If someone is bullrushing an opponent into a trap/pit which the someone knows is there, would said opponent get a normal Reflex save to avoid it? I'm plotting to run the updated Tomb of Horrors soon, and the whole bit with the gargoyle and the pit seems ripe for using just this tactic -- particularly as the gargoyle has Improved Bull Rush and Awesome Blow already.
Would the Reflex save be modified if the bullrush-ee was unaware of the trap? That is, if the opponent knew that to push the target back 10' would put said target in mortal danger, would the Reflex save (if any) be at a penalty?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but you do not get a save versus being bullrushed, regardless if there is a pit or a cliff edge, or whatever behind you.
If the pit happens to be a covered pit, or some sort of pit trap that lists a save DC, you do get a save, but making that save could indicate that you are in the pit's square, but have somehow not fallen into it. Ordinary open pits don't have a reflex save associated with them.
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but you do not get a save versus being bullrushed, regardless if there is a pit or a cliff edge, or whatever behind you.
If the pit happens to be a covered pit, or some sort of pit trap that lists a save DC, you do get a save, but making that save could indicate that you are in the pit's square, but have somehow not fallen into it. Ordinary open pits don't have a reflex save associated with them.
you get a save and a climb check to grab the ledge instead of plummeting
Are you talking about cliff edges and uncovered pits and such? If so, where can I find that in the rules?
It seems reasonable to me to allow that, I'm mainly interested because I didn't think the rules covered it.
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Are you talking about cliff edges and uncovered pits and such? If so, where can I find that in the rules?
It seems reasonable to me to allow that, I'm mainly interested because I didn't think the rules covered it.
climb skill:
Catch Yourself When FallingIt’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
3.5 had some make a "reflex save 15" about falling but idk if it transferred to pf
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3.5 had some make a "reflex save 15" about falling but idk if it transferred to pf
This is now a DC 20 Acrobatics check, made to catch a ledge when you jump short. Regardless, it only ever dealt with failed jump checks to avoid falling, not falling for any other reason. As you say, the Climb check is the pertinent skill here.
Regarding bull rush and the pit trap, there are no rules surrounding this, so here's what I'd do:
If the pit is 10x10 (long and wide, doesn't matter how deep) or less, allow a Reflex save (as normal) versus the trap's DC to avoid falling in the pit.
If the pit is 15x15 or more, it depends on the result of the bull rush check and where the forced movement ends as to whether or not a Reflex save is in order. If the result of the bull rush check is enough to move the target to a square that is not adjacent to a ledge (such as in the center of a 15x15 square), no Reflex save is allowed. Otherwise, allow a Reflex save to avoid the trap.
If the Reflex save to avoid the trap is successful, this means there is one square of movement from the bull rush that must still be applied. The bull rusher can't send the target into the same pit, even through a different square. If no other spaces are available, the target is prone in the square in which he makes his Reflex save.
After typing all that, it might just be easier to say, "You were forced into that square, you don't get a Reflex save."
I could kinda see the Acrobatics check, since the characters <i>would</i> be aware of the pit in question, although I'd probably apply the rules in a patched-together fashion. (I'm imagining a rogue pressed to the pit's edge by an ogre's rush, crouching and backflipping over the pit.)
So in my head, the way to run it would be this -- to clear the pit (and you'd have to go straight back in the direction of the bull rush), you have to make a standing jump Acrobatics check against the pit's width. Thus, a 10' pit would be a DC 20 check, 15' pit would be DC 30, etc. Then apply the "if you fail by 4 or less" rules normally -- that is, a DC 20 Reflex save. If you fail by 5 or more, you fall into the pit trap.
For a trap or pit that the bull rush target is unaware of, though... would you assign any penalty to the normal Reflex save?
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I could kinda see the Acrobatics check, since the characters <i>would</i> be aware of the pit in question, although I'd probably apply the rules in a patched-together fashion. (I'm imagining a rogue pressed to the pit's edge by an ogre's rush, crouching and backflipping over the pit.)
So in my head, the way to run it would be this -- to clear the pit (and you'd have to go straight back in the direction of the bull rush), you have to make a standing jump Acrobatics check against the pit's width. Thus, a 10' pit would be a DC 20 check, 15' pit would be DC 30, etc. Then apply the "if you fail by 4 or less" rules normally -- that is, a DC 20 Reflex save. If you fail by 5 or more, you fall into the pit trap.
For a trap or pit that the bull rush target is unaware of, though... would you assign any penalty to the normal Reflex save?
This reads like you're confusing mechanics here.
The Acrobatics check to grab the ledge (if you wish to extrapolate this rule from the jumping rules) should only apply if the character intentionally moves. Climb is the skill the catch yourself if you didn't cause the situation.
The Reflex save is part of the trap mechanic and at the most basic level doesn't care about movement (bull rush or otherwise). Whether or not the character is aware of the trap is irrelevant.
So, the bull rush essentially forces the springing of the trap. The trap (normally) allows for a Reflex save. The question is: Does being bull rushed into a trap still allow a Reflex save?
After dwelling on the issue a bit (see my previous post), I'd say that no, it does not, the target automatically falls in the pit. Whether the target is aware of the pit or not doesn't come into the equation.
All that being said, this isn't my normal kind of post. If you want to use Acrobatics or a Reflex save, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. It merely seemed as though you were confusing terms.