
Olangru |

Turin the Mad wrote:VictorCrackus wrote::) Only if you're 16th level - and only if you have not moved at all. Makes said monk rather easy to get around doesn't it?*peers at the maze counter for the monk* GO GO MONK OF THE SACRED MOUNTAIN!
Also. Lets add some glamored clothes that look like some hilarious armor, and a black tabard.
I shall challenge the wizard to combat at a small creek.
When he casts maze, I shall chuckle and point at him.
"I move, for no man!"
Obviously quite a bit of set up.. But hey. Its funny.
Thats what you think.
Just wait until the monk pulls open his robes to reveal...
THOUSANDS OF HORRIBLE TENTACLES THAT STRETCH FOR MILES AND MILES!
Yeah. Watch out and stuff.
^_^ Tentacles ... my boss just loves tentacles ...

Turin the Mad |

Level 20 Fighter can get his AC to this with Magic Items.
Base = 10
Dexterity 24 = +7
Shield +5 = +7
Mithrul Full Plate +5 = +14
Greater Shield Focus/Shield Focus = +2
Ring of Protection +5 = +5
Combat Expertise = +6
Dodge = +1
Ioun Stone (Insight AC Bonus) = +1
Amulet of Natural Armor+5 = +5
Boots of Speed (Haste) = +1 DodgeTotal Fighter AC = 59
Fighter cannot get more than a +3 maximum Dexterity bonus from mithral full plate (1 +2 for mithril), reducing AC to 55. Just pointing that out. :)

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Fighter cannot get more than a +3 maximum Dexterity bonus from mithral full plate (1 +2 for mithril), reducing AC to 55. Just pointing that out. :)
Maybe in 3.X, in Pathfinder fighter's get Armor Training which increases the max dex by +1 and reduces the armor check penalty by 1, every 4 levels after 3rd, to a maximum of +4 at 15. Also, if you transfer the enchantment from a suit of celestial armor, which seems to improve the max dex by 6, add that to the full plate being mithral and you can get a ludicrous maximum dex on your armor, something to the tune of +13 possible, which is very very difficult to get. You'll need a book, a belt, a high baseline, and probably a template.

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I can't see your point because I can't understand your post.
Although I can answer why the monk has one left over feat. It's because the designers gave him two bonus feats on top of his regular feat.
technically monks get 2 weapon fighting, Double slice,and Improved unarmed strike at 1st..

Turin the Mad |

Turin the Mad wrote:Fighter cannot get more than a +3 maximum Dexterity bonus from mithral full plate (1 +2 for mithril), reducing AC to 55. Just pointing that out. :)Maybe in 3.X, in Pathfinder fighter's get Armor Training which increases the max dex by +1 and reduces the armor check penalty by 1, every 4 levels after 3rd, to a maximum of +4 at 15. Also, if you transfer the enchantment from a suit of celestial armor, which seems to improve the max dex by 6, add that to the full plate being mithral and you can get a ludicrous maximum dex on your armor, something to the tune of +13 possible, which is very very difficult to get. You'll need a book, a belt, a high baseline, and probably a template.
True on the armor training, which puts it back at 59.
Scary :)

stringburka |

Name Violation wrote:Which has nothing to do with the statement 'Fighters and Monks can get Deflect Arrows at level 1 with the same amount of investment.'
technically monks get 2 weapon fighting, Double slice,and Improved unarmed strike at 1st..
Just because it costs the same amount of feats doesn't mean they're equally costly. It's a higher investment for a bard than a sorcerer to learn Summon Monster VI simply because sorcerers get to learn more spells.

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Turin the Mad wrote:Fighter cannot get more than a +3 maximum Dexterity bonus from mithral full plate (1 +2 for mithril), reducing AC to 55. Just pointing that out. :)Maybe in 3.X, in Pathfinder fighter's get Armor Training which increases the max dex by +1 and reduces the armor check penalty by 1, every 4 levels after 3rd, to a maximum of +4 at 15. Also, if you transfer the enchantment from a suit of celestial armor, which seems to improve the max dex by 6, add that to the full plate being mithral and you can get a ludicrous maximum dex on your armor, something to the tune of +13 possible, which is very very difficult to get. You'll need a book, a belt, a high baseline, and probably a template.
The celestial armor is not an "enchant" it's the nature of the armor itself which gives it it's properties, it's not something that can be "transfered" to mere mithral.

KaeYoss |

Fighters, for example, are meant to deal out small amounts of damage consistently over longer periods of time.
Make that "huge amounts" and we're on the same page.
Damage is what fighters to. Warriors in general.
Spellcasters can do well with damage - but not concentrated. Instead, they spread it out. That means a spellcaster will probably not care too much whether there is one enemy to fry or ten.
Or they ignore that messy damage-and-HP business and just hex the sucker till he glows and kill him in the dark.

KaeYoss |

Theo Stern wrote:Also a 25 point buy is quite powerful. I gave my party a 17 point buy and they are doing well in all modules so far.Bah. 25 isn't enough. I'd accept a 20 buy where everything is one for one, though.
I prefer 18d1 organic (i.e. in row, you don't get to decide where your stats to)

Anburaid |

Monks, by virtue of their ability dependent powers, tend to jump up in their relative effectiveness compared to other classes, when they get a higher point-buy. It's also why they have a bad rep when used at standard point-buy. Every point counts for monks. This is especially true of a high strength, as their multitude of attacks means that their strength bonus can add to their damage more often, assuming they hit.
Against standard opponents a high point-buy monk is going to look like beast, because he is essentially fighting enemies with lower dex/lowerAC. His own to-hit is pumped up, and he is probably hitting with as many iteratives as the fighter (technically more because he gets more attacks). The fighter is hitting just as well, if not better, but the fighter is not seeing quite the benefit, because his abilities favor him in an environment with more highly armored opponents.
Actually I wonder if the fighter using the same point-buy is as optimized as the monk. A lot of people tend to use high point buys to spread their attributes more. If the fighter just dumped most of his points into strength it's likely he would keep up with the monk in his party.
Lesson to take from this is that stats matter.

Brian Bachman |

And, no, monks aren't "broken". The monk in question that started this entire thread is a 25-point buy PC with over-the-limit wealth. There might be someting broken in there, but it isn't the class per se.
Very good point. How many times do adventuring groups automatically break to sleep for the night when the spellcasters are low on spells, even if they've only been going for an hour or two? This is quite common in my experience. Put the party in a situation where they can't rest then or when their rest is interrupted by foes, preventing spellcaster recharging and then suddenly its not the non-spellcasters who are looking weak. Similarly, if the group is facing a preponderance of foes with high SR, the melee characters become much more important.
On the point of whether the monk is "broken" in a bad way, I disagree. First, the speed and other skills of the monk make them extremely valuable as a fast scout. Their greatest contributions are not in combat, in my opinion. Also very nice to be able to run down retreating enemies virtually at will (at least the non-flying ones). We've used this to acquire valuable prisoners many times. An already demoralized fleeing opponent usually just gives up when he realizes he can't get away.
Second, because of the greater number of attacks a monk has, he can quickly become a combat monster with buffs, which will proportionally improve his power more than the fighter. It quickly became my rule to buff the monk first for that reason. In our experience, a hasted, bull strengthed mid-level monk could put a hurting on an opponent pretty damn quick. Greater number of attacks also mean greater chance for crits, and if you use the critical hits deck as we do, that is pretty devastating.
Moving in a different direction, a spring-attacking monk with a 50' movement rate can be very frustrating for a heavily armored opponent. I LOVE the tactical options that all that speed brings. As my former boxing trainer used to tell me all the time: "Speed kills".

Brian Bachman |

Kais86 wrote:Speaking of the durability of spell casters. I don't like the concept of the squishy wizard. Only a few times in fiction have wizards been depicted as easily knocked down. Typically they are closer to magically-empowered battle tanks than glass canons. Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom, Doctor Druid, Constantine, The Phantom Stranger, Gandalf, Nanoha Takamachi and most of her team, Saruman, Harry Potter and the other members of the wizarding community (even if they are rather inept), Negi Springfield, so on and so forth. The weakest individual on the list can take what basically amounts to a cannon ball to the chest, then a 30 foot drop, and he's 12 when this is shown. Most spell-using individuals areSorry, finishing up this particular rant. Most spell-using individuals are, at minimum, at the peak of real human durability, so it always strikes me as wrong that they get the proverbial shaft in the hp department. Some of the more epic casters on that list are literally in the kryptonian class when it comes to durability and offenses. I'm actually at a loss for who is the most powerful, but I know that Nanoha has a mean wave-motion gun, she fights magically enhanced battleships and tends to come ahead.
Works fine in fiction, but not in games, if game balance means anything at all to you.

Jason Rice |

I don't think anyone else pointed this out (if they did, sorry for the repeat), but it doesn't matter if your AC is 1,000,000. You are still going to get hit at least 5% of the time (chance of rolling a 20).
That doesn't even count attacks that target your other stats. Those being your CMD, Fort, Reflex, and Will. Then there is also stuff like swim checks and holding your breath that can be potentially deadly. Sure, your character rocks on defense, but he's not untouchable.

Brian Bachman |

Monks, by virtue of their ability dependent powers, tend to jump up in their relative effectiveness compared to other classes, when they get a higher point-buy. It's also why they have a bad rep when used at standard point-buy. Every point counts for monks. This is especially true of a high strength, as their multitude of attacks means that their strength bonus can add to their damage more often, assuming they hit.
Against standard opponents a high point-buy monk is going to look like beast, because he is essentially fighting enemies with lower dex/lowerAC. His own to-hit is pumped up, and he is probably hitting with as many iteratives as the fighter (technically more because he gets more attacks). The fighter is hitting just as well, if not better, but the fighter is not seeing quite the benefit, because his abilities favor him in an environment with more highly armored opponents.
Actually I wonder if the fighter using the same point-buy is as optimized as the monk. A lot of people tend to use high point buys to spread their attributes more. If the fighter just dumped most of his points into strength it's likely he would keep up with the monk in his party.
Lesson to take from this is that stats matter.
Good point on the relative point buy. We roll the bones, and our monks have ended up with pretty decent scores all around, which could be why I see them as pretty potent. There have been several lengthy threads on the relative merits of SAD vs. MAD characters at different level point buys that amuse me. Not an issue if you roll.

Fractal |
Fractal wrote:If the DM is intent on making decisions that overcome character's abilities without any actual justification for them, then that kind of defeats any meaningful argument on the capabilities of any character doesn't it?I'm going to ignore your strawman because it is a strawman and because it is off-topic.
Monks aren't broken. If a DM is going to allow more powerful characters (due to higher point buy, more magic items, custom magic items, et cetera), then those involved in that campaign should expect the PCs to outmatch challenges written to be level-appropriate for characters built within the game's guidelines.
That these more-powerful-than-recommended-for-their-level characters appear to run roughshod over the game doesn't make any part of the game broken. Granted, something might be considered broken, but that goes right back to play-style.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Sorry, my straw man? I do believe it was you arguing that the DM could prevent casters from having an 15 minute adventuring day if they so wished. Clearly the DM can fix any problem that they wish in the game, that doesn't mean that the rules are not imbalanced to begin with, the DM is a mystical force that we should clearly leave out of any meaningful RAW discussion.
It may be that a more powerful group can expect to face more powerful opponents but that doesn't change the fact that the caster can still leave while the monk has no personal ability to escape the scene other than hoping he can run very very fast without provoking too many attacks of opportunity!
Indeed, you are correct that these powerful characters should not necessarily be considered broken, that is highly dependant upon the power level of the game. However, the original point of this thread was discussing the relative power level of Monks to the other classes and while there may be unusual circumstances in which a monk might appear to be quite effective (when alongside an unoptimised party and with large points buy and wealth, for example), they are still objectively inferior to the casting classes.

KaeYoss |

KaeYoss wrote:so....wrong....Olangru wrote:Nah, you know who loves them? Tien schoolgirls. And priestesses of Iomedae.^_^ Tentacles ... my boss just loves tentacles ...
"But it feels so right!"
At least that's what I think they say. May Tien is a bit rusty. It might also be "Someone please help me!" Those two are quite close together.

Turin the Mad |

Cold Napalm wrote:KaeYoss wrote:so....wrong....Olangru wrote:Nah, you know who loves them? Tien schoolgirls. And priestesses of Iomedae.^_^ Tentacles ... my boss just loves tentacles ...
"But it feels so right!"
At least that's what I think they say. May Tien is a bit rusty. It might also be "Someone please help me!" Those two are quite close together.
As is " oh .. do ... stop ... stop! STOP! don't ... don't ... stop ... don't stop ... " The ideograms mess things up ...

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Works fine in fiction, but not in games, if game balance means anything at all to you.
How so? Works just fine in hero system. You can make magical and non-magical bricks.
I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the concept of the "brick", what it really means is that the character is really tough. Bricks tend to be slow and dumb but very hard to take out of a fight, though I've seen them come in all shapes, sizes, and abilities. Sometimes you get a fast, strong, tough, smart, wise, charismatic, and nimble brick, sometimes you get a meat wall.

Anburaid |

Brian Bachman wrote:Works fine in fiction, but not in games, if game balance means anything at all to you.How so? Works just fine in hero system. You can make magical and non-magical bricks.
I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the concept of the "brick", what it really means is that the character is really tough. Bricks tend to be slow and dumb but very hard to take out of a fight, though I've seen them come in all shapes, sizes, and abilities. Sometimes you get a fast, strong, tough, smart, wise, charismatic, and nimble brick, sometimes you get a meat wall.
I have always liked the term "meat shield", myself.

KaeYoss |

KaeYoss wrote:As is " oh .. do ... stop ... stop! STOP! don't ... don't ... stop ... don't stop ... " The ideograms mess things up ...Cold Napalm wrote:KaeYoss wrote:so....wrong....Olangru wrote:Nah, you know who loves them? Tien schoolgirls. And priestesses of Iomedae.^_^ Tentacles ... my boss just loves tentacles ...
"But it feels so right!"
At least that's what I think they say. May Tien is a bit rusty. It might also be "Someone please help me!" Those two are quite close together.
Plus, slight changes in pronunciation can apparently shift the meaning of what was spoken considerably.

VictorCrackus |

Turin the Mad wrote:Plus, slight changes in pronunciation can apparently shift the meaning of what was spoken considerably.KaeYoss wrote:As is " oh .. do ... stop ... stop! STOP! don't ... don't ... stop ... don't stop ... " The ideograms mess things up ...Cold Napalm wrote:KaeYoss wrote:so....wrong....Olangru wrote:Nah, you know who loves them? Tien schoolgirls. And priestesses of Iomedae.^_^ Tentacles ... my boss just loves tentacles ...
"But it feels so right!"
At least that's what I think they say. May Tien is a bit rusty. It might also be "Someone please help me!" Those two are quite close together.
Know what else loves tentacles?
Rogues that cheat on hide(Stealth) checks.
Things with tentacles generally have some sort of blindsight.... Mwhahaha.

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus |

Mithril Full plate +5 AC 14 (max dex +3) = 17
Shield +5 AC = 7
Ring AC +5 (deflection)
Amulet Natural Armor +5Total AC = 44 (accesible for all characters with heavy armor competence. At high level, of course)
Add these "settings" to anyone Paladin Smiting with Cha+7....AC 51...
Forget Mithral, try Celestial Plate Max Dex +6
I still stand with my statement in pathfinder beta, armor is just a gimp, not literally any more though.

Ion Raven |

Spes Magna Mark wrote:Fractal wrote:If the DM is intent on making decisions that overcome character's abilities without any actual justification for them, then that kind of defeats any meaningful argument on the capabilities of any character doesn't it?I'm going to ignore your strawman because it is a strawman and because it is off-topic.
Monks aren't broken. If a DM is going to allow more powerful characters (due to higher point buy, more magic items, custom magic items, et cetera), then those involved in that campaign should expect the PCs to outmatch challenges written to be level-appropriate for characters built within the game's guidelines.
That these more-powerful-than-recommended-for-their-level characters appear to run roughshod over the game doesn't make any part of the game broken. Granted, something might be considered broken, but that goes right back to play-style.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Sorry, my straw man? I do believe it was you arguing that the DM could prevent casters from having an 15 minute adventuring day if they so wished. Clearly the DM can fix any problem that they wish in the game, that doesn't mean that the rules are not imbalanced to begin with, the DM is a mystical force that we should clearly leave out of any meaningful RAW discussion.
It may be that a more powerful group can expect to face more powerful opponents but that doesn't change the fact that the caster can still leave while the monk has no personal ability to escape the scene other than hoping he can run very very fast without provoking too many attacks of opportunity!
Indeed, you are correct that these powerful characters should not necessarily be considered broken, that is highly dependant upon the power level of the game. However, the original point of this thread was discussing the relative power level of Monks to the other classes and while there may be unusual circumstances in which...
Rules don't write the adventures. In all honesty, high AC is just another situational strength. AC doesn't protect you from fireballs raining down on your party. Paladins have ridiculous saves because of their divine grace; and many other classes have things that they are ridiculously good at. The DM is responsible for the situations the party gets in, and the party is responsible for setting up tactics that make the most out of everyone's abilities.
I've seen a Aasimar Paladin/Sorcerer bluff his AC to 25 at level 3. Shield + Mage Armor Spells along with Smite, added to his Dex.

Fractal |
If that was directed at me, I'm not sure what your point was? It may be that rules don't write adventures but that doesn't mean we should include in a rules discussion what a DM might decide to do to make things more balanced.
Either way, I agree that high AC is not necessarily overwhelming useful on its own.
I'm quite sure that a Paladin can have extremely good AC in addition to extremely high saves. The Paladin was one of the classes that really gained a lot in Pathfinder and, unlike the Monk, its abilities actually synergise - making it quite good.

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LoreKeeper wrote:No, not really. It's the silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil thing that really gets me. So I guess I could carry 5 or 6 pairs of brass knuckles around but really...@overdark:
You'll be happy to hear that the brass knuckles (APG) allow you to use monk unarmed damage progression, but still are an enchantable weapon. So you can get all the DR bypassing that everybody else has. But doesn't combo with the amulet of mighty-fists. Still good :)
Okay, maybe I am confused, but this statement always gets me.
A +4 weapon automatically overcomes adamantine, silver, and cold iron, right? How many bad guys have DR against both good and evil?
so, if you are in a good campaign, get yourself a +4 weapon, and have somebody around to cast holy on it, better yet, buy a 50 gold piece oil of bless weapon.
if you are in an evil campaign, get yourself a +4 weapon, and have somebody around to cast the opposite of holy on it, etc.
Am I missing something?

mentallyhurt |
Gabriel Albasombria wrote:OK, I guess it's not so difficult. But still that is pretty much un-hittable by MOST monsters (and NPC's), my Monk can't reliably generate attacks like that.Mithril Full plate +5 AC 14 (max dex +3) = 17
Shield +5 AC = 7
Ring AC +5 (deflection)
Amulet Natural Armor +5Total AC = 44 (accesible for all characters with heavy armor competence. At high level, of course)
Add these "settings" to anyone Paladin Smiting with Cha+7....AC 51...
yeah but add up the cost of all that equipment and compare it to the amount of money balanced characters are supposed to have. its not easy by those standards at all.

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overdark wrote:LoreKeeper wrote:No, not really. It's the silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil thing that really gets me. So I guess I could carry 5 or 6 pairs of brass knuckles around but really...@overdark:
You'll be happy to hear that the brass knuckles (APG) allow you to use monk unarmed damage progression, but still are an enchantable weapon. So you can get all the DR bypassing that everybody else has. But doesn't combo with the amulet of mighty-fists. Still good :)
Okay, maybe I am confused, but this statement always gets me.
A +4 weapon automatically overcomes adamantine, silver, and cold iron, right? How many bad guys have DR against both good and evil?
so, if you are in a good campaign, get yourself a +4 weapon, and have somebody around to cast holy on it, better yet, buy a 50 gold piece oil of bless weapon.
if you are in an evil campaign, get yourself a +4 weapon, and have somebody around to cast the opposite of holy on it, etc.
Am I missing something?
You're not missing anything, though a lot of other people are. People tend to miss this little tidbit:
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does

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Slap a pair of Brass knuckles on a monk and his damage really isn't much less than any other melee class', depending on what level you're working with. A Flurrying monk is only, at worst, 8 to-hit behind a two-weapon fighter at near 20th level, with fists that are hitting for some fairly substantial damage die. The only thing that really hinders the monk is his stat dependency for class abilities, but that really comes down to the fact that monks require a more experienced player who know how to build them. I think monks aren't as easy for a new player, or a player with limited system mastery, to jump into as other classes, but they are not particularly better or worse than any other non-spellcasting class if you know what you're doing.
Monks also have some of the best archetypes in the game, with Zen Archer, Sohei, Qinggong, and Maneuver Master.

Starbuck_II |

Slap a pair of Brass knuckles on a monk and his damage really isn't much less than any other melee class', depending on what level you're working with. A Flurrying monk is only, at worst, 8 to-hit behind a two-weapon fighter at near 20th level, with fists that are hitting for some fairly substantial damage die. The only thing that really hinders the monk is his stat dependency for class abilities, but that really comes down to the fact that monks require a more experienced player who know how to build them. I think monks aren't as easy for a new player, or a player with limited system mastery, to jump into as other classes, but they are not particularly better or worse than any other non-spellcasting class if you know what you're doing.
Monks also have some of the best archetypes in the game, with Zen Archer, Sohei, Qinggong, and Maneuver Master.
I thought they nerfed Knuckles? I remember a discussion about it.

Dabbler |

Slap a pair of Brass knuckles on a monk and his damage really isn't much less than any other melee class', depending on what level you're working with.
Brass knuckles were errata'd to do 1d3 damage, no monk unarmed damage allowed.
A Flurrying monk is only, at worst, 8 to-hit behind a two-weapon fighter at near 20th level, with fists that are hitting for some fairly substantial damage die.
Yes, and that 8-point difference is worth a LOT. Having large damage dice means nothing if you miss. On average, +8 to hit is worth +16 damage per hit. The monk's low chances to hit and lack of enhancement opportunities are his biggest problem, and the main reason flurry-of-blows is often called flurry-of-misses.
The only thing that really hinders the monk is his stat dependency for class abilities, but that really comes down to the fact that monks require a more experienced player who know how to build them.
Monks are the MADest class, I agree, but lack of enhancement options (amulet of mighty fists or nothing) is their largest hindrance to functional offensive ability.
I think monks aren't as easy for a new player, or a player with limited system mastery, to jump into as other classes, but they are not particularly better or worse than any other non-spellcasting class if you know what you're doing.
I would say the monk is the hardest class to make work as a functional party member, but one of the best defensive classes in the game.
Monks also have some of the best archetypes in the game, with Zen Archer, Sohei, Qinggong, and Maneuver Master.
That's because the core monk is so poor.