I've got a party of 8th level PCs (7 of them) who absolutely demolished two fire giants (a CR 12 encounter) on Sunday. They used a combination of hold person and coup de grace to basically demolish one of the giants right off. Then they basically bludgeoned/hacked/wholloped the other one for two rounds until he died.
This was supposed to be a fairly epic battle, but it became anticlimactic in the extreme.
The party has magic items/equipment in line with their level (according to party wealth in the Pathfinder Core). Am I doing something wrong?
personally i dont believe anything is wrong with that. they were just creative, very creative. maybe u just need to use more creatures like oozes and other creatures that cant be coupe de grace. and enemies that cant have hold person used on them
(7 of them)
Seven level 8 PCs comes out to an equivalent party level of about 10. CR 12 isn't so hard at that point, especially since more party members usually counts for more than tougher party members. I'd put my money on seven 8th level PCs over four 10th level PCs.
7 turn a round Vs. 2 turns a round. Ya the Pc are about to do more and 8 is not that low of a level. the CR are build for a a party of 4, So throw more at them, Like 4 giants next time. I don't think the pc are to tough just they have you out numbered
Nope your giants are too puny....
Actually, this might be close to the truth.
A while back, I posted something along these lines. The advice I got there has proven most useful.
With your example, for a party of eight characters (which is almost double the number), I would have added one or two more giants to the fight. This would have produced the epic battle that you were looking towards. :)
Thats nothing, my PCs*, 5 of them, 8th level, defeated this waves:
-1st round: 5 Bearbed Devils who got to summon 3 more.
-2nd round: 3 Ereneyes attackings from the darkness flying 120ft above the PCs so CR 9 each for favorable conditions
-3rd round: 6 Bearbed Devils didn't get a chance to summon.
-6th round: 1 Barbed Devil the poor batard didn't last a turn, kil half speech, the PC's even compared him to that guy from Sin City.
That sums up to CR 14.
-Half-orc Eldritch Knight
-Archer Paladin
-Monk
-Arcane Sorcerer
Humbly,
Yawar
Psdt: They half depleted for that fight.
I've got a party of 8th level PCs (7 of them) who absolutely demolished two fire giants (a CR 12 encounter) on Sunday. They used a combination of hold person and coup de grace to basically demolish one of the giants right off. Then they basically bludgeoned/hacked/wholloped the other one for two rounds until he died.
This was supposed to be a fairly epic battle, but it became anticlimactic in the extreme.
The party has magic items/equipment in line with their level (according to party wealth in the Pathfinder Core). Am I doing something wrong?
fire giants being effected by hold person is one of the pathfinder changes I dislike.
But in answering your question you arent doing anything wrond though you have to meet numbers with numbers for balance IMO
You need to add some mooks to the fight. If you are doing 7 actions vs 2, or even worse, 1, then you need to get more actions. Throw some ogres in there. Maybe give them a level of barbarian and Weapon Focus so they can rage and be sure to hit level 8 ACs. But they shouldn't have TOO much staying power, so it's OK if they're glass cannons. They're just there to use up PCs actions so the PCs don't swarm against one or two opponents.
What others have said is true.
Basically, with a 7 man party, you need to have at least three enemies in a pivotal encounter. Otherwise they're going to gang up on whatever presents itself as the most dangerous target, and the number of actions is disproportionate.
If you really wanted to use two fire giants as a threat against 7 PCs, you could use dire wolves or anything of a lower CR that could run interference, flank, and provide more actions to the opposition.
Divide and conquer! You can only challenge a party that big by dividing their resources!
What others have said is true.
Basically, with a 7 man party, you need to have at least three enemies in a pivotal encounter. Otherwise they're going to gang up on whatever presents itself as the most dangerous target, and the number of actions is disproportionate.
If you really wanted to use two fire giants as a threat against 7 PCs, you could use dire wolves or anything of a lower CR that could run interference, flank, and provide more actions to the opposition.
Divide and conquer! You can only challenge a party that big by dividing their resources!
I think you mean hellhounds! ;-)
I think you mean hellhounds! ;-)
I did, in fact. Good looking out.
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Basically, with a 7 man party, you need to have at least three enemies in a pivotal encounter. Otherwise they're going to gang up on whatever presents itself as the most dangerous target, and the number of actions is disproportionate.
Agreed, the number of actions advantage is too great, effectively reducing the CR. The standard tactic to concentrate damage on one creature and move on works even better when there are only a couple of foes.
Are there any good rules-of-thumb around this? For example that you need at least half the number of opponents that are in the party to make the encounter into a challenge?
The hold person was lucky - presumably no more than 50% chance of this landing - and the PCs had to be in position to take advantage with full round actions immediately. This halved the CR of the fight in one or two rounds. This again points towards having more in the encounter - as a single lucky combo can take out 50% of the encounter in one hit.
PCs ARE too powerful. They win so frequently. Totally OP and broken.
Seven 8th level PCs make about CR 13. And encounter of CR 12 should be a difficult one (about Epic in game terms).
However, that's 2 monsters against 7 PCs. I haven't read the Fire giant stat block, but I'm not sure if a Fire giant is the kind of "Solo" monster designed to deal with four PCs.
You may also overlook some rules, when players use a feat/power/rule wrong they usually do it for their own benefit, with 7 players you can't track the actions of all players.
And, of course, some dice rolls can make a encounter more difficult or easier (like those involved with hold monster and Coup de Grace)
Also, what are the Ability Scores of your characters? Do you use near-average hps? High HPs and Ability Scores increase the CR of the party.
Seven 8th level PCs make about CR 13. And encounter of CR 12 should be a difficult one (about Epic in game terms).
However, that's 2 monsters against 7 PCs. I haven't read the Fire giant stat block, but I'm not sure if a Fire giant is the kind of "Solo" monster designed to deal with four PCs.
They are melee monsters. Melee monsters don't solo well past the first few levels.
Action economy at its worst (best?). You essentially had 2 monsters solo 2 parties (with 7 players that is basically 2 parties). This doesnt work. Unless you use some spectacular tactics, or have an extremely well designed enemy, Single monsters (or in this case 2 monsters against a double party) will end up dissappointing, one way or the other. Either the monster just gets ganged up on and whalloped, or they are individually too much of a threat to a single party member and might just outright kill one pc in a single turn. This is not the makings of a memorable encounter.
You should always have mooks. Always. You should always at least equal your party in terms of the number of threatening opponents. In an epic fight you should outnumber them. There should have been 10 enemies in this fight.
In addition to that ofc, you misjudge your CR. 7 Level 8 parties isnt going to have ane epic fight against a CR 12 encounter. CR 14 would have been more approrpiate as 7 level 8's probably counts as a level 11 party. But again, be sure you dont just include 1 or 2 monsters to make that CR 14, spread it out so as to get more actions, and so that the individual targets are not too powerful for individual PCs.
A better encounter here would have been something along the lines of 1 fire giant and 8 or 9 huge fire elementalts. Now your enemies have numbers on the party, and the CR7 huge elementals are a threat but not overwhelming to an individual pc of level 8. A single save or lose spell (like hold person) wont win or lose the encounter, and battlefield control becomes more important then just beating your enemies to a pulp.
You should always have mooks. Always. You should always at least equal your party in terms of the number of threatening opponents. In an epic fight you should outnumber them. There should have been 10 enemies in this fight.
Well... I can only partially stand behind this statement. It's not a hard and fast rule. Rather, once you understand how the number of actions on each side interacts with CR, you can safely experiment.
For example, my own party is about to fight a stone giant Wizard PC who will probably pose a challenge solo to a party of four. This is because he has controlled his environment to minimize enemy actions, so it works.
This is why battlefield-control types appear as big villains more often than melee brutes — they have better options for limiting the enemy response, as opposed to soaking up the damage. It is still wise to consider throwing a bodyguard or two in there, but if you really really want a solo BBEG, you need to understand the huge role that actions play.
You should always have mooks. Always. You should always at least equal your party in terms of the number of threatening opponents. In an epic fight you should outnumber them. There should have been 10 enemies in this fight.
Well... I can only partially stand behind this statement. It's not a hard and fast rule. Rather, once you understand how the number of actions on each side interacts with CR, you can safely experiment.
Well I did have a point somewhat above that where you need to have good tactics for it to work at all (maybe spectacular was overstatingit), though I still think it is a bad idea. The reason is in order to use tactics to allow a monster to solo, you have to constatly directly counter your players. You have to muck up the melee guys in battlefield control so they dont get to you, and disable or minimize casters. An encounter where you are constantly countered by the enemy is only slightly better then a tpk or cakewalk encounter, because the players rarely get to actually do anything their character was meant to do.
Another thing to look at is your PCs stats. The CR comparison thing not only assumes 4 PCs but also those built at around a 15 point buy. If you use more points (20 or 25) or roll stats you've got to account for that in your enemies as well.
I haven't read a single thing above, and based only on the question. \i'm going with no, they aren't powerful enough. you should give them more, what kind of cheep dm are you.\ ;-)
please note: \\ is the notation for sarcasm. that way everyone knows.
Another thing to look at is your PCs stats. The CR comparison thing not only assumes 4 PCs but also those built at around a 15 point buy. If you use more points (20 or 25) or roll stats you've got to account for that in your enemies as well.
Actually the standard stat generation is 4d6 drop the lowest, which statistically is closer to 20 point buy then 15. The idea that 20 is the standard is also given strength by the fact that pathfinder society is 20 points instead of 15.
Ok, my first post here so please be kind...
We are about to start a campaign where we are going to play the offspring of one of our Old Heroic Characters. I have decided it is going to be a child of a Wizard/Rogue I played back in the day of D&D 2nd edition.
My question to you is as follows: How does magic affect one's offspring?
The reason I ask this is my Mage/Rogue was rez'd several times in fact to may times to explain. But during this process he was brought back as several different Races. He also lost his original body in Ravenloft to Strahd, again don't ask. He was also the first one to gain the ability to use Wild Magic in our Campaign be it NPC or PC.
I figure all this has messed him up a bit including how it would affect his offspring. I was thinking that his offspring would be a Tiefling but then I could be way off base here so any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
All fighters and melee monsters need, at minimum, Iron Will and Improved Iron Will. If they don't have those already, swap out their feats for them immediately. That will prevent about 75% of these "no contest" scenarios.
Ok, my first post here so please be kind...
My question to you is as follows: How does magic affect one's offspring?
Welcome! Unfortunately, there are no core rules governing the kind of thing you're discussing. Your best bet is to talk it over with your DM and find a solution you all agree on. Another, simpler alternative is to play the child as a sorcerer with the appropriate bloodline (see Sorcerer rules).
P.S. You'll most likely get more answers, better answers, and faster answers, by starting a new thread when asking a totally unrelated question, rather than by posting it into the middle of an unrelated ongoing discussion.
Another thing to look at is your PCs stats. The CR comparison thing not only assumes 4 PCs but also those built at around a 15 point buy. If you use more points (20 or 25) or roll stats you've got to account for that in your enemies as well.Actually the standard stat generation is 4d6 drop the lowest, which statistically is closer to 20 point buy then 15. The idea that 20 is the standard is also given strength by the fact that pathfinder society is 20 points instead of 15.
The standard point-buy is 15 points, and Paizo suggest to give a few traits for free if you are gonna play the Adventure Paths.
4d6 is the standard stat generation IF you roll dices, but it isn't what the APs were designed for, just look at the sample characters that come with Paizo adventures or the "average" stat array method for 3rd Edition. I also doubt that is what the game was designed for.
Actually the 4d6/drop the lowest method generates Ability Scores worth a bit more than 25 points in the point-buy system.
___
To the OP:
IMO 20 points is ok.
What's more, my own experience tells me that playing with 25 points, even 30, isn't enough to modify the CR.
I've got a party of 8th level PCs (7 of them) who absolutely demolished two fire giants (a CR 12 encounter) on Sunday. They used a combination of hold person and coup de grace to basically demolish one of the giants right off. Then they basically bludgeoned/hacked/wholloped the other one for two rounds until he died.
This was supposed to be a fairly epic battle, but it became anticlimactic in the extreme.
The party has magic items/equipment in line with their level (according to party wealth in the Pathfinder Core). Am I doing something wrong?
As other people have been saying/alluding to, your main mistake is treating the party as a single entity. What you've got is 2 parties of 8th level characters - even better than 2 parties, you've got 2 parties that can reform themselves in any combination of the 7 base characters. So instead of a large party of 8th level characters facing a CR12 multi-creature encounter, you've got a party of 8th level characters facing a solo CR10 encounter (x2).
I suspect you'd have had a more epic fight with a pair of CR8 giants for each one (for a net of 4 stone giants vs the 7 PCs if my memory serves).
I am playing in a game and we have 8 PC's... and one thing my dm knows not to do is to put us up against less then 3 monsters...usually atleast 4 bad guys. Also one thing about large parties you are more likely to have people who have better tactics that practically boost their CR higher then the other pc's...
In my opinion. Squads are always great. You are going to have the big main badguys of the fights and mooks/minions that run interference. With parties that are the size of 7 or 8 its best to have those lower CR characters to run interference on the spell casters.
The make up of our Party is as follows... all lvl 9
Half Orc Paladin (me)
Half Orc Barbarian/Fighter
Half Elf Elemental Sorc
Human Ranger (archery)
Human Bard (Archer)
Human Monk 1/8 Druid
Aasimar Cleric
Teifling Rogue
Human Wizard (Diviner)
In otherwords release the Putty Patrollers along with the key monsters.
What you end up having are what look like small skirmishes instead of small heroic battles.
You can also think of the break down this way. What you have is one group of 4 PCs and one group of 3 PCs. Each "group" needs it's own encounter so you could try doubling up the encounters.
i'm my saturday group we recently started a new campaign and have 8 2nd level pcs. tis a pathfinder game with allowed case by case 3.5. edition splats. the only adapted part of the splat classes is the skill list.
my current party (all 2nd level)
Female Tian Shadow Hand Swordsage 2 (Me) (mishhmash of low level manuevers, will eventually get better at shadow hand, stone dragon and setting sun. carries an ancestral wakizashi)
Male Dwarven Axe And Board Fighter 2 (Dale) (never power attacks, always carries a dwarven waraxe that eventually becomes flaming and adamantine at the first possible moment)
Female Dwarven Axe and Board Duskblade 2 (spams blade of blood) (Aaron)
Male Tian Cleric of Irori 2 (healing/rune) (loves his blast runes) (Harvey)
Female Illumian Binder 1/Transmuter 1 (some hybrid PRC planned) (Seth)
Male Vudrani Psionicist 2 (Nomad) (Javier)
Male Half-elf Switch hitter Ranger 2 (will eventually go rogue/shadowdancer) (George)
Male Human Abberrant Sorcerer 2 (New guy)
my saturday dm doesn't ever use any errata whatsoever, he is against such a thing. and he also doesn't allow the researching of online handbooks at his table. no matter who writes them. his packet includes a 20 page long list of banned websites that all have a minmax board, an eratta section, a homebrwew board or list of handbooks.
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In a situation like the OP mentioned, if the party were to gank one of my giants in the first turn, I would applaud them their strategy, I would heap beaucoup XPs and treasure if they survive the encounter, and then would throw on the "hidden" "missing" or "surprise" giant that was over yonder in the holler peeing in the stream or something. Maybe in that point a large bear/pet/familiar, or something. Perhaps even a small tribe of gobbos or orcs which "service" the giants who were doing some menial task.
See, It wasnt so much that the giants were too puny, which they were, it was more that you had 7 dudes ganging up on the one dude. Throw some mooks at them, wherein they cannot just take full round actions all willy nilly like, and see where it goes. Let the PCs get flanked by Lamey McLamerlame the orc farmer, smacking him with a hoe, and see wherein that tactic takes the party.
Modify on the run, as it were. If the mooks prove to be too much, let them flee in terror from the spooky "giant killer" party, or have them turn on the giants at the last instant...after all, the giants were brow-beating them into cooperation, and here are your PCs, now saviors of this particular tribe.