Anti-Paladin Alignment in your game


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Are you using the Anti-Paladin in your game, or letting players play it?
If so, are you keep the alignment RAW or letting players play NE and LE as well?


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Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Are you using the Anti-Paladin in your game, or letting players play it?

If so, are you keep the alignment RAW or letting players play NE and LE as well?

I would let any evil alignment be an anti-paladin. Same as I would alowe any good alignment for a paladin. What I found funny when reading through the anti-paladin was that they have a code of conduct but are CE. The big arguement I heard about why paladins are lawful was because of their code of conduct but it seems anti-paladins can have a code and still be chaotic.

Dark Archive

Dragorine wrote:
Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Are you using the Anti-Paladin in your game, or letting players play it?

If so, are you keep the alignment RAW or letting players play NE and LE as well?
I would let any evil alignment be an anti-paladin. Same as I would alowe any good alignment for a paladin. What I found funny when reading through the anti-paladin was that they have a code of conduct but are CE. The big arguement I heard about why paladins are lawful was because of their code of conduct but it seems anti-paladins can have a code and still be chaotic.

I'm thinking of allowing Paladins to be any good alignment as well in my campaigns. How is that working out for you?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

RAW. Paladin = LG, Antipaladin = CE. There's a Holy Vindicator PrC for all the other Divine Stabbing needs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evil Genius Prime wrote:


I'm thinking of allowing Paladins to be any good alignment as well in my campaigns. How is that working out for you?

That's the default rule for the Warcraft D20 rules.

Liberty's Edge

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In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)


Gorbacz wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)

Except that the antipaladin has been gone for 30 years and the paladin has been with us all the time.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
stringburka wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)
Except that the antipaladin has been gone for 30 years and the paladin has been with us all the time.

That's what the people said when Half-Orcs and Assassins went core 10 years ago :) Yet, there are no non-evil Assassins.


Gorbacz wrote:
stringburka wrote:


Except that the antipaladin has been gone for 30 years and the paladin has been with us all the time.
That's what the people said when Half-Orcs and Assassins went core 10 years ago :) Yet, there are no non-evil Assassins.

Which you may or may not agree with, and that I've seen some people house rule away.

Liberty's Edge

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Gorbacz wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)

Oh that's cool. I have no problem that Paizo stuck with Chaotic Evil for their ant paladin. I just personally never liked the idea, even back then.

To me, the perfect foil to the paladin in this kind of context is a Lawful Evil version of the paladin. He too has a strict code like the paladin but it is an evil, corrupted form of the code. He too has a form of honor, but it is a cold and unmerciful form of honor. Basically, the anti paladin is what I always think of as a Dark Paladin. Kind of like a Black Knight kind of thing ... both are lawful adherents to a strict code, but one represents good and the forces of Light, the other represents evil and the forces of Darkness.

To me, THAT'S an anti paladin.

Just my opinion though :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:


Oh that's cool. I have no problem that Paizo stuck with Chaotic Evil for their ant paladin. I just personally never liked the idea, even back then.

To me, the perfect foil to the paladin in this kind of context is a Lawful Evil version of the paladin. He too has a strict code like the paladin but it is an evil, corrupted form of the code. He too has a form of honor, but it is a cold and unmerciful form of honor. Basically, the anti paladin is what I always think of as a Dark Paladin. Kind of like a Black Knight kind of thing ... both are lawful adherents to a strict code, but one represents good and the forces of Light, the other represents evil and the forces of Darkness.

To me, THAT'S an anti paladin.

Just my opinion though :)

It's a common human trait to seek complete symmetry in opposition. So if the Pally is LG, most assume that the Anti must be the direct opposite which would be chaotic evil.


Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

I understand the tradition, but either the code of conduct or the alignment setting has to go. The two arguments of 'it's tradition' or 'it's opposites of the regular paladin' won't fly with my players. It's like unlawful monks... I guess it really breaks down to how important alignment is. Either way, they can't be pansy evil if they wanna go bad. :D

The Exchange

Marc Radle wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)

Oh that's cool. I have no problem that Paizo stuck with Chaotic Evil for their ant paladin. I just personally never liked the idea, even back then.

To me, the perfect foil to the paladin in this kind of context is a Lawful Evil version of the paladin. He too has a strict code like the paladin but it is an evil, corrupted form of the code. He too has a form of honor, but it is a cold and unmerciful form of honor. Basically, the anti paladin is what I always think of as a Dark Paladin. Kind of like a Black Knight kind of thing ... both are lawful adherents to a strict code, but one represents good and the forces of Light, the other represents evil and the forces of Darkness.

To me, THAT'S an anti paladin.

Just my opinion though :)

I agree. Lawful makes much more sense than Chaotic for an evil paladin.


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I think you can make a good case for either chaotic or lawful evil if you're going to houserule it (which is the only place the anti-paladin lived during the many years of its exile).

The CE anti-paladin focuses more on the anti- aspect. It basically is the polar opposite of the paladin, devoted to chaos and evil. Lies like a philandering husband. Goes out of his way to kick helpless puppies. Never just kills a man when he can torture and then kill him. Prone to slaughtering people on a whim. Could care less about any of the prevailing social mores or laws. Believes himself above all that and free to do whatever he damn well pleases whenever he damn well wants to. Doesn't work and play well with others. All allies will be only temporary allies, to be abandoned (or killed) as soon as they are no longer useful. Could care less how others view him, so long as they fear and obey him.

The LE anti-paladin focuses more on the paladin aspect. He follows a code just like the paladin, but it is a vastly different code. He is coldly calculating and remorseless because he is devoted to a cause. He serves a corrupt and evil authority, but firmly believes that tyranny and absolute obedience to that authority are necessary. Will rarely lie to achieve his aims, and will strictly enforce all laws, the more draconic the better. Tends to view common citizens and others as commodities, protected because they are useful. Doesn't go out of his way to kick puppies, but doesn't hesitate to do it or feel any remorse if they get in his way. Can be quite a charismatic leader, and recognizes the value of teamwork and of self-sacrifice. Will take one for the team if it advances his cause, but will push someone else into that role without hesitation if it makes sense to do so. May view himself as noble and justified in everything he does, and expects to be given respect and honor by others.


Gorbacz wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)
Except that the antipaladin has been gone for 30 years and the paladin has been with us all the time.
That's what the people said when Half-Orcs and Assassins went core 10 years ago :) Yet, there are no non-evil Assassins.

In 3.5 there was.

The Avenger was a WotC Good Assassin. There was another one in BoED called Slayer of Domiel (can't remember spelling).

Heck, you could just be LG Marrulurk (they get Death attack/Sneak attack as a racial ability).

Dark Archive

My game
Pallys - only LG
Anti-paladin replaces the Blackguard and is NPC only; primarily CE (destroyer), but I will have NE (warmonger) and LE (authoritarian) versions. Variants will be very minor in their ability changes.

The LE was defined by Bachman above, so I won't repeat it here -good work.

NE version will either be wholly mercenary or just a warmonger - war and terror for the sake of power and culling the weak. May serve a higher authority like the LE Anti-Paladin, but in the end everyone needs to die - possibly including that authority.

War purges, screams of terror and pain are like music to his ears.
And while the CE AP may just be a ruthless bastard and cruel, and the LE AP may being doing it to oppress this guy or that or just likes putting his boot on someones neck as they crawl around the NE AP follows the routine doing it all as sort of a mockery. With the life view that everything is a farce and just another tool for him to do what he does best.

So when the attack orders are given out before the big battle, the NE AP is probably going to follow those orders (mostly) and probably gonna add something extra also for himself. He's already made up his mind on how things "really" are going to be.

The NE AP is the guy you temporarily entrust with the prisoner (who will likely be killed at a latter time) and when you return the prisoner is already dead.
Sort of like Mr. Blond, he does his job and he isn't so CE that he can't work with a group and his actions are not 100% self-serving, but he really can't be trusted to toe the line. Has some self-control but in the end he must serve his baser needs, and those needs are causing pain, grief and general terror.

Dark Archive

Great Discussions Everyone!

I'm posting another thread with another discussion like this, but with a different focus. Take a look when you get the chance.

Anti-Paladins in your game (Part Deux)


I don't like Paladins, Mr. White.

Dark Archive

I_Use_Ref_Discretion wrote:
I don't like Paladins, Mr. White.

LOL! Love it!

Dark Archive

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Great Discussions Everyone!

Now let me pose this question. Do you think allowing Anti-Paladins of the other two Evil Alignments NEED (not allow at your discretion, but actually NEED) changes to its abilities? I say no, that the current abilities and class features NEED no changes.

Also, pose the same question to the Paladin Class if the other two Good Alignments are allowed.

Lets discuss!

On the issue of Anti-Paladins I would do very minor tweaks on their abilities - mostly in spell list and code of conduct. As it stands you could run a NE or LE and just modify the code of conduct.

Can't comment on the good alignment pally variants, don't really see the need for them really with all the various class options out there. 3.0 through to PF creatures and NPCs suck hard with the PCs being as overpowered as it is, don't need a paragon of NG and CG in addition to the Paladin - IMO of course.

So to me anything extra in the arsenal of evil, enemies, bad guys, monsters, etc helps. When it comes to MOAR PC powers and classes on par with the Pally I think I feel ok that they just don't currently exist.
That is an argument for another thread so I'll leave it at that.

Contributor

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I like my paladins lawful good and I like my anti-paladins chaotic evil, and the same as the paladins better follow a code of chivalry, the antipaladins have to follow a code of unchivalrous behavior, even small stuff like consistently calling the Lawful Evil queen of Cheliax "Toots" or "Honey" or various crude terms which would violate the "no profanity or vulgar speech" clause of the message boards.

Yes, it's a curiously lawful sort of chaotic, but real lawful evil values power, might, and reason. Some clown with a fetish for profaning all that's good and chivalrous, up to and including taking an oath of puppy stomping and consistently looking for any holy water fonts to pee in?

Let the demons have him. As a side note, see if the alchemists have a compound to add to baptismal fonts which explodes on contact with urine....

(Note from alchemist: O Dread Emperor, most unholy. Here is the compound you desire, a powerful explosive which will detonate when mixed with holy water and urine. I trust your assassins will be able to ensure that child to be assassinated will have a soggy diaper....)

Dark Archive

So real Lawful evil values power, might, and reason but a CE bad guy is just a clown?

Dark Archive

Auxmaulous wrote:
Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Great Discussions Everyone!

Now let me pose this question. Do you think allowing Anti-Paladins of the other two Evil Alignments NEED (not allow at your discretion, but actually NEED) changes to its abilities? I say no, that the current abilities and class features NEED no changes.

Also, pose the same question to the Paladin Class if the other two Good Alignments are allowed.

Lets discuss!

On the issue of Anti-Paladins I would do very minor tweaks on their abilities - mostly in spell list and code of conduct. As it stands you could run a NE or LE and just modify the code of conduct.

Can't comment on the good alignment pally variants, don't really see the need for them really with all the various class options out there. 3.0 through to PF creatures and NPCs suck hard with the PCs being as overpowered as it is, don't need a paragon of NG and CG in addition to the Paladin - IMO of course.

So to me anything extra in the arsenal of evil, enemies, bad guys, monsters, etc helps. When it comes to MOAR PC powers and classes on par with the Pally I think I feel ok that they just don't currently exist.
That is an argument for another thread so I'll leave it at that.

I like this. I'm going to use Anti-Paladins of all alignments as well. And more than likely hold the Paladin to still be LG only.

Contributor

Auxmaulous wrote:
So real Lawful evil values power, might, and reason but a CE bad guy is just a clown?

Yes, but a clowns in a skull codpiece instead of a clown with a fright wig and rubber nose.

I'm not certain what it is with the skull codpiece. Likely part of the antipaladin code of unchivalry but even the current antipaladin in the APG is wearing one.


Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Are you using the Anti-Paladin in your game, or letting players play it?

If so, are you keep the alignment RAW or letting players play NE and LE as well?

I will at the least allow a LE pally if not make it mandatory. Chaotic evil would not be chaotic if it could stick to a ruleset for a long period of time.

I would allow a player to play one in an evil campaign, and I plan to use one in Kingmaker to replace a certain NPC that I don't care for.

Dark Archive

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Yes, but a clowns in a skull codpiece instead of a clown with a fright wig and rubber nose.

I'm not certain what it is with the skull codpiece. Likely part of the antipaladin code of unchivalry but even the current antipaladin in the APG is wearing one.

So you let artist rendition dictate the role of the class or how something works?

If that was the case I probably would never have picked up 3.0 (and thus pathfinder) after 2nd ed ended.

Your CE=Bizarro behavior you attribute to the anti-paladin is solely your own creation. I couldn't find anything in the code listed in the apg that would make the Antipaladin as 1-dimensional and moronic as you make him out to be. Maybe while he's in the royal court and acting like an ass, you can also have him walk and talk backwards - since that would make about as much sense.

Also there isn't a code of "unchivalry" tied to the class - if you want to read things into the class because it isn't sophisticated enough for your tastes on what is EEEEVIL that's fine.
Just don't present false information that people may read as being true to the class.

Contributor

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Auxmaulous wrote:


So you let artist rendition dictate the role of the class or how something works?
If that was the case I probably would never have picked up 3.0 (and thus pathfinder) after 2nd ed ended.

Your CE=Bizarro behavior you attribute to the anti-paladin is solely your own creation. I couldn't find anything in the code listed in the apg that would make the Antipaladin as 1-dimensional and moronic as you make him out to be. Maybe while he's in the royal court and acting like an ass, you can also have him walk and talk backwards - since that would make about as much sense.

Also there isn't a code of "unchivalry" tied to the class - if you want to read things into the class because it isn't sophisticated enough for your tastes on what is EEEEVIL that's fine.
Just don't present false information that people may read as being true to the class.

The title of the thread is "Anti-Paladin Alignment in your game."

Everything here is opinion. Opinion is rather by definition not false information because all it is is opinion.

My opinions are based on almost thirty years of watching people play paladins and anti-paladins and reading all the depictions of them, of which this is simply the latest of many. And yes, the artist did the latest of many skull codpieces.

The write-up in the APG? It specifies a code of conduct where the anti-paladin must commit evil and punish good. It doesn't define what evil and good are, just says that this is what the code is.

Let's say the anti-paladin is riding through the wilderness and finds a roadside shrine to Iomedae, a good goddess. One expects he's supposed to desecrate it. How? There's no convenient virgin to sacrifice, and therefore no source of blood with which to profane it, other than his own, so why not one of the other four humours? Draw a goatee and mustache on the icon, pee on it and ride on?

The trouble is, a whole lot of good and evil is just symbolic stuff. Exactly how much evil does petty vandalism accomplish? How much good for that matter? If a paladin rides by a shrine of an evil god and tags it with some holy symbol, is that any different?

Dark Archive

Oh, so they are only utterly moronic in your game - got it.

Quote:
Code of Conduct: An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.

So no, one doesn't expect him to desecrate your sample shrine, unless you think in incredibly simple terms this would be a waste of time and resources.

If he has the time he lays in wait to kill (or worse) any all who come to worship there. Then he destroys it.
He wouldn't waste (lol) his time to take a fiver and drop a deuce in what would amount to 5 minutes of cleaning followed up by a 10 minute prayer to re-consecrate the place. That's and incredibly juvenile/simplistic understanding of the class and acts of eeeevil in general.

You created the unchivalry & vandalism nonsense, your interpretations - your opinion. You stated that already and if that's how you want to run them in your game, great. But don't frame it like it's how the class is presented in the APG.
The skull cod piece is bad, I'll give you that, but it isn't enough to condemn the class to cliched doom.

It's like you're presenting your own ideas and interpretation on the class, evil acts, etc and commenting on how bad it is when that's not the case with anything described in the class write-up.
The "petty vandalism and anti-chivalry is eeeevil!" are your inventions, don't play it up like that's all the class is good for.

As they say, YMMV - in your case it doesn't even get you around the block.

Liberty's Edge

I don't ever intend to allow any of my players to play as an anti-paladin. However, in my game world anti-paladins will be a Lawful Evil, organized force of tyranny and oppression.

They will make for great NPC villains, but are off-limits for my players.

Liberty's Edge

I wouldn't allow a PC anti-paladin, and I don't use alignment. If I *did* use alignment, I would allow anti-paladins to be LE or CE--basically that they have to adopt an extreme ethical alignment to be zealous crusaders of darkness. Those NE types just don't have any dedication. XD

Jeremy Puckett


I would not allow a CE player and to me yes it is CE only as it is the Anti-paladin. He is the embodiment of CE his "code" is almost word for word the CE alignment write up, so more or less his code is to be CE

Contributor

Auxmaulous wrote:
It's like you're presenting your own ideas and interpretation on the class, evil acts, etc and commenting on how bad it is when that's not the case with anything described in the class write-up.

The class write-up is incredibly vague. It could be used to stat up anything from Venger from the old Saturday morning cartoons to Hannibal Lecter.

So you're saying rather than desecrating the shrine via vandalism--the equivalent of burning crosses on lawns or painting a swastika on a synagogue--in your game world, actual evil has to be murder or "something worse" which I'm assuming means rape and/or torture and/or mutilation. That's fine too.

I'm not saying that the anti-paladin couldn't be a subtle villain, going about with a grand nefarious plan to doom the world and not bothering to kick puppies or even sacrifice the odd virgin unless this was something specifically on his to-do list to bring about doomsday. In the right sort of world, this is entirely possible.

That said, in my worlds, I tend to like paladins to have an actual code of chivalry and be answerable to a church hierarchy and I'd like the same to be true for anti-paladins.


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hida_jiremi wrote:
Those NE types just don't have any dedication.

"I'm willing to skirt the law if I have to, and to ruin other people's lives for my own benefit."

"I'm sorry, you're not an anti-paladin. Have you considered a career in politics?"

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Gorbacz wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

In my mind, the anti paladin is lawful evil - no way around it! Chaotic evil doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I would keep paladins to just lawful good by the way. It's just to iconic and wrapped up in he tradition of the class ...

Except that the original 1ed Antipaladin was CE, and it's wrapped up in the tradition of the class as well. You don't want to mess with nostalgia here, go ask WotC what happened when they did that :)

This is probibly the best Pro- 4th Edtion comment I have ever heard.

Saying "You don't want to mess with nostalgia" = the game cannot change and grow. This is the path of obsolescence.

Dark Archive

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Auxmaulous wrote:
Oh, so they are only utterly moronic in your game - got it.

Dude, there's no need to be a dick, okay. Like he said, this is a thread about Anti-Paladins in your game. If you don't like the way someone is handling it in their game, get over it. Its their game, not yours, and you're obviously not playing in his game. Jeez.

Dark Archive

Evil Genius Prime wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
Oh, so they are only utterly moronic in your game - got it.
Dude, there's no need to be a dick, okay. Like he said, this is a thread about Anti-Paladins in your game. If you don't like the way someone is handling it in their game, get over it. Its their game, not yours, and you're obviously not playing in his game. Jeez.

Pointless and useless.

He hates the class - go back and read his first post.

So it isn't how he runs it in his game, his story and points reflect on how you are going to run it in yours - since he's seen how its been played the last 30 years.

He's come here to tell us how lowbrow the AP class is and edumucate us on true evil.

Dark Archive

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


The class write-up is incredibly vague. It could be used to stat up anything from Venger from the old Saturday morning cartoons to Hannibal Lecter.

........

That said, in my worlds, I tend to like paladins to have an actual code of chivalry and be answerable to a church hierarchy and I'd like the same to be true for anti-paladins.

So you post an absurd use and application of the class due to a vague write-up?

There's nothing wrong with running a CE class who has to follow some guidelines. He can be tied to a church or act as lone-wolf type. There is nothing in the apg which suggests that the AP can't be tied to a church.
I just don't get the threadcrap mock use point in your original post. Skull cod piece? CE alignment? Or is the class just beneath your level of sophistication?

Dark Archive

Auxmaulous wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


The class write-up is incredibly vague. It could be used to stat up anything from Venger from the old Saturday morning cartoons to Hannibal Lecter.

........

That said, in my worlds, I tend to like paladins to have an actual code of chivalry and be answerable to a church hierarchy and I'd like the same to be true for anti-paladins.

So you post an absurd use and application of the class due to a vague write-up?

There's nothing wrong with running a CE class who has to follow some guidelines. He can be tied to a church or act as lone-wolf type. There is nothing in the apg which suggests that the AP can't be tied to a church.
I just don't get the threadcrap mock use point in your original post. Skull cod piece? CE alignment? Or is the class just beneath your level of sophistication?

I see what you mean.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
the antipaladins have to follow a code of unchivalrous behavior, even small stuff like consistently calling the Lawful Evil queen of Cheliax "Toots" or "Honey" or various crude terms which would violate the "no profanity or vulgar speech" clause of the message boards.

Weird.

Contributor

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I just looked at the anti-paladin pictured in the APG and imagined the sort of character who would wear that outfit with a straight face. Then I wondered if that was the sort of person who would think that peeing in a holy water font was both funny and an appropriate act of desecration. Then I followed the thought from there.

I also thought about your standard diabolic lawful evil type's opinion of CE in general and anti-paladins in particular, and I thought that they would think of them as childish, immature, undisciplined, and painfully predictable. "Chaotic" is not something you associate with impulse control, and from a devil's perspective, an anti-paladin is an embarrassment to evil the same way a paladin is an embarrassment to law.

Frankly, I think anti-paladins are a lot the sort of frat boy types in all the horror movies who think summoning demons would be kewl--not very mature the same way that demons are not very mature.

You're welcome to play them differently if you want. But for purposes of the OP's question, yes, I restrict them to CE, even if they're constrained to a certain CE subset.


Oh, my! I never intended to cause a fuss. I thought the kids would like some candy, and a chance to run around and play a bit. I'm sure they get tired of being told to sit still, be quiet, and behave.

And what good is a nice, comfy sofa if you can't jump up and down on it once in a while? And knick-knacks can be replaced, deary! That's why you can find them anywhere, and so inexpensively at that.

Come inside, have a spot of tea and some fresh baked cookies. We'll let the kids play a bit while we have a nice little chat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

I like my paladins lawful good and I like my anti-paladins chaotic evil, and the same as the paladins better follow a code of chivalry, the antipaladins have to follow a code of unchivalrous behavior, even small stuff like consistently calling the Lawful Evil queen of Cheliax "Toots" or "Honey" or various crude terms which would violate the "no profanity or vulgar speech" clause of the message boards.

That last would fall under the category of "suicidal behavior" in Cheliax. Which would tend to thin out the ranks quite a bit.

On the other hand, does this mean that Dick Dastardly of the "Wacky Races" would qualify? On the one legitimate chance he had to win a race he deliberately threw it, declaring "If I cant win by cheating, I won't win at all!"


Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Are you using the Anti-Paladin in your game, or letting players play it?

If so, are you keep the alignment RAW or letting players play NE and LE as well?

I don't use the class straight out of the book, rather, I used a more heavily modified version.

I'm going to wax philosophical on the paladin [Pa] / antipaladin [APa] argument for a moment so please, bare with me.

I never much liked the idea of the boring, two dimensional treatment I've seen of the antipaladin in the past. Where he's simply the "mirror, mirror" opposite of his good opponent. Paladin has smite evil? - Antipaladin has smite good. Paladin has cure disease? - Antipaladin has cause disease. I just think this is kind of lame.

Why not have the anti Ranger (a firebug who destroys nature)... or the anti Bard (he kills you with his boring-ness)?

So, if I were to add 750 mls of paladin to 750 mls of antipaladin, I wouldn't like to see a caustic explosion with nothing remaining (which is how it often seems portrayed to me), but I'd like to see a turbulent, roiling, oil and water like mixture - one side simply not yielding to the other, and vice versa.

While it's possible to have all kinds of alignments, I personally would stick with LE for the antipaladin. So, they're on the same side of the spectrum with regard to law - but this represents the unyielding structure and framework necessary to keep these forces perpetually at odds.

As far as the other aspects of the antipaladin, I do view him as being a bit stronger than the paladin, since it's so much easier to destroy or damage than it is to create or protect. With this said, I'd keep him an NPC.


I think that Mark Radler exposes my point of view nicely. Anti-Paladin is LE.

Said this, it takes less than 5 seconds to transform the APG in a LE PC.

So ;)


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Perhaps my interpretation of Chaotic Evil is a little different from the standard (or at least the standard I've heard expressed here)

Furthermore, I'd like to point out a piece from the Antipaladin's code of conduct:

"An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and _altruistically_ commits good acts.

This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends."

I propose another interpretation of the as-written anti-paladin: The Dissembler. The Black-hearted terrorist that was once one of the greatest paragons of the very order he now works against, the systematic destroyer who uses tactics specifically designed to back his former allies into a corner, to force them to ever more desperate ends, who refuses to fight in a fashion that allows them to engage in straightforward action against him, who twists the boundaries of the moral codes his one-time-fellows follow until they barely resemble anything that can be recognized and leaves them facing an alien, murderous reasoning that knows neither limits, nor fear of the consequences of his actions.

You see, the antipaladin knows that all the moral restraints he faces are naught but the lies of the fearful and the doubting, designed to chain the weak and meek into positions of subservience. For in having had the veil torn from his eyes, he is _reborn_ understanding the doctrine of false justice and self-serving altruism for the lies that they are; nothing more then arbitrary lines of behavior that tie the hands of his former fellows just as his were once tied, but that now he can dance across and in and out of as needed, as immaterial as chalk drawings on the cold earth. In service to his ends, he suffers no strictures, is unfettered by attachment to worldly concerns that hinder his goals of ripping down the walls that protect those undeserving of more then death, no longer enslaved to the dogma of the lying Gods of Light, some call him mad, warped or petty, but they, as he once did, fail to understand.

He is _free_

That's one way to look at the RAW, anyway.

The Exchange

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I_Use_Ref_Discretion wrote:

...

I never much liked the idea of the boring, two dimensional treatment I've seen of the antipaladin in the past. Where he's simply the "mirror, mirror" opposite of his good opponent. Paladin has smite evil? - Antipaladin has smite good. Paladin has cure disease? - Antipaladin has cause disease. I just think this is kind of lame.

Why not have the anti Ranger (a firebug who destroys nature)... or the anti Bard (he kills you with his boring-ness)?...

Well, there is Blight Druid, who is like a Druid, except he like to DESTROY nature. And the Archivist Bard, who gets the ability to literally bore his enemies to sleep:

A.P.G. pg 80, Archivist Bard wrote:
Pedantic Lecture (Su): At 18th level, an archivist can affect as many creatures with lamentable belaborment as he currently has fascinated. In addition, he may choose to cause targets to fall asleep rather than be dazed or confused. This ability replaces mass suggestion.

Liberty's Edge

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Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
I just looked at the anti-paladin pictured in the APG and imagined the sort of character who would wear that outfit with a straight face. Then I wondered if that was the sort of person who would think that peeing in a holy water font was both funny and an appropriate act of desecration. Then I followed the thought from there.

That guy doesn't have a straight face, though. Look at him! He's stifling either a laugh or a fart. He's dressed like High King of Douchebags, and he knows it. But he doesn't care because he also knows that if you say anything about it to him, he's going to rearrange your face, and possibly your sphincter. That man bought his armor at Villains 'R' Us, and he absolutely does not give a damn about what you think. His name is Brad or Chaz, because all genuine douchebags are named Brad or Chaz, or maybe Brad Chazington III, heir to a long line of both Brads and Chazes. He stomps puppies, slaps orphans, and occasionally sets fire to nuns. If you asked him for the time of day, he'd beat you to death with an hourglass.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.

Jeremy Puckett

PS: This post is a parody and is not meant to make any judgment about people actually named Brad or Chaz or Brad Chazington. Good day.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Well played, Mr. Puckett. Well played.

Silver Crusade

hida_jiremi wrote:
His name is Brad or Chaz, because all genuine douchebags are named Brad or Chaz,

Don't forget Alain.


I have always thought that the original greyhawk anti-paladins were inspired by Demogorgon and CE due to abyssal connections.....

I use them as psychopathic (sometimes more like hannibal lecter than Jason) npc villains and usually pawns of CE deity-demon powers. Only a few very high level ones in existence.....

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