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Is there any chance that Paizo will finally offer the many fans of 3.5 gaming an alternative to the much-despised Vancian casting rules?
From what's been said, the answer is no. Why? because James Jacobs says so; wishes of the consumer be damned.
Wasn't that one of the most requested changes to 3.5 rules during the initial playtesting for PFRPG after all?
Indeed it was, with most saying it was a perfect mechanic for sorcerers.
While I understand that the Vancian system isn't everyone's favorite... it IS a favorite system for the vast majority of those who play this game, regardless of its edition.Yeah, possibly, for spellcasters. It is rather distinctively psionic, though.
Put it this way: changing psionics from pp to vancian is like going from 3.5 to 4e.
Or like going from OD&D to AD&D.
Seriously, what did you do and how did you do it. The things you did to arrive at that comparison?
The Vancian magic system can be made flexible enough to do this easily. Examine my previous posts in this thread.
Besides, psions were already sorcerers. They were just sorcerers with unbalanced content to pick from.
Here's what you're missing - many people on these threads have said that they would find mental powers acceptable in the game if they were repackaged as mysticism, but you've insisted that the word "psion" is part of the fantasy genre (I just gave evidence that it's not). Now, you're trying to repackage psionics not as mental powers but as magic. Like I've said before, debating with you is like whack-a-mole.Take the top twenty biggest selling fantasy books of all time. How often does the word "Magic" appear in the books in that list? How often does the word "Psion" appear?How often does it work in the Vancian style?
Harry Dresden has an inner focus of energy he depletes when he uses magic. Every so often he can overchannel himself to create bigger and more powerful spells, though at cost to his actual physical health.
Hmmm. What does that sound like?
Here's the lynchpin you're missing - psionics is magic.
Given your own propensity to try and insert tangential issues into debates and avoid the point of someone else's argument whenever they are correct, Lilith's Thrall, I think this is really a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Besides, psions were already sorcerers. They were just sorcerers with unbalanced content to pick from.While I understand that the Vancian system isn't everyone's favorite... it IS a favorite system for the vast majority of those who play this game, regardless of its edition.Yeah, possibly, for spellcasters. It is rather distinctively psionic, though.
Put it this way: changing psionics from pp to vancian is like going from 3.5 to 4e.
Sometimes a little reading goes a long way before making blanket statements that aren't true.
There are lots of people who do believe magic exists. Not a single piece of literature about Magick, from Wicca, druidism, shamanism, and High Magic(Jewish) as well as spirit summoning, I have read, none causes you to forget any spells once you have learned the process to cast them.
Vacian magic system has nothing based in historical context. The only books I have read in fantasy, or movies I have seen shows Vacian only when dealing with D&D related materials.
Please, don't bring real world faiths and their rituals into this. All the pagans, which is more then a few, I know don't call their religous practices magic but rituals and ceremony. You'll find the same thing in main stream religions. None of them call down collumns of fire, shoot force bolts out of their hands, etc. Even if it was possible I'd hate to think about the time and money they need for just preparing for such a ritual, let alone actually performing it.
Magic has no historical context, only mythological. The only time I've seen accounts of some one throwing lightning bolts around are by guys named Thor or Zeus.
Several people have given reasons why they don't see a vancian system as "fire and forget". I look at it and see that the system forces you to not blow everything you have on your particular hammer all the time and it makes you think ahead. To me it says that when D&D was originally concieved that they went with a vancian style system because they thought it was more a balanced way of doing magic with classes that was non-spell casters classes. Palladium, which uses a system similar to D&D and uses a point system for both magic and psionics, actually has it written into their books that they don't look at balancing one class against the other. I'm not saying that spell points is particularly unbalancing just that I can see how it can be considered when looking at game balance. Sometimes you have to favor rules over flavor when it comes to game design if your trying for balance.
So, rather then go through this whole thread I'm just gonna post my views on power point and vancian systems. Feel free to ignore whats already been said.
I like the vancian system. Mostly because I love the dying earth series and therefore visualize it well in game. It also allowed for an interesting differenciation between sorceror and wizard. I dont mind power points, but if you create them you have to give the sorceror a reason to still exist. Power points as they existed in unearthed arcana essentially remove the sorceror from play as it gives their principle advantage (spontaneous casting) to the wizard. A caster with a much smaller range of spells to choose from in exchange for a few additional points is all but pointless. So basically any power point system I would use would have to come with something to keep the sorceror relavent, or it would never find a place at my table.
From what I have gathered, the power point system isn't the biggest issue people have with the 3.5 psionics model, and it's the thing that the majority of the psionics fans want to keep.
I've got to disagree here. I've seen a lot of people turn down psionics, on the forumn and in RL, because it was an additional system of rules.
Fortunately we can agree on the fact that having Paizo do one and DSP do the other is the best of both worlds.
[...]It sounds like the core of the problem is that you're not a fan of the Vancian magic system the game was built on and has remained with up through several editions, culminating in this case with Pathfinder's RPG.
While I understand that the Vancian system isn't everyone's favorite... it IS a favorite system for the vast majority of those who play this game, regardless of its edition. It's not something we wanted to throw out and redesign with Pathfinder, and it's not something we're going to abandon anytime soon—even if and ESPECIALLY if we do a psionics type book.
[...]
Darn, I've been discovered :-)
You're right, I'm not a fan of this magic system. But I understand that others like it, and I have no problem playing with them, and occasionally (gasp!) play such a spellcaster.
Since WotC has stopped 3.5 and Paizo has Pathfinder RPG, there's only one set of core rules for recent-day D&D (forgetting 4E, here). Third party products generally improve on the core rules, they seldom change them on such a deep level.
I'm still in the "disappointed section", but not in the "angry corner" anymore, because I'm working on a set of house-rules to allow players (and their characters) to use an alternative way of memorizing/casting their spells. Oh, and their future psychic powers, too.
And I thank you for taking time to participate in these boards.
You can kinda explain prepared casting that way (it makes some sense, albeit being easily the least intuitive way of handling magic ever conceived by humanity), but how does that work for spontaneous casters? They no longer have the mental energy to cast another fireball today, but somehow do have enough to cast three magic missiles, a silent image, an enlarge person, a color spray, two levitates, a see invisibility, and two scorching rays? That's like...completely nonsensical.Depends what you're comparing the wizard to. (...)
A Vancian wizard is like a walking magic crossbow: it takes a while to load him, but all he needs to do is to pull the trigger and you've got the best weapon of the arsenal. Once the bolt is released, your "crossbow" is useless until it gets reloaded.(...)
I disagree. It DOES make some sense, in a way that it is explainable. The model is solid, and you can come-up with equally solid fluff to support the current magic system.
I can see and understand that you don't like the system. That's fine and believe me, I see where you're coming from. I used to despise the Vancian system with passion. I explored many other avenues, all attempting to fit D&D from 2E AD&D to Pathfinder (I skipped 3.0 for some reasons). Many of those attempts succeeded, at least partially. Most added a very interesting twist to the game. I'm not gonna go in too much details, but it the end, I made peace with mr. Vance and mr. Gygax and re-instated the Vancian system in my games (I even brought back the 2E AD&D schools of opposition diagram).
I did so because I saw the sense in the Vancian system, and I managed to make the fluff (or alter the fluff) to work for me. Thing is, you cannot compare a wizard to an artist. It's an arcane science that obeys its own rules, but the logic is there if you are willing enough to see it. It like quantum physics vs Newton physics, both exist as accurate, coexisting models with drastically different approach to describe two drastically different scales of environment. If you expect the wizard to cast spells as a musician plays its tunes, you are indeed going to be disappointed, but spontaneous magic might work. Remember that a sorcerer CAN use a 4th level spell slot to cast a 1st level spell if he wants, so the flexibility is there, to a certain extent. A power point system only allows you to deconstruct the spell slots, but the real problem behind the whole thing are the spells themselves. In order to truly make the power point system work, you'd have to deconstruct the spells as well...
'findel
Sometimes a little reading goes a long way before making blanket statements that aren't true.Besides, psions were already sorcerers. They were just sorcerers with unbalanced content to pick from.While I understand that the Vancian system isn't everyone's favorite... it IS a favorite system for the vast majority of those who play this game, regardless of its edition.Yeah, possibly, for spellcasters. It is rather distinctively psionic, though.
Put it this way: changing psionics from pp to vancian is like going from 3.5 to 4e.
I beg to differ.
Sorry if I sound condescending, I don't mean to direct that tone at you. You're a swell guy, but I really have to go with my past experiences and your well-advised reading through the rulebook a second time.
Some psionics powers are just flat out better than their non-psionic counterparts.
Like, I dunno, dominate person.
Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 4
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7
As the dominate person spell, except as noted here.
Augment
You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, fey, giant, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.
2. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider in addition to the creature types mentioned above.
3. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.
4. If you spend 1 additional power point, this power’s duration is 1 hour rather than concentration. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 day rather than concentration. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 day per manifester level rather than concentration.
In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
Yeah, that's so they can make it work at higher levels and at the level you get it at it isn't as good, but the fact that pp don't scale up in the same way as spell levels makes it very silly. There are a bunch of other examples like this of what for other casters would be like handing them free metamagic feats- At a time when that would have been even more crazy. Imbalanced with itself? No. Imbalanced with even the insanity that is core 3.5? Yes.
What about the pure and simple balance that is a low level blasting spell? Oh, this'll be like scorching ray, right?
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Kineticist 2
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target: Up to five creatures or objects; no two targets can be more than 15 ft. apart.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You release a powerful missile of energy of the chosen type at your foe. The missile deals 3d6 points of damage to each creature or object you target, to the maximum of five targets. You cannot hit the same target multiple times with the same manifestation of this power.
Cold
A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold missile is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity
Manifesting a missile of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire
A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic
A missile of this energy type deals -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.
Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6) and its save DC increases by 1.
Wait, it hits how many people.
You can make its save do what.
Oh my god this blasting spell is freaking amazing.
So amazing that I would never pick this over scorching ray at 11th level.
So at 11th level an 11d6 model would cost me only 11 pp. And deal more damage than a wizard's blasting at that level, as well as having the advantage of being good at low level. It provides a save, but if this was a touch attack no one would play anything else until the DM started making dungeons entirely filled with golems.
And I can do this at least 10 times a day, probably 13 or 14 if my casting stat is high enough. That's at least five encounters with mooks that I mop up singlehandedly.
Plus, the force ability can be used to defeat any melee or ranged fighter by hitting their weapon. That's right, sunder with a spell, no attack roll necessary. They get a save, sure, but it doesn't take much to break a weapon when the DM doesn't want to hand out enchanted and adamantine weapons like they're surplus socks the BBEG had no use for.
With the sonic ability, you can also break stuff that normally shouldn't break, like armor, shields, scrolls, rings, divine symbols, spellbooks (After breaking all the wizard's clothing of course to see where the so called great magician hid the little rascal). I mean come on, people! This is like the second time I'm reading this and I've already found the most insane use for a power that is only supposed to be for dealing damage: Defeating other spellcasters in ways they cannot prevent except by increasing their bad saves, and killing fighters at 3rd level while killing their weapon, armor, shield, backpack, etc.
Empower that bad boy (For 2 power points! what) to just murder everything that isn't a golem. And you can start your way on the path to destruction for one power known and one feat.
That and the autohypnosis skill. What the hell is that skill about? Oh I don't take fear, poison or dying once I'm above a certain level. How does that even begin to make sense, and why shouldn't every character ever, especially those with a low fort save, put ranks into this skill?
Preempting the UMD argument, this isn't really like that at all. UMD is like "Emulate a spellcaster as a standard action." Which can actually be not so useful in the many situations where you haven't gotten prep, your ability scores are too low, etc. Whereas this skill is like "Avoid potential stat damage, dying and being useless. At no action. Get a second save to some of the most common effects in the game! Make fear abilities even more pointless!"
I don't deny that they're a cool concept, but the execution is flawed in terms of the core material, which they were supposed to be balancing it against. They can do cool stuff no other class can. Good! We want that out of every class. If they should be immune to fear, give them fear immunity! If they want another save vs poison, give it to them as a class feature! If they want to affect their powers with metapsionics then good lord hand them that too! But giving them what are basically spell slots with built in metamagic that gives you heighten for your metamagic is kind of absurd when you compare it with the baseline, which is already stupidly good. Even at 7th level, when it's inferior, the wizard can cast maybe two of those at most, three if he spends money and buys/makes a scroll, whereas the psion, with only a 16 casting stat, can cast 8.
But that's all he can do!
Winning four encounters a day with the same ability is more than enough in a day for any other class.
*Really wants to know who originally decided to call it "Vancian"*Gary Gygax. He specifically related the magic system in D&D to that of Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" books. Hence, "Vancian".
Thank you. It's odd though. I've been playing D&D for the better part of two decades and this is the first time I've ever heard the "Vancian" term. Admittedly I've never heard of Jack Vance or "Dying Earth" either. I'd have to say the most widely known Fantasy author of my age has been Salvatore. -His- stuff I know, heh.
Is there a well-known author who widely used a Power Point System in his or her Fantasy novels?
I'd have to say the most widely known Fantasy author of my age has been Salvatore.
who?
Seriously, this falls along the lines of 'rolling' vs 'point buy' when creating characters: Stan Lee created Peter Parker and Spiderman as a whole character. Each part of the whole was fitted from the start not randomly assembled. Each episode, issue, etc. played to his strengths and abilities, while showcasing his multitude of failings. Literary characters mysticly 'have' just the right spell, tool, etc., because the author decides they do, be they Gandalf or Mike Hammer, or come up with an alternate or oddball solution as per Macguyver. Players do not have that luxury and need flexibility to deal with whatever the GM throws at them.
p.s. If RAS is your mark, please branch out! There are far better inspirations and thought provoking authors out there. But if he's at Dragoncon, I'll give him your best.
My favorite fictional magick system is from Asprin's Myth series. For most of the series the main character knew fewer than half a dozen spells, and his ability to use them depended on the abundance of magickal energy in his immediate area (ley lines, yay!) -- but for all practical purposes were essentially unlimited use as long as he didn't try to do too much at one time.
I guess that's why I like the Warlock.
While I admit to ignoring points you raised that are patently fridiculous (such as your belief that an advantage of familiars over psicrystals is that they've got combat stats - as if anybody would send their familiar into melée), I'm not aware of ignoring any substantial points you've made.Here's what you're missing - many people on these threads have said that they would find mental powers acceptable in the game if they were repackaged as mysticism, but you've insisted that the word "psion" is part of the fantasy genre (I just gave evidence that it's not). Now, you're trying to repackage psionics not as mental powers but as magic. Like I've said before, debating with you is like whack-a-mole.Take the top twenty biggest selling fantasy books of all time. How often does the word "Magic" appear in the books in that list? How often does the word "Psion" appear?How often does it work in the Vancian style?
Harry Dresden has an inner focus of energy he depletes when he uses magic. Every so often he can overchannel himself to create bigger and more powerful spells, though at cost to his actual physical health.
Hmmm. What does that sound like?
Here's the lynchpin you're missing - psionics is magic.
Given your own propensity to try and insert tangential issues into debates and avoid the point of someone else's argument whenever they are correct, Lilith's Thrall, I think this is really a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
I have had a player send a familiar into combat. I rolled a 1 so the familiar lived, but it does happen.
stuff about imbalance
First the powers have to scale.
Second I won't even go into the splats books. I will stay with pathfinder core which has powered wizards down a bit.Dominate Monster=9th level spell=17th level caster, and it works for days per level which is at least 17 days
Let us see what I can do with 17 power points for dominate
First we start with a base of 7
4 points allows us to affect any monster not immune to mind affects
That is a total of 11. The issue is that the save is still based off of a 4th level power so most monsters will make the save.
I know someone will save I can up the save. I have 6 more PP I can use that ups the save DC by 3 more so now I have the save DC equal to a 7th level spell even though my power points are equal to a ninth level spell so let's recap
Dominate monster: Dc=10+9+int modifier, and it works for days
Dominate: DC=10+4(augmented to 7)+int mod, and works only for as long as long as I concentrate on it.
I think Dominate monster comes out ahead
Energy Missile was changed in complete psionics to only up the DC for every 2pp's spent. I know WoTC should have just put the errata in the SRD, but that does not change the facts. Yes, I have that decrepit abomination of a book :(.
Enough with my sadness.
Energy Missile
Base PP=3
I spend 8pp's to do 11d6. this also increases the save by 4 to the level of a 6th level spell.
11d6 averages to about 38.5 if they dont make the save. At that level energy resistance and high saves make the 17 points of damage a high possibility. What are you fighting at level 11 that is wiped out by 17 or even 38 points of damage?
As for the empower thing let's say you overchannel and empower, because if you don't overchannel you don't get to empower the power at it's highest capability. There is also the fact that you have to take two feats to overpower without taking damage, but lets get back to the numbers.
If you overpower(after overchanneling)you get 57(failed save), and 25(made save) which are still not encounter breaking numbers.
Fireball(empowered) and Chain Lightening both outperform this spell.
The ability to target objects is nice, but depending on the type of energy used the hardness may still apply, and the save still has to be made.
You get a point for attacking weapons, but saying this spell wipe encounters loses points. Doing it 10 times a day means you are out of PP before the 4th encounter because you like to do suboptimal things.
There is also no force ability. Your options are cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.
While the autohypnosis may be a little to good, anyone can take it, so that is basically a wash.
I am not saying there is nothing wrong with psionics, but it is more balanced than magic, and once you run the numbers or check things out in a non-biased way it is a little more clear.
PS: When someone throws the word imbalance out without saying how, they are normally going off of hear say. I was not upset I just wish more people read the rules before making comments, not just on psionics, but anything.
Is there any chance that Paizo will finally offer the many fans of 3.5 gaming an alternative to the much-despised Vancian casting rules?From what's been said, the answer is no. Why? because James Jacobs says so; wishes of the consumer be damned.
Again this is incorrect, Paizo's words of power alt magic system will be in the ultimate magic book. It will be an alt system that all casters would use.
Paizo however will not be mix and matching and will not switch the core magic used in products. But they are giving folks and alt magic system.
I am kinda interested in what they do there myself.
While I admit to ignoring points you raised that are patently fridiculous (such as your belief that an advantage of familiars over psicrystals is that they've got combat stats - as if anybody would send their familiar into melée), I'm not aware of ignoring any substantial points you've made.
This is my point - you do not engage in debate, you simply dismiss and do not even answer the issue, on the basis of one point when there are several. There were several points listed there, and you didn't engage with any of them - you claimed specifically that psicrystals are broken, and listed the features they get that familiars don't - I then listed the things familiars get that psi-crystals don't, and you ignore it. You say now that one point was ridiculous, and I'll grant you that a familiar won't often get involved in combat, but what happens if you send it to scout ahead and it gets attacked by a natural predator? For a psicrystal to fly is broken, according to you, but I pointed out that psicrystals cannot fly until the manifester is 9th level, while some familiars can fly from first level. Do you respond? No. What am I supposed to assume, save that you have no answer to respond with?
You come up with some very good points sometimes, but you're a frustrating person to debate with because you don't answer issues - instead you sidestep them, such as when I pointed out that wizards and psions both use intelligence - your answer was to say that in your opinion psions should use wisdom. What has that to do with the discussion on balance between psionics and arcane magic? Nothing, and it makes it look like you either don't know what you are talking about or that you have no answer, so instead you dodge the issue. That may not be the case, but you aren't doing yourself any favours.
While I admit to ignoring points you raised that are patently fridiculous (such as your belief that an advantage of familiars over psicrystals is that they've got combat stats - as if anybody would send their familiar into melée), I'm not aware of ignoring any substantial points you've made.Here's what you're missing - many people on these threads have said that they would find mental powers acceptable in the game if they were repackaged as mysticism, but you've insisted that the word "psion" is part of the fantasy genre (I just gave evidence that it's not). Now, you're trying to repackage psionics not as mental powers but as magic. Like I've said before, debating with you is like whack-a-mole.Take the top twenty biggest selling fantasy books of all time. How often does the word "Magic" appear in the books in that list? How often does the word "Psion" appear?How often does it work in the Vancian style?
Harry Dresden has an inner focus of energy he depletes when he uses magic. Every so often he can overchannel himself to create bigger and more powerful spells, though at cost to his actual physical health.
Hmmm. What does that sound like?
Here's the lynchpin you're missing - psionics is magic.
Given your own propensity to try and insert tangential issues into debates and avoid the point of someone else's argument whenever they are correct, Lilith's Thrall, I think this is really a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Aren't you the one that once argued that familiars were exceedingly powerful because a person with UMD could use a familiar to apply scrolls or wands in combat?
Some psionics powers are just flat out better than their non-psionic counterparts.
Like, I dunno, dominate person.
** spoiler omitted **
Some powers have these options - just remember, it's a 4th level power, so a telepath (and you have to be a speciality telepath to take this power) would need to be 7th level to take it. He would them have to be 9th level to dominate, say a fey, or 11th level to be able to augment enough to try and dominate a dragon. So the save DC rises? That's because by taking this power you have the equivelant of a tree of spells, and the higher level spells would have higher casting DCs.
This is where psionic powers are different, and more versatile, than spells. However, this applies to less than half of the available powers, and most have less augmentation options (most that have them in fact have only one). This is also why psions have less powers known than wizards or sorcerers have spells - 36 compared to the sorcerer's 52, for example.
As for Energy Missile, I am unaware of any rule that allows you to use it to attack a person's equipment and not the person - I admit it doesn't say you cannot and it does say you can target 'objects', but I always had the impression that meant doors, statues, roof supports etc. and not small items held by a person. I think it's one of those cases where a DM would normally give you a very firm "no munchkin sh*t at my table" look and give you a very firm "NO." I believe that somewhere in the rules is one that says that you cannot target a person's gear unless you make a sunder, and I would certainly say that a reflex-half save power is not precise enough to do so.
On the subject, though, it should be pointed out that while augmenting damaging powers does often increase their save DC, it also increases their cost. At 11th level you are doing the equivelant of expending a 6th level spell-slot to throw a 2nd level spell when you augment this power to do 11d6 base damage. An 11th level wizard might only do 10d6 with his fireball, but at least it only costs him a 3rd level spell-slot. It's not a 'heighten' effect either - although you blew the resources of a 6th level power on it, and it has the appropriate save DC, it's still a 2nd level power and will bounce off a lesser globe of invulnerability without any issue.
I always had the impression that meant doors, statues, roof supports etc. and not small items held by a person. I think it's one of those cases where a DM would normally give you a very firm "no munchkin sh*t at my table" look and give you a very firm "NO."
That was my interpretation also, but I could not find a RAW rule that states objects means only unattended objects. I don't however see it as to much different than disintegrate, and by the time you augment a power high enough to almost auto-destroy a weapon or armor they are about the same level.
I would also ask a player how he would feel if my NPC's did it to them-->That is what I do with all munchkin tactics. It normally changes people's minds.
From what I recall it will have an open playtest and it will be an alt system that replaces vanacin casting for all classes. So it will have to take them all into account. I find myself wondering just what it will be. Sounds somewhat like true sorcery Green roinin put out a few years back.Which was interesting if complex system with nothing to do with spell slots at all.
I guess to me the Vanaican style of magic is not to far out there. If you look at magic as tiers or circles with orders of power from 1 to 9 it starts to click. As you grow in power your able to train your mind to focus and control more and more "levels" of magic
You cast your spells in the morning while leaving them hanging there ready to be set off with a few words or components. They are rituals you simply "hold" in check with your well trained mind
Now spontaneous casters are a different beast, there minds or will have evolved to have an innate talent to drawl and hold so much power from each tier
To be honest it's not as far removed from the "mana pool" as people seem to think. The "Laws" of Vanican magic however do limit you and keep you from boosting higher tiered powers or dumping "Points" into lower tired power, In essence your "Mana" is locked into tiers as well. Each new tier of magic has it's own "pool" of power you can draw from
Now some magic uses have found ways to "cheat" the laws by pulling power from a diffident pool "meta magics" but as a whole your limited by magics laws, a series that may be in place naturally as a way for mortal minds to handle such things. After all the mind tends to always try and protect itself and this to me is simply how it does it
Anyhow that is just my thoughts on it
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Is there any chance that Paizo will finally offer the many fans of 3.5 gaming an alternative to the much-despised Vancian casting rules?From what's been said, the answer is no. Why? because James Jacobs says so; wishes of the consumer be damned.Again this is incorrect, Paizo's words of power alt magic system will be in the ultimate magic book. It will be an alt system that all casters would use.
Paizo however will not be mix and matching and will not switch the core magic used in products. But they are giving folks and alt magic system.
I am kinda interested in what they do there myself.
I forgot about words of power honestly; mostly because from what I've heard it's a seed based casting mechanic which is even worse. If they are attempting THAT, the Paizo team should be aware they should try every combination of seed they make... or you'll end up with a spell that increases a bite weapons size 63 times like the last attempt at seed casting I saw did.
If you'd quit posting epic length posts, you'd find me responding to them more regularly. Giving a comprehensive reply to an epic length post from an IPhone is a pain in the...
You raise many points for us to respond to, and I tend to want to give complete and concise answers, sorry about that.
I disagree. It DOES make some sense, in a way that it is explainable. The model is solid, and you can come-up with equally solid fluff to support the current magic system.
I can see and understand that you don't like the system. That's fine and believe me, I see where you're coming from. I used to despise the Vancian system with passion. I explored many other avenues, all attempting to fit D&D from 2E AD&D to Pathfinder (I skipped 3.0 for some reasons). Many of those attempts succeeded, at least partially. Most added a very interesting twist to the game. I'm not gonna go in too much details, but it the end, I made peace with mr. Vance and mr. Gygax and re-instated the Vancian system in my games (I even brought back the 2E AD&D schools of opposition diagram).I did so because I saw the sense in the Vancian system, and I managed to make the fluff (or alter the fluff) to work for me. Thing is, you cannot compare a wizard to an artist. It's an arcane science that obeys its own rules, but the logic is there if you are willing enough to see it. It like quantum physics vs Newton physics, both exist as accurate, coexisting models with drastically different approach to describe two drastically different scales of environment. If you expect the wizard to cast spells as a musician plays its tunes, you are indeed going to be disappointed, but spontaneous magic might work. Remember that a sorcerer CAN use a 4th level spell slot to cast a 1st level spell if he wants, so the flexibility is there, to a certain extent. A power point system only allows you to deconstruct the spell slots, but the real problem behind the whole thing are the spells themselves. In order to truly make the power point system work, you'd have to deconstruct the spells as well...
'findel
True, I don't like the Vancian system. At all. One could go so far as to say I despise it, in fact. However, I did say that for prepared casters it kinda makes sense, it's just ridiculously counterintuitive and inelegant. What makes no sense is using it for spontaneous casters, because they don't precast a handful of spells almost completely to then finish casting later on, they're doing it all on the fly.
True, I don't like the Vancian system. At all. One could go so far as to say I despise it, in fact. However, I did say that for prepared casters it kinda makes sense, it's just ridiculously counterintuitive and inelegant. What makes...
I disagree with the counterintuitive and inelegant argument. It's a genre, and whether you enjoy it or not, it has an elegance of its own. Its like saying that the color blue is ugly; it may be your opinion, but some would beg to differ...
That being said, I like the typical prepared Vancian magic for Wizards, and... well, pretty much only wizards. Its fine to say that vancian magic is an arcane science on its own, but personally, I would prefer if divine magic worked otherwise. I find spontaneous casting more appealing for clerics and druids. Yet, I'm fine with the limits of the spontaneous casting for the divine realms; the gods too have their capricious ways of granting powers to mortals...
For the sake of completeness, I created a Rune-Caster as a prepared divine spellcaster (drawing rune = spell preparation), but I play other divine spellcasters like sorcerers in my games. But I feel I'm getting off-topic here...
I disagree with the counterintuitive and inelegant argument. It's a genre, and whether you enjoy it or not, it has an elegance of its own. Its like saying that the color blue is ugly; it may be your opinion, but some would beg to differ...
That being said, I like the typical prepared Vancian magic for Wizards, and... well, pretty much only wizards. Its fine to say that vancian magic is an arcane science on its own, but personally, I would prefer if divine magic worked otherwise. I find spontaneous casting more appealing for clerics and druids. Yet, I'm fine with the limits of the spontaneous casting for the divine realms; the gods too have their capricious ways of granting powers to mortals...
For the sake of completeness, I created a Rune-Caster as a prepared divine spellcaster (drawing rune = spell preparation), but I play other divine spellcasters like sorcerers in my games. But I feel I'm getting off-topic here...
So how does that explain sorcerers and bards then? Considering that they aren't getting their power from any deities, there's no "capricious ways" to be interfering, no? Oracles too, for that matter, seeing as they don't draw power from any given god.
So how does that explain sorcerers and bards then? Considering that they aren't getting their power from any deities, there's no "capricious ways" to be interfering, no? Oracles too, for that matter, seeing as they don't draw power from any given god.
I mis-red your previous post; the "counterintuitive and inelegant" applied to spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is a bit of an afterthought that came with 3rd edition. In other words, well after the creation of the magic system for D&D and, to be honest, it shows. That I agree with you.
Spellcasting works in a kind of quantum way; there are several levels of (magical) energy, 9 in our case. That seems to be true for all spellcasters, regardless of their realm of magic or spellcasting tradition. Its kind of an universal truth, a law in fact.
Just like in quantum physics, you need to "fill" a certain number of 1st levels in order to access the second level of energy. Note that there are no level 1.5; its either on the first step or the second step. In game terms, you need to master a certain number of 1st level spell slot before getting access to 2nd level spell slots, and so forth. We, as players, know that. Perhaps Wizards know that as well, but not all spellcaster need to know it. Its intuitively understandable, a bit like how you need to learn how to ski properly before you can make air figures. But that part isn't very hard to rationalize anyway.
What's usually turning people off, is once I've cast my last 2nd level spell, why can't I cast another 2nd level spell while I still have a 3rd level spell slot and two 1st level spell slots?
For one thing, I'm pretty sure that you can, by RAW, cast a 2nd level spell using a 3rd level spell slot. Why can't I partition my 2nd level spell into two 1st level spells slot? Well, that's part of the ways magic works. Personally, I think it's one of the charms of the Vancian system, others find that it's one of its biggest weakness, as a power point system would allow me to do that.
Again, It comes to a matter of taste. I happen to like it, but I didn't used to. In my many experiments about alternative magic system, I realized that magic needs its limits, not only for game balance, but for its fluff. Otherwise magic loses some of its... magic. There needs to be a balance between rationality and mystery, things that are known and things that are not understood. Vancian magic strikes a good compromise IMO.
'findel
Unless of course you've had a diehard wish to play a 3.5 style of psionic within PFS, as you're permanently out of luck in that score.
Honestly this is a good thing, A PFS GM would then be required to either hunt down the XPH or print off the SRD then be required to know and learn a whole new system.
I think you would find the number of PFS GM's greatly dropping. Making it work off the core casting rules really does not dramatically increase the GM's work load of rules he must know. You can bring the book with you and he can look lover it in a few mins, see the abilities you have and make notes
Keeping psionics point based honestly forever bars it from PFS
*Really wants to know who originally decided to call it "Vancian"*Gary Gygax. He specifically related the magic system in D&D to that of Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" books. Hence, "Vancian".Thank you. It's odd though. I've been playing D&D for the better part of two decades and this is the first time I've ever heard the "Vancian" term. Admittedly I've never heard of Jack Vance or "Dying Earth" either. I'd have to say the most widely known Fantasy author of my age has been Salvatore. -His- stuff I know, heh.
Is there a well-known author who widely used a Power Point System in his or her Fantasy novels?
I know of none who goes so far as to *quantify* in numbers the amount of magic that they can control. Then again, how many authors write about hit points, saving throws, and D20s? If by "power point" you mean "mana" or some analog of it, there are plenty. Many authors conceive of magical force as a type of supernatural fluid subject to the law of conservation. . . ie, mana.
Off the top of my head, Robert Jordan, Trudy Canavan, David Eddings, probably Raymond Feist, George Lucas, and many others. Heck, any story in which the protagonist is a budding mage normally uses the 'mana' model.
As much as I dislike Jordan's writing on literary grounds, his conception of magic is very elegant.
Tolkien (and George Martin) actually have very *low* magic worlds, by fantasy standards. Which is probably one of the reasons why I like their books.
So why doesn't the power point/mana system get a fancy name? Maybe "Feistian"... Ok, I've been being slightly facetious but on some level I'm serious. I really have to chuckle every time I hear the word "Vancian", anyway.
Keeping psionics point based honestly forever bars it from PFS
PFS used to be core 3.5 only, so this is hardly big news. The surprise is including stuff from the APG (so all PFS DMs will have to buy that or download the stuff and learn it), frankly, but as I only play PFS at conventions, I can live with that. As for psionics, I know DMs that are willing to play it as I am, so no problem there either.
The only thing I think is regrettable is that Paizo are sticking to a 'one magic' model, where I feel that giving players a choice is more constructive. 3.5 had several forms of magic (Tome of Magic, Psionics, Incarnum), and although some were not very successful at least they proposed new ideas.
That said, Paizo are concentrating on what they are good at, there are plenty of 3pps out there that are good at other things.
I do agree, I think Paizo are allow to much stuff in, which is one of the things that keeps me from running PFS games as I simply do not own the products they allow and find it a bit daunting to say the lest
So why doesn't the power point/mana system get a fancy name? Maybe "Feistian"... Ok, I've been being slightly facetious but on some level I'm serious. I really have to chuckle every time I hear the word "Vancian", anyway.
I think it should go the other way and drop the fancy elite name off what should be called the "Spell Slot" system.
So why doesn't the power point/mana system get a fancy name? Maybe "Feistian"... Ok, I've been being slightly facetious but on some level I'm serious. I really have to chuckle every time I hear the word "Vancian", anyway.I think it should go the other way and drop the fancy elite name off what should be called the "Spell Slot" system.
That works as well. >.>
I mis-red your previous post; the "counterintuitive and inelegant" applied to spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is a bit of an afterthought that came with 3rd edition. In other words, well after the creation of the magic system for D&D and, to be honest, it shows. That I agree with you.
Spellcasting works in a kind of quantum way; there are several levels of (magical) energy, 9 in our case. That seems to be true for all spellcasters, regardless of their realm of magic or spellcasting tradition. Its kind of an universal truth, a law in fact.
Just like in quantum physics, you need to "fill" a certain number of 1st levels in order to access the second level of energy. Note that there are no level 1.5; its either on the first step or the second step. In game terms, you need to master a certain number of 1st level spell slot before getting access to 2nd level spell slots, and so forth. We, as players, know that. Perhaps Wizards know that as well, but not all spellcaster need to know it. Its intuitively understandable, a bit like how you need to learn how to ski properly before you can make air figures. But that part isn't very hard to rationalize anyway.
What's usually turning people off, is once I've cast my last 2nd level spell, why can't I cast another 2nd level spell while I still have a 3rd level spell slot and two 1st level spell slots?
For one thing, I'm pretty sure that you can, by RAW, cast a 2nd level spell using a 3rd level spell slot. Why can't I partition my 2nd level spell into two 1st level spells slot? Well, that's part of the ways magic works. I say its part of the charms of the Vancian system, others find its one of its biggest weakness, as a power point system would let you do that.
Again, It comes to a matter of taste. I happen to like it, but I didn't used to. In my many experiments about alternative magic system, I realized that magic needs its limits, not only for game balance, but otherwise magic loses some of its... magic. There need to be a balance between rationality and mystery, things that are known and things that are not understood. Vancian magic strike a good compromise IMO.
'findel
Well, that's a much better explanation of it than I've ever heard, but it still seems terribly artificial. Especially once you figure in that you don't need to cast your highest level first and lose access to it if the lower slots aren't "filled" anymore, or that high ability scores would let you fill those lower slots (and thus should give you access to higher) well before you get it by class.
And for the record, "counterintuitive and inelegant" applied to both prepared and spontaneous. It is a matter of taste, true...but over the years playing and reading other messageboards, at least 80% of the comments about magic I've seen were people who dislike Vancian. In fact, until...well, this thread, I think I'd only seen 2 or 3 people ever actually say they prefer Vancian to...practically any other method of handling magic, whether mana based, fatigue based, skill based, or basically anything else. So I'm pretty confident that "counterintuitive and inelegant" is all but fact...it's just that some people (you crazy types ^_-) happen to like things that happen to be that way.
Unless of course you've had a diehard wish to play a 3.5 style of psionic within PFS, as you're permanently out of luck in that score.From what I have gathered, the power point system isn't the biggest issue people have with the 3.5 psionics model, and it's the thing that the majority of the psionics fans want to keep.I've got to disagree here. I've seen a lot of people turn down psionics, on the forumn and in RL, because it was an additional system of rules.
Fortunately we can agree on the fact that having Paizo do one and DSP do the other is the best of both worlds.
Find me a game system where 100% of the people are satisfied. As far as D&D goes I know people still play AD&D, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, PFPG, 4th Ed, and a number of retro clones. I know there are things I don't like about PFRPG but overall I'm happy with it and Paizo.
and a number of retro clones.
Hackmaster for the win! :-D
So why doesn't the power point/mana system get a fancy name? Maybe "Feistian"... Ok, I've been being slightly facetious but on some level I'm serious. I really have to chuckle every time I hear the word "Vancian", anyway.
Because it's the norm ;p
"Vancian" gets a special name because, well, there's only one place it comes from.
So why doesn't the power point/mana system get a fancy name? Maybe "Feistian"... Ok, I've been being slightly facetious but on some level I'm serious. I really have to chuckle every time I hear the word "Vancian", anyway.Because it's the norm ;p
"Vancian" gets a special name because, well, there's only one place it comes from.
I think this needs addressed. People often forget that "mana" was not always the "norm". At the time when the game was created Vancian was no less the "norm" then any other system of magic. It was the first or one of the first to have game rules written around it. Even if the game rules are a bit more flexible and more complex them the ones used in Jack vances books.
As time went on video games spread the idea of a "pool" of magic. Over the last 30 or so year other games have embraced that idea as have writers and gamers.As many of them were exposed to the "pool" concept though video games and the like and less though books such as the dying earth.
However writers as a whole do not explain how the magic works, you the reader often try and "fit" it into a context you understand. Which over time had become "mana" as that is the system most of us have the most exposure to. Even if that "system" is never the same from game to game.
Honestly Vancian casting is no less magical and illogical then a "mana" system. It is just a style that was not supported by the mass media and did not become as widely known is all. Well less known outside of people who play d&d anyhow
Is there any chance that Paizo will finally offer the many fans of 3.5 gaming an alternative to the much-despised Vancian casting rules?
You mean besides the Sorcerer?
There's also a spell point system you can easily apply to Pathfinder from Unearthed Arcana.
There already exist alternatives, so why wait for Paizo?
And this is where the arguments against power points break down. Wizards in effect do have power points. They have 9 different types of power points in fact, and each point must be accounted for in advance. So we have a power point system which is designed to be as inflexible as possible, is unnecessarily complicated and requires lots of bookkeeping. In this regard, simple spell points are clearly the better choice in every regard.
I would have to disagree with that. The spell point system is every bit as complex, if not more so then the current slot based system. Comparing the psion to the sorcerer and the psions system is hands down more complex and needs both more book keeping and a better understanding of how they system works from all parties to be used correctly
The spell slots are easy, you get x amount of this level. It is less book keeping as a whole then "I had 28 points, this power cost 6, no 9 as I argumented it". Both are basic math, but one your taking 1 way from three and the other is 9 from 28
Now I'll give ya wizards and clerics are more complex, but that is not because of slots. That is because of having to prepare them ahead of time. Something spell points would not help a single bit as you would still have to spend your points ahead of time.
Run a wizard or cleric, then run a sorcerer or oracle, you will notice the book keeping difference. And that difference is not caused by the system, but how those classes use the system.