Ok here is a question that reminds me of the bag of rats greater cleave issue from 3.0
Can an irate chicken could at a living enemy for a Hungry Ghost Monk's Steal Ki ability?
If the monk scores a confirmed critical hit a gainst a living enemy or reduces a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, he can steal some of that creature’s ki.
Chickens are listed at 2 cp each.
Before adventuring for the day the Hungry Ghost monk goes to a local farmer drops a gold and picks up 50 chickens ties there legs together with some string and stuffs them in his Handy Haversack (he remembers to open it up every once and awhile to give them air).
He is battling along vs some giants and finally finishes off the last one, he is down to 2 ki point left in his pool and only 12 hitpoint(last one he dropped brought him back up some). Being an 11th level Hungry Ghost Monk he has Life From a Stone.
He hears in the distance more giants readying to attack him. He is alone and half dead and all out of healing potions. Is he in trouble? Nope, he pulls 10 chickens out of his Haversack shakes it to piss it off setting them on the ground at his feat. He then spends a couple round flurry of blows killing all 10 pissed off chickens.
Now our Hungry Ghost monk gains 10 ki points and 110 hitpoints. Not bad for 2sp.
Good luck for making the chicken an ENEMY.
I've commented elsewhere that I think that this mechanic is pretty ill-advised. I foresee a wave of squirrel-punching and bug-stomping.
(If you don't think that cockroaches can qualify as an enemy, try moving to Florida.)
interesting concept, except that keeping chickens in a handy haversack will get you into trouble with peta.
If I were your DM, I would rule that Ki needs either at least 1 hp, or at least 3 Int. With a chicken/buck or similiar stuff, probably below 1hp.
Or ennemy has to be withing 5 lvls of you. Something like that.
Because else, you pretty much have a drunken monk, except instead of bottles of booze, he keeps chickens to bite their head off.
But this is only if your character would else be stronger than the other characters in the group, if not, why fix something that isn't bothersome.
p.s. for style, I would bite the head of bats off, and call the monk Ozzy, and wear lots of black.
I've commented elsewhere that I think that this mechanic is pretty ill-advised. I foresee a wave of squirrel-punching and bug-stomping.
(If you don't think that cockroaches can qualify as an enemy, try moving to Florida.)
HA! When a group of us were staying in Florida, we kept hearing this weird clicking sound in our room the first night. We later learned it was cockroaches, big suckers. Then we saw the cat that lived at the hotel hunt and eat a cockroach.
We bought some cat treats and lured the cat into our room every night.
Of course, instead of click, click, click all night it was, click, click, click, thud, crunch, crunch, crunch.
As for the original post, as a GM I wouldn't allow it or if I did allow it I'd make it a ratio, like ten chickens for 1 hp of healing. They are not going to be the most Chi filled creatures in the world.
Besides all the other Hungry Ghost Monk's would call your character the Chicken Sucker. There's no dignity in it.
Well at least now we know what Ki tastes like...
Another solution would simply be: would the supposed enemy grant you XP ?
(based also on the XP rules for low CR challenges, which states that 'you should never bother awarding XP for challenges that have a CR of 10 or more lower than the APL' - Core Rulebook, page 399; PRD, Gamemastering-> Designing Encounters -> Awarding Experience)
If the answer is Yes, then killing such a creature would grant you the benefits from Steal Ki/ Life Funnel/ Life from a Stone/ Sipping Demon.
If the answer is No, then no benefit is gained.
And since a chicken has no CR at all, the answer is pretty simple to me.
Now, call that an house rule if you want (maybe one could still allow the abilities to work even against extremely low CR creatures - by RAW -, but the thing is, again, that a chicken has no CR at all), but that is how I see the ability should work anyway.
Just my 2c.
Weel, and the character has to have CONFIRMED CRITS to use the power. There are a bunch of nifty feats for IUS out now, do any improve crit range?
Now our Hungry Ghost monk gains 10 ki points and 110 hitpoints. Not bad for 2sp.
Yeah, it can work. But then the GM remembers he's not a stupid computer, and can totally think for himself and adjust to munchkin tactics, and one of the chicken turns out to be Pazuzu in disguise, who will just kill the monk.
Repeat offences will be punished out of game, too. Tarring-and-feathering seems appropriate, or the offending player will be painted green and then thrown to the rabbits.
As long as we're abusing it, you could just keep one chicken and use non-lethal damage. You'd drag the poor, permanantly unconcious thing along with you whereever you went and in between fights you'd punch the stuffing out of it until you get enough critical hits.
Imagine this. But with a chicken.
hobbles through thread...
As this is the Rules forum I'll try to stick to the rules. ;p
I see nothing that prevents it mechanically, but I have to wonder about the possible alignment consequences of having a bunch of innocent animals laying around that you do nothing with except murder to make yourself stronger. "chicken wrangler" jokes aside- this sounds like the kind of guy the PC's would array themselves against as the next BBEG fight.
We laugh since its chickens but if your PC's heard a story about a guy murdering forest animals to gain (or regain) his strength they'd truck out there and teach him a lesson.
The fact that this guy is using chickens instead of some hapless forest critter doesn't really alter that fact.
Respect. Life.
-S
People killing animals to strenghten themselves are quite common. Only Vegans would call them evil, or prepare to attack them at the end of the scenario.
No offense :)
If I were your DM, I would rule that Ki needs either at least 1 hp, or at least 3 Int.
That was going to be my house rule (at least 3 Int required).
I think this violates one of my own House Rules.
Keep the game fun.
I don't think that carrying around bags of sacrificial chickens will be fun for the game or the other players.
It's a beardy sort of thing and if a player tried to actually do this in a game (instead of just joking about it), I'd explain to him why this was against the spirit of heroic roleplaying.
I've commented elsewhere that I think that this mechanic is pretty ill-advised. I foresee a wave of squirrel-punching and bug-stomping.
(If you don't think that cockroaches can qualify as an enemy, try moving to Florida.)
The BBEG in MIB was a cockroach!
Chickens don't have stats; they're equipment, not enemies. Just like trees are objects, not creatures.
If I were feeling really lenient, I might let you do it with a horse or anything else with stats -- but not a chicken or anything else without stats. If it doesn't have an initiative it's not an enemy.
In practice, though, I'd probably institute the "it has to be worth XP to give you ki" rule.
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Chickens don't have stats; they're equipment, not enemies. Just like trees are objects, not creatures.
If I were feeling really lenient, I might let you do it with a horse or anything else with stats -- but not a chicken or anything else without stats. If it doesn't have an initiative it's not an enemy.
In practice, though, I'd probably institute the "it has to be worth XP to give you ki" rule.
All it takes to be a "creature" is a wis and cha score. Not a good one, you just have to have one. A chicken most certainly has a wis score, since it's aware of its environment, and it has a cha score since it knows the difference between itself and the feed it's eating.
The fact that a chicken doesn't have stats is because no-one's bothered to write them up yet. Just throw the stats of some other CR 1/3 or 1/4 animal at it and call it a chicken and suddenly you have stats.
Well at least now we know what Ki tastes like...
Made me lol.
I don't like the chickens, but I like the concept of the Hungry Ghost Monk purposefully challenging someone to a duel in a crowded town square.
He throws his first six attacks at his mortal enemy, and then his final attack at a bystander! He absorbs their energy!
It's definitely the iconic bad guy move, and this guy can do it without losing the fight basically thanks to not just focus firing his foe down. I love the Hungry Ghost Monk so much just for that. As a PC class? Terrible. As Dio Brando? Yes. Give me more.
EDIT: Heck, even with the chickens... I can imagine the party coming up to an old shack in the woods where the sacred hermit, the monk's kung-fu master, lives, and as they approach, they can see all of these chicken feathers lying around. This is normal for the master, as he keeps a flock of chickens to supply him with eggs, but it's eerily quiet, much unlike it would normally be during this time of day. They get closer and the door bursts open and out comes this monster of a man brimming with dark ki, eating a man's hand. The players can clearly see now that he's drenched in blood, and the room is full of dead chicken bodies.
"Oh, I'm sorry. I got hungry while waiting..."
Ooh! Just awesome.
I'm amused that this idea alone has multiple threads on the exploitation of the RAW. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.
We all know very well what the intention of the rules were meant for. So, by all means, if you feel the need to carry around small animals to sacrifice to power yourself, feel free. Don't be surprised when it has repercussions, if that idea even makes it to the table.
But hey! Travel with a necromancer and you could soon have your very own undead farm!
Farmer Bob: "We don't go near that'un's farm over there.. 't'ain't right, I say..."
I like the concept of the Hungry Ghost Monk purposefully challenging someone to a duel in a town square.
He throws his first six attacks at his mortal enemy, and then his final attack at a bystander! He absorbs their energy!
It's definitely the iconic bad guy move. I love the Hungry Ghost Monk so much just for that. As a PC class? Terrible. As Dio Brando? Yes. Give me more.
It reminded me of the end of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic where Darth Malak would heal himself by sucking the life out of captive jedi. Neat idea, but it needs a little tweaking IMO.
If I were your DM, I would rule that Ki needs either at least 1 hp, or at least 3 Int.That was going to be my house rule (at least 3 Int required).
Problem with using Int 3 as a low watermark is that it means animals that are a legitimate threat have no ki. With that rule a Monk could take down a T-Rex with his bare hands, and get nothing to show for it (except XP). Likewise for mindless undead, constructs and vermin, though I could definitely see a meta-physical arguement made that ki should not be available from those examples.
I much prefer the idea of it being limited to those creatures that would reward XP, perhaps with the additional consideration that the creature not be mindless.
On the other hand, maybe that's why martial artists like breaking boards so much. They're all animated objects that just happened to be standing still.
But hey! Travel with a necromancer and you could soon have your very own undead farm!
If you travel with a necromancer, don't bother with the chickens. You can just use your horse, and have it animated again. And then you can beat a dead horse for your ki.
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But hey! Travel with a necromancer and you could soon have your very own undead farm!If you travel with a necromancer, don't bother with the chickens. You can just use your horse, and have it animated again. And then you can beat a dead horse for your ki.
Well, technically it has to be a living creature to steal its ki. ;-)
And personally I think this example of munchkinism is as lame as the old "bag of rats/great cleave" gimmick from 3rd Edition.
Well, technically it has to be a living creature to steal its ki. ;-)
Only until you get life from a stone at 11th ^_-.
I'd let a player use a Handy Haversack to haul chickens around. Each chicken weighs about 4lbs (some are more, some are less for sure but we need at least a common starting point and a fryer is 4lbish). That would allow for 5 chickens in each side pocket and 20 chickens in the central pocket right? Cool.
You now have to get each chicken out every 10 minutes or it will begin to suffocate. That is either 30 move actions every 10 minutes to use the haversack to retrieve each chicken (or about 15% of your time flittering with chickens). Of course you could alwyas dump out the bags in one move thus spilling your chickens around to flutter about and get feathers, beaks and annoyance in everyone's way (add in some adjustments, and conditions for such). For fleeing chickens I'd think you'd probably have to take at least a 5ft step per chicken retrieved.
Keep in mind that breathing is not eating and chickens would need to be retrieved regularly to feed (as the bag does not create a magical fantasy farm for them to live in until you break their necks for power).
But sure you could suffer through that and your group may side with you and not care about all their travels taking longer, their watch perception scores being compromised by babysitting your chicken bag while you sleep, etc.
You then get to the main showdown drag out fight and begin to attack chickens...which have no combat related stats for confirming the required criticals, therefore rendering them immune to crits. Sure you can flat out kill a chicken each round. Heck I'd let you waste a full round and let you kill 6 chickens with each hand...but they can't be critted because they are fabulously unstated and would render as much combat excitement as pulling weeds to suck out THEIR life essence...or anything else without combat stats (ants, cockroaches, roses, mushrooms, earthworms, etc)
Sounds like a really cool way to drag down gameplay and do something gimptarded at the same time when you could be doing worthwhile things like beating up hobos and preying on innocent peasants/villagers like a soul sucking monk should.
you dont need a bag of chickens, just get the chicken-infested flaw!
Problem with using Int 3 as a low watermark is that it means animals that are a legitimate threat have no ki.
I have absolutely no problem with that.
Perhaps the most ironic thing about this thread is that I've seen old Kung-fu movies where the evil martial artist has used chickens to practice their special moves on.
Perhaps the most ironic thing about this thread is that I've seen old Kung-fu movies where the evil martial artist has used chickens to practice their special moves on.
It also gives an explanation for why, after being beat on by the major villain's lieutenants, the heroes in every wuxia movie are once again in top form after fighting through an army of lackeys to reach the main villain.
...Though I have yet to see one of those movies where the unnamed minions are chickens. I'm sure one exists, but I haven't seen it. >_> <_<
The biggest problem I have with this "class feature" is that it doesn't say the Hungry ghost monk has to attack the creature just drop it to 0 or fewer HP. No limit to how many creatures he can "absorb" from in 1 round. Any damaging area effect spell can "replenish him in 1 round" with enough "chickens"
Here is an ugly thought: Monk carries 2 bags of 6 kittens. grabs bag and slams it against the ground for an instant power-up.
There are any number of other sick power-ups.
Sweet dreams.
The reason I brought this up was exactly for the reason that it is a lot like the "greater cleave bag of rats" from 3.0
It just needs to be errated to fix the issue.
I run The Cheese Grinder tournament and we follow the rules as written, not the spirit but the letter. When looking at the spirit of the rule one person will see it one way, and another person see it differently.
Just wanted to talk about the letter of the rule. Currently there is no official definition of what an enemy is. I spoke with Jason Balmahn at Dragon Con about this issue. What I took away from the conversation is there is no official defintion it is up to the DM to determine what an enemy is.
I think it may be far better to have a solid defintion for whenever a power or ability states enemy we can look to the defintion of enemy to verify if the target in question qualifies. One simple way would be if you can gain experince from killing it. You cannot get expereince for killing a chicken but something near your level you can.
To a 20th level monk a troll is not a threat, he cannot gain xp by killing one, so therefore would not count as an enemy for use of stealing ki. Though for an 8th level monk the troll is an enemy so the monk would be able to steal ki.
One simple way would be if you can gain experince from killing it. You cannot get expereince for killing a chicken but something near your level you can.
WOW-esque (it remembers me how warlocks in wow can get a soulshard) but brilliant! I endorse it.
WOW-esque (it remembers me how warlocks in wow can get a soulshard) but brilliant! I endorse it.
One simple way would be if you can gain experince from killing it. You cannot get expereince for killing a chicken but something near your level you can.
I heavily approve it, in fact it was my very same suggestion some posts ago.
but I have to wonder about the possible alignment consequences of having a bunch of innocent animals laying around that you do nothing with except murder to make yourself stronger.
You heard it here first folks, eating meat in D&D is Evil and butchers are the most evil people in the entire game. Devil? Pffbt. Demons? Laughable. You want real evil, make your BBEG a butcher. Or even worse a tanner.
but I have to wonder about the possible alignment consequences of having a bunch of innocent animals laying around that you do nothing with except murder to make yourself stronger.You heard it here first folks, eating meat in D&D is Evil and butchers are the most evil people in the entire game. Devil? Pffbt. Demons? Laughable. You want real evil, make your BBEG a butcher. Or even worse a tanner.
To be fair, the Tanners were pretty evil.