailean wouldn't be adverse to barstools of even mugs. *Laughs*
Thanks everyone,seems like Divine bond is all around the best suited for my style. Since my master allows it, have to say that the best race for paladin is the Aasimar. Will discuss with him about how many dungeons/closed ambients he is planning to use, may as well go for an Unicorn :)
Thanks everyone,seems like Divine bond is all around the best suited for my style. Since my master allows it, have to say that the best race for paladin is the Aasimar. Will discuss with him about how many dungeons/closed ambients he is planning to use, may as well go for an Unicorn :)
Aasimar aren't bad, but don't give up on the human, or half elf. Wisdom really is a dump stat for paladins now so the bonus there isn't do you much. Gnomes make rocking paladins and halflings do the job well too. Half Orcs have a LOT going for them also, while dwarves still handle the job with a solid performance.
Just having some cool racial bonus does't automatically mean that a race is perfect for a determined class. Gnomes are small size, which is cool for a sorcerer/bard or wizard maybe....but i think a paladin should be phisically imposing. There is also a tradition topic here....paladins are shining examples of good-doers.....not exactly what u would expect from a half orc. :)
Just having some cool racial bonus does't automatically mean that a race is perfect for a determined class. Gnomes are small size, which is cool for a sorcerer/bard or wizard maybe....but i think a paladin should be phisically imposing. There is also a tradition topic here....paladins are shining examples of good-doers.....not exactly what u would expect from a half orc. :)
Not what you would expect, but depending on the half-orc's upbringing, very possible. Sure he'll be met with suspicion a lot, but that's a challenge any half-orc will have.
*Ponders making a Half-Orc Paladin now*
Heck I remember when a Paladin had to be human with a minimum Charisma of 17 and a few other attribute minimums (14 Strength I think was one)... how times have changed. :-)
Just having some cool racial bonus does't automatically mean that a race is perfect for a determined class. Gnomes are small size, which is cool for a sorcerer/bard or wizard maybe....but i think a paladin should be phisically imposing. There is also a tradition topic here....paladins are shining examples of good-doers.....not exactly what u would expect from a half orc. :)
Racism is racism.
A small Gnome does wonders as a spirited charger, and as a smaller friendlier face does can do a wonderful job showing the nicer side of good. Half orcs show that good is deeper than skin or race.
Physically imposing can be done with a small creature too. Which is more impressive and uplifting? A man opposing evil of his size to defend the town or a gnome who even though smaller is still holding the line?
Racism is one thing, racial tradition and culture another ( and don't ask where i found a real gnome to ask him about please...we are all talking of fantasy matters )
And for the "imposing" matter....well surely a small creature showing bravery ( and again, brave is one thing...muscles another ) can be awe-inspiring but that is all. Go ask the spartans of the Thermopylae.
We usually play a PC, not its statistics!!!!
And sorry if i went out of topic.
idem :)
AD&D 2nd edition ,paladin minimum stat :
Strength 12
Constitution 9
Charisma 17
Wisdom 13
Race Human only
AD&D 2nd edition ,paladin minimum stat :
Strength 12
Constitution 9
Charisma 17
Wisdom 13
Race Human only
Ahhh thank you. See, I was close. My memory isn't what it used to be...
I did better, i took the handbook from one of the shelves and read it :)
luckily i still have AD&D handbooks
|
|
To Dork Lord: it's true that the bonded weapon is only a gear saving...but it's a rather superior kind of gear-saving arrangement, just as the bonded mount is a rather superior kind of pseudo-horse/whatever. i.e: what price do you put on access to a +1 Merciful ballista, a +1 jailhouse brick of Disruption, and a Holy just-disarmed evil-arch-enemy's greatsword, that will give him a negative level (no save, no SR) if he picks it up again...all in one day?Wait... you can put the effect on any weapon? I was under the impression that it had to be on one particular weapon that the Paladin is "bonded to".
That's a huge difference if they can do it to anything.
Is this in the errata? Because while not clearly stating it in the beginning of the celestial spirit description the last paragraph of it says:
"If a weapon bonded with a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls."
It is my understanding that this means a specific weapon must first be bonded with a spirit, thus you can't just add enhancements here and there at will.
Not to mention this ability is usable only four times per day at 17th level, sure that's 17 minutes of awesomeness four times a day but it is still finite.
Also, as to the "evil arch-enemy picking up the just holied weapon that he previously dropped" here is my answer to that, straight from to book:
"The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin."
So you see, even if my understanding of the ability is wrong and you can add it to absolutely any weapon whatsoever, the holy wouldn't affect an evil character (or good character in the case of a Blackguard per APG).
Just my two cents.
-Relkor-
Yup any weapon. Including that huge drumstick you were eating right before the balor popped into the room. It's a great reason to take catch off guard.
This mental image makes me happy.
Is this in the errata? Because while not clearly stating it in the beginning of the celestial spirit description the last paragraph of it says:
"If a weapon bonded with a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls."
It is my understanding that this means a specific weapon must first be bonded with a spirit, thus you can't just add enhancements here and there at will.
This very same sentence confused me when I first read it. I even went out of my way not to use Weapon Bond as soon as I got it to wait for a superior weapon. Then I reread it.
"The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level."
Then it goes on to describe what bonuses you get. I never says you have to bond with a specific weapon the way a Wizards Arcane Bond does. If a weapon is destroyed while it's inhabited by the spirit, then you get hosed.
Not to mention this ability is usable only four times per day at 17th level, sure that's 17 minutes of awesomeness four times a day but it is still finite.
Granted, this is as good as it gets, but how many encounters do you have per day? I average 3 - 5. I may have more encounters in a session, but I almost always get to rest first. Custom magic items don't even bother calculating costs for more than 5 charges per day it basically assumes 5 per day is all you'll ever need.
I add my voice to those who opt for divine bond. I play a pally for quite a time now and there was no fight in 14 levels where I could have used a horse to my advantage.
I'm a fan of both, and I agree with many of the above posters that for a small character, a mount is especially good.
For a medium character, I think it's a really close call. While it's true that you can't use a mount in every fight, you don't get to use a bonded weapon in every fight either. First, because it takes a standard action to invoke, which won't always be worth the time. And second, because you can only use it a certain number of times per day.
5th level - 1 per day
9th level - 2 per day
13th level - 3 per day
17th level - 4 per day
I'd also think about what levels you plan to play at. If the campaign is only likely to run from 1st-10th level, I think the mount is a stronger choice. (You won't have a lot of flight, making a mount a good movement booster for a character in heavy armor. The weapon doesn't have many uses per day.) If the campaign is running all the way to 20th level, and especially if it's starting at mid-level rather than 1st, I think the weapon is a stronger choice. (You can get a good mount via the Leadership feat. The weapon activates more times per day. Alternate methods of movement are easily affordable.)