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On the subject of planes, one of my friends said something that always made me laugh.
"How 'infinite' planes have borders is beyond me."
Klein bottle.
In previous editions of the game, the outer planes and the multiverse were basically called "infinite." And that's a concept that isn't accurate, because infinity implies an encompassing of everything. If Heaven is infinite, it's infinitely large and thus would have an infinite amount of contents, which would include all POSSIBLE contents, which means that there would be an infinite number of all the things on other planes and realities in Heaven. There would, for example, be an infinite number of Taco Bells in heaven. Now, obviously, that's not the intent of saying "heaven is an infinite plane," but phrasing it that way allows that argument to hold water.
This is absolutely wrong.
You can have an infinite amount of apples without having any oranges.
That's not the argument folks were using.
A more accurate apples/oranges analogy would be:
If a region is infinitely large, you can have an infinite number of apples in there AND an infinite number of oranges, and if the region is infinitely large, and thus has infinite possibility for what is in it, then it would by extension have an infinite number of oranges. And carriages and shoes and pteranodons and gravel and slightly smaller gravel and all the rest of everything.
By saying a region is unimaginably large but NOT infinite, it's not as easy for chuckleheads to argue that there must be oranges in that huge mound of apples. Because at the very least you can say there's just no room for oranges.
I am a latecomer in the discussion, but I want to add an example on how a "infinite" plane can be problematic.
If the Abyss size was infinite and it was infinitely mutable (it is a chaotic plane, so that is a given) we would have infinitely large section of it inhabited and controlled by LG beings and with a LG Alignment trait, the exact opposite of what the Abyss is.
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On the subject of planes, one of my friends said something that always made me laugh.
"How 'infinite' planes have borders is beyond me."
I always Planescape/Gaiman'd it. You can't find the borders of such planes by travelling in a particular physical direction. You gotta move in a metaphorical one. It might be something like needing to walk along where the sea meets the shore during dawn or dusk, or it might be that you need to get into a certain state of mind or heart.
On a subject of different universes I was wondering if middle-earth was located within the cosmos as golarion since its confirmed that our earth resides there. Could middle-earth prehaps as well?
Technically, children of night hags aren't changelings at all.
...then what are they?
Technically, children of night hags aren't changelings at all....then what are they?
They're changefiends.
I am a latecomer in the discussion, but I want to add an example on how a "infinite" plane can be problematic.
If the Abyss size was infinite and it was infinitely mutable (it is a chaotic plane, so that is a given) we would have infinitely large section of it inhabited and controlled by LG beings and with a LG Alignment trait, the exact opposite of what the Abyss is.
...no. That's exactly the point I was trying to make, and as JJ pointed out this is bad math, it's just that the number of people claiming it was true was so great that Paizo changed the wording just to get them to stop.
You can have an infinite and infinitely malleable Abyss without having one single angel, just as an infinite Heaven does not have to contain an infinite number of devils.
1)Why is the Pixie such a high level on Summon Nature's Ally?
2)Why was the Nixie taken off the Summon Nature's Ally list?
3)I was asking about the Lovecraft's Leng since and what other creatures were there?
4)I was talking about other uses for the Sky Metals then the ones listed, so that is what I was asking about?
5)Will Andriods look like machines(metal skin, gears, wires, etc.) or will they really look like humans(and/or maybe other races)?
6)If Nixies were on the Summon Nature's ally list what level spell would you put them on?
7)Any chance the Fey revisited book will have those fey form polymorph spells?
8)Other then the cover art, has all the creature art for the Innersea Bestiary been completed and turned in?
9)Will we ever the see the remaining monsters from the 3.5 monster manual such as the Arrow Hawk, Ravid, etc.?
10)Any chance that Mudmen or Eye of the Deep will ever make it into a Bestiary?
If Golarion is not Earth, why has magic and the presence of the gods abandoned Earth, while Golarion is full of divine interaction? Do some worlds become separated from the gods for some reason?
Not James Jacobs, but the Old Ones' entry in Carrion Crown (I THINK its Carrion Crown, anyway) heavily infer that Cthulhu is sleeping in Earth's oceans. I think this infers that the Earth in Golarion is a fantastic earth and not necessarily our earth.
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I am a latecomer in the discussion, but I want to add an example on how a "infinite" plane can be problematic.
If the Abyss size was infinite and it was infinitely mutable (it is a chaotic plane, so that is a given) we would have infinitely large section of it inhabited and controlled by LG beings and with a LG Alignment trait, the exact opposite of what the Abyss is.
...no. That's exactly the point I was trying to make, and as JJ pointed out this is bad math, it's just that the number of people claiming it was true was so great that Paizo changed the wording just to get them to stop.
You can have an infinite and infinitely malleable Abyss without having one single angel, just as an infinite Heaven does not have to contain an infinite number of devils.
Read the starting stipulations, in particular the second.
Read the starting stipulations, in particular the second.I am a latecomer in the discussion, but I want to add an example on how a "infinite" plane can be problematic.
If the Abyss size was infinite and it was infinitely mutable (it is a chaotic plane, so that is a given) we would have infinitely large section of it inhabited and controlled by LG beings and with a LG Alignment trait, the exact opposite of what the Abyss is.
...no. That's exactly the point I was trying to make, and as JJ pointed out this is bad math, it's just that the number of people claiming it was true was so great that Paizo changed the wording just to get them to stop.
You can have an infinite and infinitely malleable Abyss without having one single angel, just as an infinite Heaven does not have to contain an infinite number of devils.
I did. You're still wrong.
1) "Infinitely mutable" doesn't have to mean "everything does in fact exist there."
2) You can have an infinite number and variety of things NOT ONE SINGLE SUBATOMIC PARTICLE OF WHICH HAS TO BE LAWFUL OR GOOD.
Here, let me try a different approach.
Sure, the Abyss is infinite, and infinitely malleable. But that malleability only applies to its physical nature. Its moral nature is "Strongly Chaotic and Evil aligned," and no amount of random physical changes are going to alter its morality. There might even be a vast swathe of the place that looked exactly like Heaven and appeared to be populated by angels and archons, but it would still be the Abyss and they'd really be demons who happened to look like angels.
On the subject of planes, one of my friends said something that always made me laugh.
"How 'infinite' planes have borders is beyond me."
Pick any two distinct numbers. Go ahead. I can wait... Got them? Good. Now I want you to imagine all the numbers between the two you pick. Your two numbers serve as a boundary to all the numbers between them. Now realize that there are an infinite number of numbers between the two you picked.
It's probably something like that.
Guys, this is why I don't Advanced Math in public. Because people honestly start trying to convince me that there's oranges in the infinite apples because it's infinite when infinity doesn't work that way you arithmatic fool!
On the subject of math...
James, what's your favorite type of number? Real? Unreal? Imaginary?
Creative Director
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Hi James, can a barbarian have a furious amulet of mighty fists even if its natural weapons do not even have a +1 bonus?
Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal.
Nope.
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On a subject of different universes I was wondering if middle-earth was located within the cosmos as golarion since its confirmed that our earth resides there. Could middle-earth prehaps as well?I think you have to take that last with a grain of salt. I don't think that Paizo seriously advocates that our world is located within someone else's fictional (and quite probably Lovecraftian Chaos haunted) universe.
I've seen people try to create Omniverse pieces before like the famous title in that same name that got published in one of the Comics/SF books a couple of decades ago, which advocated that every single comic book ever written took place in a single "Omniverse".
One has to ask.... so what? Gaming mechanics make for lousy story telling, but homogenizing disparate worlds is even worse. You really would not want Lord of the Rings as retold by Paizo. It wouldn't be Tolkien and quite frankly Tolkien for all his faults is an integral part of the package that makes Lord of the Rings what it is. Similarity you wouldn't want J.M. Stravinsky replacing the folks at Paizo when it comes to creating Golarion.
Dumping Star Wars or "24 hours" in the middle of Golarion may appeal to some folks, but what that leads to is homogenization and the loss of the unique flavors of both.
We're not saying Earth is in the same universe as all of this...
We ARE saying that in the game, Earth is in the same universe as all that.
Actually, what we're saying is that all those different worlds CAN be in the same universe. We designed the setting's multiverse/Great Beyond to be big enough to accommodate all the different worlds you, me, and everyone else wants in it.
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On a subject of different universes I was wondering if middle-earth was located within the cosmos as golarion since its confirmed that our earth resides there. Could middle-earth prehaps as well?I know Pharier's question wasn't answered yet, but I have some tangential questions to the premise that Earth is in the same universe as Golarion. I don't know if you can answer them all without "spoilers" though.
Is Golarion Earth transmuted by some fantastic fate in the far future? The only thing NOT directly analogous to Earth about the placement of different types of environments, ethnicities, and civilizations in Golarion's continents (not to mention "humans" being native to the planet) is that the polar continent is in the northern hemisphere instead of the south. Otherwise, I mean, "Vudra" (India), Garund (Africa), Arcadia (The America's), Azlant (Atlantis), Absalom (Jerusalem) in the "Inner Sea" which is the Red Sea and the Mediterranean pulled together by Earthfall... and many other correlations and insinuations besides. Of course... the planets of the solar system don't quite match either, but that could be some transmutation fate also I suppose.
If Golarion is NOT Earth, is there any rationale for why humans arose there too? Tangent question... why can humanoid species have viable offspring with members of other humanoid species?
If Golarion is not Earth, why has magic and the presence of the gods abandoned Earth, while Golarion is full of divine interaction? Do some worlds become separated from the gods for some reason?
Golarion is not Earth.
One rationale for why there are humans on Golarion, Earth, and other worlds is that the gods are bigger than the universe, and therefore they can have started life on multiple planets at once if they so wished.
Another rationale is that humans spread through to different worlds in the distant past via a number of magical or scientific portals, either by chance or design.
It's not something we're likely to ever nail down in print, in any case.
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Creative Director
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Here, let me try a different approach.
Sure, the Abyss is infinite, and infinitely malleable. But that malleability only applies to its physical nature. Its moral nature is "Strongly Chaotic and Evil aligned," and no amount of random physical changes are going to alter its morality. There might even be a vast swathe of the place that looked exactly like Heaven and appeared to be populated by angels and archons, but it would still be the Abyss and they'd really be demons who happened to look like angels.
Let me try an even MORE different approach...
This topic has become worthy of its own thread. Please take it out of this one, which is supposed to be about questions being answered. I feel I've already put enough of my input on it that it shouldn't continue to be distracting here. Thanks! :-)
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Creative Director
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1)Why is the Pixie such a high level on Summon Nature's Ally?
2)Why was the Nixie taken off the Summon Nature's Ally list?
3)I was asking about the Lovecraft's Leng since and what other creatures were there?
4)I was talking about other uses for the Sky Metals then the ones listed, so that is what I was asking about?
5)Will Andriods look like machines(metal skin, gears, wires, etc.) or will they really look like humans(and/or maybe other races)?
6)If Nixies were on the Summon Nature's ally list what level spell would you put them on?
7)Any chance the Fey revisited book will have those fey form polymorph spells?
8)Other then the cover art, has all the creature art for the Innersea Bestiary been completed and turned in?
9)Will we ever the see the remaining monsters from the 3.5 monster manual such as the Arrow Hawk, Ravid, etc.?
10)Any chance that Mudmen or Eye of the Deep will ever make it into a Bestiary?
1) Because if you summon that pixie, it can cast an 8th level spell for you. And do other things. So summoning it has to be at least an 8th level spell.. or higher, since it can do other things.
2) Because nixies weren't in Bestiary 1. All the monsters on the summon monster and summon nature's ally lists had to be in Bestiary 1.
3) In Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, the denizens there range from strange horned men to yaks to shantaks to giant walking mountains to strange purple spiders to unknowable weird priests. In Mountains of Madness, it's suggested the central Antarctica is in fact Leng, which means elder things and shoggoths and giant albino penguins live there. In some of his other stories, Leng is suggested to be a plateau in high China or Nepal or Tibet, but that doesn't really say what lives there apart from things that live in that region of the world.
4) We'll periodically show those sky metals being used for other things in other adventures and sourcebooks going forward.
5) Androids are constructions meant to look like humans. That's what makes an android an android. If they looked like robots, they'd be something else.
6) I'd match their CR to the monster CRs on the lists and set them as appropriate.
7) Probably not. The revisited books usually have new rules for the monsters in the books, and fey are already fey... they don't have much need or call to turn into fey.
8) Yes.
9) I'm not in a big hurry to update those monsters.
10) They're already in Tome of Horrors Complete. Not a big chance we'll pick them up for a Bestiary now.
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Here, let me try a different approach.
Sure, the Abyss is infinite, and infinitely malleable. But that malleability only applies to its physical nature. Its moral nature is "Strongly Chaotic and Evil aligned," and no amount of random physical changes are going to alter its morality. There might even be a vast swathe of the place that looked exactly like Heaven and appeared to be populated by angels and archons, but it would still be the Abyss and they'd really be demons who happened to look like angels.
Different assumption.
You assume it apply only to physic, so the can be definite as malleable but incapable to assume every kind of form.I assume it is ever-changing in all its properties, as something truly chaotic.
Guys, this is why I don't Advanced Math in public. Because people honestly start trying to convince me that there's oranges in the infinite apples because it's infinite when infinity doesn't work that way you arithmatic fool!
The problem is that we are not speaking of mathematics but of philosophy.
The basic assumptions depend on a philosophical opinion on what is chaos, not on a mathematical assumption of what is infinity.To avoid philosophical problem that Paizo has decided to change the basic assumptions. Chaos is not infinite and infinitely mutable, so it don't encompass every possible permutation.
- * - * -
Now, a question.
It is possible to stack weapon and armor enhancement on a shield?
To what limit: +10 total or +10 weapon and +10 armor?
Officially... we haven't revealed yet. But until we do... they're night hags.Technically, children of night hags aren't changelings at all....then what are they?
Damn it, there goes all my hard work on Night Hag Changeling racials.
When do you think you plan to announce such info?
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Given how intervals of 6 seconds pop up in a lot of magical effects and many "mundane" ones and 10 (humanoid cultures are alreddy naturally fond of base 10 due to having 10 fingers) of them add up to a similarly common minute, does any culture of Golarion use a "round" as an in-universe measure of time?
What are the inhabitants of the other planet's thoughts on spells with effects lasting 24 hours?
Ha! An interesting idea... but no, the 6 second round is purely a game construct, not an in-world thing.
Creatures on other worlds with longer days are cranky about it but creatures on other worlds with shorter days love it!
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Guys, this is why I don't Advanced Math in public. Because people honestly start trying to convince me that there's oranges in the infinite apples because it's infinite when infinity doesn't work that way you arithmatic fool!
On the subject of math...
James, what's your favorite type of number? Real? Unreal? Imaginary?
Real
RealGuys, this is why I don't Advanced Math in public. Because people honestly start trying to convince me that there's oranges in the infinite apples because it's infinite when infinity doesn't work that way you arithmatic fool!
On the subject of math...
James, what's your favorite type of number? Real? Unreal? Imaginary?
I'd like to point out with all due honesty, ANebulousAndSternMistress, that arithmatic, even italicized, is an imaginary word. The adjective you were aiming at is most certainly arithmetical ;-).
All in good humour, from a very foolish person,
Cheers :-) !
P.S. Thank you, James Jacobs, for all your informative and kind answers to peculiar players' inquiries.
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What's wrong with a 10th level halfling rogue having a Stealth modifier of +40?
Dishonest question in the name of fun:
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Depends if that halfling's in a game where the GM gets all worked up about the Stealth rules being broken.
And for the dishonest question... ummmmmm... Kitties?
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Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Believe that's "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" in Latin. Been far too long since I took Latin to formulate a response, however. :)
Wrong Chuck!
Ha! An interesting idea... but no, the 6 second round is purely a game construct, not an in-world thing.Given how intervals of 6 seconds pop up in a lot of magical effects and many "mundane" ones and 10 (humanoid cultures are alreddy naturally fond of base 10 due to having 10 fingers) of them add up to a similarly common minute, does any culture of Golarion use a "round" as an in-universe measure of time?
What are the inhabitants of the other planet's thoughts on spells with effects lasting 24 hours?
But if it were, would you invent a cool etymological reason to call them "rounds"? Hypothetically.
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But if it were, would you invent a cool etymological reason to call them "rounds"? Hypothetically.Ha! An interesting idea... but no, the 6 second round is purely a game construct, not an in-world thing.Given how intervals of 6 seconds pop up in a lot of magical effects and many "mundane" ones and 10 (humanoid cultures are alreddy naturally fond of base 10 due to having 10 fingers) of them add up to a similarly common minute, does any culture of Golarion use a "round" as an in-universe measure of time?
What are the inhabitants of the other planet's thoughts on spells with effects lasting 24 hours?
I... suppose?
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3) In Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, the denizens there range from strange horned men to yaks to shantaks to giant walking mountains to strange purple spiders to unknowable weird priests. In Mountains of Madness, it's suggested the central Antarctica is in fact Leng, which means elder things and shoggoths and giant albino penguins live there. In some of his other stories, Leng is suggested to be a plateau in high China or Nepal or Tibet, but that doesn't really say what lives there apart from things that live in that region of the world.
I can't help myself...
Leng is originally derived, I think, from Ling, the semi-mythical kingdom of Gesar, the Tibetan hero. Whereas he seems to be based on a ruler in what is now Kashmir-Afghanistan, who took the Roman title Caesar, Ling is a real place far away from there on the borders of Golog (in Qinghai) and Sichuan, near one of the regions associated with the Eastern Kingdom of Women and the Yellow Springs, the lands of death and sources of the Yellow River. There are historical and legendary references that corroborate this (in my mythic Earth campaign, that is where I placed it, anyway). Leng is certainly associated with Tsang, which is central Tibet, part of the same cultural region.
It might be linked to the sinister and beautiful city of Yian-Ho, from Chamber's Maker of Moons - he, the inventor of Carcosa - was something of an influence on Lovecraft. This was at the end of the longest river in China, apparently denoting the Yellow River.
Hey James, the spell Create Demiplane has this under the Traits that can be applied.
Seasonal: The demiplane has a seasonal cycle and a light cycle, usually similar to those of a land on the Material Plane, but customizable as you see fit (for example, your demiplane could always be winter, day and night could alternate every 4 hours, and so on).
Did Baba Yaga use a Mythic Version of Create Demiplane (in any of it's forms) that she then overlayed with Golarion to create the Permanent Winter? I have a theory, that she tried to make it Permanent (via Permanency) but the magic didn't 'take hold' so she has to return every 100 years to renew it.
Mr. James Jacobs,
Will the Mythic rules have possible paths or adventure seed ideas for Divine Ascension?
I hope so!
In fact, giving us rules that we can use to, say, some day do a "Test of the Starstone" adventure path, or to stat up a demigod like Dis or Dagon or the Horsemen of the Apocalypse is one of the things that I'm pushing the design team to include in Mythic Adventures.
Man, a Test of the Starstone AP would be so awesome :)
On a slightly more rules related question, do you guys know yet how Mythic Character's XP/level progression will be affected? Mythic levels aren't meant to be attached to XP, but if a party is fighting foes anywhere up to 1.5 times their 'normal' party level then aren't they going to be raking in extra XP? Even if those creatures aren't mythic themselves they'll still be a CR.
Thanks as always for your time :)
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In wake of the watcher you guys introduced the idea of sanity checks as well as sanity damage for monsters that cause them. Do you have any rules anywhere that would help figuring out what the sanity damage would be for viewing creatures not in wake of the watcher?
Also how would one recover lost sanity in pathfinder outside of the way mentioned in the GMG (which is basically go crazy and have someone undo your sanity issue)?
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It was the second edit tackled at the end of a post about infinity so you probably missed it, but I had a question about enchanting shields as weapons and armor at the same time.
"It is possible to stack weapon and armor enhancement on a shield?
To what limit: +10 total or +10 weapon and +10 armor?"
To make it clearer, can I have a bashing shield with a +5 to hit and damage and a +5 to AC (assuming I have the ability to attack with the shield and use it for the AC at the same time)?
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Creative Director
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Hey James, the spell Create Demiplane has this under the Traits that can be applied.
Seasonal: The demiplane has a seasonal cycle and a light cycle, usually similar to those of a land on the Material Plane, but customizable as you see fit (for example, your demiplane could always be winter, day and night could alternate every 4 hours, and so on).Did Baba Yaga use a Mythic Version of Create Demiplane (in any of it's forms) that she then overlayed with Golarion to create the Permanent Winter? I have a theory, that she tried to make it Permanent (via Permanency) but the magic didn't 'take hold' so she has to return every 100 years to renew it.
Nope.
What Baba Yaga did is a mythic effect, since she herself is mythic, and since those rules are not yet complete, and since even when that book's done it's unlikely to pull the curtain back on how Baba Yaga does what she does anyway... more information about what's going on with Irrisen will need to wait for the Reign of Winter adventure path.
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On a slightly more rules related question, do you guys know yet how Mythic Character's XP/level progression will be affected? Mythic levels aren't meant to be attached to XP, but if a party is fighting foes anywhere up to 1.5 times their 'normal' party level then aren't they going to be raking in extra XP? Even if those creatures aren't mythic themselves they'll still be a CR.
Thanks as always for your time :)
We have some ideas on how you'll gain mythic power. It won't be via XP. Fighting powerful mythic foes WILL still grant you XP, but those points will only serve to raise your character level. They won't necessarily increase your mythicness.
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In wake of the watcher you guys introduced the idea of sanity checks as well as sanity damage for monsters that cause them. Do you have any rules anywhere that would help figuring out what the sanity damage would be for viewing creatures not in wake of the watcher?
Also how would one recover lost sanity in pathfinder outside of the way mentioned in the GMG (which is basically go crazy and have someone undo your sanity issue)?
Nope.
The sanity rules were included in Wake of the Watcher as a playful nod to the Call of Cthulhu game, as an optional rule for GMs to use in that adventure. They were never really intended to have widespread application beyond that adventure. Sanity and madness works better in Pathfinder if it's treated with the rules in Gamemastery Guide, in my opinion.
Is mythic Demiplane creation on the list of things you and yours are looking into for the mythic rules?
On a different note: What is a good follow up module or series of models to the Price of Immortality trilogy?
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Okay, so as a massive fan of the Mendevian Crusades and the Worldwound, I've been waiting for an adventure path like <working title>Demonblight Crusade</working title> for quite a while now and my head's about to explode from all the things I'd like to see happen in such an adventure path. In an effort to manage my expectations just a tad, here's a couple of question about the adventure path, even though I'm well aware that the adventure is still a year away at this point.
1) Will parts of the adventure path take place in Mendev? Or is it straight into the demon's den?
2) If the answer to the first question is 'yes, parts of the adventure path will take place in Mendev', will parts of the adventure path explore some of the themes central to Mendev, such as factions (holy crusaders, mercenaries/soldiers of fortune, locals), witch hunts and paranoia, oppression, etc.?
3) Is there any chance we'll get to see a Heroes of Battle-style approach taken at some point in the adventure path, in that heroes will be actively involved in a large battle between crusaders and demons and that their actions during the battle will help determine its outcome?
4) Will the forces of heaven play a role in the adventure path at all?
5) With the mythic rules likely being playtested and developed while writers are writing the 6 installments of this adventure path, I see a potential pitfall in that the design and development might suffer a bit from being dependent on a system that'll be tweaked and changed at least to some extent before it's ready to be shipped off to the printer. The question is, has the fact that the two are being developed simultaneously had any effect on how you approach the design and development of this adventure path as opposed to how you normally design and develop adventure paths? For instance, has it forced you to start working on Demonblight Crusade much earlier than you normally would so you have time enough to tweak it to fit the final incarnation of the mythic rules?
Again, I realize that it's very early in the process for this adventure path and that you probably can't give ultra detailed answers to any of my questions. This is just something I'm super excited about (and will continue to be regardless of the answers given) and this is really an attempt by me to manage my expectations. :)