i was thinking of how if a character is arrested and disarmed of their weapons most classes would need to try and figure out what to do to escape a prison cell and fight their way out completely disarmed and how it would be difficult to disarm a spell caster so they don't have their spells to fall back on.
with all other style of character sure they have class abilities but they sort of lose a big chunk of what they can do when in chains and trapped but a spell caster can still cast spells.
how would you disarm a spell caster? sure you have anti magic fields but how many prisons would have those, and you can take away their material components but that would effect them if they had escue materials.
im not trying to nurf a spell caster just even things up in this sort of situation.
i have considered making a simple magical item that when locked onto a spell caster makes it imposable to use magic but i am not sure
what do you all think?
i was thinking of how if a character is arrested and disarmed of their weapons most classes would need to try and figure out what to do to escape a prison cell and fight their way out completely disarmed and how it would be difficult to disarm a spell caster so they don't have their spells to fall back on.
with all other style of character sure they have class abilities but they sort of lose a big chunk of what they can do when in chains and trapped but a spell caster can still cast spells.
how would you disarm a spell caster? sure you have anti magic fields but how many prisons would have those, and you can take away their material components but that would effect them if they had escue materials.
im not trying to nurf a spell caster just even things up in this sort of situation.
i have considered making a simple magical item that when locked onto a spell caster makes it imposable to use magic but i am not sure
what do you all think?
Most spells have material components. Sorcerers dont have this issue though. Take away the spell component pouch and no escape. Prisoners should have anything they can use anyway. I think one book had antimagic shackles or something similar. I dont know book they are from though.
Party level is also a factor. The rogue will probably be picking the lock on those shackles asap. If they are low level at least they can't just teleport out.
The somatic spell components can be taken care of simply with a pair of shackled mittens that bind the fingers together.
Most spells have material components. Sorcerers dont have this issue though. Take away the spell component pouch and no escape. Prisoners should have anything they can use anyway. I think one book had antimagic shackles or something similar. I dont know book they are from though.
Party level is also a factor. The rogue will probably be picking the lock on those shackles asap. If they are low level at least they can't just teleport out.
Actually that only applies to a materials that cost less than 1 gp. Anything over that and the sorcerer has to use the component.
Cut off his hands, and cut out his tongue.
If he turns out to be innocent, well boo hoo. Shouldn't have been acting suspicious.The court can always have them regenerated, if the public make a stink.
Don't forget the eyes! In case you're worried about stilled, silent spells.
Also, depending on the level and specific type of spellcaster, you might want to worry about spell-like abilities which do not require verbal or somatic components.
On a seperate note, spellcasters with access to true strike make awesome disarmers. +20 to beat their CMD is no joke at all! I came to this tread thinking that we were discussing spellcasters that somehow focused on disarming. XD
Don't forget the eyes! In case you're worried about stilled, silent spells.Cut off his hands, and cut out his tongue.
If he turns out to be innocent, well boo hoo. Shouldn't have been acting suspicious.The court can always have them regenerated, if the public make a stink.
Set a miniature giant space hamster on them.
Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes! Charge!
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Take away the spell component pouch, that's a big one.
Bind their hands "sufficiently well", which probably means a set of manacles specifically designed to prevent somatic spell gestures; likely 10x the normal price, which is fairly expensive but still cheap enough that the local constable will have several on hand.
Blind them somehow, which blocks Line of Sight unless they have blindsense or are touching the target. So it's also necessary to chain them against a wall, so they can't grab the guard when he makes his rounds or delivers food.
Make sure their aren't any windows in the prison, and that entry is blocks by a solid door with an opening no more than 6 inches across, to keep out familiars.
This is enough to restrain the vast majority of spellcasters. If they can cast 4th level spells or higher, containing them is significantly more difficult, but then, containing an 8th level barbarian is rather hard as well.
Still, it'd be handy if there was a method of "deleting" spells from an opponents mind. Even if it had a 1 minute / 10 minute / 1 hour casting time and only worked on spells that the deleter was high enough level to cast. This strikes me as something that's long been missing from the game.
The truth is its really hard to accomplish this for some classes, its not just spell casters, unarmed fighters like the monk are also very strong here. Arms bound, he kicks you, legs bound, head butt etc. And past a few relative low levels a rogue is going to get himself out of a mundane prison pretty quickly. It is really the weapon fighter, and the wizard that are most screwed by this (and unable to use their abilities). Even a cleric could arguably form a holy symbol out of materials available in a prison (bits of wood) and thus have a big chunk of their abilities available to them.
Here is another idea.
Drugs or Alchemical potions.
I know there are a lot of drugs and stuff in the books that can keep a Wizard from being able to focus, keep awake, or even add amnesia for his spells. They can also do a number of different things that I didn't mention that would keep him from casting spells or make it difficult.
The great thing is this would also keep other classes down, except maybe Monks at a certain level.
I know there are a lot of drugs and stuff in the books that can keep a Wizard from being able to focus, keep awake, or even add amnesia for his spells. They can also do a number of different things that I didn't mention that would keep him from casting spells or make it difficult.
That's a great idea! Id Moss costs just 125 gp, and though the save is low it can be stacked by putting several doses in one shot.
Likewise, magical items could be used I guess. I wonder what's the price of a headband of dumbness -4.
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Cut off his hands, and cut out his tongue.
If he turns out to be innocent, well boo hoo. Shouldn't have been acting suspicious.The court can always have them regenerated, if the public make a stink.
This was going to be my suggestion. The best way to disarm a wizard is to have him dis-armed.
Thank you, I'm here all week.
Wow, I can really see some lawyers having a damn field day with about 1/2 the suggestions in this thread. Hewing off body-parts for mere suspicion? First time this happened to the scion of a noble house you would have the entire court hanging from the gallows and a potential civil war on your hands.
While that might be a neat idea for a campaign, it's not very practical particularly in a world where people are used to encountering magic users. Even using gags for extended periods of time could lead to abuse charges. I can see that being viable only for short-term restraint (until the authorities arrive), or in maximum security cases.
As I see it, is more a case of having to invent something plausible than trying to make do with rule resources that were designed with a different intent in mind.
If we are talking about official law-enforcement in such a world, then there is no good reason why such organizations would not have access to tools that could be used to humanely disable a spellcaster. Specially designed shackles with permanent silence effects would stop both verbal and somatic components. Constabularies might be keep a supply of ammunition with silence and paralysis poison on them for when they need to take down a caster who is still at large. Even small cities would be likely to have casters on the force capable of counterspelling, or crafting rods of negation, etc.
A spell that temporarily causes a penalty to casting abilities would be enough to take care of any remaining spell slots that had spells in them. In the interim before it wears off, clasp a collar around the mage's neck that has been specially crafted to prevent them from regaining spells. Just because something like this doesn't already exist in a rulebook designed primarily for adventurers doesn't mean that rulers and LEOs wouldn't have such tools at their disposal. If the characters don't already know about such things then just explain it as being because they never ran afoul of the law.
Dance nonlethally on their kidneys. That usually keeps people from casting.
Have the manacles use the pain strike spell on those that wear them followed by a cure light every round. This will cause the damage to disturb spell casting without killing the mage (it's nonlethal damage and you are healing it afterwards). Maybe even maximized (even empowered) pain strike followed by maximized cure light.
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Dance nonlethally on their kidneys. That usually keeps people from casting.
Have the manacles use the pain strike spell on those that wear them followed by a cure light every round. This will cause the damage to disturb spell casting without killing the mage (it's nonlethal damage and you are healing it afterwards). Maybe even maximized (even empowered) pain strike followed by maximized cure light.
Nah, not even that, just have the pain strike trigger on spellcasting and have the manacles use stabilize to save gold on the making of them, otherwise those things are going to get hella expensive fast.
I think the cheapest solution would be to simply have him tied down with a guard or two (they don't even have to be trained - first level commoners with a weapon they're proficient in would be enough!) stand ready to slice his throat should he cast. Even a dagger will result in a fort save or death due to coup the grace.
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I think the cheapest solution would be to simply have him tied down with a guard or two (they don't even have to be trained - first level commoners with a weapon they're proficient in would be enough!) stand ready to slice his throat should he cast. Even a dagger will result in a fort save or death due to coup the grace.
+1
Hirelings are cheap.
Int poison or drugging is probably the sanest way.
Why? Gagged, bagged, and hog-tied is a whole lot cheaper and easier, and there's no Fort save against it.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
...and the wizard was arrested under the suspicion of jaywalking.
Y'know, treating spellcasters like that is a GREAT way of getting the town nuked by an angry cabal.
My thoughts exactly.
Int poison or drugging is probably the sanest way.Why? Gagged, bagged, and hog-tied is a whole lot cheaper and easier, and there's no Fort save against it.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Yeah until they are acquitted and unleash legal hell against the folks who went all medieval on them. Pretty sure things get VERY expensive at that point...
Seriously, most of these suggestions would be viable only as either short-term stop-gap solutions, or in chaotic-evil nations where suspicion is as good as guilt.
Int poison or drugging is probably the sanest way. Cast iron fullplate won't stop spells without somatic components and so forth. If their INT is brought down to 9, they ain't casting.
This would seem like the answer...
but it isn't.
Int damage doesn't disallow spell usage. You have to deal ability drain instead.
Interesting topic. I think the average citizen is not going to be too worried about violating a wizards civil rights too much. I am reminded in the Dragonlance series, about how easy it was for the Kingpriest to spin up fear and distrust against the Wizards of High Sorcery. Number one, it takes a lot of training to become one, so they are rare, and number two, they do have built in limitations, needing to rest, and they only have a limited number of spells they can cast. IIRC, the wizards of High Sorcery could have slaughtered the citizenry, but chose not to for their own reasons.
Each world is different, and the levels of civilization vary as well, but for the most part, binding and gagging a wizard, after stripping them seems sufficient to me. Also if you know he is a spellcaster, then having something akin to a suicide watch would be prudent, there he would be watched 24/7.
In advanced civilizations, then I see where the legal entanglements come into play. If a Wizard also happens to be a noble, then this would trump the class considerations, and he would be treated differently anyway.
Just my 2 cents here.
Int damage doesn't disallow spell usage. You have to deal ability drain instead.Wotcha talkin' bout? "The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.". Seems a pretty clear-cut case of no stat, no casting to me.
Second line of the ability damage description:
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Thusly it does not reduce the intelligence of the wizard, and since the intelligence is not reduced he can still cast spells, albeit with weaker save throw DC's.
Ability Drain on the other hand, specifically reduces the stat that is affected, and therefore would prevent spell casting.
You know there is one aspect of spell casting that I don't think we have covered yet. Disrupting their concentration. So you hirer a 5th level Artificer or wizard to enchant a metal plate floor with shocking grasp so that it goes over at random intervals between 1 and 6 seconds. The enchantment would be modified to only do non-lethal damage.
Stick the wizard in there with no shoes on and watch him dance.
A cheap solution is just to hirer minions to slap the wizard if he tries anything but where is the fun in that.
DANCE MAGE BOY DANCE!!!
stuffs
Actually it was mentioned. By me and stringburka specifically.
Well depending on the level of technology in the game.
Duct Tape and lots of it
Well depending on the level of technology in the game.
Duct Tape and lots of it
So again, gagged and bound. Which can be negated by still and silent spell metamagic feats, as well as use of the eschew material feat.
So again, gagged and bound. Which can be negated by still and silent spell metamagic feats, as well as use of the eschew material feat.Well depending on the level of technology in the game.
Duct Tape and lots of it
The eschew material feat is very limited because if the material costs a gold piece or more then the feat doesn't affect it.
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...and the wizard was arrested under the suspicion of jaywalking.
Y'know, treating spellcasters like that is a GREAT way of getting the town nuked by an angry cabal.
Actually, I don't think that's the case. Most wizards and sorcerers don't stick together much, and if there's a town that hates magic most magic-users will avoid it.
Now they might get a stern lecture from some paladins or clerics, maybe even a little divine wrath. but I find it highly unlikely that a cabal would ever care. Maybe wizards, sorcerers, bards, and witches are very different in your game world, but in my worlds they all know there are a lot of people who hate magic in the world. Those magic-users who make it their mission to eliminate such people are called "bad guys", and the adventurers get to kill them.
The eschew material feat is very limited because if the material costs a gold piece or more then the feat doesn't affect it.So again, gagged and bound. Which can be negated by still and silent spell metamagic feats, as well as use of the eschew material feat.Well depending on the level of technology in the game.
Duct Tape and lots of it
Which applies to what? A tenth of the spells available and none of the really really good ones?
Which applies to what? A tenth of the spells available and none of the really really good ones?The eschew material feat is very limited because if the material costs a gold piece or more then the feat doesn't affect it.So again, gagged and bound. Which can be negated by still and silent spell metamagic feats, as well as use of the eschew material feat.Well depending on the level of technology in the game.
Duct Tape and lots of it
That depends on what you think is useful.
That aside however lets think a little realistically here. The metamagic feats silent and still both require a 1 higher level slot. To use both on one spell raises the slot usage up 2 levels. I don't know about you but that seems rather wasteful and unless the wizard is totally paranoid he will at most have only a couple spells prepped that way.
If the wizard was arrested there mostly likely some kind of resistance on the wizard's part. This means he probably used up a good deal of his spells for that day.
In addition unless the wizard gets thrown into prison a lot most of his spells would be geared toward adventuring. Although a few would have some utility spells if they are smart.
Lastly back to my duct tape it is not just bound and gagged but also blindfolded with duct tape. No eyes mean no line of sight and unless the spell is a personal spell this really hinders the wizard.
On top of this I would also apply my drug idea which would either keep the wizard unconscious or to dim witted to be able to cast the spells.
So you would be bound, gagged, blindfolded and drooling on your self from the drugs. You would be pretty much boned.
In order:
1. Knock him out.
2. Take away his spell components, focii and spellbook.
2. If an arcane caster, strap him into a suit of full plate.
3. Shackle him (with masterwork shackles).
4. Gag him.
5. Put a bag over his head.
6. Bury him up to his head in sand.
If the sorry bastard still succeeds in casting a spell after that; he's earned the opportunity. =D
In order:
1. Knock him out.
2. Take away his spell components, focii and spellbook.
2. If an arcane caster, strap him into a suit of full plate.
3. Shackle him (with masterwork shackles).
4. Gag him.
5. Put a bag over his head.
6. Bury him up to his head in sand.If the sorry bastard still succeeds in casting a spell after that; he's earned the opportunity. =D
Amen
Two locking gauntlets(8gp each) locked on hands and taking away spell component pouch will solve nearly all the problems you would have with a up to seventh level mage. thats the cheap solution. most likely issue would be knock. then dimension door, lesser geas,shout at higher levels. but heck if you have imprisoned a 7th level mage and hope to keep them imprisoned hopefully you have access to better stuff than just 16gp worth of locking gauntlets. the knock issue is probably going to be the mostly likely you'll have to deal with and that can be solved by putting a cell within a cell. if the mage had managed to memorize more than one knock(situational) then well you might want to keep extra guards on em anyway to watch. and you since knock only works on doors boxes and chests...they wont be getting the gauntlets off heck just chain em to the floor. and like i said if they can cast the other spells listed earlier then you should have something better than the gauntlets to use. its hard to plan for still spells. i personally don't know anyone who uses such things unless its with a rod. if you are dealing with a divine caster, bard, or especially an inquisitor i would definitely suggest a gag.
its impossible to plan for every contingency, but thats what my podunk villages have access to. and the guard carry thunderstones, useful for deafening wizards while simultaneously sounding the alarm...good stuff
~S
That aside however lets think a little realistically here. The metamagic feats silent and still both require a 1 higher level slot. To use both on one spell raises the slot usage up 2 levels. I don't know about you but that seems rather wasteful and unless the wizard is totally paranoid he will at most have only a couple spells prepped that way.If the wizard was arrested there mostly likely some kind of resistance on the wizard's part. This means he probably used up a good deal of his spells for that day.
In addition unless the wizard gets thrown into prison a lot most of his spells would be geared toward adventuring. Although a few would have some utility spells if they are smart.
Lastly back to my duct tape it is not just bound and gagged but also blindfolded with duct tape. No eyes mean no line of sight and unless the spell is a personal spell this really hinders the wizard.
On top of this I would also apply my drug idea which would either keep the wizard unconscious or to dim witted to be able to cast the spells.
So you would be bound, gagged, blindfolded and drooling on your self from the drugs. You would be pretty much boned.
Drugs, which do nothing to my spell casting ability (as has already been covered) bound, gagged, and blindfolded, which if I have a still, silent spell as well as eschew materials (and believe me I'll only need one) means next to nothing since that only prevents spells that require line of sight (very few spells do -- most require line of effect which is specifically not blocked when line of sight is).
Granted I might have resisted. Or with my fantastic Int I might have realized my best results would be had with a surprise escape after they thought they had me secured. Since I'm usually grabbing spell mastery too (and I do) I know I'll have that still silent dimension door spell (teleport at higher levels) -- which will get me out of the duct tape (ropes, blindfold and what have you) at which point I'm free to wreck havoc, or simply leave as I decide.
Honestly the best choice is to simply have someone standing over the mage ready to knock him silly if he tries to cast a spell -- and even this has problems too if you don't deal enough damage to disrupt the spell, OR if he has supernatural powers (like the teleport school's dimension hop ability from the APG).
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This whole thread is why I tend to laugh at the idea of witch trails. I mean really the witch in question is supposed to truck with satan (as per the trail papers), have the ability to fly, hex people, transform herself and others, and bewitch people and the witch is just going to let you lock her up and put her on trail before you set her on fire/hang her/etc? Really? With all those abilities the witch is just going to put up with this?
Prosecutor: "Are you a witch and do you have the ability to do all these things?"
Supposed Witch: "Yes. The real question is why I didn't use those abilities to escape."
Prosecutor: "What?"
Supposed Witch: "Think about it -- you just said I can fly, hex people, bewitch people, and transform people -- why would I let you take me prisoner with all that power?"
Prosecutor: "Why?"
Supposed Witch: "So I could kill everyone faster in the court house of course -- I didn't want to have to track you all down individually."
Prosecutor: "@#*%^!"
No I understand that all. I'm just pointing out the obvious, that everyone involved ignored at the time.
It's not that hard of an idea to come up with (indeed the greeks would have created the argument in all likelihood), so I wouldn't be surprised it this point wasn't brought up before.
Unfortunately it's one of those things that are easily solved for the simple -- "You can't hurt me because I'm an agent of GOD and therefore immune to your powers."
Nevermind the question of acting like an agent of God, since the accusers behavior is always ilrelevant.
Drugs would have an effect on spell casting for the simple reason that you need to concentrate in order to cast a spell and concentration is still in the game but it is just not a skill anymore. The Pathfinder Gamemastery Book gives sample drugs and how they work. It would be very easy for the GM to create a drug that impairs a person's ability to concentrate. Or how about a drug that causes you to rage like a little Berserker Tea which would cause you to rage for hours. It is well known that a person often cannot cast spells while in this state, although the raging prophet would be the exception to that. Give you a little angle dust and you will mostly only want to punch things. Or the GM if he truly wants you to be a prisoner will simply come up with a drug that wipes your mind of all prepared spell.
Now that aside there will always be a way to counter act an action and there will always be some means of escape. The problem really comes down can you foresee the outcome and get ready to counteract with a good solution. If you do see it coming then you picked up on your GM's clues, if any, and have prepared your self for such an eventuality. It is very easy to say I can do this and I can do that to avoid a situation but if you didn't prepare for such a situation then you are boned. You can have a hypothetical argument all you want but when it comes down to actual practice you might not see the event coming close.
If you do manage to break out then you have earned your cookie.
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Low-level casters - Not likely to have still spell OR silent spell, let alone both. The locking gauntlets and gag combo should be sufficient to keep them from casting anything at all. Except feather fall, but that's not a threat.
Mid-level or high-level casters - If you're capturing people of this level, you probably have access to Feeblemind. Use it 'til it sticks.
Low-level casters - Not likely to have still spell OR silent spell, let alone both. The locking gauntlets and gag combo should be sufficient to keep them from casting anything at all. Except feather fall, but that's not a threat.
Mid-level or high-level casters - If you're capturing people of this level, you probably have access to Feeblemind. Use it 'til it sticks.
Generally agreement. Feeblemind, or antimagic field stuff.