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WHen the entry for alchemist bombs say "Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk (*) do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb." does that mean i can drop 3 inferno bombs and stack the damage in the same spot for 3 reflex saves each for 6d6 every round?
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WHen the entry for alchemist bombs say "Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk (*) do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb." does that mean i can drop 3 inferno bombs and stack the damage in the same spot for 3 reflex saves each for 6d6 every round?As I understand it, they do not stack. The inferno bomb sets up an Area Effect of fire damage, similar to cloudkill and wall of fire. Multiple Cloudkills and walls of fire produce the same effect: a cloud of killer gas or a wall of fire, thus I cannot see reasonably allowing the stacking of 3 Inferno Bombs on the same square or area of squares. Can you really have 3 Inferno's in the exact same spot? - No
but i can have an inferno cloudkill fog cloud in the same spot?
3 inferno's just seems like more heat in the same spot to me
I believe I am correct in saying that what is meant by the text in the APG regarding iscoveries with an asterisk is that you cant stack them with other discoveries marked with an asterisk. That is to say, for example, you cant create an acid/force bomb.The text on page 28 of the APG reads" Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb" And furthermore it states "Unless otherwise noted, an alchemist cannot select an individual discovery more than once"
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I believe I am correct in saying that what is meant by the text in the APG regarding iscoveries with an asterisk is that you cant stack them with other discoveries marked with an asterisk. That is to say, for example, you cant create an acid/force bomb.The text on page 28 of the APG reads" Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb" And furthermore it states "Unless otherwise noted, an alchemist cannot select an individual discovery more than once"
i understand that part, but thats not what i'm asking.
I'm asking if i throw 3 separate inferno bombs in 1 round (via fast bombs) if the lingering damage stacks? Or if 3 cloud effects can stack in the same area (like cloudkill and incendiary cloud)
so would 3 inferno bombs launched at the same spot make a super deadly cloud, or if i'd be better off alternating couldkill bombs and inferno bombs for 2 different cloud effects
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I believe I am correct in saying that what is meant by the text in the APG regarding iscoveries with an asterisk is that you cant stack them with other discoveries marked with an asterisk. That is to say, for example, you cant create an acid/force bomb.The text on page 28 of the APG reads" Discoveries that modify bombs that are marked with an asterisk do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an individual bomb" And furthermore it states "Unless otherwise noted, an alchemist cannot select an individual discovery more than once"i understand that part, but thats not what i'm asking.
I'm asking if i throw 3 separate inferno bombs in 1 round (via fast bombs) if the lingering damage stacks? Or if 3 cloud effects can stack in the same area (like cloudkill and incendiary cloud)
so would 3 inferno bombs launched at the same spot make a super deadly cloud, or if i'd be better off alternating couldkill bombs and inferno bombs for 2 different cloud effects
Well the question isn't whether the bombs stack, but do the spell effects (ie Incendiary Cloud)?
Note that having 3 bombs all land in the same square/target is going to be slim... after all once you throw the first one there is a big cloud which would grant concealment since you can no longer see your original target...
[edit'd for spelling]
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I'm asking if i throw 3 separate inferno bombs in 1 round (via fast bombs) if the lingering damage stacks? Or if 3 cloud effects can stack in the same area (like cloudkill and incendiary cloud)so would 3 inferno bombs launched at the same spot make a super deadly cloud, or if i'd be better off alternating couldkill bombs and inferno bombs for 2 different cloud effects
Well the question isn't whether the bombs stack, but do the spell effects (ie Incendiary Cloud)?
I had to go and look up Incendiary Cloud. I would say yes, the effects stack.
Contributor
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I had to go back and re-read the rules for Combining Magic Effects. I realized that the first paragraph only mentions spells that provide bonuses or penalties. I have to assume that the remaining sections about effects are referring to the same kinds of bonuses.
That would indicate to me that spells that just do damage (like incendiary cloud) actually do stack when they overlap. As for whether or not their areas can overlap, I would say yes...they're made of gas/mist/vapor or what-have-you. Clouds of vapor and smoke can intermingle (creating thicker clouds), can't they?
One could argue that by overlapping the clouds, you'd be increasing the concentration of the white-hot embers and creating more opportunity for your opponent to take damage from them. Seems like a reasonable argument for stacking their effects to me.
If I place two walls of fire facing each other, someone between them suffers the effects of both. If I place one five feet in front of the other, facing the same way, someone in front of them suffers the relatively different effects of both. It follows that if I place two of them in effectively the same spot (which is a fuzzy point of argument in a world where spell effects play out across intangible five foot wide cubes) then a target next to it suffers the effects of both.
If I throw a vial of alchemist fire at you, you burn for 1d6. If I throw four vials, you burn for 4d6, but in 4 increments of 1d6 (for fire resistance purposes).
Something to remember: Very very VERY few effects in the game are permeating, nook and cranny, private place intruding, type effects. The only effects that do that are spread effects, like Cloudkill. Burst effects are just that, bursts. If I lob a water baloon high into the air, hoping to burst it next to an insect, what are my odds of hitting the insect with water? Its entirely possible for the blast of water to overshoot, undershoot, or even have a "missing" blast in the insect's direction. Fireballs are not momentary microwaves, they are roiling blasts of flame exploding out from a point in space. Empasis plural, indicating distinct, and therefore, separate blasts. And separate blasts may be dodged, hence the reflex save and evasion mechanics.
Even then, multiple spread effects can certainly saturate an area to a higher degree than a single effect. Multiple cloudkills make a fog practically dripping with poison. Just remember that all defensive abilities (saves, resistance, etc) are applied individually. Which you seem to have already done, OP.
I'd say that no ongoing area affect can double or triple (or whateverple) up for extra effect.
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The answer to your question is a solid NO.
Multiple incendiary, cloudkill, etc bombs would not stack, and yes I understand what you mean.
This would work in exactly the same manner as creating a wall of fire, or swords and having the wall intersect the creature at multiple spots and trying to say that the damage is applied for each spot it touches. Or even more similarly casting 2 walls of fire on the same spot.
The initial damage would occur again but the secondary effect would only happen once.
Look at it like this, You fill a cup with water, then you try to fill the cup with water with water again without pouring out the original water. Did you just fill the cup with water the second time? No, you didn't.
Incorrect. Damage always stacks. Casting multiple walls of fire so that their damaging zones intersect means you take damage from all of them if you stand within the intersection of their damaging zones. There is absolutely no rules support whatsoever for any other interpretation.
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I... disagree? You cannot fill a space with something if that said something is already there. It makes no sense to say otherwise.
That aside allowing this to function as thus would be allowing an alchemist to do this would let them deal an average of 1.5 con damage with each bomb they throw, which at 13th level (1 level after they get access to this discover)they get transformation would allow them 3 bombs a round at base plus any they get from TWF/GTWF.
This would create a 10 foot cloud that would deal 1.5 con damage 3 times a turn on the first turn, second turn it would deal 1.5 con damage 6 time, then 9, then 12. After 2 rounds a creature that stays in this zone will have taken an average of 13.5 con damage, next round that doubles up to 27 con damage.
That isn't even getting into inferno bomb.
Fast bombs is simply put, too good if you ask me anyway. Which is why I made a simple houserule that you can only apply fastbombs to normal unmodified bombs and therefore does not stack with the other effects.
I... disagree? You cannot fill a space with something if that said something is already there. It makes no sense to say otherwise.
Sure it does. You have a cloud of poisonous vapors that is, say, 500 parts per million. Now you layer another cloud in the same spot with another 500 parts per million. The cloud is now 1000 parts per million. Now you layer another cloud in the same spot: 1500 parts per million.
Or to use wall of fire: You place a wall of fire on the left side of a creature. Then you put one on the right side of the creature. Then the front and the back. Instead of getting burned just from one direction, they're now being cooked from every direction. For real-world proof that this works, try roasting some meat on a spit but don't turn the spit.
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This has little to do with bomb stacking, the bomb stacking applies to which effects you can apply and you are only applying the one effect to each bomb. Resolve it the same as you would the spell. If you dropped three incendiary clouds on the same spot would it stack?
As Zurai says most damage spells stack, if you had three delayed blast fireballs go off in the same place would they stack? I don't see why this is different.
Consider you don't get this bomb until 16th level, fire resistance is super common and applies for each spell.
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I would allow stacking damage up to 20d6 per round (as if the target had been immersed in lava). [edit - just to clarify, the stacking I'm referring to is the ongoing burn damage]
As for how much Con damage folks inside the cloud would take... unless the target is helpless/immobile he isn't going to be hanging around inside it...
Also it Poison Bomb only affects living creatures (and things who are immune to poison ignore it).
Add to the fact that since it is a cloud it is going to provide concealment and mischance to plant follow on bombs in exactly the right spot, I still have no issue with what this can do.
Although to cover the same amount of space you would actually need 4 bombs to get the spread of an actual cloudkill spell.
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As for how much Con damage folks inside the cloud would take... unless the target is helpless/immobile he isn't going to be hanging around inside it...
That's why you use force bomb to knock them down and stink bomb after your poison bomb to nauseate them so they have to spend the round standing up or crawl out of it ;)
Also it Poison Bomb only affects living creatures (and things who are immune to poison ignore it).
Add to the fact that since it is a cloud it is going to provide concealment and mischance to plant follow on bombs in exactly the right spot, I still have no issue with what this can do.
Although to cover the same amount of space you would actually need 4 bombs to get the spread of an actual cloudkill spell.
You've pretty much nailed it, cloudkill isn't that great an effect, it's a minion killer and a solid area denial effect. Drop one on your fighter's left flank and he doesn't have to worry about getting surrounded, or if enemies are coming down a hallway at you drop in front of the fighter so they have to fight in it or wait it out.
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As Zurai says most damage spells stack, if you had three delayed blast fireballs go off in the same place would they stack? I don't see why this is different.
This.
I was going to bring up multiple fireballs. As for ongoing damage, someone who is on fire from an alchemist's fire last round is still going to take separate damage from being on fire and being in the area of a fireball. It's counterintuitive, but effects that are not explicitly forbidden from stacking(like bleed with itself), should stack. One effect can be thought of as empowering another. I personally think stacking walls of fire on top of each other is a little cheesy, but it's no worse than multiple spell casters deciding to fireball the same area at the same time.
I think some spells are actually intended to interact and stack, like the way the light/darkness spells were rewritten.
Seems perfectly logical to me that it would stack. 3 bombs > 1 bomb, therefore it does more damage.
Yar!
Jut a general note to remember: this does not create a single super-effect, but multiple similar effects. They don't "stack" (by the normal definition of the word), but they all do cumulative damage.
If a fighter hits you 4 times with a great sword, he does NOT do 8d6 damage to you - he does 2d6 plus 2d6 plus 2d6 plus 2d6 damage.
If 3 high level wizards all delay actions to act at the same time and each cast a quickened fireball followed by a normal fireball all in the same round (that's 6 fireballs exploding on the same creature at the same time), it does NOT do 60d6 damage - it does 10d6 plus 10d6 plus 10d6 plus 10d6 plus 10d6 plus 10d6 damage.
If an archer uses many shot, each arrow does separate damage (though this has special rules for precision and critical damage, as detailed in the feat).
An alchemist who is able to throw 3 separate inferno bombs at the same time does not create a super cloud that does 18d6 damage a round - it will create a cloud that does 6d6 plus 6d6 plus 6d6 damage a round (save for each instance separately).
An important distinction (stacking vs. cumulative), especially once damage reduction and energy resistance comes into play.
Most people already know this, but I felt it needed reiterating.
~P