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I have not picked up The Prince of Wolves yet, but plan to soon.
For those have have it, and have read it (or are reading it) ... what do you think? How is is? How does it compare to other similar fantasy novels?
Thanks!
My advice would be to read the first few pathfinder web fiction "The Lost Pathfinder
by Dave Gross" Here are the links: Part 1Prince of Wolves is the same style of story-telling, with the same characters. This web fiction also ties more or less directly to the book. If you enjoy the web fiction, basically add the movie 'the brotherhood of the wolf' and the characters adventuring as pathfinders instead of staying in their hometown, and you have an idea of what you'll find.
I liked it very much, but the first person mode jumping from one character to another can take some getting used to.
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Hi all -
I have been reading Asimov's Foundation Series (with the add-ons from Brin, Bear and another B named author). I halted after finishing so that I could read Prince of Wolves. I finished reading it on Monday 08/16.
The first irritation came however from the Count writing to a person, whom we don't know. I'm just now starting to read the Web fiction section, so that might explain a couple things.
For background, I really hope that Mark Moreland (Yoda8MyHead) places many of the locations on that map of his. Dave lists off locations in Ulstav like Disney marks Pirate Treasure. He does a good job of explaining the details that are seen by the characters - but with a detailed map, it would make following each setting spectacular.
The story is rather good. The switching of first person between each character is OK because of their separation, however, when the two main characters meet-up, it is a little draining to follow each switch.
The physical descriptions of Radovan are excellent as are the descriptions of his changes. Same with Azra the Witch. With both of these characters I kept thinking back to Pathfinder Rules - how does he do this, is that dance part of a ritual? Does PFRPG have rituals? I guess I need to review the Witch class a bit more. What class is Radovan and how can a character get 'hellspawn' as a background to get his immunities.
This really became apparent when the Count was using scrolls in a different way than what I'm used to understanding. That and the bad guy. I'd like to know more about that particular monster - what powers it has and how did it do certain things. Again, this is more of a PFRPG rules standpoint, because if I were just reading a novel that wasn't set in the PFRPG Game World, I wouldn't care how these things came about, they would just be part of the natural/unnatural world.
So I'd like to see character sheets, creature cards for some of the monsters in addition to the glossary (which is mighty helpful).
In all, a very quick and easy read - with many adjectives and details that many modern books seem to lack. It wasn't like reading Dune in describing the room with the needle - only 1/2 a page instead of 3, but the detail was still there.
Theocrat Issak
Contributor
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For those have have it, and have read it (or are reading it) ... what do you think? How is is? How does it compare to other similar fantasy novels?
There are some more (very positive) reactions on the product page.
While I'm not normally in favor of statting up fiction stuff, there's a tie-in article in the latest Kobold Quarterly that has stats for Radovan, as well as some stats for new spells, magic items, etc. introduced in the book. Hope that helps!
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There are some more (very positive) reactions on the product page.For those have have it, and have read it (or are reading it) ... what do you think? How is is? How does it compare to other similar fantasy novels?
Thanks Dave!
Just finished reading the reviews - sounds like a pretty darn good book!
Looks like I'm off to go order the book now ... :)
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I have not picked up The Prince of Wolves yet, but plan to soon.
For those have have it, and have read it (or are reading it) ... what do you think? How is is? How does it compare to other similar fantasy novels?
Thanks!
My advice would be to read the first few pathfinder web fiction "The Lost Pathfinder
by Dave Gross" Here are the links: Part 1Prince of Wolves is the same style of story-telling, with the same characters. This web fiction also ties more or less directly to the book. If you enjoy the web fiction, basically add the movie 'the brotherhood of the wolf' and the characters adventuring as pathfinders instead of staying in their hometown, and you have an idea of what you'll find.
I liked it very much, but the first person mode jumping from one character to another can take some getting used to.
Yea the first person thing was a bit hard to get use to but I'm at page 90ish now and am really enjoying it. Wish I had more time to read than an hour or two before I go to sleep. Work sucks wouldn't it be cool to be independently wealthy.
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First person is a really useful tool for creating mysteries. In third person narratives things that the author withholds feel like the author is cheating you, with first person it is different.
Arthur Conan Doyle wrote all of the Holmes stories from Watson's point-of-view and that contributes to the sense of unfolding mystery and the reader's attempts to figure out the mystery first. This was done rather neatly a few times, especially when Radovan was the narrator and Varian had figured out something that still puzzled other characters.
The dual voice helped to establish character as well - we got to see them through their own eyes and those of others.
I felt the contrast in styles worked really well, especially in that Varian was writing a letter to someone else at first and thus had to be careful what he said at times (about Asmodeus, for example).
It's also a really fun book. A lot of serious fantasy can be ponderous but there is a light touch and warm wit to the novel.
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Contributor
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I too found the shifting perspective disorienting at first. I would have appreciated some formatting to clue you in to whose POV we were reading from.
I briefly considered doing that, and later I know the design team were considering a graphic treatment to differentiate the two different POVs, at least until the shrinking production schedule made that unfeasible. I thought at first it wouldn't be a problem for anyone, since it alternates every chapter, but several folks have mentioned this.
How many others would find some sort of textual or graphical clue helpful in signally a shift from one POV to the other? At the same time, how many had no trouble identifying the shift by tone and language? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm sure the editorial and design team would be interested in hearing more about it too.
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Figuring out the perspective shifts was a bit of a challenge when I first read the CoT Pathfinder Journal, but by the time I was through that, I pretty much had it figured out.
That said, I wouldn't mind some sort of indicator. A font shift might be a bit much, but an icon at the beginning of the chapter would work.
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I too found the shifting perspective disorienting at first. I would have appreciated some formatting to clue you in to whose POV we were reading from.I briefly considered doing that, and later I know the design team were considering a graphic treatment to differentiate the two different POVs, at least until the shrinking production schedule made that unfeasible. I thought at first it wouldn't be a problem for anyone, since it alternates every chapter, but several folks have mentioned this.
How many others would find some sort of textual or graphical clue helpful in signally a shift from one POV to the other? At the same time, how many had no trouble identifying the shift by tone and language? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm sure the editorial and design team would be interested in hearing more about it too.
I tend to read, novels, in small chunks and usually when I am tired so, while I did notice the fact that it went back and forth each chapter, I didn't always remember when I got to a chapter break. If that makes any sense.
That said I don't want this to detract from the fact that I did enjoy the book.
Graywulfe
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I just finished today, and really liked it. I'll try to post a full review over the weekend. As for the POV, I had no problem with it. I've read many books that do something like this (Harry Turtledove tends to have a dozen main POV characters, and shifts between them over the course of large 4-6 book series, so I guess I'm used to it.)
One thing I really liked was that even at the end of the book, I still couldn't tell 100% what class one of the main supporting characters was (Azra), and I thought it was great. She was called a cleric and a witch in the book, and while I could see statting her up as either, I personally felt an oracle would be the best fit. The fact that the book portrayed her as a character first, and didn't worry about making it 100% clear to the reader what game stats she had was a good thing for me though. With all of the spellcasting classes out there now, PCs shouldn't know exactly what they're facing, and neither did the characters in the book worry about properly identifying which class she was - they learned what she can do, and acted appropriately.
I'm even more eagerly looking forward to more, both from Pathfinder Tales and Radovan and the Count. Way to start the product line off on a strong start.
Chief Technical Officer
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A map was definitely desired by all involved, but timing prevented it from happening with this first book. I think all of the others will start with a map.One thing that would be great is adding a location map at the start of the book.I second this.
Timing, plus we hadn't budgeted for it. But you're correct that we all decided it was a good idea going forward; starting with Winter Witch, they're all budgeted to have maps.
(I got to read Winter Witch this week, by the way, and I think those of you who like Prince of Wolves will like Winter Witch as well. I'm really happy with it.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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One thing I really liked was that even at the end of the book, I still couldn't tell 100% what class one of the main supporting characters was (Azra), and I thought it was great.
Many people in Golarion wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to actually make a distinction between a wizard and a witch, or between a fighter and a barbarian. And even if they did, they might use different words than you'd use.
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Contributor
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One thing I really liked was that even at the end of the book, I still couldn't tell 100% what class one of the main supporting characters was (Azra), and I thought it was great. She was called a cleric and a witch in the book, and while I could see statting her up as either, I personally felt an oracle would be the best fit. The fact that the book portrayed her as a character first, and didn't worry about making it 100% clear to the reader what game stats she had was a good thing for me though. With all of the spellcasting classes out there now, PCs shouldn't know exactly what they're facing, and neither did the characters in the book worry about properly identifying which class she was - they learned what she can do, and acted appropriately.
This was intentional, and thanks for noticing. :) In Joss Whedon terms, I like to "vague it up" when a concrete answer is less interesting than the explanation, or when there's a mystery whose revelation is not yet ripe. Also, I like game rules as an interpretation of story more than the other way around.
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I too found the shifting perspective disorienting at first. I would have appreciated some formatting to clue you in to whose POV we were reading from.I briefly considered doing that, and later I know the design team were considering a graphic treatment to differentiate the two different POVs, at least until the shrinking production schedule made that unfeasible. I thought at first it wouldn't be a problem for anyone, since it alternates every chapter, but several folks have mentioned this.
How many others would find some sort of textual or graphical clue helpful in signally a shift from one POV to the other? At the same time, how many had no trouble identifying the shift by tone and language? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm sure the editorial and design team would be interested in hearing more about it too.
still need to read my copy (sorry Before they were giants has priority right now) but White Wolf Clan Novels have trained me well enough for the change on perspectives, so i won't have problems there
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This was intentional, and thanks for noticing. :) In Joss Whedon terms, I like to "vague it up" when a concrete answer is less interesting than the explanation, or when there's a mystery whose revelation is not yet ripe. Also, I like game rules as an interpretation of story more than the other way around.
Thank you for doing that. Personally, the last thing I want to read is about is a stat block being moved around like a puppet. I already have players who do that just fine, thank you very much ^_^.
How was it?- well I started reading it last night at 7.10pm and finished it at 1.30AM this morning, which believe me, was unintentional as I have work today. I just couldn't put it down.
The switching of main characters in each chapter was both annoying and riveting at the same time. You get to the end of a chapter, get to what is somewhat of a cliff hanger for that character then you get the continuation of the next characters story... it was driving me crazy cause I wanted to find out what had happened to the other character, but as I read on in the new chapter and got to the end it, I wanted to find out what was going to happen to that character and so it went on and on like a merry-go-round. Please be aware that that I say this not as a criticism of Dave's writing but as a huge compliment cause he kept me hooked and wanting more and kept providing it!
Actually, if you are aware of the old style Dr Who shows it was like that - a cliff hanger waiting to be picked up for the next exciting episode. Every chapter was like that, every single one…hence no sleep for me because I just had to know what was going to happen next.
The writing was very descriptive allowing for a rich tapestry of imagery in your mind while being very easy to read and not bogged down in detail (which is sometimes a problem when someone is describing a fantasy setting). The pace was good (well great - hence my inability to put the book down)
I particularly enjoyed the characters development and discovery, especially Azra and Radovan and really hope Dave gets to write more about them.
All up I think this was an ideal novel to start the Pathfinder Tails. I really look forward to further novels by Dave and am now keen to see what the other authors are going to produce!
Cheers
Blackcat
we can still get it in the blog :PA map was definitely desired by all involved, but timing prevented it from happening with this first book. I think all of the others will start with a map.One thing that would be great is adding a location map at the start of the book.I second this.
It actually never existed, since we knew we couldn't get it in time, and I'm pretty sure that if I started asking Sarah to pay artists for art solely intended for the blog, management would set me on fire. :)
That said, if you want a map for use with Prince of Wolves, Wes's upcoming Ustalav book will have you covered, and then some...
I immensely enjoyed Prince of Wolves and I for one wouldn't mind another novel with Avistan's "Dynamic Duo".
It took me a bit to 'get' which one (Varian or Radovan) was talking... but as I got into it, it became much more obvious with the tone and language.
@James Sutter: I have that issue of KQ and I enjoyed seeing stats for Radovan (I must say I was surprised at some of his abilities... )
I'd have liked to see Varian stated out as well...
I'm really excited to be on the ground floor of the Pathfinder Tales novels, and I look forward to more.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
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Timing, plus we hadn't budgeted for it. But you're correct that we all decided it was a good idea going forward...
When people talk about moving forward in time it is clearer and more accurate to use in future.
When it is in any gear from first to fifth my car is going forward, but sadly not in time as I lack the necessary flux-capacitor.[/pedant]
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To chime in myself, while I honestly wonder about character levels and stuff for main characters in novels like these, I'm honestly fine not knowing too. It makes things feel more organic when they're not totally statted out. For instance, while Azra was called a witch numerous times, she may very well be a Cleric, or something else entirely, and I'm completely fine with that.
As for "hellspawn", it's just an in-world term for Tiefling.
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I immensely enjoyed Prince of Wolves and I for one wouldn't mind another novel with Avistan's "Dynamic Duo".
It took me a bit to 'get' which one (Varian or Radovan) was talking... but as I got into it, it became much more obvious with the tone and language.
@James Sutter: I have that issue of KQ and I enjoyed seeing stats for Radovan (I must say I was surprised at some of his abilities... )
** spoiler omitted **
I'd have liked to see Varian stated out as well...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm really excited to be on the ground floor of the Pathfinder Tales novels, and I look forward to more.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
There will be another novel with the duo,
but it won't be in Avistan...
I am almost done, and have found that it grows on you, more and more, as you get into it. A good, fast read with a little something extra. I would, and am, suggesting it to anyone.
Just finished reading after buying it from Dave Gross at Gen-Con. A few responses:
Re first person: The voices are distinctive. They're at their most delightful when Radovan and Jeggare are commenting on the same person or event through their unique lenses. The hardest leap is from chapter 1 to chapter 2 as we first get used to the convention, but it's not so much an obstacle to enjoyment as part of being pulled into Gross's narrative.
Re classes: I think Ari2/Wiz5 might be underselling Jeggare. For one, he comes across as a highly skilled swordsman through the Lepidstadt scar (a high point in the book, IMHO). For two, I think Pathfinder Chronicler is a prestige class well within reason for him.
Religion: What a great primer on Pathfinder religion. Radovan prays to Desna, the goddess of luck, and he has a variety of clever axioms to describe her reactions to his various plights.
Re what else I took away: It feels like a good D&D novel should, with a few moments that seem to come straight from a gaming table. Horribly debilitating wounds are made okay by the presence of a cleric. The rogue tells the wizard to fireball him. Search checks are conducted in libraries. That it's a mystery novel as well only adds to the fun.
Wild conjecture: I recall that Joshua Frost has specifically requested mystery adventures for the Paizo open call adventure submissions. Combined with Prince of Wolves, I'm left thinking that Pathfinder is trying to cultivate mystery-themed D&D adventure as part of its product identity.
(Thanks for the autograph, Dave.)
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I've read many books that do something like this (Harry Turtledove tends to have a dozen main POV characters, and shifts between them over the course of large 4-6 book series, so I guess I'm used to it.)
Turtledove has a way of letting you know in the first sentence who the main POV is though. Either through someone calling out the POV's name or some location mark. Easier for Turtledove because his characters are usually so spread out over a vast geographical war torn landscape.
Once I was able to tell by the style of voice used (written) between Radovan and the count, it got easier. I would vote a graphic of some sort would help so there is no guessing between chapters.
All in all, a great book. Most importantly, I got to learn a great deal about Galorian regional lore.
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I don't understand the issue with the First Person POV at all. Authors have been doing this for years now, especially in Hard Boiled/Noir type genres. Without the First Person POV the book would have been completely different. The characters would have been completely different. And to me, that would have been a very bad thing because I loved it.
Here are a couple of things I'm curious about that I might have missed as I am not the most attentive reader:
1) What happened to those bad ass Paladins of Lastwall? Did Azra's strong theological argument (which I loved by the way) and threat to curse them really scare them off so completely? Their disappearance was so abrupt in fact that it just felt awkward and a little frustrating. I thought for sure we would be having a "Battle of the Five Armies" type ending with all the different parties that were involved. For as good as they were at sneaking up and ambushing Radovan, Varrian, and company wouldn't they have detected the Keeper of Secrets as well? Or at the very least would they not have been observing all the activity going on in their territory, with or without Azra's threat?
2) The Keeper of Secrets get burned again by the "steal book" spell. If I remember correctly, when the spell is used it erases the information from the original copy. So now that Radovan used it and gave the Codex back to Varrian aren't the Keeper of Secrets going to follow through on their original threats, go on a rampage against the Sczarni and generally just make life hell for all those left behind? Maybe even pursue Radovan and Varrian to Cheliax? And why did Varrian act so surprised about the "steal book" spell at the end? He himself had already used that tactic numerous times already. It was actually the most predictable element of the entire story.
Like I said, I'm not the most attentive reader. I often find myself skimming paragraphs, skipping the details and moving on to the next plot point, so it's very likely I simply missed some of the answers to my questions in the details. However, and I mean this as a credit to the author, I do not plan to re-read the book a second time. Unlike many other books I read, I was unable to effectively skim this particular novel. Every paragraph was filled with either clever dialogue or intriguing description and that's the stuff I love. So when my naturally lazy tendency to skim kicked in I would immediately return to the paragraph I attempted to skip and read it again. Thus I would say my first reading was actually worth three readings all together. Still, I could use some help with those questions above.
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Contributor
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Here are a couple of things I'm curious about that I might have missed as I am not the most attentive reader:
** spoiler omitted **
You seem pretty attentive to me, so I hope you'll forgive me for hinting rather than answering explicitly.
2. People who are upset don't usually think clearly, and Varian was pretty upset. Also, perhaps he did not expect that Radovan was capable of using the scroll. As for the question of grounds for future retribution... Noticed that, did you? Stay tuned. :)
I'm only a few chapters in (a sad fact I will blame on the painting crew that wrecked my condo, and therefore my reading time, this weekend), but so far it is very good.
The distinctiveness of the narrative voices was something that caught my attention in the web fiction, and it's just as strong in the novel. It's hard to write characters with such different voices and perspectives, but it's really well done here.
Radovan, especially, is a pure delight to read. He's rapidly becoming one of my favorite fantasy narrators of all time.
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Radovan, especially, is a pure delight to read. He's rapidly becoming one of my favorite fantasy narrators of all time.
In my entirely unscientific poll, 100% of women responding prefer Radovan, while the men are split, albeit still in Radovan's favor. I wonder whether that'll tilt after the next book. I think it might.
Thanks for the kind words. They mean all the more coming from you, whose web fiction has been a pure delight. I've not yet picked up The River King's Road only because I can't choose between the physical book and the audio. I'll pick one as soon as I finish Justin Cronin's The Passage, which reads (well, sounds) like a cross between the works of Stephen King and Dan Simmons.
It's a bit belated, but here's my review. I quite enjoyed the novel; moreso than most shared world fiction I've read, certainly.
The switch between POV characters didn't bother me at all. In fact, it's a common technique in a lot of mainstream thriller type novels, which this book resembles in structure, in many ways.