Shifty |
Has Pathfinder missed the boat when looking at Clerics?
I got my APG hoping to see some 'kits' like everyone else got, yet all I see is more flavours of fruit (Domains) to pick two of.
Now I could be missing something here, but after musing over the concept of rolling a cleric I am now left with the firm opinion that they are the class most lacking in panache or flavour in the game.
Simply put, all other classes have a myriad of ways to style a look and feel, expanded significantly by the APG variants, but Clerics are still the same old tin can off the shelf (Plate/shield/mace) with whatever two-fruits domain the player chose.
I figured a 'cohort' cleric would be good, high CHA with a Celestial 'avatar' of his god sent down/gifted to walk with him on the path to ascension (Ldrship feat with a Celestial/half cel lion or uber giant eagle and drop a Feat to pay for it for mechanics balance), but without the Animal domain it is a bit stunted.
I wanted something that people would go 'Holy heck!' when he arrived... messenger of the gods type stuff :P
Summons don't fill that niche either, by the time you have MS(V) you get a 1 a day of a Cr5/6 critter that may or may not be effective - for 54 seconds - and sacrifice other really good spells. If they turned 'rounds' into 'hours' that would be awesome. Even dropping the feat to improve summons gives +4str/+4con which is nice... but the duration is the big kill.
Anyhow I then thought of a Cha cleric anyhow - looking for that 'slightly detached, touched by the divine, no longer quite man' type concept where simply by force of divine will he could influence others etc... but then I notice that clerics are lame at Cha skills, only getting Diplomacy and being weaksauce at Intim/Bluff etc... Sense motive is ok. But you get next to no skill points (2/lv) so even when you are good, you are half baked. So that's out too...
So the more I read up on clerics the more I start to think they are the class the designers forgot.
The flavours are 'go Charisma for doing undead blasts', or 'walk about with dump stat 8 Dex & Cha to pump Str & Con and make a melee build'.
I am not looking for min/max land as you can see, Im all about Style>Substance, but there's no mechanics that sit behind anything other than Joe Genero.
Help me see if different, but they APPEAR to be the most vanilla set of clerics since the D&D white box sat on my shelf in 1983.
DM_Blake |
You're joking right? Or trolling?
Your post is really just a long-winded rant designed to provoke a fight?
Because if it isn't, you sure are all over the place and I can't follow your logic. For example, you say the following:
The flavours are 'go Charisma for doing undead blasts', or 'walk about with dump stat 8 Dex & Cha to pump Str & Con and make a melee build'.
I am not looking for min/max land as you can see, Im all about Style>Substance,
Those two sentences, back to back, are like oil and water. They make no sense together. Just what, exactly, is "dump stat 8 Dex & Cha to pump Str & Con " if that ISN'T min-maxing?
Here, just in case you really did mean your post to be something other than the start of a fight, let me offer some real advice:
1. The range of power that a cleric has, from support to healer to controller to smiter to all-out-in-your-face-destroyer is amazing. Nobody else can do that, not even wizard (wizard comes close, but getting up into mele and smiting his foes is not one of the wizard's strengths). But, when you have that much versatility, sometimes some of the options are a bit lackluster compared to other classes that do just one or two things really well.
2. Try looking at the character for who he is rather than what he can do. By the time you read up on your specific deity, and bolster that info with some back-story and personality of your character, his faith, and his church, you probably have a deeper, more interesting, and more detailed character concept than any other class - and it's ready-made for you.
3. And a note about summons: They're meant for you to change the course of a combat by adding one or two useful allies to the battle. They're not meant for you to walk around all day with a new pet. Sure, sure, that's how they work in MMOs but here, in Pathfinder, summoned creatures are like Fireballs: they get in, do their thing, and go away. But, unlike fireballs, they can be incredibly versatile, and they stick around applying that versatility for a whole fight rather than just one little boom. You really should explore the concept a whole lot farther.
In fact, in our current game, our DM set about 12 umber hulks on us in a warren of tunnels (we were in their lair, in a central room so they hit us from all sides). My wizard (a cleric could do this too) popped out a pair of Hound Archons at two tunnel mouths and those puppies saved our butts. They were my two highest level spells. They came with DR 10/- and the umber hulks could barely scratch them. Every few rounds the cleric did a Channel Energy that included the Hounds and kept their HP at full. And their Circle of Protection from Evil saved everyone from the Confusion spells those Umber Hulks were throwing at us. I got combat, battlefield control, and protection from Evil - that's a three-for-one whammy (then I did it again since it was so useful). Completely saved our butts.
So don't make the mistake of underestimating Summons.
Necromancer |
It sounds like you really need to take the Oracle for a spin.
Edit and Addendum:
Remember that the cleric usually plays the straight man in adventuring parties; wise and insightful, a champion of their deity, etc. It does sound boring, but what about the paladin? Only one alignment (except the CE variant that frightens GMs) option and only a few party roles available to her (I'm exaggerating, but you get the point). A class' flavor is what you give it; the cleric is a full caster capable of an armor bonus rivaling melee characters that also heals and dominates undead. A wealth of skill points and special tricks can't top that. C'mon, give priests a chance.
Shifty |
Nah Blake, more a disappointed and bitter complaint.
The point about dumping stats and min maxing was a frustrated illustration of what the class apears to boil down to on a sheet.
I dont want a Cha cleric who is simply a blast machine, and I dont want some min/max battle cleric. I want something with more actual flavour.
I see where you are going in point 2, and the faith aspect is pretty good (pivotal in fact) but the mechanics really still just end up looking the same, whereas if I pick up a Ftr sheet they might have a finesse build, two hand build etc. The mechanics much more readily back up a range of player concepts and styles. Whereas when pumping different builds in I found it punitive not to just stick with the small range of cookie cut options.
For instance, how would you build a Cleric to a God of Diplomacy that wanted to use his strength of charisma and leadership (cha skills etc) to seek 'less lethal' outcomes? Sure he could just cast spells, and bless himself up the wazoo, but that detracts a bit in my mind.
Epic Meepo RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 |
Senevri |
Well... Cleric can be pretty bland, but I thought there was interesting stuff with subdomains...
Darkness, Heroism, Resurrection (the piemaker from pushing daisies was a cleric, who knew?), Thought...
Cleric archetypes I like:
- Trickster priests
- Shadow priests
- Balance (good, evil, law, chaos - all the same) priests
Out of domains themselves, Luck, Travel and Trickery have always been awesome.
Sometimes, mechanics give rise to gameplay, give rise to character.
F'r ex, War domain becomes much more fun when you realize how many feats have a prerequisite of power attack or combat expertise. These guys are AMAZING with combat maneuvers.
Then there's stuff like weather+air, storm+wind.
heroism+tactics, leadership+tactics, leadership+heroism (that's a crazy buff)
What can clerics be?
Superheroes, leaders, tricksters and deceivers, merchants, strongmen...
I think the most fun may be Travel + Deception, as it gets a load of teleports.
Sun + Resurrection may be pretty impressive, esp. on an undead campaign.
Archer clerics are not that impressive anymore, but archery is, thanks to deadly aim, a valid combat form, and clerics still get a load of powers which improve ranged damage.
Lightning Lord weather power is pretty cool.
*edit*
Diplomacy? Trade + Revolution. Reroll check + add half cleric level. just with ranks at level 10, you have 18+CHA. Level 20, 33+CHA.
DM_Blake |
how would you build a Cleric to a God of Diplomacy that wanted to use his strength of charisma and leadership (cha skills etc) to seek 'less lethal' outcomes? Sure he could just cast spells, and bless himself up the wazoo, but that detracts a bit in my mind.
Less-lethal?
Have you read the rules of this game? 90% of the Core rulebook is combat rules, or feats/spells/items/class abilities that are designed to be used in combat. I daresay that if you want "less-lethal" you came to the wrong game. D&D/Pathfinder just isn't about diplomacy.
Sure, you can play it that way if you want. But that takes a GM and a table-full of players who agree that they want that kind of game but they don't want to invest in some other game system that caters to it, so they'll settle for putting this square peg into that round hole and call it a game.
I'm not bashing Pathfinder by any means. I like the hack-n-slash. I like roleplaying too. IMO, it's hard to run fun combats in a game built for role-playing but it's not hard to run fun RP in a combat game. So I play a combat game. This combat game.
If all you want is a high CHA and a bunch of ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive, then cleric is a good class but sorcerer or bard is probably better. If you really want a Divine Diplomat, you can do that just fine with a cleric - choose the right domains and dump your DEX & CON to beef up INT and CHA and you're set...
(j/k on the min-max bit there at the end, unless you really want to)
Arnwolf |
You're joking right? Or trolling?
Your post is really just a long-winded rant designed to provoke a fight?
Because if it isn't, you sure are all over the place and I can't follow your logic. For example, you say the following:
Shifty wrote:The flavours are 'go Charisma for doing undead blasts', or 'walk about with dump stat 8 Dex & Cha to pump Str & Con and make a melee build'.
I am not looking for min/max land as you can see, Im all about Style>Substance,
Those two sentences, back to back, are like oil and water. They make no sense together. Just what, exactly, is "dump stat 8 Dex & Cha to pump Str & Con " if that ISN'T min-maxing?
Here, just in case you really did mean your post to be something other than the start of a fight, let me offer some real advice:
1. The range of power that a cleric has, from support to healer to controller to smiter to all-out-in-your-face-destroyer is amazing. Nobody else can do that, not even wizard (wizard comes close, but getting up into mele and smiting his foes is not one of the wizard's strengths). But, when you have that much versatility, sometimes some of the options are a bit lackluster compared to other classes that do just one or two things really well.
2. Try looking at the character for who he is rather than what he can do. By the time you read up on your specific deity, and bolster that info with some back-story and personality of your character, his faith, and his church, you probably have a deeper, more interesting, and more detailed character concept than any other class - and it's ready-made for you.
3. And a note about summons: They're meant for you to change the course of a combat by adding one or two useful allies to the battle. They're not meant for you to walk around all day with a new pet. Sure, sure, that's how they work in MMOs but here, in Pathfinder, summoned creatures are like Fireballs: they get in, do their thing, and go away. But, unlike fireballs, they can be incredibly versatile, and they stick around...
+1
On a side note, whenever I disagree with Blake it seems best if I think about it for a day or two before I rant. This, however, is dead on correct.
DeathCon 00 |
What the f*** am I reading?
Clerics have plenty of variety. I have been blessed as a DM to always have a player in my games to play a Cleric with Pathfinder rules in some unique way each time - I've had sword and board clerics of Iomedae, Ranged Clerics of Erastil, Clerics who focussed on mind-affecting spells and trickery, Clerics who focused on summoning and then buffing himself, his allies, and his summoned monsters, and many, many more unique and effective cleric builds. The domains in the core book already allow for a lot of mixing and matching, and the introduction of the 30 or so subdomains in the APG offer even more.
Have some imagination and ingenuity, I can't believe someone is complaining that the Cleric is bland.
Shifty |
I've had sword and board clerics of Iomedae, Ranged Clerics of Erastil, Clerics who focussed on mind-affecting spells and trickery, Clerics who focused on summoning and then buffing himself, his allies, and his summoned monsters, and many, many more unique and effective cleric builds.
Awesome, now we are getting there - post up the builds that are allowing you to do stuff like this, as they certainly aren't self evident at this point and I'd liove to see what people are doing with the class mechanics wise.
Less-lethal?
Yah, so if/when it fails we feel justified rolling in the Warriors :p
You dont have 'face' characters in your campaigns?
Sorc and Bards do the job well, but manipulative clergy are also a great fictional staple, think Waleran Bigod in Pillars of the Earth.
Malaclypse |
Nah Blake, more a disappointed and bitter complaint.
The point about dumping stats and min maxing was a frustrated illustration of what the class apears to boil down to on a sheet.
I dont want a Cha cleric who is simply a blast machine, and I dont want some min/max battle cleric. I want something with more actual flavour.
- An insane Cleric of Lamashtu with Chaos and Madness domains, and nightmares of monsters and aberrant abominations, cursing and debuffing everyone...
- An wandering idealistic freedom-fighter/guerilla type Cleric of Desna with Liberation and Luck, trying to save the world every day...
Shifty |
- An insane Cleric of Lamashtu with Chaos and Madness domains, and nightmares of monsters and aberrant abominations, cursing and debuffing everyone...
- An wandering idealistic freedom-fighter/guerilla type Cleric of Desna with Liberation and Luck, trying to save the world every day...
Both great themes, got a stat block so I can see how this might play out?
Themes I can develop, the stats to be able to walk the talk seem to be elusive.
Kaiyanwang |
Are you joking right?
Just with core, and just with domains, you can create clerics dramatically different in flavours.
Take a look in domains - THAT'S the key.
A Sun and Healing Cleric will be very different from a Community and Glory, or from a Weather and Animal, or a War and Strenght.
From the base of the domain, add in proficiencies in martial weapons and heavy armor, or a focus on metamagic. Or a focus on channeling.
You could have a sort of nature priest with a faithful companion, able to talk with winds and rebuke elemental spirits.
You could have a brother-chaplain of an order of Cavaliers of Paladin, ready to heal in the front line and support Body and Souls of the Order.
You can have a City Bishop, able in inspiring people to face the odds of a dark future.
Your favourite spells will add flavour. More summons for the Spirit-talker? More Flame strike and heals for the brother-chaplain? Buffs and commune with gods for the bishop?
And if needed, you can change them.
Seriously. Cleric is powerful, versatile, and you can build around it ANY concept of divine character. The way paizo managed domains and domain power is great - you no longer need a prestige class to represent a cleric of a deity, to make it different.
Read the domain session, my friend, and be inspired ;)
Malaclypse |
Malaclypse wrote:- An insane Cleric of Lamashtu with Chaos and Madness domains, and nightmares of monsters and aberrant abominations, cursing and debuffing everyone...
- An wandering idealistic freedom-fighter/guerilla type Cleric of Desna with Liberation and Luck, trying to save the world every day...
Both great themes, got a stat block so I can see how this might play out?
Themes I can develop, the stats to be able to walk the talk seem to be elusive.
Lamashtu-Cleric: 18 WIS
Desna-Cleric: 16 STR, 16 WIS
(Assuming Dwarf, 15pt build)
Kaiyanwang |
A friend of mine is currently running an Heal Cleric. He keeps up a party of 8, with the help of a paladin.
Do you know the old Wotc Complete Divine? Heal + Sun cleric is essentially the old Radiant Servant of Pelor, more or less, power-wise and fluff-wise.
Is the campaing custom? Why don't work around the concept of a man very confident, that transmits his confidence on other? A cleric of life and sun, a sort of WALKING sun.
Think about Gandalf in LoTR. His wise advices, how people hopes are restored by his mere presence. The light associated with his presence.
You could even base the aspect of you cleric on some real world ancient population tightly connected with a sun god (Ancient Egyptians come in my mind).
I can see him as a benevolent being, noble and peaceful, with good advices and inspiring presence. Pimp Wis and Charisma, take channeling feats, focus on heals and buffs.
If there is space, a feat for an heavy plate make you even more confident ;)
Jst an example, of course, we could work even on a more singual concept of Sun Cleric.
Shifty |
QUOTE="Kaiyanwang"]
I can see him as a benevolent being, noble and peaceful, with good advices and inspiring presence. Pimp Wis and Charisma, take channeling feats, focus on heals and buffs.
Hey thats not such a bad idea, pump the Cha up quite high and take the extra channels feat, and maybe turn undead; the Imp channel just seems useful if damaging undead, or have I missed the point?
Kaiyanwang |
It depends from what you want to do. You could take Elemental Channel (fire) to show your power on fire (sun --> fire) creatures.
Or take Alignment Channel and smite with the searing beams of you deity the "creatures of shadow" (evil outsiders).
How useful it could be, of course depends from your campaign.
Ellington |
Wow, people in this thread are getting really defensive. I actually agree with the OP. Sort of. I was really disappointed with a lot of the sub-domains and would have preferred to see archetypes like the other classes got. That said, it was pretty cool to see some domains become viable that had been horrible before.
Clerics in Pathfinder are more MAD than ever now that channel is actually a good ability and not meh like 3.5's turn undead. Wrapping your head around how to make a decent, well rounded cleric is possible is very hard until you realize that it's not.
Using a reasonable point buy of 15 or 20, making a balanced cleric will only result in disappointment. You're best off making either one that's focused on martial combat, or one that's focused on casting and party support. Trying to do something inbetween is just eh. If you specialize, however, you can be a great asset to the party.
Shifty |
Thanks, I didn't think I was totally off base :)
That said, I have taken the suggestions on board and run up a rough outline of what I might like.
As a Half Elf cleric with a 16 Cha and skill focus Intimidate, and purchasing the Persuasion Feat, by level 10 you end up with some pretty significant 'Diplomatic' skills.
Kaiyanwang |
Wow, people in this thread are getting really defensive. I actually agree with the OP. Sort of. I was really disappointed with a lot of the sub-domains and would have preferred to see archetypes like the other classes got. That said, it was pretty cool to see some domains become viable that had been horrible before.
Clerics in Pathfinder are more MAD than ever now that channel is actually a good ability and not meh like 3.5's turn undead. Wrapping your head around how to make a decent, well rounded cleric is possible is very hard until you realize that it's not.
Using a reasonable point buy of 15 or 20, making a balanced cleric will only result in disappointment. You're best off making either one that's focused on martial combat, or one that's focused on casting and party support. Trying to do something inbetween is just eh. If you specialize, however, you can be a great asset to the party.
But.. in 3.5 people complained because cleric was so good in so many things to make other classes useless. I don't see a big deal if now one is forced to focus.
Morevoer, I'm not sure that you cannot make an healer buffer able to occasionally kick some **s.
My point was: the most relevant feature of clerics is domains. As one changes armor and weapon training for fighters to obtain two handed fighter, one can chooose domains and sub-domains to obtain the kind of flavour needed. You can add archetypes from thing you have.
Cleric has channeling and domains, so...
GeraintElberion |
A friend of mine is currently running an Heal Cleric. He keeps up a party of 8, with the help of a paladin.
Do you know the old Wotc Complete Divine? Heal + Sun cleric is essentially the old Radiant Servant of Pelor, more or less, power-wise and fluff-wise.
Is the campaing custom? Why don't work around the concept of a man very confident, that transmits his confidence on other? A cleric of life and sun, a sort of WALKING sun.
Think about Gandalf in LoTR. His wise advices, how people hopes are restored by his mere presence. The light associated with his presence.
You could even base the aspect of you cleric on some real world ancient population tightly connected with a sun god (Ancient Egyptians come in my mind).
I can see him as a benevolent being, noble and peaceful, with good advices and inspiring presence. Pimp Wis and Charisma, take channeling feats, focus on heals and buffs.
If there is space, a feat for an heavy plate make you even more confident ;)
Jst an example, of course, we could work even on a more singual concept of Sun Cleric.
Thanks, I didn't think I was totally off base :)
That said, I have taken the suggestions on board and run up a rough outline of what I might like.
As a Half Elf cleric with a 16 Cha and skill focus Intimidate, and purchasing the Persuasion Feat, by level 10 you end up with some pretty significant 'Diplomatic' skills.
To combine the two, use an Aasimar (boost to wis and cha, light spell-like power and you can give the dude a halo!
Jarl |
Kaiyanwang wrote:Yeah IF the GM allows it, and it is in the Beastiary... cant see a reference to it being Kosher in the core rulebook.Great. now I want the character for myself ;)
Aasima ARE an available race. Check core rulebook and bestiary.
IIRC, no longer level adjustment, too!
Specifically, Pg 7 in the Bestiary gives the stat block for Aasimar characters.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
As far as wanting the APG to have more for Clerics: I agree. I specifically would have liked to have seen some alternate features instead of Channel Energy, or more/different ways Channel Energy could be used.
Even so...
For "clerics with flavor" -- I've seen it done in 3.5 let alone Pathfinder. I have seen a very scholarly cleric of Dugmaren Brightmantle (a dwarven god of invention) and I have seen a very sneaky, bluffing priest of a homebrew shadow god who was a shortbow master of all things. There's also my crazy half-elf fighter-cleric of the goddess of love whom the optimizers laugh at and yet she has consistently done everything I've needed her to do, and done it well.
Although it's common to have either melee-bot or heal-bot cleric especially in optimization threads, clerics are pretty flexible with their skill lists and spells. What you do with them may take imagination to push them out of the mold, but not so much mechanics. And even a "non-optimal" cleric is likely still to be a valuable contributor to a party... it's important that if your focus is concept, to stop worrying what the message board game theorists say makes the "Best" build because chances are, as long as you generally make sure your character is effective, they will be more than a boon to your party.
Kaiyanwang is right in that part of seeking that flavor IS indeed through the domains, which is why the subdomains probably were all clerics got. Remember some domains grant class skills and other bonuses that enable your cleric to focus on a given "kit" or "archetype."
In the end, I still also really wanted more, but I also think you can work with what is there pretty well.
Charender |
But.. in 3.5 people complained because cleric was so good in so many things to make other classes useless. I don't see a big deal if now one is forced to focus.Morevoer, I'm not sure that you cannot make an healer buffer able to occasionally kick some **s.
My point was: the most relevant feature of clerics is domains. As one changes armor and weapon training for fighters to obtain two handed fighter, one can chooose domains and sub-domains to obtain the kind of flavour needed. You can add archetypes from thing you have.
Cleric has channeling and domains, so...
While I would agree that 3.5 clerics needed a bit of a nerf, I find most of the PF domains to be quite disappointing. War and Strength in particular are just plain bad. With the core rule book I could only find 3 or 4 domains I actually liked, the rest were pretty meh. There were maybe another 6 or so domains that I could make work in particular builds.
Since the flavor of the cleric is entirely based on your domains choices, having only a few decent domains really limits your options.
I haven't had a chance to read the APG sub-domains, but it is my hope that the APG did a good job of bringing some of the crappier domain up to par with domains like travel and freedom.
-Anvil- |
Ok I've been playing a cleric that was originally 2nd ed and made all the conversions to 3.0, 3.5 and finally Pathfinder. I have a lot of experience playing one.
And I think I see where the argument over clerics being boring or not having variety vs. those that argue they are very versatile and powerful is coming from.
Those that see the variety of the Cleric see it in the spells available and the ability to choose any of those spells to make the type of cleric they want.
Those that see the Cleric as lacking options are looking at the abilities and seeing only channel, spells and domain powers on the advancement chart. This can seem dissapointing to a player when compared to, say the Monks table.
I tend to fall on the side that clerics do not have enough supporting material and here's why.
While, yes, clerics have an amazing array of spells to customize. The Cleric MORE THAN ANY OTHER CLASS is limited to the types of actions they can take in a round. They are almost always limited to move/standard action casting over and over again which can get pretty boring.
Most of the other classes now have a huge array of class powers and feats that let them do a wide variety of things as immediate actions, swift actions and modified attack options. The cleric fails to qualify for many of these types of feats and has no class abilities that let them do anything other than a standard action.
This becomes very frustrating when the other classes seem to be doing a flurry of things within a round using every type of action available to their advantage.
Clerics are slow and ponderous in combat and it can take several rounds before their actions can really turn the tide of a battle and by that time the other characters have usually devastated the majority of the enemies.
I think many players are looking for supporting material to help give the cleric more ACTION options in combat than just move/standard action casting. They've done this for most other classes(except wizards who are almost as bad as clerics when it comes to limited action types).
Sorry that was long winded. Hope I got my point across.
Brother Elias |
I'm not sure I'm playing the same cleric as anyone on the thread. From what I'm reading, I must be doing something wrong, because I don't think the cleric is boring or underpowered at all.
My current cleric (even though completely limited by Pathfinder Society rules to a subset of Pathfinder material) -
5th level Necromancer of Ydersius
Channels Energy and Commands Undead with a DC 19 Will Save.
Chaos and Animal Domain
Animal Companion "Mr. Chuckles"- Large Ape, with Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, wielding (and proficient it) large Lucerne Hammer - Hitting in melee (with 20' reach) for 3d6 + 12 damage.
I get to play the role of front line fighter with the animal companion.
I get to play the role of party healer (wand of cure light wounds)
I get to Animate and Command Undead. (Tell me that doesn't annoy the GM when he hits the "your party is attacked by a group of zombies" encounters).
I get to use nifty utility spells like Blindness, Command, Cause Fear, Lesser Restoration.
What's not to like, or boring about being the cleric?
Oh. Downside. I dump-stat INT, so I'm not the skill monkey.
There is not a single encounter that I've been in that I didn't feel like I had something strong to add to the party.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
Those that see the variety of the Cleric see it in the spells available and the ability to choose any of those spells to make the type of cleric they want.
I disagree, and I don't think I mentioned that at all when I mentioned the versatility of the cleric (I know you're not addressing me specifically, but as I'm one of the people who mentioned that, I feel like I ought to respond). Although that's part of it, I see the variety of the cleric in a number of ways:
1. Skills. While Clerics do not get a lot of skill points, what they can choose for skills can make each cleric very different. For example, a cleric that focuses on crafting, versus diplomacy, versus knowledge. A social cleric, a scholar cleric, and a crafter/profession cleric will all have very different roles in the party (remember that what you do in combat is not all the game is about). Clerics get a lot of cool knowledge skills particularly. Knowledge and Trickery both grant additional skills. I had a friend who played a cleric who was a bluff master and did a great job. And it didn't take anything (beyond the trickery domain) for the player to go out of the way to make that happen. Most people play single class clerics, so they can get extra skill points to their favored class to help expand this.
2. Domain Abilities. I am NOT talking about the different spells they can cast. I am talking about the abilities they get from domains. A cleric of Charm with the Winning Smile is quite different from the cleric of Travel with the boost to speed and the limited freedom of movement ability, and so on and so on, and that affects, IMO potentially quite a lot, how they might contribute to the party. Some domain abilities push a cleric concept toward being a blaster or meleeist, some toward buffer or toward even other different support roles.
3. Favored Weapon. This is a tiny thing, but if your deity's favored weapon gives you proficiency in whip versus bow versus bastard sword, you may well be inspired to take your cleric in varied directions toward how they participate in combat. A whip cleric may focus on combat maneuvers while a bastard sword cleric is going do something else (and any number of things at that).
Your idea that clerics are "always limited to move and casting" is just not true; maybe a wizard has that problem, but with 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, medium armor, and a lot of buff spells, a cleric is well known to be a good meleer and again, I've even seen a good ranged cleric. Plus this is another thing that boils down to creativity of the player. Saying all the cleric does is move and cast is like saying all the fighter does is hit things or the wizard does is cast or the rogue does is flank and hit things. Sure, I suppose when it comes down to it, that might be "all" they do--and in that limited way of thinking, the cleric still has more of a choice in "cast" OR "hit" than many other classes do not. More "action options" usually comes down to how you build your feats, etc. and how you as a player choose to interact with the battlefield. Which is the same for any character. Okay, bards can perform and barbarians rage, but that's pretty specific. I don't see "the cleric is not a bard" as a real problem.
(And for the record, I've been playing clerics since 2nd too.)
-Anvil- |
I'm not sure I'm playing the same cleric as anyone on the thread. From what I'm reading, I must be doing something wrong, because I don't think the cleric is boring or underpowered at all.
My current cleric (even though completely limited by Pathfinder Society rules to a subset of Pathfinder material) -
5th level Necromancer of Ydersius
Channels Energy and Commands Undead with a DC 19 Will Save.
Chaos and Animal Domain
Animal Companion "Mr. Chuckles"- Large Ape, with Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, wielding (and proficient it) large Lucerne Hammer - Hitting in melee (with 20' reach) for 3d6 + 12 damage.I get to play the role of front line fighter with the animal companion.
I get to play the role of party healer (wand of cure light wounds)
I get to Animate and Command Undead. (Tell me that doesn't annoy the GM when he hits the "your party is attacked by a group of zombies" encounters).
I get to use nifty utility spells like Blindness, Command, Cause Fear, Lesser Restoration.What's not to like, or boring about being the cleric?
Oh. Downside. I dump-stat INT, so I'm not the skill monkey.
There is not a single encounter that I've been in that I didn't feel like I had something strong to add to the party.
Many people, myself included, don't play in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Specific World. Therefore some of the Setting Specific Cleric powers are unavailable.(I honestly don't know any of them specifically, I just know there are a few out there)
I don't think the cleric is a BAD class, I just wish there were more variant options(class or feats) that other classes seem to have. Especially options that help take advantage of swift, immediate and atk actions(such as the rangers can get in the APG) that can be combined with and affect current class powers to get a real customizable build with powers building off one another. Most other classes have this, why not clerics.
Brother Elias |
Many people, myself included, don't play in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Specific World. Therefore some of the Setting Specific Cleric powers are unavailable.(I honestly don't know any of them specifically, I just know there are a few out there)I don't think the cleric is a BAD class, I just wish there were more variant options(class or feats) that other classes seem to have. Especially options that help take advantage of swift, immediate and atk actions(such as the rangers can get in the APG) that can be combined with and affect current class powers to get a real customizable build with powers building off one another. Most other classes have this, why not clerics.
I'm not sure what you are talking about regarding "setting specific powers". All of this is stock Pathfinder material.
Cleric. Domains Animal and Chaos.Feats. Improved Channeling. Selective Channeling. Command Undead. Boon Companion.
Animal Companion takes feats Weapon Proficiency (Lucerne Hammer), Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Not a single thing that your cleric running straight pathfinder material couldn't take.
Really, if you think the cleric is limiting, you really aren't reading much of what it can do.
All this, and I can do a burst of 3d6 negative energy (30' radius) [Channel Negative Energy - again, a straight out cleric ability] damaging attack to all enemies, excluding all friends (Selective Channeling).
Maveric28 |
Despite how the majority of those who've posted before me who seem to disagree, I agree with the Original Poster. Although the new subdomains are cute and mildly interesting, I believe that there is more to a cleric than just his domains. I do agree that tweaking the domains like this can give your cleric of choice a different flavor, and that's a good thing. But there is more to a cleric than just domains. A few alternate class features could have made for a much more diverse Cleric:
~ Cleric gains 4 skill points per level instead of just 2. This ability replaces the medium armor proficiency, and the character is barred from taking Armor Proficiency feats. Kind of a cloistered cleric option.
~ Cleric uses d10 HD and Level-equivalent BAB, like a Fighter does. This ability replaces the Clerics access to Domains. For those holy warriors who are not necessarily lawful nor good enough to be a paladin.
And so on... you can probably think of more alternate features, so I don't need to belabor the issue. My opinion is that both the Cleric and Sorcerer, by only getting Domain and Bloodline options respectively, kind of missed out here. This doesn't mean that they suck or stink or even are poor options... it just seems like they could have done more with alternate class features in the APG to make them more unique.
GeraintElberion |
~ Cleric uses d10 HD and Level-equivalent BAB, like a Fighter does. This ability replaces the Clerics access to Domains. For those holy warriors who are not necessarily lawful nor good enough to be a paladin.
Interestingly
Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack
bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die becomes a d10.
Taking the above ability requires a cleric to give up both of her domains, including her domain powers.
For versatility play an elven cleric of Ragathiel (bastard sword + elf weapons) or for sheer power play a half-orc.
PathfinderEspañol |
Uhmm, I think the OP has a point, but it is just my opinion.
Pathfinder is about options, and most options for the Cleric are meaningless. Most domains are about getting certain spells and powers that look like spells. Spells, spells, spells, a wizard in medium armor.
The lack of variants for the Cleric in the APG has disappointed me too, but at least they have a nice PrC for melee focused clerics.
w0nkothesane |
Clerics? Lacking in flavor? Hah!
The last three clerics I've played with have been:
My Council of Thieves Cleric of Cayden Cailean: a CG Dwarf wearing full plate and a half keg on his back. His holy symbol was a tankard that was always either full or being drunk from. Like to keep himself buzzed most of the day. He had the Travel domain so at various points in the day he would teleport, float, and fly at his enemies at 30' in full plate, wielding various hammers to smash the faces of his Chelaxian oppressors. This character was hung over for about 75% of the campaign.
A friends Cleric of Calistria, a CN Elf woman who liked to "get around" and wasn't above fighting dirty, trickery to get what she wanted, or seduction as a means to an end. Fought with a whip and hand crossbow and played more like a sneaky rogue than a cleric, except when she chose to bolster her allies with the occasional spell. Used her Trickery and Chaos domains to lead enemies on, confusing and misleading them into wasting time at just the wrong moment while her allies moved into position.
My current game has an Elf Cleric of Abadar, with the Travel and Nobility domains. He's "above" fighting like a barbarian, and so he lends aid to his allies with spells, and then hangs back with his light crossbow. He's not the best shot yet (level 4 currently) but he's focusing on that style of fighting to ensure that he doesn't need to dirty his hands in melee any more than absolutely necessary. He'll be receiving the Leadership feat at level 8 for free from his domain, and is going to use it to recruit a local to serve as his secretary and tax collector, and to generally help him fill his position handling domestic affairs for our government.