Because only Chaotic Evil is really evil. Asmodeus? What a poseur! He couldn't exemplify evil his way out of a paper bag.
The Anti-Paladins are not divine champions of a CE (or any other E) deity. They are EXEMPLARS of EVIL.So this is why the other alignments don't get their cookie.
No but there is a reason Demons are CE and devils are not. Devils at lest have a plan and a mission. Demons just want to kill, main and ruin.
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Or any of those other demons that get off on tactics, intrigue, evil-plottiness.
Another vote here for "All alignments should have an exemplar 'holy warrior'" available.
I've also hated the notion that Lawful Good is somehow "Ultimate Good" or that Choatic Evil is "Ultimate Evil". If any alignment must qualify for that, I'd say it's the Neutral ____ alignments. And even then it shouldn't be taken for granted that a NG/NE whatever is automatically more good/evil than their lawful/chaotic counterparts.
still hoping for Holy Barbarians one day
CE anti-paladins is basically an evil deity finding the sickest most messed up little sociopath kid you can find and giving him a case of lighter fluid and matches to play with. They know the sap is gonna burn to death or get locked up, but in the mean time, lots of fires.
CE Anti-paladins must have a short life expectancy, before the adventurers even show.
Yes I misspoke there. However CE unlike LE and NE has no limits. There is nothing it will not do or stoop to. Nothing sacrificed, nothing out of bounds.
NG isn't Ultimate good. Its freaking Neutral doing good when its not to much trouble. NG, N and NE are the most commons alignments. They are the middle ground.
I do agree Anti-paladins would have a short shelf life, but whatever powers them really does not care. It dies , if it was really useful we can use that soul. If need be we can always make another or bring it back.
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Yes I misspoke there. However CE unlike LE and NE has no limits. There is nothing it will not do or stoop to. Nothing sacrificed, nothing out of bounds.
Even here, we run into "Even Evil Has Standards" situations with CE teaming up with LE(and xG!) against NE in the form of demons, devils, and celestials working together against daemons, who go far beyond what most of the LE and CE crowd want.
NG isn't Ultimate good. Its freaking Neutral doing good when its not to much trouble. NG, N and NE are the most commons alignments. They are the middle ground.
What you just described is N that thinks it's good.
NG, genuine NG at its best, is Good without Law or Chaos getting in the way. It's Good without compromising good to adhere to chaos or order.
I am gonna disagree. NG is simply someone who has not picked a side so to speak. They are not the ultimate good but the middle ground "base" good.
To elaborate upon what I said. The reason so many people see LG as "ultimate good" and CE as "ultimate evil" is simple really.
LG, "She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."
Ce, is more or less a sociopath he is the Joker. He does what he wants because he wants to with no regard to how it effects others. He has no feelings for death or pain he caused, unless it makes him laugh.
So we have on one had LG as everything a "Good" person is always told to aim for. On the other had we are shown everything a good person finds horrid and revolting.
You can normally find something redeemable or human about NE or LE. Its hard to find anything like that from someone who is CE.
@Revan - it's not a peeing contest between who is the more evil deity, in fact the deities don't even come into it at all. It is merely a reflection of philospohy and the aims of the Anti-Paladin
You said that Anti-Paladins are Anti-Paladins because they exemplify Evil, and that therefore they can only be Chaotic Evil. Implicitly, that statement means that you only consider demonic, wantonly destructive Chaotic Evil to actually exemplify Evil, because you discount the possibility that someone could exemplify evil by being diabolical, tyrannical, soul-crushingly oppressive and Lawful Evil.
If paladins are champions of, and gain their power from a God (which Faiths of Purity/Balance/Corruption seems to bear out by providing specific, variant paladin codes for various deities), then there is no good reason that any God shouldn't be able to make a paladin.
If Paladins are champions of, and get their power from being exemplars of an alignment, then there's no good reason that only exemplifying Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil should grant such powers. I can perhaps see limiting it to non-neutral alignments--Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, and Chaotic Evil could be said to have a more 'comprehensive' world view.
If Paladins are champions of, and get their powers from service to State and Sovereign...then, really, their alignment should be 'any lawful', Smite should affect anyone working against the interests of their country or sovereign, their code should require obedience and loyalty to their lord...and, for me, at least, it quickly becomes clear that such a thematic description fits an Order of the Lion Cavalier infinitely better than a Paladin.
You said they had to start as paladins in your other post. That is incorrect and now you are assuming they have to be paladins around in order for there to be antipaladins. The way the PRD reads is that it is more likely for an antipaladin to be a paladin first, but nothing I read makes a paladin a neccesity even within the same...And in the main it is true, they begin as Paladins and lose their way. It later goes on to say that there are other ways for them to come about, but the beginning statement makes it clear that this is the normal practice.
There's no inconsistency here.
Dunno about Orcs of Golarion, unfortunately its not a text I've seen anyone ever use in play. It is a campaign world specific text though, which limits its usefulness.
@Revan - it's not a peeing contest between who is the more evil deity, in fact the deities don't even come into it at all. It is merely a reflection of philospohy and the aims of the Anti-Paladin.
You said before and even emphasized that they must be paladins first. That means to me, that there is no other way. The I showed you PRD text that disagreed. You then said a society must have a paladin, so I showed brought society based text from orcs that disagree that a paladin is needed which is what you said earlier.
In short if an antipally must be CE because paladins are LG based on them being paladins first, or a society having paladins, then your premise fails. The core rules don't rule on society. That is what campaign worlds are for, and the only official world of pathfinder is Golarion.
So the paladin must come before the antipaladin is false, and so it your society based statement.
As I said before the books seems to imply that most anti-pallies are pallies first, but it is not a "must" as you claimed, and that kills the LG attachment to your argument.
PS: For those just joining using:
Anti-Paladins can only exist in a society that can produce Paladins.
Even an Anti-Paladin (CE) had to start as a Paladin in order to come into being.
PS 2: He used the term "had to start" instead of "must", but that does not change the meaning of the statement.
A drow city? I could be wrong, he may have came from Nex or something.
Heh I know , just messing with ya. Honestly I am not a fan of the Anti-paladin, it seemed a cheap cop-out to me. I do not think I will ever use them , I know I would never allow them ( No CE pc's) I did like the old Blackguard however. To me it was a good fit, a fallen paladin and all.
Heh I know , just messing with ya. Honestly I am not a fan of the Anti-paladin, it seemed a cheap cop-out to me. I do not think I will ever use them , I know I would never allow them ( No CE pc's) I did like the old Blackguard however. To me it was a good fit, a fallen paladin and all.
You don't like the name or the mechanics. I don't like the name myself nor the CE requirement.
Both really. I Don't mind the CE thing, but its just a backward paladin which to me cheapens them both. Its and "Evil" paladin, except I do not believe in evil paladins. I could get behind a fallen paladin or an evil champion or something but it was very meh.
I had to change the fluff in my games so it is a champion of evil, not just the reverse paladin with a silly name.
I always thought the bad guys should have their own class to push evil causes. I just never thought it had to be an "anti paladin".
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I can agree with that, I feel it would need more then just fluff changes however as its still just an evil paladin. The paladin is its own thing, I feel its opposite should be its own thing as well.
You said that Anti-Paladins are Anti-Paladins because they exemplify Evil, and that therefore they can only be Chaotic Evil. Implicitly, that statement means that you only consider demonic, wantonly destructive Chaotic Evil to actually exemplify Evil, because you discount the possibility that someone could exemplify evil by being diabolical, tyrannical, soul-crushingly oppressive and Lawful Evil.
It wasn't 'just me' saying that, it was the game/class designer who happened to think that way, and they kindly provided a rationale for why as well. All I have done is expand it out a bit further as some of you guys weren't capturing the cause/effect relationships.
You can suggest there's implicit statements all you want, but that would be a bit strange given it has been made completely explicit as to the how and why CE is a particular type of philosophy that sits well with the type of evil the AP is looking for.
If paladins are champions of, and gain their power from a God (which Faiths of Purity/Balance/Corruption seems to bear out by providing specific, variant paladin codes for various deities), then there is no good reason that any God shouldn't be able to make a paladin.
Well you see, I don't put any more stock in 'Faiths of X' than I do Orcs of Golarion. None of these tomes are anything otherthan campaign world specific texts and may as well be my old Greyhawk boxed set from circa 1980's. We can obtain from them some nice ideas, but if we are going to refer to alternate materials I still reckon the 2ndEd Paladins Handbook is the pinnacle of extra materials.
The other point you make is erroneous; the Paladin is in service to a deity - we all agree on this - however it is not the sole source and wellspring of their class, theres a whole lot of stuff we have already covered in this thread that adds to the deal. Sure different deities would add their particular bent on the class, but fundamentally it is still the same class but with a few differing quirks.
Anti-Paladins do not draw their power at all through a Deity.
So I think you have conflated a few issues here.
If Paladins are champions of, and get their power from being exemplars of an alignment, then there's no good reason that only exemplifying Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil should grant such powers. I can perhaps see limiting it to non-neutral alignments--Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, and Chaotic Evil could be said to have a more 'comprehensive' world view.
Sort of covered above.
The car is not 'just the wheels', 'just the motor' or just the 'chasis' - it is a combination of factors. They are an exemplar of Good, in particular a type of good, given structure and order as codified.
If Paladins are champions of, and get their powers from service to State and Sovereign...then, really, their alignment should be 'any lawful', Smite should affect anyone working against the interests of their country or sovereign, their code should require obedience and loyalty to their lord...and, for me, at least, it quickly becomes clear that such a thematic description fits an Order of the Lion Cavalier infinitely better than a Paladin.
As above, it isn't one aspect (I notice you have just divided all the bits down and then argued why it isn't that one)
If you just want to be an alignment champion/deity champion then thats fine, we have the Cleric and Holy Vindicators for that.
You could equally play a Cavalier.
Playing a Paladin is about signing up to a whole package.
You said before and even emphasized that they must be paladins first. That means to me, that there is no other way. The I showed you PRD text that disagreed. You then said a society must have a paladin, so I showed brought society based text from orcs that disagree that a paladin is needed which is what you said earlier.
I'm really not sure why you are trying to argue again the same argument I have already made abundantly clear earlier, but asking the same question twice will probably only net you the same answer.
So let me just copy/pasta the answer for you:
"And in the main it is true, they begin as Paladins and lose their way. It later goes on to say that there are other ways for them to come about, but the beginning statement makes it clear that this is the normal practice."
Its in the PRD you quoted.
Now I understand you are trying to be celever and 'catch me out', but even if you did it still doesn't add any weight to your argument, which at this stage is simply 'but I wanna have deity champions for nine alignments'.
At some point you might actually contribute to the conversation about how this comes into being, and how such a particularly complicated class would be justified - and not through some Orcs of Golarion type guff that suggests a simplistic culture could be producing such highly sophisticated and specialised warriors.
They'd go about as well as the African exploration of space.
More contributions, less pedantry thanks.
You said before and even emphasized that they must be paladins first. That means to me, that there is no other way. The I showed you PRD text that disagreed. You then said a society must have a paladin, so I showed brought society based text from orcs that disagree that a paladin is needed which is what you said earlier.I'm really not sure why you are trying to argue again the same argument I have already made abundantly clear earlier, but asking the same question twice will probably only net you the same answer.
So let me just copy/pasta the answer for you:
"And in the main it is true, they begin as Paladins and lose their way. It later goes on to say that there are other ways for them to come about, but the beginning statement makes it clear that this is the normal practice."
Its in the PRD you quoted.
Now I understand you are trying to be celever and 'catch me out', but even if you did it still doesn't add any weight to your argument, which at this stage is simply 'but I wanna have deity champions for nine alignments'.
At some point you might actually contribute to the conversation about how this comes into being, and how such a particularly complicated class would be justified - and not through some Orcs of Golarion type guff that suggests a simplistic culture could be producing such highly sophisticated and specialised warriors.
They'd go about as well as the African exploration of space.
More contributions, less pedantry thanks.
My point is that your information is false. The PRD disagrees with you, which is world neutral, and the orc book disagrees with you which is world specific.
So if you either to admit your statements were incorrect or provide a supporting source which you have yet to do.
PS:My argument is the direct quote from the people that wrote the game. I don't really need much more than that. The other is a paraphrase from the Orc book. I can get you an exact quote if needed.
edit: I already said how the class can be justified, and I also noted how your examples were incorrect. You not agreeing with my statement of how NE anti-pallies could exist does not make it invalid. It just means you don't agree with me.
edit2:I also never said "'but I wanna have deity champions for nine alignments'" or anything close to it. Lying won't help your case. If I am lying then provide qoutes.
In order to avoid edits I also said that being a pally first was the most likely the most common way. My issue was that you said "had to start as a Paladin", which is not the same as most common.
If you that is what you meant that is what you should have said. Don't get mad if I point out an error. Just admit that you misspoke. We all do it. It won't make you a lesser person.
Since my campaign is alignment free and set in a tribal society, I don't have paladins of any kind. Much easier to leave them out completely.
I don't think paladins need alignments to exist, but a strict code should be enforced. Now it is hard to justify a Chaotic paladin or antipaladin IMHO. Both(pally and anti-pally) have stricts codes, and I don't see someone that is chaotic(which is why the CE anti-pally thing is hard for me to accept) following a strict code for a long time.
My point is that your information is false. The PRD disagrees with you, which is world neutral, and the orc book disagrees with you which is world specific.
Then I'm sorry, but I don't know which PRD you are talking about because even the one you linked says I am correct. The corner case in the third and final paragraph doesn't really change much. Normal practice is normal practice even if there are a rare few corner cases.
I'm really not going to break it down for you a third time into granular detail.
Go read the PRD, then go read what I wrote, then consider it all as a big picture.
I've already spent a fair bit of time explaining the point (as you seem dead keen on being literal and trying to 'trap' the letter rather than the spirit).
Now on one hand you seem to badger away repeatedly on a point as though trying to get a victory, then proceed to call people liars, then in some kind of strange act of reversal say "Don't get mad if I point out an error", well I'm not, I am only disappointed that you can't seemingly follow a conversation, nor comprehend complete sentences, nor grasp context.
On the other hand I quite liked
I don't think paladins need alignments to exist, but a strict code should be enforced. Now it is hard to justify a Chaotic paladin or antipaladin IMHO. Both(pally and anti-pally) have stricts codes, and I don't see someone that is chaotic(which is why the CE anti-pally thing is hard for me to accept) following a strict code for a long time.
It shows that it does at least register that there are some deeper arguments you need to consider, and shows gaps in your understanding of the class - like the 'strict Anti-Paladin code'.
Where's that written in your PRD?
Since my campaign is alignment free and set in a tribal society, I don't have paladins of any kind. Much easier to leave them out completely.
True.
In a tribal society, how would they have evolved such a 'modern' class?
Good thinking :)
I don't think paladins need alignments to exist, but a strict code should be enforced. Now it is hard to justify a Chaotic paladin or antipaladin IMHO. Both(pally and anti-pally) have stricts codes, and I don't see someone that is chaotic(which is why the CE anti-pally thing is hard for me to accept) following a strict code for a long time.
How do you replace alignment to determine how lots of paladin powers work?
Aura of Good needs alignment, and detect evil, smite evil, many of the paladins spells, Aura of Justice, Aura of Faith, Aura of Righteousness, and Holy Champion.You could make it to just treat all demons and undead as if they were evil, but that would still greatly limit the usefullnes of many paladin class features.
And if I follow all this 'brilliant logic', why can't I have a LG Anti-Paladin?
I don't think paladins need alignments to exist, but a strict code should be enforced. Now it is hard to justify a Chaotic paladin or antipaladin IMHO. Both(pally and anti-pally) have stricts codes, and I don't see someone that is chaotic(which is why the CE anti-pally thing is hard for me to accept) following a strict code for a long time.
I'll agree with most of that. As I have said before you can rip out Al's and it does not change the paladin a single bit. However, the Anti-paladins really does not have a "code" its more or less a paint by numbers bullet points of the CE alignment. Its more or less a single " Be as evil and foul as you damned well want. Bring ruin and death and amuse yourself with suffering" guideline then hardest rules.
And anti-paladin who wasn't as vile as he could be brakes his "Code" even if its not really a code. He simply looses his mojo as he is not being as evil and vile as he could.
Since my campaign is alignment free and set in a tribal society, I don't have paladins of any kind. Much easier to leave them out completely.True.
In a tribal society, how would they have evolved such a 'modern' class?
Good thinking :)
Eh, My homebrew is Early iron age mostly nomadic or small outlaying "Villages" and they have paladins.They are often enough solitary more then the rare Order. Often championing the cause of one of the Gods and watching over remote villages from Savages and the demon tainted tribes.
A paladin or knight is not "Modern" those are just trapping you think of them in. My setting does not have plate armor, large two handed swords, printing presses or even horses. Yet Paladins fit in very well riding axe breaks, armed with spear and Falcuta, Hide shields and Lamellar armor with leather skirts.
It may not be your idea image of a paladin but the class works very well within the setting.
Eh, My homebrew is Early iron age mostly nomadic or small outlaying "Villages" and they have paladins.They are often enough solitary more then the rare Order. Often championing the cause of one of the Gods and watching over remote villages from Savages and the demon tainted tribes.
A paladin or knight is not "Modern" those are just trapping you think of them in. My setting does not have plate armor, large two handed swords, printing presses or even horses. Yet Paladins fit in very well riding axe breaks, armed with spear and Falcuta, Hide shields and Lamellar armor with leather skirts.
It may not be your idea image of a paladin but the class works very well within the setting.
Well sure there's the trappings of a particular time period, but the class is skilled in heavy armours and later period weapons, Paldins are literate, and have a codified set of laws they work with.
I suppose you could homebrew that down pretty easily if you chose to, the same way you could home brew most things.
Personally what you describe sounds more (to me anyway) like a Ranger with a religious bent, and FE Humans and outsiders.
Whatever works for you though.
No rangers are a different thing all together. In My homebrew laws are more the realm of Monks. The paladin class works as written, I changed nothing at all, other then what weapons and armor the setting has. How does this hurt the paladin any more then say the fighter?
The class like most melee classes have all armor type and martial weapons. I am not sure what changing any of that has to do with it no longer being a paladin.I am not sure how you read what is nothing more then Gear changes and came to the conclusion it wasn't a paladin. I think you are have idea that a Paladin can only exist in settings and area's of a setting that have a very heavy European feel.
A paladin is not about what gear he has or what civilization he is born unto any more then a ranger, a rouge of a cleric class is limited by such.
They can be born in vast cities, in the far reaches of the frozen north, upon the sea or any other place. It simply has no bearing on if they are a paladin or not.
I guess we are just going to have to disagree.
The paladin is a lot more than just his weapons and armour, but yes those trappings are certainly part of the class itself.
Fighters by their nature are fairly flexible, however Paladins are geared up (in many meanings) around a particular 'technology level'. Codified laws etc for example, written text, clerical heirarchy, and some sort of State organisation just not found in tribal level societies.
So as I say, it looked a lot more like Ranger/Druid traditions you were describing, the Paladin is just not a class I'd expect to see given that picture.
Of course you could call it a Paladin too! But can I also have a Samurai in the same setting? If not why not?
I guess we will disagree as gear does not make a paladin and you seem to think it does. A tribe culture can indeed have "codeifed laws" a clerical hierarchy and yes even a state religion as tribes rarely have more then one.
I do not feel nor does anything in the class however have to have any of those things you seem to think it says it must have. Thy do not need those things, but may be more common with them.
And what did I say that makes it seem more ranger? The championing Gods or the protecting the villages from the demon worshipers and savage cannibals that seek to destroy or corrupt them? Yeah nothing that says paladin there at all. Again it seems to me you are stuck not on what it does but on what gear they use.
I guess if I played a paladin in Golarion you think I have to use heavy armor and take a mount, I couldn't be light armored and use a scimitar and go more agile fighter then tank. The class simply does not require me to be mounted, use a heavy lance , long sword and full plate.
It's not just the 'gear', its the level of advancement of the society that can produce said gear that the Paladin springs from.
A Paladin is a fairly advanced (relative terms) class that is based on certain concepts.
Tribal cultures really didn't have structures and codified laws and the developed religion we see in the periods the Paladins are based in. Until the Romans came along there wasn't a lot going on in most tribal societies.
What makes it seem more Ranger? Well the weapons are all very Ranger, the mounts are very Ranger, the armour is pretty much fine for a Ranger - there was mention of two very specific types of enemy (FE Human and Outsider) and a rural agrarian village setting. Thats 100% pure Ranger right there, right on down to the religious part (Green Faith would work fine here).
So yeah, ranger or fighter would suit that all down to the ground, and would probably be less far fetched than a parade of Mammoth Cavaliers.
Can I take a Samurai in this homebrew world? What about a Ninja? And why can't I have a Gunslinger?
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I really don't see the problem with a champion of the tribe, responsible for leading them and enforcing the traditions of the ancestors, empowered by the spirits of said ancestors, being a Paladin. It does not require gods, or heavy metal armor, or even a mount, just a warrior devoted to Law and Good.
Mike McArtor's 'Not Your Father's Do-Gooder' Class Acts article in Dragon #323 is a good example.
And I call him...
'The Fighter'
or...
'The Ranger'.
Why can't he be a Samurai though?
I disagree, again you are assuming at lest late middle ages gear is required for the paladin to exist. Take that thought out. Some of those cultures did indeed have coded laws, some very complex. What keeps them from having laws or codes? All those things existed long before the tech of Rome, which is far below the tech you seem to think a paladin must have.
I am still simply not seeing why you can not have these things outside of one small type of civilization.
As to them being ranger like, well all the weapons are the same. You have the chorice of Short bows, Long and short spears, kukries and falcuta's for the most part. How does that force you into one class? That is simply the weapons they have to pick from. A ranger could do all that, or a monk ( who does not use the book weapons), a fighter, a paladin or just about anything else.
A ranger is less equipped to deal with spellcasters, demons and the like then a paladin however, but they would work in a pinch. But again gear does not make your class.
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On what classes on the homebrew. No ninja its an archetype not a class :) The setting handles mystic power of any type very strict. So no ki powers for the most part. I would happily re fluff it as no magic on the ones I could however and allow your rogue to take them. Or if your really set upon the mystic rogue then we could come up with a tradition for your order and a place it came from.
The caviler is allowed the same is just an archetype and one that fits, normal setting weapons only however you can't have what does not exist. So that also means the gunslinger is out as the weapon and the class is a no go, I would allow all classes to take a grit feat however if ya wanted the mechanic that bad. I have not looked over the class all that well but if it could work with a bow then it might be allowed.
I really don't see the problem with a champion of the tribe, responsible for leading them and enforcing the traditions of the ancestors, empowered by the spirits of said ancestors, being a Paladin. It does not require gods, or heavy metal armor, or even a mount, just a warrior devoted to Law and Good.
Mike McArtor's 'Not Your Father's Do-Gooder' Class Acts article in Dragon #323 is a good example.
That article was pure gold.
@ shifty, you could call him that but that is not what he is. He can do things a fighter can not, like lay on hands, and call upon his granted power to smite evil and the demonic. He may look and dress much like the fighter , but that does not make him a fighter.
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And I call him...
'The Fighter'
or...
'The Ranger'.
Why can't he be a Samurai though?
What?
Edit: Are you asking why he can't have the Samurai class? I didn't say he couldn't. He could be a Fighter, Ranger, or a Samurai.
Or he could also be a Paladin. It only matters what the player wants him to be.
I disagree, again you are assuming at lest late middle ages gear is required for the paladin to exist.
No I am saying that the Paladin was given life from the combination of societal development factors, and they included things such as scientific advancement and cultural/civilisation development. Their arms and equipment were born also from such advances, but Paladins were sprung from a particular level of cultural refinement. They are the expected trappings (gear) because in order to have a Paladin, it is assumed society has advanced to that level.
You say Paladin, I say Ranger :)
I reckon you sidestepped on the Ninja, but you have gone totally Ninja on my request for a Samurai :p
A samurai doesn't all have to be about Katanas... maybe he wears loincloths and has a sharp stick?
What?
See thats the same response I have when people ask for 9 alignments of Paladins, or Paladins running around in the bronze age :)
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No, see, I didn't understand your meaning. See my edit above.
Paladins have existed since the first man stepped forth to fight evil.
A samurai doesn't all have to be about Katanas... maybe he wears loincloths and has a sharp stick?
Absolutely!
Edit: Wait, little 's' or big 'S'? Like, class, or historical figure?
Ahhhh see now I get why we are on a different wavelength...
Little 'p' or big 'P' - because to me its all big P (or Big S in this case).
If I wasn't a big S then I'm basically a Fighter with some cool wu-xia.
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No I am saying that the Paladin was given life from the combination of societal development factors, and they included things such as scientific advancement and cultural/civilisation development. Their arms and equipment were born also from such advances, but Paladins were sprung from a particular level of cultural refinement. They are the expected trappings (gear) because in order to have a Paladin, it is assumed society has advanced to that level.
I disagree, again you are assuming at lest late middle ages gear is required for the paladin to exist.
Um...no. No it's not. Like, not at all. The only trapping necessary to be a Paladin is to be pure of heart, to fight for the right without question or pause, to be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause. Whether a paladin wears plate armor and wields a longsword from astride a mighty spear, or whether he stands as champion of his tribe against demonic predations with naught but a loincloth, a bone spear, and the power of his faith; whether he is part of a great knightly order, or a lone wandering do-gooder; whether he pledges himself to a noble liege, or raises the flag of freedom high...if he dreams that impossible dream, he can be and is a paladin.
No I am saying that the Paladin was given life from the combination of societal development factors, and they included things such as scientific advancement and cultural/civilisation development. Their arms and equipment were born also from such advances, but Paladins were sprung from a particular level of cultural refinement. They are the expected trappings (gear) because in order to have a Paladin, it is assumed society has advanced to that level.
I disagree. Paladins have been around whatever setting as long as the races have fought evil. It has nothing to do with scientific advancement and everything to do with the civilization.
Does it have laws?Does it have good?
Does it have some type of faith?
Is there evil to fight?
If all four of those are yes, then you have all you ever need for paladins.
I reckon you sidestepped on the Ninja, but you have gone totally Ninja on my request for a Samurai :pA samurai doesn't all have to be about Katanas... maybe he wears loincloths and has a sharp stick?
No idea what you are talking about. I don't allow the ninja as written in any game. Ever. The samurai is a good enough fit however and as long as the player understood he was using the same gear and tech as everyone else in the Known world, its fine. Its just an mounted archer cavalier archtype when ya get down to it.
I still have no clue what any of that has to do with paladins however.
Just a quick write up I started by merging paladin and antipaladin into one base class. Would still need to fill in the details and do spell lists and such but you get the idea from what I have so far...
:)
Champions are paragons of powerful ideals.
Alignment: Non-neutral.
Hit Dice: d10
The champion's class skills are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2+Int modifier.
All of the following are class features of the champion.
Base Attack Bonus: High
High Saves: Fortitude and Will
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Champions are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Special Abilities:
1st: Aura, detect alignment, smite 1/day
2nd: Infuse energy, resilience
3rd: Aura, disease immunity, infusion bonus
4th: Channel energy, smite 2/day
5th: Favor
6th: Infusion bonus
7th: Smite 3/day
8th: Aura
9th: Infusion bonus
10th: Smite 4/day
11th: Aura
12th: Infusion bonus
13th: Smite 5/day
14th: Aura
15th: Infusion bonus
16th: Smite 6/day
17th: Aura
18th: Infusion bonus
19th: Smite 7/dy
20th: Ultimate champion
Smite: As written against opposing alignments.
Infuse Energy: Infuse positive or negative energy based on alignment. As per Lay on Hands/Touch of Corruption
Resilience: As per Divine Health.
Infusion Bonus: As per Mercy/Cruelty.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and looses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly commits chaotic or evil acts. Additionally a paladin's code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for chaotic or evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Skills: A paladin adds Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), and Knowledge (nobility) (Int) to his list of class skills.
Auras: A paladin gains the following abilities as he increases in level. These abilities functions only while the paladin is conscious, not unconscious or dead.
Aura of Alignment (Ex): The power of a paladin's auras of good and law (see the detect good and detect law spells) are equal to his paladin level.
Aura of Courage (Su): At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on savings throws against fear effects.
Aura of Resolve (Su): At 8th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects.
Aura of Justice (Su): At 11th level, a paladin can expend two uses of his smite ability to grant the ability to smite to all allies within 10 feet, using his bonuses. Allies must use this smite ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Evil or chaotic beings gain no benefit from this ability.
Aura of Faith (Su): At 14th level, a paladin's weapons are treated as good and law aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feet of him is treated as good and lawful for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Aura of Righteousness (Su): At 17th level, a paladin gains DR 5/chaos and evil, as well as immunity to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects.
Code of Conduct: A liberator must be of chaotic good alignment and looses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly commits evil or lawful acts. blah blah blah
Skills: A liberator adds Disguise (Cha), Heal (Wis), and Stealth (Dex) to his list of class skills.
Auras: A liberator gains the following abilities as he increases in level. These abilities functions only while the liberator is conscious, not unconscious or dead.
Aura of Alignment (Ex): The power of a liberator's auras of chaos and good (see the detect chaos and detect good spells) are equal to his paladin level.
Aura of Boldness (Su): At 3rd level, a liberator is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on savings throws against fear effects.
Aura of Inspiration: At 8th level, allies within 10 feet of an liberator gain a +2 bonus on all saving throws. This bonus does not stack with bonuses from other auras.
Aura of ???: At 11th level, a liberator can expend two uses of his smite ability to grant the ability to smite to all allies within 10 feet, using his bonuses. Allies must use this smite ability by the start of the liberator's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Evil or lawful beings gain no benefit from this ability.
Aura of ???: At 14th level, a liberator's weapons are treated as chaotic and good aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feet of him is treated as chaotic and good for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Aura of ??? (Su): At 17th level, a liberator gains DR 5/evil and law, as well as immunity to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects.
Code of Conduct: A black guard must be of lawful evil alignment and looses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly commits chaotic or good acts. Blah blah blah
Skills: A black guard adds Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), and Knowledge (nobility) (Int) to his list of class skills.
Auras: A black guard gains the following abilities as he increases in level. These abilities functions only while the black guard is conscious, not unconscious or dead.
Aura of Alignment (Ex): The power of a black guard's auras of evil and law (see the detect evil and detect law spells) are equal to his paladin level.
Aura of Fear: At 3rd level, a black guard radiates a palpably daunting aura that causes all enemies within 10 feet to take a -4 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. Creatures that are normally immune to fear lose that immunity while within 10 feet of an antipaladin with this ability
Aura of Temptation (Su): At 8th level, a black guard is immune to charm spells and spell like abilities. All enemies within 10 feet of him take a -4 penalty on saving throws against charm effects.
Aura of ??? (Su): At 11th level, a black guard can expend two uses of his smite ability to grant the ability to smite to all allies within 10 feet, using his bonuses. Allies must use this smite ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Chaotic or good beings gain no benefit from this ability.
Aura of ??? (Su): At 14th level, a black guard's weapons are treated as evil and law aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feet of him is treated as evil and lawful for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Aura of ???: At 17th level, a black guard gains DR 5/chaos and good. Each enemy within 10 feet of him takes a -4 penalty on saving throws against compulsion effects.
Code of Conduct: An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and looses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly commits good or lawful acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else may qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin's code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage when ever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don't interfere with his goals.
Skills: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha) and Stealth (Dex).
Auras: An antipaladin gains the following abilities as he increases in level. These abilities functions only while the antipaladin is conscious, not unconscious or dead.
Aura of Alignment (Ex): The power of a antipaladin's auras of chaos and evil (see the detect chaos and detect evil spells) are equal to his paladin level.
Aura of Dread: At 3rd level, an antipaladin radiates a palpably daunting aura that causes all enemies within 10 feet to take a -4 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. Creatures that are normally immune to fear lose that immunity while within 10 feet of an antipaladin with this ability
Aura of Despair: At 8th level, enemies within 10 feet of an antipaladin take a -2 penalty on all saving throws. This penalty does not stack with the penalties from other auras.
Aura of Vengeance: At 11th level, an antipaladin can expend two uses of his smite ability to grant the ability to smite to all allies within 10 feet, using his bonuses. Allies must use this smite ability by the start of the antipaladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Good or lawful beings gain no benefit from this ability.
Aura of Sin: At 14th level, an antipaladin's weapons are treated as chaotic and evil aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feet of him is treated as chaotic and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Aura of Depravity: At 17th level, an antipaladin gains DR 5/good and law. Each enemy within 10 feet of him takes a -4 penalty on saving throws against compulsion effects.
Ugh, see there is the issue.at best ya got a paladin, a cheap knock off and two PRC's trying really hard and failing to be cheap knock offs.