Considering I've heard folks on these boards claim that level 6 to 7 characters are borderline superhuman, it makes me wonder how you all handle levels and how common given ranges of levels are in your games.
Do people run Golarian or other worlds where a group of 10th level PCs can singlehandedly take over a whole city? Are 20th level NPCs unheard of in your settings, or are tales of epic level Wizards commonplace? ((Forgotten Realms, I'm looking at you))
Level 6 to 12 NPCs don't seem to be terribly uncommon in the Gamemastery Guide, where even the beggar is a level 2 character and a King is level 16. The Captain of the City Watch is what, level 8? It would seem that Paizo's "official" stance is that Golarian has plenty of characters anywhere from level 1 to 20 as NPCs and a group of 20th level PCs wouldn't be as rare as some might play.
I've always played it that the truly important characters of a given setting are likely to be at least level 10 to 12 and PCs aren't likely to be movers and shakers until they reach these levels.
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I typically vary the levels of the NPCs in my encounters to accommodate the PCs. So, they might briefly encounter the Captain of the City Guard (lvl 15), but their liaison or contact that they deal with might only be a lvl 6 investigator, or a lvl 4 foot patrolman. Once my party is at lvl 6, or lvl 7, then they start to deal with the Under sheriff (lvl 9-10), and so on.
A lot of times, I dont even stat out most of the NPCs. If my party does something wacky, then I just make them up on the fly, based on what I want to have happen. If particular tactics are well thought out and seem likely to work, I'll allow them to succeed. If however, it is as foolish as it seems, I'll let them roll and feel good about what they are doing, but ultimately fail.
I have found that PCs are infinitely more capable of surprising me than I ever though, and as such, if I have some dude all statted out (which btw, I dont often have time to do) they will stun me with the decision to ambush and attack my lvl 15 NPC, and then all of a sudden there I am with my story and plot all thrown out of whack.
For boss fights, or specific encounters, I will have most important stats done. This one thing, which is one of the biggest PITAs in my opinion, is one reason I LOVE the GMG and its gallery of NPCs.
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Generally speaking, I let the environment, determine the level of NPCs. For example: when an area has seen recent war, has a large population of highly dangerous monsters, or is otherwise likely to produce tougher individuals, I'll make the NPCs appropriate to what I want them to do, if I want them to be able to hold off monsters, they will. Now player characters can be movers and shakers from level 1 if they take the right actions, though they rarely do.
Players can be incredibly hard to predict, so I try to keep an open mind, and several contingencies based on potential actions. I figure these contingencies out by putting myself in these situations and thinking of every possible scenario, then putting together a backup plan for the situations which seem most likely.
I realize that as a game with only a very weak grasp of what human potential is in the first place that the levels only tell me, as a player what level of power I should expect to see and face when I play a character of that level.
Character level has about as much bearing on human potential as my character's strength or ability to swing a sword has bearing on me.
Considering I've heard folks on these boards claim that level 6 to 7 characters are borderline superhuman, it makes me wonder how you all handle levels and how common given ranges of levels are in your games.
Do people run Golarian or other worlds where a group of 10th level PCs can singlehandedly take over a whole city? Are 20th level NPCs unheard of in your settings, or are tales of epic level Wizards commonplace? ((Forgotten Realms, I'm looking at you))
Level 6 to 12 NPCs don't seem to be terribly uncommon in the Gamemastery Guide, where even the beggar is a level 2 character and a King is level 16. The Captain of the City Watch is what, level 8? It would seem that Paizo's "official" stance is that Golarian has plenty of characters anywhere from level 1 to 20 as NPCs and a group of 20th level PCs wouldn't be as rare as some might play.
I've always played it that the truly important characters of a given setting are likely to be at least level 10 to 12 and PCs aren't likely to be movers and shakers until they reach these levels.
I think 5th level are about as good as most people get.
7th to 9th level represent world class athletes or the top people in a field. I don't think we have had any level 10's in our world. If we did they were scientist like Einstein, people that come along once a century or less. Anything above 10 is superhuman, but not unkillable or beyond defeat. Anything at level 20 would seem supernatural and will never exist. I normally like for a world to have maybe 1 or 2 known 17 to 20 level person of a class that exist. That does not mean there are not other 20 level threats out there. They just may not be taking any actions at the moment.
I don't think we have had any level 10's in our world. If we did they were scientist like Einstein, people that come along once a century or less.
Except Einstein did nothing other than copy over someone else's work and put his name on it.
I don't think we have had any level 10's in our world. If we did they were scientist like Einstein, people that come along once a century or less.Except Einstein did nothing other than copy over someone else's work and put his name on it.
What??!!!. Blasphemy. Now I have to go do research to see if I need another favorite scientist. Who did he steal from?
edit: I am not an Einstein fanboy. I was joking about the blasphemy bit.
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I think I'm going to be using this when I imagine the level makeup of my worlds from now on.
+1 amazing find and awesome article. Thank you!
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I don't think we have had any level 10's in our world. If we did they were scientist like Einstein, people that come along once a century or less.Except Einstein did nothing other than copy over someone else's work and put his name on it.What??!!!. Blasphemy. Now I have to go do research to see if I need another favorite scientist. Who did he steal from?
edit: I am not an Einstein fanboy. I was joking about the blasphemy bit.
Two words: Patent office.
There are a few level 10+ individuals in history, Audi Murphy was probably one of them. Oskar Schindler was an amazing rogue, even if he wasn't level 10+ he might as well have been, he could convince you he was level 30 if he tried hard enough.
Here's a pretty good list: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/list.html
What level did the White Death reach? Can we extrapolate from XP gained?
my PC's normally get into a setting, where townfolk is similiar to their lvl. They don't automaticly "lvl up", but a dragon might attack the town in the PC's absence (or presence), that should be worth some experience to everyone who's there. Or the PC's just get into another town or town become "schools" or something that allows for higher lvl characters.
For the lvl range, if experienced players don't want to start at lvl 1, they can start with something between 3 and 5. For the rest, I normally let them lvl pretty fast from lvl 1 to 3, then enjoy a good long lvl 4 to 10, and after proceed as fast as the Players want it. I just see when the campaign will end, and they should be epic then, so time over lvls to go equals progression.
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I was reading the argument for '5th level = typical height of human achievement' and at the time agreed - the reasoning that x modifier + skill points = % chance to achieve a result that would be classed as reality altering/amazing was hard to fault.
Then after some thought it occurred to me: There's a real flaw with the reasoning, or rather, something it fails to take into account: Situational modifiers.
Essentially, the author adds all the bonuses from the system to undertaking a task but doesn't factor in any of the penalties typically imposed by a GM attempting to reflect 'real-world' constraints/modifiers to task/action.
Is this bordering on house rules? Maybe.. ..however there are many examples of skill check penalties that result from unfavourable situational modifiers creating your own/imposing new ones doesn't seem illogical..
..and since the article attempts to make an argument for 5th level being the approximate limit/level cap of 'real-world' human achievement I'd argue that failing to include 'real-world' situational modifiers that penalise skill checks while insisting on the inclusion of in-game situational modifiers that benefit skill checks significantly weakens the integrity of the argument, especially one that is attempting to 'calibrate' DnD within a real-world context.
I realise that many such penalties are typically beyond the scope of most campaigns/games being run but if we're trying to accurately 'calibrate' DnD within the constraints of the real-world then I feel that real-world modifiers need to be taken into account.
For example:
And what does an exceptional 5th level blacksmith look like?
+8 skill ranks
+4 Intelligence bonus
+3 Skill Focus
+2 masterwork tools
+2 from an assistant or apprentice helping them
The author has included the in-game bonuses from masterwork tools and an assistant - however, other 'real-world' modifiers that would penalise the skill check are not included.
All crafts require artisan's tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a –2 penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan's tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
..a -2 penalty for using improvised tools. That's the limit of the situational penalties covered by the rules.
Personally, as a gaming system, that's fine by me - it's simple and effective. However, it's hardly an appropriate reflection of the many situational modifiers that a real-world craftsman would be subject to.
Example of Modifiers a Real-World Craftsman would be subject to:
- Attempting to create something never before imagined by another person
- Attempting to create something using a method never before imagined by another person
- Attempting to create something while tired or stressed
- Attempting to create something who's success relies on a method that directly conflicts with the accepted paradigm relating/regarding to success
- Environmental conditions (e.g Rain imposes a -4 penalty to perception. That's it... so technically our craftsman can still craft with no penalties...)
etc..
To Summarise..
The article takes a simulationist approach to arguing that the typical height of real-world human achievement/ability can be represented by a 5th level character but only within the constraints of the game system. However it It doesn't take into account the 'system' constraints imposed by the real-world.
As a result it's attempt at 'calibrating' DnD within a real-world context is flawed.
..and this annoys me.
Example of Modifiers a Real-World Craftsman would be subject to:
- Attempting to create something never before imagined by another person
- Attempting to create something using a method never before imagined by another person
- Attempting to create something while tired or stressed
- Attempting to create something who's success relies on a method that directly conflicts with the accepted paradigm relating/regarding to success
- Environmental conditions (e.g Rain imposes a -4 penalty to perception. That's it... so technically our craftsman can still craft with no penalties...)
1. This isn't even covered by the rules and is thus subject to DM adjustment, and isn't relevant since inventing new stuff isn't even covered by the skill in question.
2. As above. Invention isn't a part of craft (blacksmithing) and isn't even a necessary part of the "master crafter" stereotype. It would probably be covered by knowledge (engineering) or something, and could probably be achieved by the same character if the rest of his ranks where spent on that.
3. This I agree with could be better dealth with by the rules. Maybe fatigue and exhaustion should simply be a -1/-3 penalty on all ability modifiers instead of str/dex only? I could see a tired person being worse at reasoning than usual.
4. In what way should this be a penalty unless doing it wrong? I mean, if I can make a sword by dancing hula-hula, it doesn't matter if it's against the accepted paradigm - the sword will still be there.
5. This I agree with, but most IRL blacksmiths probably won't work out in the rain but rather under some kind of roof or when it's not raining, at least most of their time when making advanced stuff.
In order to make things coherent I use NPCs with high CR. The CR comes from training (for aged characters), experience (veteran soldiers) or unusual high equipment (i.e. kings with ancient magic items and a lot of money to spend).
The usual regular soldier have CR 1/2 or 1.
Important NPCs for small regions (generals, etc..) have CR from 3 to 8.
For the usual kingdom I use NPCs with up to CR 12, and sometimes I use some CR 15 merc as the King bodyguard.
For big empires I introduce high fantasy stuff (as golem bodyguards) up to CR 20.
I don't use epic stuff for the material plane.
Of course governments employ a few wizards and clerics. Furthermore important characters use a few magic defenses.
I'm not a big fan of old videogame style 20th level guards, but I use a few high level NPCs when it makes sense.
While there is truth that after a certain level most characters are something normal humans cannot aspire to anymore ( 6th or 7th sounds about right ), in all the campaigns I've played or mastered people still behave like their characters are normal people, just more powerful than most others.
I haven't yet seen a player who actively claimed to be superhuman ( except the elf player in my current campaign, who claimed this from level one ^^ ).
Therefore, I constantly use high-level NPC's. That keeps the players in line, too. :p
What level did the White Death reach? Can we extrapolate from XP gained?
:D
Assuming he began at 1st....
Well, there's no way to know the exact levels of the people defeated. In order to simulate it, I turned to the rules in the 3.5e DMG for simulating a community of characters. Assuming a +0 community modifier since the planet of earth isn't exactly known for its very high level wizards...
Simo Hayha killed 705 people. (reportedly)
Using the community generation rules,
Three were barbarians. 1 was second level; 2 were 1st level.
Seven were bards. 1 was fifth level; 2 were third level; 4 were first level.
Three were clerics. 1 was third level; 2 were first level.
Three were druids. 1 was third level; 2 were first level.
Seven were fighters. 1 was fifth level; 2 were third level; 4 were first level.
Three were monks. 1 was second level; 2 were first level.
Three were paladins. 1 was third level; 2 were first level.
One was a first level ranger.
Seven were rogues. 1 was fifth level; 2 were third level; 4 were first level.
One was a first level sorceror.
Seven were wizards. 1 was fourth level; 2 were second level; 4 were first level.
Five-hundred and ninety were commoners. 1 was ninth level; 2 were fourth level; 4 were second level; 583 were first level.
Four were first level adepts.
Four were first level aristocrats.
Twenty-six were experts. 1 was eighth level; 2 were fourth level; 4 were second level; 19 were first level.
Thirty-nine were warriors. 1 was fifth level; 2 were third level; 4 were fourth level.
Total experience gained:
28,005.
Enough to get him well into 6th level.
I'm just impressed that he managed to kill seven wizards as a sniper rogue/ranger multiclass.
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I really doubt Audi Murphy was 10th level. The bastard just rolled really well.
If he wasn't level 10 then he fudged a lot of numbers, like his hp. The White Death has this nasty little equalizer called a modern rifle, even if his wasn't really all that modern, it could hit for a hell of a lot more damage than any gun you will find in the Pathfinder material, probably on the order of 3d8s or more, because if you line up multiple people with it, you can kill upwards of 6 at a time.
I think I'm going to be using this when I imagine the level makeup of my worlds from now on.
Good article that.