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The wording of Wall of Stone leaves me with some questions. Here is the specific part I am unsure about:
"The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
So, does that mean I cannot conjure a WoS on an open grass plain, because the ground is normal earth? How about on a beach? Or on a metal floor?
The wording of Wall of Stone leaves me with some questions. Here is the specific part I am unsure about:
"The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
So, does that mean I cannot conjure a WoS on an open grass plain, because the ground is normal earth? How about on a beach? Or on a metal floor?
If I'm reading it right, it means that the wall of stone must be "attached" to an existing body of stone (hence "merge with"), and in such a way that it won't just break off from gravity ("solidly supported"). So you could use it to make a bridge from one stony cliff face to another (hence not vertical or resting upon any foundation). You could not rig it (by, say, attaching the entire wall horizontally to a 5ft column) such that it would break off and fall on whatever was below it.
So can you create a flat horizontally wall of stone on the ground.... to start of with.
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Kind of wondering if you could use Wall of stone, to make roads, buildings, aqueduct, fences, etc ???
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What about Wall of Stone + Stone Shape??
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Anyway would like more info on this spell as well.
Kind of wondering if you could use Wall of stone, to make roads, buildings, aqueduct, fences, etc ???
I think the Sage, in his/her various mortal incarnations, has ruled that raw materials created by "wall of ..." spells are low grade, fundamentally flawed, and all around unsuitable for raw building materials (hence the fabricate spell).
Also, I'm going completely off the cuff here, as I'm being to lazy to go into the other room and crack open my various PHBs & DMGs of various editions, but I think that, going back to the 1st edition, worked and unworked stone were considered to be one of the main components of dungeon walls/floors/ceilings, so this is a spell that probably had waaay more utility when most adventures were taking place in the Temple of the Frog or Lost Caves of Tsojcanth, and much less utility when we left the dungeon in search of greater verisimilitude.
Fabricate is wizard only.
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Looking for a Priest way to build.
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Also this spell say it can be used to build crenellations, or battlements buy reducing the area.
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The spell let you create the wall of stone in almost any shape you desire.
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For a 5th level spell, with an instantaneous effect. I would think that while the stone would not be worth anything for resale...all i really am looking for is a floor, 4 walls, and a roof of rock to live in.
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Any other priest ideas??
Fabricate is wizard only.
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Looking for a Priest way to build.
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Also this spell say it can be used to build crenellations, or battlements buy reducing the area.
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The spell let you create the wall of stone in almost any shape you desire.
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For a 5th level spell, with an instantaneous effect. I would think that while the stone would not be worth anything for resale...all i really am looking for is a floor, 4 walls, and a roof of rock to live in.
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Any other priest ideas??
Offer to build a castle for the local lord. Tell him to order the furniture, you'll settle the masonry. =D
Or single-handedly solve the local housing problem (bring along a druid to use wood shape to make the doors and windows).
Now we know how those BBEGs in fantasy worlds get their bad-ass castles. Between wall of stone and stone shape, who needs dwarven masonry? XD
=QUOTE= Offer to build a castle for the local lord. Tell him to order the furniture, you'll settle the masonry. =D =QUOTE=
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Thinking about NG Deity: Garth the Gardener. Domains: Good, community, Plants, Earth, and Sun.
Cleric with Domains: Earth & Plant.
Earth Spells: Soft earth and stone, Stone shape, and Wall of Stone = Used for gardens, garden walls, simple aqueducts (like they did in peru) Stone houses (for basic shelter), and stone roads.
Plant spells: Plant growth ( for increased harvests).
(note: ya i choose plant domain just for the one spell= But the idea was that Garth was a god of Gardens, parks, Fruit Trees, farming and Agriculture. At least that is how he started off. Then i added Earth, since plants grow in the earth, and sun since plants get there energy from the sun (( fire domain was just to destructive )). Good is required ( based on how the other gods are set up ), and Community.... since i was going for an old Welch/Irish type priest & to tie this god down to the people of the land and not the land itself (( Think Gardener not Nature Tree-huger )).
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Not looking to make money, but serve the community by helping farmer/ gardener, with Food/Shelter/and Magic.
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Offer to build a castle for the local lord. Tell him to order the furniture, you'll settle the masonry. =D
Thinking about NG Deity: Garth the Gardener. Domains: Good, community, Plants, Earth, and Sun.
Cleric with Domains: Earth & Plant.
Earth Spells: Soft earth and stone, Stone shape, and Wall of Stone = Used for gardens, garden walls, simple aqueducts (like they did in peru) Stone houses (for basic shelter), and stone roads.
Plant spells: Plant growth ( for increased harvests).
(note: ya i choose plant domain just for the one spell= But the idea was that Garth was a god of Gardens, parks, Fruit Trees, farming and Agriculture. At least that is how he started off. Then i added Earth, since plants grow in the earth, and sun since plants get there energy from the sun (( fire domain was just to destructive )). Good is required ( based on how the other gods are set up ), and Community.... since i was going for an old Welch/Irish type priest & to tie this god down to the people of the land and not the land itself (( Think Gardener not Nature Tree-huger )).
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Not looking to make money, but serve the community by helping farmer/ gardener, with Food/Shelter/and Magic.
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So go make houses for the local populance! If you have the plant domain, you could probably handle the woodwork for the doors and windows too, all by yourself!
Alas: the Plant Domain does not wood shape as an available spell.
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This does not bother me as the idea of building house out of stone, was to avoid them being build out of wood in the first place.
@Oliver McShade just remember the the greatest source of wealth before the industrial revolution was agriculture.
For example what happens if your city grows to the size where you have to have some one cast plant growth just to feed the existing population. And then a BBEG comes along and kills those clerics :)
So, the answer to my original question is: "Mmmmmaybe?" :p
And answers from the Sage don't apply to Pathfinder. They are for the 3.5 version of the game. The spell itself doesn't talk about the quality of the stone, but it does talk about it being possible to make crenellations. The statistics are for normal stone, so mechanically you can build anything which is allowed by the spell.
@Oliver McShade just remember the the greatest source of wealth before the industrial revolution was agriculture.
For example what happens if your city grows to the size where you have to have some one cast plant growth just to feed the existing population. And then a BBEG comes along and kills those clerics :)
And your point is??
Players have magic spells. Player want to use those magic spells to do stuff. Also: Some DM want to use those magic spells to create a Magical World.
I guess i just miss the people who use to think.... Wall of stone to build a castle, Levitate + Permanency to make it Float, Wall of Fog + Permanency; to hide it in the clouds.
If players wanted to make a flying castle for themselves, COOL. Take X number of days to cast Y number of spells, so if 2 player work together it would take z number of weeks to make.
Once the castle was made, if they players want to sale it for cash... DM would just say NO. Your stuck with a flying castle. Oh, and an small army of hawk-men are at your door saying "" Get out, were taking over !!""
Whats the point in having magic... if no one is allowed to use it (( other than just blowing people up in 1-6 man battles )).
There are very few places where you wouldn't be able to cast this spell.
If you are underground, you are likely surrounded by stone. If you are outside, then you can attach it to the stone foundations within the earth. Only when you are inside steel towers and such might it become a problem.
There are very few places where you wouldn't be able to cast this spell.
If you are underground, you are likely surrounded by stone. If you are outside, then you can attach it to the stone foundations within the earth. Only when you are inside steel towers and such might it become a problem.
Keep in mind that if you are the only primary caster in the party, single-handedly raising a fortified base of operations for your team nets you all sorts of awesome points. In this at least, the intrepid caster will always find a use for this spell (and of course, stone shape).
There are very few places where you wouldn't be able to cast this spell.
If you are underground, you are likely surrounded by stone. If you are outside, then you can attach it to the stone foundations within the earth. Only when you are inside steel towers and such might it become a problem.
Underwater, too, but I see what you mean. :)
There are very few places where you wouldn't be able to cast this spell.
If you are underground, you are likely surrounded by stone. If you are outside, then you can attach it to the stone foundations within the earth. Only when you are inside steel towers and such might it become a problem.
Technically speaking, there has to be exposed stone for wall of stone to function. You cannot make an object appear inside of another object with a conjuration spell, so you can't "dig down" to base the wall of stone on the rock under the soil.
Realistically speaking, everyone ignores that line of the spell.
There are very few places where you wouldn't be able to cast this spell.
If you are underground, you are likely surrounded by stone. If you are outside, then you can attach it to the stone foundations within the earth. Only when you are inside steel towers and such might it become a problem.
Technically speaking, there has to be exposed stone for wall of stone to function. You cannot make an object appear inside of another object with a conjuration spell, so you can't "dig down" to base the wall of stone on the rock under the soil.
Realistically speaking, everyone ignores that line of the spell.
I just consider soil, sand, and similar substances stone. They are, after all, just very fine stones. There would need to be enough stone to support the structure built, so you couldn't use your sleep spell component for it, but that is not too big a deal.
To others: there is not a clause in wall of stone that says it is poor material to work, so you can use it to build buildings or create material which you can perform other crafts with. Wall of Iron specically says it is poor iron, which is probably what you are thinking of.
Carry a long flat 10# stone brick with you. Put it down. Cast wall of stone with one corner on your 'cornerstone'. Existing Stone + Wall of Stone = House.
I still want to know what happens when you drop a group of enemies into a summoned pit, then wall of stone over the top, then dismiss the pit.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
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I don't see where this phrase is ambiguous at all. MUST is a pretty strong word.
I can understand dropping the requirement for merging with an existing stone surface, but the spell is obviously worded in such a way as to preclude dropping it on someone. Contrast it with Wall of Iron which explicitly allows tipping it on someone.
As for being useless everywhere but dungeons or mountain climbing... the vast majority of in game structures are either predominantly made of stone, or at least have stone floors or walls. So suggesting it needs to be tweaked because it's 'useless' is a non-starter.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The MUST as I said is in reference to s specific situation. To use it in a stationary way it needs to merge or it falls. Why does it specifically say that it does NOT require a firm foundation? Existing stone would be a firm foundation would it not? For example, if you are not right handed and not ambidextrous then you MUST hold the pen in your left hand. This doesn't mean that you must hold the pen in your left hand, it means that given the other two conditions that you must.
The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone.
If you make a wall of stone hanging from the ceiling is it 'resting on a firm foundation'?
Basically it's saying you can make any shape you want so long as it's solidly supported by existing stone.
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Now that's an interesting line:
The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone.
Seriously, who would write a line that, in effect, reads "The wall need not rest upon any firm foundation but must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
That boggles the mind and is painfully confusing.
I rule that there must be existing stone somewhere around that this wall can at least merge with in some way, like a stone pillar, road, etc. As such, the question above about creating a wall of stone in a field of grass wouldn't fly with me (merge with the stone and rock under the ground, really now, that's stretching quite a bit). My general feeling is that if you adjudicate this spell properly as written , it's no longer the incredibly useful spell Treantmonk treats it as in his guide (though still awesome in the proper environment!).
Wall of Stone + Stone to Flesh = Feed a village?
Lol...
Tastes like chicken?
Ultradan
My two cents: I would interpret it as saying that either it has to be vertical and on a firm foundation or it has to merge with existing stone. As noted above, clearly the intent is that you can't drop it on someone.
The key clue to interpretation is that the statement was originally specifically comparing the spell's action to the spell wall of iron. A wall of iron in all editions must be vertical, and must either be inserted into surrounding materials or created with its edge resting on a flat surface. Unlike the wall of iron, the wall of stone does not have to be vertical, and it can have parts that span air gaps — but the wall as a whole must always be merged with adjoining stone.
Comparative wordings:
AD&D 1st edition -
"This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces if the area is sufficient to allow it. [ . . . ] The wall created need not be vertical nor rest upon any firm foundation (cf. wall of iron); however, it must merge with an existing stone formation."
AD&D 2nd edition -
"This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. [ . . . ] The wall created need not be vertical nor rest upon any firm foundation (see the wall of iron spell); however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
D&D 3rd, D&D 3.5, and Pathfinder -
"This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. [ . . . ] The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
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I think it's better to alter the things you don't like for your game but to deal with the technical wording of the spell, why couldn't I use 4 small stone blocks as feet and cast the spell to merge with them and be supported by them. This would allow it to be cast without native stone outcroppings.
I really like this spell and hate to give up the environments that I can use it in. So a bit of rule lawyering..
While I understand the point you're making, your statement here simplistically glosses over points made earlier, seemingly because you just like the spell and want to use it wherever you like.
The spell is worded in such a way for a reason, not as a technicality, and ignoring this as you are results in an already excellent spell in certain circumstances becoming excellent in a staggering number of situations.
Instead of pretending the wording doesn't mean what it does, think of alternatives to create barriers in situations where stone isn't available (and to be sure, were a player of mine to spend a few actions throwing small stone blocks around the battlefield and then try wall of stone, I'd have to ask how a few small bricks are going to "solidly support" a massive stone wall).
To be fair, if that player instead threw a bead of 'dust of dryness' that had sucked up 100 gallons of water into a battle on a grassy field, then used 'transmute mud to rock', I'd let it adversely affect everyone in the area and then let the player go nuts with wall of stone, and probably throw him or her a bonus as well for being awesome.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My two cents: I would interpret it as saying that either it has to be vertical and on a firm foundation or it has to merge with existing stone. As noted above, clearly the intent is that you can't drop it on someone.
I think this is the most common way people run it.