I have added a small incentive toward not dumping charisma completely - by making will saves dependent upon wisdom or charisma, depending upon the effect.
For example: If someone casts a 'Dominate Person' the target must make a charisma based will save. This is because the caster is trying to overcome the target's own force of personality, seems logical to me that charisma, not wisdom, is the key attribute there. Similarly for most Enchantment [Mind-Affecting] spells.
If someone casts an illusion however, that is more of an attempt to beguile the target's senses, in this case they must make a wisdom based will save.
It seems to result in a reasonable mix of the two types of save being made.
If that was directed at me, I'm not sure what your point was? It may be that rules don't write adventures but that doesn't mean we should include in a rules discussion what a DM might decide to do to make things more balanced.
Either way, I agree that high AC is not necessarily overwhelming useful on its own.
I'm quite sure that a Paladin can have extremely good AC in addition to extremely high saves. The Paladin was one of the classes that really gained a lot in Pathfinder and, unlike the Monk, its abilities actually synergise - making it quite good.
Apologies, I must have missed the d4/caster level of the Orb of Force (knew it had the caster level 10 cap but thought it was still d6!), that isn't very helpful then.
If you can boost up your caster level excessively then metamagiced up Force Missiles (Spell Compendium) becomes an option, because there is no caster level cap on the number of missiles you can get. You could combine that with Alternate Spell Source to make your Arcane spells Divine (because it is usually easier to boost your Divine caster level than your Arcane one).
Another cool option would be a metamagic enhanced Sending. If you take Snowcasting you can give the Sending the [Cold] descriptor which allows you to add the Frost Spell metamagic to it - making it do 1 damage/caster level. Add Energy Admixture, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, then add Fell Drain into the mix and you have a Sending that does 8 damage/caster level + 4 negative levels at infinite range!
If the DM is intent on making decisions that overcome character's abilities without any actual justification for them, then that kind of defeats any meaningful argument on the capabilities of any character doesn't it?
I'm going to ignore your strawman because it is a strawman and because it is off-topic.
Monks aren't broken. If a DM is going to allow more powerful characters (due to higher point buy, more magic items, custom magic items, et cetera), then those involved in that campaign should expect the PCs to outmatch challenges written to be level-appropriate for characters built within the game's guidelines.
That these more-powerful-than-recommended-for-their-level characters appear to run roughshod over the game doesn't make any part of the game broken. Granted, something might be considered broken, but that goes right back to play-style.
Sorry, my straw man? I do believe it was you arguing that the DM could prevent casters from having an 15 minute adventuring day if they so wished. Clearly the DM can fix any problem that they wish in the game, that doesn't mean that the rules are not imbalanced to begin with, the DM is a mystical force that we should clearly leave out of any meaningful RAW discussion.
It may be that a more powerful group can expect to face more powerful opponents but that doesn't change the fact that the caster can still leave while the monk has no personal ability to escape the scene other than hoping he can run very very fast without provoking too many attacks of opportunity!
Indeed, you are correct that these powerful characters should not necessarily be considered broken, that is highly dependant upon the power level of the game. However, the original point of this thread was discussing the relative power level of Monks to the other classes and while there may be unusual circumstances in which a monk might appear to be quite effective (when alongside an unoptimised party and with large points buy and wealth, for example), they are still objectively inferior to the casting classes.
Part of the caster imbalance derives from the fact that the Caster has a 15-minute adventuring day if it so suits them.
Not so. The caster has a 15-minute adventuring day if it so suits the DM. The DM has much more control over the pacing of the adventuring day then the PCs do because the DM is the fellow who makes decisions about when and where encounters happen.
If the DM is intent on making decisions that overcome character's abilities without any actual justification for them, then that kind of defeats any meaningful argument on the capabilities of any character doesn't it?
It is the DM's job to create challenges and let the PCs approach those challenges inventively. If that method is "I know I can't win today so i'm leaving for now" so be it. A DM can declare that Monks are the best and make it true if they so wish, that doesn't mean it's true using the rules as written.
Sure you can make a fantastic blaster by stacking all this metamagic on certain spells. There are plenty of spells that Intensify actually works with though, so why not pick one of those instead of messing around with magic missile?
If you really want to do force damage with all those books allowed just use some Chained, Empowered, Intensified, Maximised, Repeating, Twinned Orbs of Force to deal 360+15d6*2 (Average 465) to caster level targets within 30ft over 2 rounds. You can probably just about manage all that as a 4th level spell if you really try.
Stacking metamagic like this, however, does work under the 3.5 Rules so if you have access to both, there is no problem doing this. I suspect a DM would have to want a rather high-powered game to accept all these things being combined though - something you are really relying on because you need to use 3.5 and Pathfinder rules together.
Empowering a spell does not increase the number of dice, it's a multiplier on the dice result.
Wrong! It states that it improves "variable numeric effects" A Sum is NOT variable. The variable factor is in fact the number of dice rolled.
Proof: Maximize Spell and Empower Spell specifically do not stack. "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result."
Technically how it works is if you Empower a Fireball at 10th or above level, the damage is 10d6x1.5, not 15d6. If you Maximise and Empower said fireball you deal 60+10d6*0.5 damage (not 60+5d6). The quote you included even specifically reinforces the fact that you half the normally rolled result NOT roll half the number of dice.
Side note: non-caster classes are quite dangerous if the player runs them like they are Batman, but that's about the only way they can keep up with the casters....
Reject the false paradigm. Fighters, for example, aren't meant to "keep up" with "the casters". Fighters, for example, are meant to deal out small amounts of damage consistently over longer periods of time. Casters are meant to follow the reverse: higher amounts of damage over shorter periods of time.
The problem isn't class imbalance. It's almost always play-style. For example, put the 15-minute adventuring day to bed once and for all, and the balance-over-time between melee classes and casters becomes much more apparent.
And, no, monks aren't "broken". The monk in question that started this entire thread is a 25-point buy PC with over-the-limit wealth. There might be someting broken in there, but it isn't the class per se.
Part of the caster imbalance derives from the fact that the Caster has a 15-minute adventuring day if it so suits them. From 9th level the caster can be flying for almost the entire day with the odd teleport and dimension door prepared so that if they feel they've had enough danger for the day, they simply leave. Oh, the wizard is running low on spells? He'll just leave and come back tomorrow! The fighting classes do not have these options.
Casters are better because they have options. They can virtually always pick the terms upon which they fight.
I also disagree with your premise that casters should do more damage over a short period of time. A melee character will almost always do vastly more damage than a caster over any period than a caster, especially if the caster is doing his job right - damage is not the caster's job. The caster's job is to buff/debuff/control the encounter. If the caster does any killing it's likely to be with a save-or-die.
One of the problems with the monk is it is lacking any defined role. It can stand at the front and absorb hits with good AC but it probably lacks the hitpoints of a fighter making it a less efficient tank. It can move around extremely quickly but by moving and attacking it can no longer flurry, its primary combat ability, which makes it an ineffective skirmisher.
It has a lot of abilities that look "quite neat" and make it decent defensively but at the end of the day, really don't actually mesh that well.
It is, however, as some have recently pointed out probably a decent dip for a number of monsters and some PCs.
In my experience, the monk is one of the classes that people initially assume is extremely powerful but looks weaker and weaker the more you play the game.
Everything looks weak at high levels compared to casters. I suspect that one reason Pathfinder Society is capped at 12th level as that may be approaching the limits of reasonable balance between character types.
Then again, the monk is an "advanced" character to play. It may simply take more strategic brainwork to get the most out of it.
The monk is "tricky" in general. Probably the most important thing a monk can have if he wants to be effective is extremely high points buy. Pathfinder has definitely given the monk a helping hand but the concept of a highly mobile combatant reliant on full-attacks is still problematic.
I believe you're right about the Int and Str swap-around, I didnt see that coming. I like your build-ideas - they kinda illuminated me :0)
What about Form of the dragon + transformation - whould that be allowed?
I would recommend maxing INT and DEX, being an Elf and using an Elven Curved Blade to power attack your enemies to death using Weapon Finesse. This is because casting in heavy armour will cost you your swift action and that means no Quickened spells!
The classic build, if 3.5E stuff is allowed is Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1 (CA)/Abjurant Champion 5 (CM)/Eldritch Knight 7. It costs you 2 levels of spellcasting over the 20 levels and nets you BAB +17.
With this build you can either wear a Mithril Chain Shirt, which you can cast in with a 0% arcane spell failure chance or you can just cast Mage Armour. The first option is better, especially if you have a friendly Cleric who can cast Magic Vestment on it for you. At the start of combat, Abjurant Champion lets you Quicken your low level abjurations netting you +9 AC from Shield.
If you're happy to be a bit cheesy you could throw in 3 Incantatrix (PGtF) levels and Persistant Spell to make all your really cool buffs last for 24 hours.
Something else to consider is your prohibited schools. Focused Specialist (CM) is an option for you. I would recommend dropping Evocation and Necromancy if you are a normal specialist - Evocation being the standard first school to go and Necromancy because it tends to be quite heavily DC based. Enchantment, a candidate for the drop, you have to keep because Heroism and Greater Heroism are fantastic and you'll cast them as much as you can. If you go for Focused Specialist and need to drop a third school, i'd pick Illusion (with a very heavy heart because that loss hurts).
Spells to look at from 3.5 could include Elemental Body, Energy Immunity, Greater Blink and Superior Resistance (Spell Compendium), all are fantastic.
Anything you can extend to keep up a all day, you should. You're not going to ever want to be without an Overland Flight or a Greater Magic Weapon, for example. Also, your party is probably going to love you because you'll likely start every encounter by casting Haste!
Finally, i'd recommend strongly against casting Transformation. The BAB it gets you should add almost nothing if you build your character well, the enhancement bonuses are useless by the time you get them and it stops you casting spells. If things go wrong, you are going to want the option to Teleport or Dimension Door the hell out!
Okay, so now that we have more information, what we can clearly see is that in a non-standard game with non-standard WBL and non-standard point buy and non-standard house rules such as hero points, a monk can be dominating against standard enemies.
/Nod
I think someone who is much better at character building at me should build another class with the guidelines he has, to show what can be done with the variables hes been given.
Again, please dont take this as an attack. I LOVE playing monks, despite not being the strongest offensively. They are great at staying alive, and can add some fun things to a party. All thats being done in this thread is try to show you how you are misusing the term broken, essentially.
I will give it a shot although I claim to be no expert character builder.
Neither build is truly optimized for either attack or defense.
** spoiler omitted **...
I decided to see what I could do making a 15 point buy fighter of 15th level with standard wealth by level. As a two-handed fighter it cannot compete with the original monk on AC (though it'd actually be extremely close if it had the extra wealth, my attacks are already rather good so I can afford to spend much of the extra money pumping my AC - with the 50% extra gold reaching AC 42-43 is easy even with a two handed weapon) while pumping out conistantly high damage where 1/4 hits exhausts the enemy. Now add 25 point buy instead and you're basically equal with the monk on AC and superior offensively as well.
Special:
Weapon Training (Blades for +3, the others don't matter)
Armour Training 3
Bravery +4
Gear:
Belt of Physical Perfection +4 (STR/DEX/CON) 64k
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 16k
Cloak of resistance +5 25k
+5 Falchion 50k
+4 Full Plate 18K
+2 Amulet of natural armour 8K
+3 Ring of protection 18K
+2 Defending Spiked Gauntlet 18K
+1 Defending Spiked Gauntlet 8K
+1 Defending Armour Spikes 8K
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5K
My conclusion: Are monks broken? Clearly no more so than Fighters, so are Fighters broken? Basically, no. These characters don't hold a candle to the 16th level casting classes even if you play those casters fairly sub-optimally.
In my experience, the monk is one of the classes that people initially assume is extremely powerful but looks weaker and weaker the more you play the game.
