Half-breeds have been traditionally defined as one human and one non-human. Don't go trying to change the definition of the word. That's just not natural.
Dog-that-looks-like-sheep says something about not being natural. That's like the poodle calling the sheep fluffy.
Anyway, we're already talking about things like dragons or demons getting their freak on with humans, so we can safely rule out natural anything.
forgive my barbarian spelling
Because, sadly, just like in the real world, as long as the creature/object has a hole, you will always be able to find a human somewhere who's willing to bang it, even if they have to "cover the face, attack the base", as a friend of mine once put it.Hey now, in Captain Kirk's defense, all those alien women WERE humanoid and ALWAYS smokin' hot.
For more on the subject, refer to Ben Franklin's "Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of a Mistress", which basically boils down to 1) they all look the same in the dark, and 2) older women are so grateful. Makes me so proud to know he was one of the fathers of our country. Guys like Ben are the reason there are so many half-whatevers running around Golarion.
I think that the OP is putting an implication in there that shouldn't be.
It's not that other races can't interbreed, it's just that humans get more of a benefit from it.
If elves got a bonus to jump, would that mean no one else could jump?
the way i see it this feat represents the basic benefit of mixed breeding in pathfinder.
when you create a background for a character and decide that they are not a full blooded (insert race here) then this feat would be the best option to represent that background, by making it human only than it is a crunch feat making the statement that only humans have crossbreed children.
May I suggest a different "fluff" take on this?
Perhaps instead of looking at the feat and saying, "I'm a human with dwarf blood" (or indeed as I pointed out earlier half elf or half orc with dwarf blood" if you take the feat at first level it could be "I'm a dwarf with human blood" where the human blood traits simply over run the dwarf.
As a Genetic "middle ground" it could be that humans are more the "default" humanoid setting... you start mixing races up and they start losing those recessive genes and go with the dominant "human generic" genes instead.
Just a thought.
Instead of halfbreeds - some races breed true... you could let them select race traits for both races and have a feat that allows for the use of racial feats.
As you can shift the stats around for Half elves and Half Orcs what's to say that they can also be half breeds with other races
Using dwarves as an example.
Male Dwarf + Female human - produces a human,
Female Dwarf + male Human - produces a dwarf
Male Dwarf + Female Orc - Produces a half Orc
Female Dwarf + male Orc - half Orc
Male Dwarf + Female Gnome - Gnome
Female Dwarf + male Dwarf - Dwarf
and so on.
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The racial ability is enough and the feat in question (in pathfinder at least) is exactly the one that brought on this conversation in the first place and is human only... except that half breeds count as both races for most everything.
JJ has already posted on this several times.
Consider:
The availability of a feat based on race is an effect of the race -- having the race has the effect of unlocking access to that feat. Therefore if you count as the race for all effects you count as the race for unlocking feats.To Boot the feat in question:
Racial Heritage
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid Race. You count as both human and that race for any effect related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits , how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Now the half elf ability:
Note how both the feat and the racial ability use the exact same words -- "For any effect related to race."
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
I took the feat part of the Racial heritage's description as an exception to the usual rule despite its wording.
Because otherwise, I do not see why so many feats in the APG specifically require "elf or half-elf" and "orc or half-orc" when just stating "elf" and "orc" would have been enough.
the reason they specify half-orc or half-elf is because a full blooded orc or elf cant take it, its not meant for them to take only the half breeds can take it.
The racial ability is enough and the feat in question (in pathfinder at least) is exactly the one that brought on this conversation in the first place and is human only... except that half breeds count as both races for most everything.
JJ has already posted on this several times.
Consider:
The availability of a feat based on race is an effect of the race -- having the race has the effect of unlocking access to that feat. Therefore if you count as the race for all effects you count as the race for unlocking feats.To Boot the feat in question:
Racial Heritage
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid Race. You count as both human and that race for any effect related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits , how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Now the half elf ability:
Note how both the feat and the racial ability use the exact same words -- "For any effect related to race."
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
I took the feat part of the Racial heritage's description as an exception to the usual rule despite its wording.
Because otherwise, I do not see why so many feats in the APG specifically require "elf or half-elf" and "orc or half-orc" when just stating "elf" and "orc" would have been enough.
Exact same wording, exact same effect. It doesn't say, "With this ability you can take feats, which normally you can't."
It says, "For EXAMPLE" meaning this shows what is possible with this ability.
As to why put "Elf" instead of "Elf and Half elf" and on other things put "Elf or half elf"... well they do that sort of thing a lot. Something gets in with "elf" even though half elves can take it and something else gets labelled for both even though it doesn't have to be.
The racial ability is enough and the feat in question (in pathfinder at least) is exactly the one that brought on this conversation in the first place and is human only... except that half breeds count as both races for most everything.
JJ has already posted on this several times.
Consider:
The availability of a feat based on race is an effect of the race -- having the race has the effect of unlocking access to that feat. Therefore if you count as the race for all effects you count as the race for unlocking feats.To Boot the feat in question:
Racial Heritage
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid Race. You count as both human and that race for any effect related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits , how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Now the half elf ability:
Note how both the feat and the racial ability use the exact same words -- "For any effect related to race."
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
I took the feat part of the Racial heritage's description as an exception to the usual rule despite its wording.
Because otherwise, I do not see why so many feats in the APG specifically require "elf or half-elf" and "orc or half-orc" when just stating "elf" and "orc" would have been enough.
Exact same wording, exact same effect. It doesn't say, "With this ability you can take feats, which normally you can't."
It says, "For EXAMPLE" meaning this shows what is possible with this ability.
As to why put "Elf" instead of "Elf and Half elf" and on other things put "Elf or half elf"... well they do that sort of thing a lot. Something gets in with "elf" even though half elves can take it and something else gets labelled for both even though it...
Because the APG needs help?
Madcap I'm not sure what you mean by that... could you expound further?
ok let me put the question this way, why shouldn't non humans get to take this feat?
ok let me put the question this way, why shouldn't non humans get to take this feat?
See my statement earlier.... ah heck I'll C&P it...
May I suggest a different "fluff" take on this?Perhaps instead of looking at the feat and saying, "I'm a human with dwarf blood" (or indeed as I pointed out earlier half elf or half orc with dwarf blood" if you take the feat at first level it could be "I'm a dwarf with human blood" where the human blood traits simply over run the dwarf.
As a Genetic "middle ground" it could be that humans are more the "default" humanoid setting... you start mixing races up and they start losing those recessive genes and go with the dominant "human generic" genes instead.
Just a thought.
Bolded part is most relevant but it all applies.
I guess my return to you would be, "Why should only elves get to take elven accuracy?"
i guess this is just one of those things that i feel so strongly about that no matter what anyone says i wont be convinced. its not that i don't see what you guys are saying its just that i think it should be open to everyone.
i guess this is just one of those things that i feel so strongly about that no matter what anyone says i wont be convinced. its not that i don't see what you guys are saying its just that i think it should be open to everyone.
It's good to be able to realize it though. For the record I could see a feat like this for everyone, but people are less likely to argue with a "human dwarf" than an "elf orc" or "elf dwarf" or "dwarf drow".
i understand that point, and like i have said there could be lots of silly race combo's out there but i just would have liked to have seen this feat for everyone.
forgive my barbarian spelling
It is forgiven - unless the typos are really funny. Then they're mercilessly mocked.
1) they all look the same in the dark
Damn darkvision!
But even then, happiness is only one invisibility spell away!
1) they all look the same in the darkDamn darkvision!
But even then, happiness is only one invisibility spell away!
Which could explain why there are no half-dwarves.
Which could explain why there are no half-dwarves.1) they all look the same in the darkDamn darkvision!
But even then, happiness is only one invisibility spell away!
Yeah, but with dwarves, even invisibility won't help, unless you use a version of the spell that gets rid of the smell, too.
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i guess this is just one of those things that i feel so strongly about that no matter what anyone says i wont be convinced. its not that i don't see what you guys are saying its just that i think it should be open to everyone.
The problem here is that adaptation and diversity are considered to be defining characteristics of the human race.
If you forbid any racial human feat which plays up to this on the ground that every race should have it, it becomes very difficult to design racial feats for human.
Of course, you can always scratch the race requirement of all the racial feats and make them available to any PC who can come up with an entertaining explanation for having the feat.
its not that i want humans not to be divers its just this one feat, give humans other feats to emphasize this, i just really feel that any character should have the option to have a diverse race background.
I know its not paizo, but Green Ronin's Orc book: "Wrath and Rage" hinted that orcs could mate with anything and even had a half-orc owl bear...
that must have been a really scary morning, suddenly the orc rolls over and gasps at the face looking back at him "man i am never drinking again" lol
So thats what started the great orc anti- drinking raids. I had always wondered
Human players playing human character creates a conflict of interest.
In other worlds, if everyone in Real life was an Gnome.
The game would be filled with Half-Breed Gnomes, instead.
Why i wish in the future, there were no half-elves, or Half-orc. Would have much preferred having Orc's, Hobgoblin, Goblins, Lizard Folk as player races.
The fact that all Sorcerer's bloodlines are available for all races clearly shows that inter-species breeding is widely practiced.
My guess is that the human genetic blueprint is not as strong as that of the other races, allowing another species' genes to overwrite it in some ways (hence the feat in the APG).
The fact that it is human-only does not mean that other races do not crossbreed (they do), but that the genetic blueprints of the other races are too strongly fixed to allow for another species' genes to have a significant impact several generations down the line. Or at least, not as much as in humans.
It was funny I was actually thinking of house ruling this so all races could take it until I read this post.
That makes a lot of sense to me. Explains alot about the races themselves. All dwarves and elves have the same general image for what the race looks like (not trying to be a racist here), humans look vastly different from each other... but maybe im saying that just because I am a human...
after all
on that one family guy episode Jackie Chan thought everyone was ethan hunt...
i do not wish to sound rude or anything but to me the majority of the arguments i am reading on this thread just feel like half-a$@ed explanations trying to justify the feat requirement.
it may just be me and i might be all alone in feeling that anyone should be able to take a feat to give a crunch for their background.
i do not wish to sound rude or anything but to me the majority of the arguments i am reading on this thread just feel like half-a$@ed explanations trying to justify the feat requirement.
it may just be me and i might be all alone in feeling that anyone should be able to take a feat to give a crunch for their background.
Well look at it this way:
On the US Census if you are a quarter any other race than just caucasian they want you to circle that as your race even though you are a majority caucasian.
That is because White/caucasian isnt really a defining race, there isnt much associated with it, no real negative or positive connotations. Basically no one cares.
Humans in pathfinder in my mind have the same thing going on.
for example in real life:
"Why cant you get facial hair man?"
"I am actually 1/4 Cherokee"
"Really? I never would of guessed, you look white to me"
Example in game:
"Why cant you get facial hair man?"
"Im actually a quarter elf, for some reason I get nothing"
"Really? I never would of guessed, you look human to me"
i don't necessarily disagree with that its just that what if my character is a half dwarf half gnome, that is more than 1/4. on top of that i view the feat representing how you were raised as much as your heritage, maybe you are a full dwarf but raised in a gnome society shouldn't that count for something.
its just for me it just feels like a mistake to make this feat human only
why cant any other race be a mix bread that is not mixed with human?
Perhaps part of a human's versatility is a genetic versatility that allows it to breed with any other humanoid. In that case, an elf and dwarf can't regularly breed because their blood can't mix without magical assistance. A human's can. Consider it an unwritten "class feature" of humans (and celestials, devils, etc).
i don't necessarily disagree with that its just that what if my character is a half dwarf half gnome, that is more than 1/4. on top of that i view the feat representing how you were raised as much as your heritage, maybe you are a full dwarf but raised in a gnome society shouldn't that count for something.
its just for me it just feels like a mistake to make this feat human only
To denote a background for a character you can do that.
The feats, traits, and selection is specific to humans because there gentics allow them to tap into their ancestry.
If you want them to take traits that are race specific take the adopted trait and call it something else like Distant Lineage.
The feat does not limit where your background comes from. Period. It says that humans is the only race versatile enough to tap into that lineages powers and knowledge.
maybe you are a halfdwarf/half gnome (never seen or heard of that in any book or campaign I have played) you should count for both races when determining which feats you can select just because you are simply half of one and half the other. That is why half elves count as elves and half orcs as orcs.
The problem with your theory is that one MUST be the Dominant gene. So you can have your half dwarf half gnome, but one of those races is the dominant race and thus takes the stats of that race while counting as the other.
If said race does exist and you want him to qualify for feats and stuff of his other half HE ALREADY DOES because if you are half something as a half elf or a half orc you qualify as the main race of those two because that race is the dominant gene.
In a practical sense only humans can tap into the genetic code of ancestors because the Human genetic code is so maleable that it melds to other races genes, thus amplifying this.
says the half dwarf/half gnome "Why cant i figure out where the stone passage is? My dad used to do this in the dark?"
Dad says "Son you were always more like your mother, thats why you can do all those little magic tricks"
starting to see where im coming froM?
its not that i don't understand what you are saying i simply disagree, but like i said i guess i am alone in my feelings on this.
besides both half-elves and half-orc's count as both races not just one
its not that i don't understand what you are saying i simply disagree, but like i said i guess i am alone in my feelings on this.
besides both half-elves and half-orc's count as both races not just one
Yes but they cant take the said feat we are talking about.
I think you are thinking because you are limited in racial feat selection you are limited in your background? which simply isnt true.
Maybe because your only half you cant pick up the feat not because your not one of that race but simply because your ONLY half
where as a human, with a maleable genetic code, basically makes you a full on member of that race when trying to learn feats and such
its not that i don't understand what you are saying i simply disagree, but like i said i guess i am alone in my feelings on this.
besides both half-elves and half-orc's count as both races not just one
Yes but they cant take the said feat we are talking about.
I think you are thinking because you are limited in racial feat selection you are limited in your background? which simply isnt true.
Maybe because your only half you cant pick up the feat not because your not one of that race but simply because your ONLY half
where as a human, with a maleable genetic code, basically makes you a full on member of that race when trying to learn feats and such
they both can pick up the feat, if they count as both human and their other race for prerequisites then they can pick up the feat, there is nothing keeping those two from taking this feat
they both can pick up the feat, if they count as both human and their other race for prerequisites then they can pick up the feat, there is nothing keeping those two from taking this featits not that i don't understand what you are saying i simply disagree, but like i said i guess i am alone in my feelings on this.
besides both half-elves and half-orc's count as both races not just one
Yes but they cant take the said feat we are talking about.
I think you are thinking because you are limited in racial feat selection you are limited in your background? which simply isnt true.
Maybe because your only half you cant pick up the feat not because your not one of that race but simply because your ONLY half
where as a human, with a maleable genetic code, basically makes you a full on member of that race when trying to learn feats and such
If that is true for feats then someone needs to clarify why some feats state half-elf along with stating elf as required.
Also that doesnt make sense for Breadth of Experience, which obviously applies to age because the only three races that qualify are gnomes, dwarves, and elves, to be allowed to half elves. Half elves DO NOT have extended life spans.
Half-elf 20 years +1d6 +2d6 +3d6
that is from the core rulebook.
this to me, and is shared by other posters prior that when feats specify a race it is ONLY that race
Is this just to be redundant or is this because under the feat you MUST be that certain race?
EDIT: They have slightly extended lifespans, but no where near gnomes or dwarves or elves. Closer to halflings which dont qualify.
Can Anyone from Paizo give an answer to this????
Why does it list both elf and half elf for feats if half elves qualify as elves and then specify other feats with just elf and no half elf prerequisite?
Maybe to lay a foundation for feats that are half-elf only?
Maybe to lay a foundation for feats that are half-elf only?
that is how i feel
Humans are like the town bicycle: Everyone gets a ride.
Seriously...it's like we're afraid we'll go extinct so we try to pollute everyone else's gene pools.
I mean, we've got Half-orc...Half-elves...Centaurs...
Not the product of cross breeding.
That's what they WANT you to think. Never underestimate the depravity of the human mind.
It started with Tolkien well really with the various Myths in Norse and Celtic... Tolkien amalgamated them and created -
In the Early days ther were the Dragons and the Giant spiders and many other things, and there were the Ents who looked after the Trees. The the Gods created Elves then later one of the gods made Dwarves out of rock and they delved deep. Later the gods made men in immage of the elves. Some of the Elves bred with men but this was rare as they were very similar but elves were immortal and men were but mere mayflies. This is harkening to the fairy tales of european myth of men and faeries... anyway. Melkeor turned Morgoth angered of the other gods made trolls in mokery of the Ents (by taking Ents and magickally twisting them into trolls) and he made Orcs in Mokery of the Elves (by takeing some Elves and magickally twisting them into the abominations known as Orcs. Orcs being the opposit of elves, and thats why they were Lawful Evil in the Original 1st and 2nd edition D&D. Humans Gygax reasoned could mate with Orcs and Elves because Orcs were once Elves and Humans were fashioned after Elves. And did mate with Elves ie Elrond half Elven... Now Tolkiens best friend C.S. Lewis wrote in the Chronicles of Narnia that one of the Tutors to one of the Princes was a Half Dwarf (half human). This based on the old Norse being that the Elves were a tribe of Humans who lived in the forrest and were tall slender etc, the dwarves were midgets and so were sent to work in the mines and that the Giants were the larger humans 6ft plus and went to live up in the high country. In my Sweedish decent family on my mothers side my Grandfather was 5 feet tall - a dwarf. On my Dads family my Dad is 6 foot 4 and my uncles are all over 6 feet - all Giants. :) And I have met a few elven men and women, even with slightly pointy ears and angular features, slender builds etc. But most westerners dont understand this...
But Tolkien did, and Gygax followed suit with Tolkiens ideas from Lord of the Rings... though he didnt use C.S. Lewis half Dwarf thing :)
As for the Hobbits, there is a lot of Allusion from Tolkien that they are the Saplings from the missing Entwives, one of the reasons Merry and Pippin grew taller and their skin grew tougher almost like bark and the hair on their toes grew longer and thicker almost like roots, when they drank the Entish Draught...
So ya the humans can mate with a few races because they are part of those races...
Just wanted to point out cause I didn't see it mentioned anywhere on the thread. It is clearly stated that Gnomes can only produce offspring with other Gnomes.
I can't find the original reference I remembered but it is also stated in Gnomes of Golarion page 4 "Despite an inability to crossbreed with other races, Gnomes' constant hunt for new sensations means they rarely restrict their liaisons to their own kind"
So you cant have a Gnome blood even a little unless your a Gnome.
These new Gnomes take the place of the Norse Gnomes of 2nd edition as well as the Brownies, Leprechauns and a few other Diminutive fey :) You can taylor them as you like by adding green cloths and cobbler skill or a bierd and red cloths and mining etc...