Banzai's page

I don't feel I'm pretending about the wording but trying to clarify and throwing down stones is a means of satisfying the requirements. People have offered opinions about their interpretation which have been helpful. I believe the intent in the language is to make the spell so you can't cast it in the air and pancake people, and this discussion convinced me of that. I do not, as of yet, believe that there needs to be some native natural stone structure to attach it to.

One of the initial suggestions was throwing down some rock which seems to be a reasonable idea to pursue. The question is, what is 'supported'.

(and to be sure, were a player of mine to spend a few actions throwing small stone blocks around the battlefield and then try wall of stone, I'd have to ask how a few small bricks are going to "solidly support" a massive stone wall).

The wall is not massive. It only creates 5'x5'x1" per level, 2 cubic feet of stone which is not all that heavy. It would depend much more on the surface that it was on. But given at higher level the wall does get larger how much stone is required to support it?

To be fair, if that player instead threw a bead of 'dust of dryness' that had sucked up 100 gallons of water into a battle on a grassy field, then used 'transmute mud to rock', I'd let it adversely affect everyone in the area and then let the player go nuts with wall of stone, and probably throw him or her a bonus as well for being awesome.

I don't have or get 5th level spells so this wouldn't work for me. I had considered stone call but what happens when the stone called disappears?

I think it's better to alter the things you don't like for your game but to deal with the technical wording of the spell, why couldn't I use 4 small stone blocks as feet and cast the spell to merge with them and be supported by them. This would allow it to be cast without native stone outcroppings.

I really like this spell and hate to give up the environments that I can use it in. So a bit of rule lawyering..

If you make a wall of stone hanging from the ceiling is it 'resting on a firm foundation'?

Basically it's saying you can make any shape you want so long as it's solidly supported by existing stone.

Good point, I had not considered the ceiling. Technically it wouldn't be 'resting'. I have to reluctantly agree. I think it greatly curtails the usefulness of the spell.

The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must be solidly supported and some stone be present where the wall will form.

More similar to a wall of ice. That would prevent the pancake affect but give it back some of the versatility that made it a must have.

Happler wrote:

Wall of Stone + Stone to Flesh = Feed a village?

Lol...

Tastes like chicken?

Ultradan

Maybe more like rock lobster?

"however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."

...

I don't see where this phrase is ambiguous at all. MUST is a pretty strong word.

I can understand dropping the requirement for merging with an existing stone surface, but the spell is obviously worded in such a way as to preclude dropping it on someone. Contrast it with Wall of Iron which explicitly allows tipping it on someone.

As for being useless everywhere but dungeons or mountain climbing... the vast majority of in game structures are either predominantly made of stone, or at least have stone floors or walls. So suggesting it needs to be tweaked because it's 'useless' is a non-starter.

The MUST as I said is in reference to s specific situation. To use it in a stationary way it needs to merge or it falls. Why does it specifically say that it does NOT require a firm foundation? Existing stone would be a firm foundation would it not? For example, if you are not right handed and not ambidextrous then you MUST hold the pen in your left hand. This doesn't mean that you must hold the pen in your left hand, it means that given the other two conditions that you must.

The dropping was just an idea. There are many things you can do with a spell that aren't listed specifically. Given how many of the other wall spells are worded I could see that as an attempt to prevent squashing people since wall of stone is not held magically in place. It actually makes a lot of sense that was what they were attempting to do.

Most of the campaign I've been in has not readily had stone available. Currently in a swamp. Might be interesting to play it that the granite block component has to be in the place where the wall is created.

Carry a long flat 10# stone brick with you. Put it down. Cast wall of stone with one corner on your 'cornerstone'. Existing Stone + Wall of Stone = House.

I still want to know what happens when you drop a group of enemies into a summoned pit, then wall of stone over the top, then dismiss the pit.

I like the idea, but I would have to assume that the pit would "fill back in" from the existing sides and push them out, like the end of the rope trick spell. Not sure if the wall would be heavy enough to do any real damage. Might be good for a swarm if you could get them in the trap.

No action on this in awhile but it came up in our campaign. It seems that most people feel that you need exposed stone to cast the spell.

There is never any mention of the spell failing if there is no native stone structure in the ground.

"This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces." So if there is rock there it merges but says nothing about being necessary.

"The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."
This can be viewed in several ways. A wall of force (cannot move) is magic and stays in its orientation because it's magic. Same for a wall of fire (immobile), wall of iron (inserts itself into surroundings) etc.
The wall of stone is somewhat unique in that it is not held in place by magic and so if it is not attached it is affected by normal physical forces. It also does not dissipate or end. This quote, as I read it, is referring to specific instances in which the use of the wall is:
1) not vertical. Meaning that if it is vertical (balanced) then the same needs might not apply.
2) Does not have a firm foundation. Isn't rock a firm foundation so if it needs rock then this wouldn't make sense? Which would seem to make this a different instance.
The instance is non-vertical and no firm foundation, i.e. that you can't cast the wall of stone and have it float in the air. If you want to complete a bridge (that won't slide off when you stand on it) then it merges into existing stone. If you want to have a cantilevered platform then it must be anchored. Otherwise normal physics (if they work in your world) apply.
Without this the wall of stone is useless unless you are in a dungeon or mountain climbing.
Example: I cast horizontal wall of stone over my enemies so the wall will pancake them. They get their reflex save the same as if I was trying to enclose them.
Example: I cast wall of stone vertical on the beach. It digs into the sand somewhat from its weight and then falls over, or has some decent chance of falling over.
Example: I make a cube of rock over the water (or in the water) and it falls into the water and sinks.
This certainly makes the spell more useful and I think is more how people typically play it.