I removed a post that was getting excessively confrontational.
Also, if you believe a thread is in the wrong forum, please simply flag the first post 'Thread is in wrong forum' so that we can evaluate it and relocate it if necessary. Arguing over placement of the thread is not productive.
But Kingmaker specifically has safe-guards against this: While exploring, the PCs have a 25%+ chance of a random encounter each night.
15%.
If the PCs don't get their 8 hours of sleep, they don't restore their spells.
The PRD says:
Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells.
and:
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells.
So the party gets jumped at night, fight their battle, and all they need to do is let the wizard sleep an hour late.
In raw, wizards must offer money and whatnot. Aligned clerics need to just ask for help, since they're powerful clerics of that alignment and everyone in heaven is really impressed
Actually, it's quite the opposite! Clerics need to offer bribes or gifts, arcanists just compel servitude. Bribes or gifts can make it easier, but if you're confident of your charisma or have other methods, they're not required.
Don't you remember AoW? The armor Angelica got was to help with our guilt and protect our investments, not because she demanded it (the inside of a magic circle vs. good is not a good place to be making demands).
Jasin, if I caught this right, the other frontliners you've got are a barbarian/fighter, a ranger and a monk?
There's the barbarian/fighter, the ranger is an archer, and there's no monk. There is a TWF rogue, however.
What's the level breakdown on the fighter/barbarian?
Barbarian 1/fighter 4 (the player wasn't there for the last few sessions, so the rest of the party pulled ahead in levels).
Jasin, if I caught this right, the other frontliners you've got are a barbarian/fighter, a ranger and a monk?There's the barbarian/fighter, the ranger is an archer, and there's no monk. There is a TWF rogue, however.
What's the level breakdown on the fighter/barbarian?Barbarian 1/fighter 4 (the player wasn't there for the last few sessions, so the rest of the party pulled ahead in levels).
We had a Barbarian/Fighter just like that in Rise of the Runelords, same level distribution. He died in the same fight as the Paladin to a Barbarian BBEG, but not before singlehandedly weakening the boss to the point that the other PCs could pick up the pieces. So in that way, he managed to share glory with the Paladin. How's your group's Barbarian/Fighter built? Ours was a standard 2-hander, though he had a tower shield that he would switch out if necessary.
Jasin, if I caught this right, the other frontliners you've got are a barbarian/fighter, a ranger and a monk?There's the barbarian/fighter, the ranger is an archer, and there's no monk. There is a TWF rogue, however.
I'm wondering if the rest of the party might be contributing somewhat to your impression of the paladin's superiority. Melee rogues are always glass cannons, and fighter/barbarian is actually a fairly weak multiclass (though only 1 level of barbarian is not as bad as it could be), because best-AC-in-the-game is one of the strengths of the fighter, and can-only-wear-a-breastplate-and-takes-an-AC-penalty-every-fight doesn't actually synergize with it all that well - the extra hit point or two doesn't really make up for the AC loss. I'm not going to argue that paladins aren't stronger meleeists than rogues, barbarians or rangers (because they totally are), but I wonder if a straight fighter would actually be holding up better against the kind of melee brutes you're describing than the fighter/barbarian is.
One thing I noticed you left out of your comparison of the "sample" fighter, barbarian and paladin - do any of your PCs have stat boost items yet? If so, which stats are they boosting?
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We had a Barbarian/Fighter just like that in Rise of the Runelords, same level distribution. He died in the same fight as the Paladin to a Barbarian BBEG, but not before singlehandedly weakening the boss to the point that the other PCs could pick up the pieces. So in that way, he managed to share glory with the Paladin. How's your group's Barbarian/Fighter built? Ours was a standard 2-hander, though he had a tower shield that he would switch out if necessary.
Are you in canada? Our fighter died so many times that the player moved to canada a few months ago. It might be the same person!
do any of your PCs have stat boost items yet?
We lack the money due to fighter dying a lot
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In raw, wizards must offer money and whatnot. Aligned clerics need to just ask for help, since they're powerful clerics of that alignment and everyone in heaven is really impressedActually, it's quite the opposite! Clerics need to offer bribes or gifts, arcanists just compel servitude. Bribes or gifts can make it easier, but if you're confident of your charisma or have other methods, they're not required.
I would say that this doesn't make any sense if I wasn't playing this awesome wizard right now
Okay, people here have mentioned using lay on hands while wearing a light shield or wielding a two-handed weapon. I've heard about these tactics before, but I've never actually found the rules that support them. Could someone point them out to me?
Light shields allow you to carry other items in the same hand. I can't find where it says you can do anything other than carrying items with that hand. If anything, doesn't the fact that you explicitly can't use weapons in the same hand prevent you from using lay on hands with that hand, since lay on hands requires an attack roll when used against an unwilling target?
Also, where are people getting the rule that you can transfer a two-handed weapon from one hand to two hands as a free action? I see how you can transfer it from two hands to one hand as a free action, since that's just dropping an item from one of your two hands. But the closest action I can find to grabbing an object with a free hand is the "pick up an object" action, which is not a free action. Or possibly the "draw a weapon" action, but you'd need Quick Draw to do that as a free action unless you did it as part of movement.
James Jacobs from Feb 1, 2010 (Can be found in the FAQ and messageboards)
"Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.
The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.
Also... lay on hands helps keep the story going by helping to avoid disruptive player death and lets everyone keep playing the game. So it's good to not stack more qualifiers and requirements on it."
I'm also pretty sure you can hold a Two Handed Weapon in one hand so that you can LOH yourself, although I'm having trouble finding the specific reference.
Think of it this way: a Paladin can hold a bow in one hand, right? He/she just needs two hands to attack with it. Same with any other two handed weapon.
James Jacobs from Feb 1, 2010 (Can be found in the FAQ and messageboards)
"Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.
The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.
Also... lay on hands helps keep the story going by helping to avoid disruptive player death and lets everyone keep playing the game. So it's good to not stack more qualifiers and requirements on it."
I believe the same ruling was used to allow casters to cast with medium shields if their spell only requires 1 hand, such as most clerics.
We had a Barbarian/Fighter just like that in Rise of the Runelords, same level distribution. He died in the same fight as the Paladin to a Barbarian BBEG, but not before singlehandedly weakening the boss to the point that the other PCs could pick up the pieces. So in that way, he managed to share glory with the Paladin. How's your group's Barbarian/Fighter built? Ours was a standard 2-hander, though he had a tower shield that he would switch out if necessary.
Two-handed Power Attacking axe-wielder. He deals huge damage, but goes down regularly.
One thing I noticed you left out of your comparison of the "sample" fighter, barbarian and paladin -
In my example, I was assuming that they didn't have stat boosts, or alternately, that they were all boosting Str.
do any of your PCs have stat boost items yet? If so, which stats are they boosting?
In my actual party, the paladin has a crown of Cha. The ranger has Dex, and the rogue has nothing. The barbarian/fighter missed the last several sessions, when stat boosts became available.
[rules reference]Ah, thanks Kryptic. :)
No problem. Always glad to make things easier for folks.
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Offering anecdotal evidence to the cause, since its allowed in this thread. Currently running Book 1 of Kingmaker. Party is a Pally, Ranger, Witch, Rogue. Honestly I've had much more to worry about from the Ranger and Witch so far than from the Paladin. LoH has not been an issue at any point. In fact, in a few encounters its been the only thing that made him worthwhile. I saw a statement by the OP about how monsters tend to be "a single bad guy or bad guy with mooks" and that is purely a style of play issue. I tend to prefer numerous, equally powered enemies over a single bad guy w/ mooks. Economy of Actions being the primary reason. Thats how my random encounters shake up, and im not afraid to mix up written encounters. Im not doing this because of the paladin, Im doing it because thats how I like my game.
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The real reason your fighter keeps dying, is because he is lower level than everyone else, he's missing probably a good 10+ hp, while that doesn't seem like much, even 1 hp can make a world of difference sometimes. I still say he should fight smarter.
As a paladin I have ran out of resources before and that has either left the party hurting or most of them dead. They are also probably under their wealth-by-level, which is somewhat important to a fighter. My GM put my group through a succession of difficult fights each time I ran out, this last time he just did so much damage, half the party died, which is okay because one of those players is leaving town before the last session, which is Friday. The few of us remaining only survived because we knew it was time to run away, myself included.
Just a side note but there doesn't seem to be any healer aside from the paladin, while I know that most paladins aren't content with being a healer, but they still tend to be more useful to the party when they keep the other members up.
One thing I noticed you left out of your comparison of the "sample" fighter, barbarian and paladin -In my example, I was assuming that they didn't have stat boosts, or alternately, that they were all boosting Str.
do any of your PCs have stat boost items yet? If so, which stats are they boosting?In my actual party, the paladin has a crown of Cha. The ranger has Dex, and the rogue has nothing. The barbarian/fighter missed the last several sessions, when stat boosts became available.
It is relevant, inasmuch as the paladin has to worry about Charisma boosts as well - something else that tends to draw resources away from damage, hit points or AC vs a similar-level fighter. Eventually, the fighter will want to look into a headband of wisdom, but at the levels we're talking about, a cloak of resistance is probably good enough.
It is relevant, inasmuch as the paladin has to worry about Charisma boosts as well - something else that tends to draw resources away from damage, hit points or AC vs a similar-level fighter. Eventually, the fighter will want to look into a headband of wisdom, but at the levels we're talking about, a cloak of resistance is probably good enough.
The paladin does get much more out of +2 Cha than a fighter gets out of +2 Con or Dex (they both get as much from +2 Str).
The fighter pays 4,000 gp and gets either
+1 AC
+1 Reflex
+1 ranged attacks
or
+6 hp
+1 Fort
points and Fort with his "other" stat boost. The paladin pays 4,000 and gets
+1 AC while smiting
+1 attacks while smiting
+3d6 lay on hands
+1 Fort
+1 Reflex
+1 Will
The real reason your fighter keeps dying, is because he is lower level than everyone else, he's missing probably a good 10+ hp, while that doesn't seem like much, even 1 hp can make a world of difference sometimes. I still say he should fight smarter.
He's lower level after missing the last several sessions, he was equal level when he was actually there (and dropping).
As a paladin I have ran out of resources before and that has either left the party hurting or most of them dead.
I might be reading to much into it, but I note you say it left the party hurting or most of them dead. What happened to your paladin character?
I still maintain that treating the other party members as the paladin's liability only emphasizes any imbalances, rather than sharing the spotlight.
They are also probably under their wealth-by-level, which is somewhat important to a fighter.
They are a bit behind, but I'm not sure it's more important to the fighter than the paladin. Armour, shield, weapon, Str, resistance count equally, and in fact, as I've mentioned above, it seems to me that the paladin gets even more bang from buck from stat boosts.
Just a side note but there doesn't seem to be any healer aside from the paladin, while I know that most paladins aren't content with being a healer, but they still tend to be more useful to the party when they keep the other members up.
I'll argue that they're more useful when healing a party member (themselves) and making a full attack, than when healing a party member (someone else) and calling it a round.
BTW, there is another healer in my group, a cleric, but it's true he wasn't there for the session that prompted me to start this thread.
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Problem is there, problem is made...
I sense the troll in you... may it be with you but seriously... trolling ... smurf!
Hah, joking aside.
1)Paladin is overpowered according what I understand plus the abilities s/he got
2)Other party members feel like being supporters or side-kicks
Paladin is LG, embodient of their God/Goddess and bring the joy, flowers etc to world... and pain to Evil and other smugs
1.a)Ability to use Smite Evil
1.b)Ability to use Lay of Hand
1.c)Plusses to saves
1.d)Other minor stuff
1.e)Able to Heal and Cause damage same round = 2 action / 1 roundSo...
We have also answers here:
1.1)House-rule: LoH is standard action
1.2)House-rule: LoH provkes AoO
1.3)Adventure Path is what it means. Adventure and there is in the end something like Big Bad Evil Boss
1.4.a) BBEG= Change the alingment to Neutral
1.4.b) BBEG= Change tactics.... play more wisely
1.4.c) BBEG= Get 4-5 side kicks to help him or something
1.5)Honor Code: Heal your allies. Of course this you can argue and people play as they see fit
1.6)You are the GM/DM. You should see how your group play, you can plan this in advance or try to come up with something sudden.2.1)Other characters = help them to optimize or something, I don´t know since I don´t play with you or with them.
2.2)All characters are good. Point! It´s way of playing, or coming up with tactics.
2.3)It is proven quite alot in this forums that all characters can do tons of damage or are good at what they do.
2.4) Try to play with them around or ask if the paladin could play together with team-> look at 1.5=Honor Code
2.5) All of them can do stuff which paladin is unable to do. Let the others get honor of killing BBEG-> keep the paladin busy
2.5.1)Minions
2.5.2)Difficult Terrain
2.5.3)Force Cage, Black Tentacles, etc etc
2.5.4)Make him waste those smites
2.5.5)Make him waste those LoH-> keep hitting him with conditions.Paladin sucks against Fighter = True. Against BBEG= Fighter sucks against Paladin = true. Thats how...
+1
It is relevant, inasmuch as the paladin has to worry about Charisma boosts as well - something else that tends to draw resources away from damage, hit points or AC vs a similar-level fighter. Eventually, the fighter will want to look into a headband of wisdom, but at the levels we're talking about, a cloak of resistance is probably good enough.The paladin does get much more out of +2 Cha than a fighter gets out of +2 Con or Dex (they both get as much from +2 Str).
The fighter pays 4,000 gp and gets either
+1 AC
+1 Reflex
+1 ranged attacksor
+6 hp
+1 Fortpoints and Fort with his "other" stat boost. The paladin pays 4,000 and gets
+1 AC while smiting
+1 attacks while smiting
+3d6 lay on hands
+1 Fort
+1 Reflex
+1 Will
Yeah, but if the fighter uses ALL his bonus feats (exchanging 3 of his level-based feats to obtain the saving-throw feats), he can get +2 to all saves, toughness, +X to AC _all the time_, +X to hit and damage _all the time_.
There is no way in heck you can make a paladin _consistently_ outdamage or out-tank a well-made fighter. He has his shining moments a couple of times per day, when he smites and stands tough against the big bads, but I have played and GMed several fighters and paladins, and this is ALWAYS the case. The fighter in my kingmaker campain has 8-9 more to hit than the paladin, consistently does almost twice the damage, and have an AC of almost 10 higher, and he is not impeded by his armor at all, with a 0 Armor Check Penalty in full plate, while the paladin is falling on his ass whenever I call checks. All this due to having over twice as many feats, and sweet class abilities that work 24/7.
HOWEVER, against the odd "DR 15/Suck to be you", the paladin gets his day in the sun. And should the cleric suddenly stop doing her job, the fighter would succumb to fear and mind-affecting effects.
Arguments that negate the presence of other party members cooperating are invalid in a game like Pathfinder, because if that is the case, then you're doing it wrong from the start.
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A fighter's level matters a great deal in his survivability, if he's having issues now it's because he's behind in levels and under-equipped.
When I had ran out of supplies I was the only character in the party with healing powers, or at least that would use them on a regular basis anyway, so when we were hurting I was basically reduced to a guy with full BaB and good saves, we spent the rest of that day hoping we didn't run into anything dangerous. When I ran out of supplies and characters started dying I could only run away or die as well, and I almost died anyway. Once again I only survived by my wits and the skin of my teeth. I was always hurting when I ran out of supplies like that, both times it has taken us (me and the other players) days to recover.
The only way the paladin gets more from their stats is that they actually get something for combat from charisma. The only thing they get out of it is better saves, more hit/AC, more lay on hands, and more spells with higher DCs. Now considering how unimpressive the paladin spell list is that isn't much, the hit/AC only applies to targets of smite evil, which has a limited number of uses/day, more lay on hands, which can be eaten up very quickly once out of combat, and the saves which is always nice, but even then saves are situational.
The paladin is a defensive class with full BAB, good saves, and not much else without expending a /day ability. The fighter is a more balanced (between offense and defense) class with the best chances of hitting things of any character class, all the time. Once the paladin is out of abilities they need to rest or they can be extremely underwhelming, but still very durable, fighters.
I have a question: does your cleric actually heal? That I've seen as a problem in the past, people taking classes built on healing, and they don't heal. Frankly speaking, unless the paladin has the monsters complete and undivided attention he should have probably started healing the others, they probably hit harder than he does. Even if the monster is evil the paladin's damage isn't very impressive.
The paladin can actually spend their turn healing everyone within 30 feet, which can be a bit of a problem as this does include any bad guys, unless they are undead or he took selective channeling.
It is relevant, inasmuch as the paladin has to worry about Charisma boosts as well - something else that tends to draw resources away from damage, hit points or AC vs a similar-level fighter. Eventually, the fighter will want to look into a headband of wisdom, but at the levels we're talking about, a cloak of resistance is probably good enough.The paladin does get much more out of +2 Cha than a fighter gets out of +2 Con or Dex (they both get as much from +2 Str).
That's not quite my point, though. If you only have roughly 4K gp total, the fighter buys +2 Str, no question - but does the paladin buy +2 Str or +2 Cha?
The Charisma boost is a drag on resources even as much as it is a benefit in stats. It winds up being much more complicated.
I'm playing a Paladin in Council of Thieves and the only things I have trouble with are various climb/acrobatics checks, low touch ac and Code issues (since the campaign is suited for chaotic good npcs and I'm up against the goverment, I have to use Atonement every once in a while). There's 3 of us, so DM gave us 20 point buy.
I'm using sword and board without TWF (didn't think of it when campaign started), now it's too late to change feats/stats) and I'm the main tank and damage dealer of the group. There's an Urban Ranger/Skirmisher who dual wields and uses a whip to trip and an Illusionist.
Few days ago we finished Sixfold Trial and I killed the boss single-handedly (albeit with Haste) in 2-3 rounds. Since that particular boss has Infernal Wound, I wasn't able to use LoH freely, since it required a CL check to function. Ranger tripped him once and fought with 2 mooks.
The reason why I was able to overpower the boss so much wasn't because of LoH but because of high AC. +10 Full Plate +0 dex +2 shield +2 Smite +1 haste = 25.
After the fight, I was on about 25% of HP without single use of LoH.
I'm playing a Paladin in Council of Thieves and the only things I have trouble with are various climb/acrobatics checks, low touch ac and Code issues (since the campaign is suited for chaotic good npcs and I'm up against the goverment, I have to use Atonement every once in a while). There's 3 of us, so DM gave us 20 point buy.
I'm using sword and board without TWF (didn't think of it when campaign started), now it's too late to change feats/stats) and I'm the main tank and damage dealer of the group. There's an Urban Ranger/Skirmisher who dual wields and uses a whip to trip and an Illusionist.
Few days ago we finished Sixfold Trial and I killed the boss single-handedly (albeit with Haste) in 2-3 rounds. Since that particular boss has Infernal Wound, I wasn't able to use LoH freely, since it required a CL check to function. Ranger tripped him once and fought with 2 mooks.
The reason why I was able to overpower the boss so much wasn't because of LoH but because of high AC. +10 Full Plate +0 dex +2 shield +2 Smite +1 haste = 25.
After the fight, I was on about 25% of HP without single use of LoH.
It's weird because the leader of the organisation in CoT is LG, but yeah. Our group has gone much much less revolutionary than standard and has pretty much everyone in the government in our favour, actually--
Which boss? The sword otyugh thing? With two Paladins at the time, we killed the thing in one round once it got into melee. Also, the following amusing event happened involving Sian--We were getting her to draw us a map because the Council gave her a map of the crazy donut zone. We had managed to get to her room without learning that you have to jump into the donut holes. Anyway, we slipped her the Runecurse to draw on because we didn't want it. We had no clue that this would summon a Bone Devil! "No, our map!" the Rogue shouted. "Nervyx, please!" Sian whimpered piteously. The Bone Devil grinned because Sian was completely tied up. However, the two Paladins smote him and killed him before he could make more than a single attack, and I think he was Gated, so that loser is dead for good. The GM said that the module doesn't expect you to be able to beat him
The only way the paladin gets more from their stats is that they actually get something for combat from charisma. The only thing they get out of it is better saves, more hit/AC, more lay on hands, and more spells with higher DCs.
Only that, huh? :D
I have a question: does your cleric actually heal?
He does, but sometimes the player isn't present. I haven't noticed a difference in the lay on hands dynamics. If the cleric isn't there, everyone grits their teeth, hopes for the best, and the paladin heals himself as he fights. If the cleric is there, the cleric heals everyone as needed, and the paladin heals himself as he fights.
Frankly speaking, unless the paladin has the monsters complete and undivided attention he should have probably started healing the others,
And using up his action for the round, instead of actually fighting? Hardly.
they probably hit harder than he does. Even if the monster is evil the paladin's damage isn't very impressive.
If the monster is evil, it's better than what a fighter or a barbarian would have.
That's not quite my point, though. If you only have roughly 4K gp total, the fighter buys +2 Str, no question - but does the paladin buy +2 Str or +2 Cha?
For the purposes of comparison, assume he buys +2 Str so it's a wash.
Or are you counting the mental anguish of having to make a choice rather than having an obvious choice like the fighter does as a balancing factor? :)
However, the two Paladins smote him and killed him before he could make more than a single attack, [...] The GM said that the module doesn't expect you to be able to beat him
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:)
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The only way the paladin gets more from their stats is that they actually get something for combat from charisma. The only thing they get out of it is better saves, more hit/AC, more lay on hands, and more spells with higher DCs.Only that, huh? :D
I have a question: does your cleric actually heal?He does, but sometimes the player isn't present. I haven't noticed a difference in the lay on hands dynamics. If the cleric isn't there, everyone grits their teeth, hopes for the best, and the paladin heals himself as he fights. If the cleric is there, the cleric heals everyone as needed, and the paladin heals himself as he fights.
Frankly speaking, unless the paladin has the monsters complete and undivided attention he should have probably started healing the others,And using up his action for the round, instead of actually fighting? Hardly.
they probably hit harder than he does. Even if the monster is evil the paladin's damage isn't very impressive.If the monster is evil, it's better than what a fighter or a barbarian would have.
Look, most of what a paladin gains from a charisma boost is the same as what other casters gain from their important stat being boosted, same as a bard, cleric, druid, etc. They get more out of one stat than a non-caster does out of their stats, but they also have to dedicate resources to those caster stats to get the benefit of them, and then they still have to put stats into their non-caster related stats if they want to keep up with everyone else, it's expensive and a bit of a hassle.
If the characters have similar stats and are at a similar level the paladin should do about what the barbarian and fighter do in terms of damage, let's say they are all level 8. The paladin has +8 damage on smites even if he is using a two-handed weapon, a fighter will have +9 damage (1 weapon training, 2 weapon specialization, 6 power attack), the paladin is more accurate (+ cha, whatever it may be vs the fighters +1 weapon training, +1 weapon focus, +1 greater weapon focus, but -2 for power attacking) but the paladin is probably going to forgo some strength for charisma so he loses both hit and damage for charisma, and the fighter has room in his feats for things like improved critical, cleave, great cleave, vital strike, and so on.
The paladin is not as likely to take power attack as the fighter is, and even if he does, once that smite target is dead, the paladin will drop back down to inferior damage and hit, then he has to use his smite again, and hope the next target isn't a non-evil target. The paladin's AC is only versus his smite target, so if something else attacks him he will get into trouble. The paladin will run out of smites eventually.
Most paladins should consider it a priority to keep their teammates alive, yes smiting the bad guys is important, but the meaning is somewhat lost when you have to lose a friend every time you go out.
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It comes down to how the player builds his character. I ran the AoW AP, and my buddy Jason played Merik, a wizard. He specialized in Evocation and, by the last adventure, could cast Twin Maximized Chain Lightning about four times and he could Quicken it twice!? That meant he was dealing 240 (I think that's right) damage as a free action and as much again as a standard. Power gaming is a real threat. You, as the DM, need to adjust the game to it. Drain his ability scores. Hold Person. Kill off his buddies and, when he's low on LOH, lay into him. It's hard, IMO, to run a game with a party full of power gamers, but with some out-of-the-box thinking, it's more than doable.
It comes down to how the player builds his character. I ran the AoW AP, and my buddy Jason played Merik, a wizard. He specialized in Evocation and, by the last adventure, could cast Twin Maximized Chain Lightning about four times and he could Quicken it twice!?
Wouldn't Twin Maximized chain lightning be a 13th-level spell? What level were you by the end?
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It comes down to how the player builds his character. I ran the AoW AP, and my buddy Jason played Merik, a wizard. He specialized in Evocation and, by the last adventure, could cast Twin Maximized Chain Lightning about four times and he could Quicken it twice!? That meant he was dealing 240 (I think that's right) damage as a free action and as much again as a standard. Power gaming is a real threat. You, as the DM, need to adjust the game to it. Drain his ability scores. Hold Person. Kill off his buddies and, when he's low on LOH, lay into him. It's hard, IMO, to run a game with a party full of power gamers, but with some out-of-the-box thinking, it's more than doable.
Hard to hold person a paladin. They have the single best will and fort saves in the game. You have to beat them up using other means. Reflex saves are really good. The Black Tentacles spell is particularly nasty. While their reflexes can be awesome, they usually aren't. The actual best way to minimize power gamers is to minimize combat. Hard to be powerful when role-playing all the time, unless your player really knows what he is doing, and has decided to take the entire system behind his proverbial woodshed. Which I can honestly say I've had to do before. Even if I regret being put into the position where I felt doing that would be desirable.
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It comes down to how the player builds his character. I ran the AoW AP, and my buddy Jason played Merik, a wizard. He specialized in Evocation and, by the last adventure, could cast Twin Maximized Chain Lightning about four times and he could Quicken it twice!?Wouldn't Twin Maximized chain lightning be a 13th-level spell? What level were you by the end?
Maximized makes it a 9th level spell, if he has a metamagic rod he can probably add quicken to it making it technically a 14th level spell. I don't usually make casters simply because I don't like the psuedo-Vancian system, but I'm pretty good at it when I must be.
I have a question: does your cleric actually heal?He does, but sometimes the player isn't present. I haven't noticed a difference in the lay on hands dynamics. If the cleric isn't there, everyone grits their teeth, hopes for the best, and the paladin heals himself as he fights. If the cleric is there, the cleric heals everyone as needed, and the paladin heals himself as he fights.
Frankly speaking, unless the paladin has the monsters complete and undivided attention he should have probably started healing the others,And using up his action for the round, instead of actually fighting? Hardly.
I think I've identified your problem. Your paladin is under the mistaken impression that he's a barbarian with regeneration rather than a holy knight defender of all that's good and pure, and he's been allowed to get away with it.
Every time one of his party members winds up bleeding in the dirt because the paladin decided that it was a waste to use up, "his action for the round, instead of actually fighting," it's on him. Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that the paladin should fall for choosing to smite rather than to heal his comrades, but he's on a dangerous path with that mindset. It's even worse if he's electing to instead heal himself with the ability that could have spared his friends (and at this point, I use the term loosely).
He's a paladin, for Iomedae's sake. He's supposed to be held to a higher standard. More than that, he's supposed to be an example of that higher standard. Efficiency and pragmatism take a back seat to "doing the right thing." Putting all of your comrades' lives at greater risk because you can't be bothered to give up a standard action or two to keep them safe? That isn't the right thing, under most circumstances.
Now then, the rules as written don't explicitly detail what a paladin can or cannot do, except to say that he can't commit an "evil" act or "grossly" violate a very vaguely defined code of conduct. They kept it vague because hard and fast rules are impossible in a game of free will and tough choices. But any DM with a paladin in his party should be paying attention to that paladin's choices, and holding him accountable for them through the game. The only outright hammer the DM has in this regard is The Fall, but not every problem is a nail.
If I were running this game, I'd make it a point to mention to the paladin's player whenever another party member seemed badly wounded or overwhelmed, without making any specific suggestions about what the paladin should do about it. Then I'd just watch. If the paladin ignores the friend in need to swift action heal himself and keep a' smiting, for example, I'd make a note of it. If the comrade gets dropped into negative hit points or killed because the paladin didn't help, I'd make a note of that too.
So yeah, the paladin gets to seem all powerful, while his companions languish without any support. In the meantime, he's developed a pretty ugly pattern of selfishness, arrogance, and callous disregard for the lives of others. He's taken the power that the gods gave him to help people, and used it to pursue naught but his own glory and vengeful heart. Do you think the gods might notice? Do you think that other entities might notice as well?
Sounds like a good story to me!
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How may places can one post the same thread? First Enworld, then here now rpg.net. What is OP expecting validation that Paladins lay on hand ios too strong. It's not going to happen imo.No matter how many [places he starts a thread.
Also: Circvs Maximus. I'm kind of disappointed that this didn't appear on TGD, because it would be a very funny thread there ;)
Not that the players complain
-I'm gonna die
-You want me to heal you for 3d6?
-No, I want you to kill the %&$&er for 1d8+260!
Your group's characters inhabit a very different world from my group's characters. My group's characters don't know from 1d8+260. They don't know from swift actions. They know that they're holding their entrails inside their bodies with their left hand and the holy warrior standing alongside them could spare a moment to mend their shredded flesh with a laying on of hands.
Or he could choose to mend his own flesh and leave them to bleed out in the mud, just because it's a little faster for him to touch himself rather than his companion.
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Not that the players complain
-I'm gonna die
-You want me to heal you for 3d6?
-No, I want you to kill the %&$&er for 1d8+260!
Not that this was explained prior to it being brought up. Very hard to determine every possible solution when we lack the information to do so properly. Even then he should have healed the injured party member.
The better way to role play the situation is to ask the GM, how does my party look? GM responds: so and so is badly injured. Paladin: Okay I heal that guy so he doesn't die and can be useful at a later date.
That said: no one who hits for 1d8+260 is going to heal for -only- 3d6. Certainly not as a full-on paladin. Sure you are exaggerating, but this is a lousy place and thread to exaggerate in, especially given that we are talking actual mechanics and the real nitty-gritty of the game.
You will have to get it through your head that while the paladin is powerful, if you hold them to their code, their power is severely curbed by the alignment and role playing restrictions. Those restrictions should also affect how they behave in combat.
Maximized makes it a 9th level spell, if he has a metamagic rod he can probably add quicken to it making it technically a 14th level spell.
Ah, quite, metamagic rods, they had slipped my mind.
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Maximized makes it a 9th level spell, if he has a metamagic rod he can probably add quicken to it making it technically a 14th level spell.Ah, quite, metamagic rods, they had slipped my mind.
Crap, I didn't realize I fat-fingered a 4 instead of pressing 3. No the spell level would technically be 13 not 14.
Sounds like a good story to me!
I get what you're saying, and I agree that the paladin's code should feature prominently in any game with a paladin, but I strongly dislike trying to fix mechanical issues through in-game story means.
If there is a problem with the rules (regardless of whether there is one in the specific example of lay on hands), I think it should be fixed by adjusting the rules.
In some ways, weaving the game's story around it only makes it worse. Are you familiar with Spirit of the Century or other FATE-based games? In them, something like "Unbreakable Code of Honour" is considered an ability, not a disability, because it places the spotlight on your character.
If the paladin truly is dominating combats, the last thing I want to do is have him dominate the plot as well.
And anyway, I haven't perceived my paladin's behaviour as un-paladin-like. He did heal others when they were about to die, put himself in harm's way (much like any D&D melee warrior) &c. But the thing about lay on hands is that the swift action thing means that hogging most of it for yourself isn't selfish, it's the smart thing to do. Unless the guy next to you is about to die, you're helping him more by healing yourself as you keep whacking the monster, than healing him and then letting the monster take its turn.
In fact, I might have been less annoyed if it was a swift action to heal anyone. I'd probably still think it's overpowered, but then it's just a matter of adjusting numbers, or perhaps not even that, because the difference between 4d6 and 5d6 doesn't break the game. But the difference between standard and swift has a huge impact on the spending dynamic, and rewards being selfish, which seems very inappropriate for one of the paladin's signature abilities.
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Sounds like a good story to me!I get what you're saying, and I agree that the paladin's code should feature prominently in any game with a paladin, but I strongly dislike trying to fix mechanical issues through in-game story means.
If there is a problem with the rules (regardless of whether there is one in the specific example of lay on hands), I think it should be fixed by adjusting the rules.
In some ways, weaving the game's story around it only makes it worse. Are you familiar with Spirit of the Century or other FATE-based games? In them, something like "Unbreakable Code of Honour" is considered an ability, not a disability, because it places the spotlight on your character.
If the paladin truly is dominating combats, the last thing I want to do is have him dominate the plot as well.
And anyway, I haven't perceived my paladin's behaviour as un-paladin-like. He did heal others when they were about to die, put himself in harm's way (much like any D&D melee warrior) &c. But the thing about lay on hands is that the swift action thing means that hogging most of it for yourself isn't selfish, it's the smart thing to do. Unless the guy next to you is about to die, you're helping him more by healing yourself as you keep whacking the monster, than healing him and then letting the monster take its turn.
In fact, I might have been less annoyed if it was a swift action to heal anyone. I'd probably still think it's overpowered, but then it's just a matter of adjusting numbers, or perhaps not even that, because the difference between 4d6 and 5d6 doesn't break the game. But the difference between standard and swift has a huge impact on the spending dynamic, and rewards being selfish, which seems very inappropriate for one of the paladin's signature abilities.
But... that's part of your job, if there are issues you have with the mechanics, you should fix them in the way that players will notice the least. Not wanting to do that makes you lazy and therefore not very good at your job. Especially because not everyone agrees with your assessment of the rules.
Not that the players complain
-I'm gonna die
-You want me to heal you for 3d6?
-No, I want you to kill the %&$&er for 1d8+260!Your group's characters inhabit a very different world from my group's characters. My group's characters don't know from 1d8+260. They don't know from swift actions. They know that they're holding their entrails inside their bodies with their left hand and the holy warrior standing alongside them could spare a moment to mend their shredded flesh with a laying on of hands.
Or he could choose to mend his own flesh and leave them to bleed out in the mud, just because it's a little faster for him to touch himself rather than his companion.
Honestly, I disagree with you entirely. First and foremost, the Paladin is granted powers to smite evil. That is his job. Saving people is secondary. If he has a choice between smiting evil and saving people, IMO he should choose to smite the evil. God will take care of the others, but he has a job to do, and failing that to save others is not acceptable. People die, with or without you, but evil will flourish if you do not stop it, and you have been given divine might to make sure it is destroyed.
How may places can one post the same thread?
Any that are relevant?
First Enworld, then here now rpg.net.
Circvs Maximvs as well. And I didn't start the thread EN World, just replied a lot, if you're thinking about the thread from a year ago.
Do you see some problem with this, beyond the fact that you don't agree with my assertion? The question is on topic on all of these forums, and while there are a significant overlaps in readership, there's also a significant number of people who read only one of them. I read all of them, at least occasionally.
Next time when I have a question about the PF rules (and I'm sure there will be a next time), where do suggest I post, and where not?
What is OP expecting validation that Paladins lay on hand ios too strong.
If you think you have something to contribute on the subject, please do so. If you think it's not interesting, don't read it. If you think it's offensive, report it to the moderators. But don't presume to declare my motives; it's rude.
Also: Circvs Maximus. I'm kind of disappointed that this didn't appear on TGD,
What's TGD?
because it would be a very funny thread there ;)
It's pretty funny here as well.