I noticed that the Summoner can't have his eidolon summoned and use a summon monster spell at the same time. This is baffling to me. Why not? A druid can have his animal companion and still use Summon Nature's Ally, and Druids get 9th level spells! Wizards and Clerics get 9th level spells, and they can have a horde of undead and summoned monsters at the same time. I just don't understand why it's okay for those classes to have multiple minions but not the class that's dedicated to summoning and gives up a large chunk of spells for that ability.
Actually, they can use the spell at the same time as their Eidolon. They cannot use their Eidolon and their spell-like ability to cast summon monster at the same time.
It's dumb either way, though.
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This is so the summoner doesn't take up half of turn order time.
As it sits, they will typically take 3 turns worth of time for every 1 most other players will take. If this were to change back to how it was then they would be getting 4 creatures to take move/standard actions for. In short they are show stealers and are not fun for other players to sit around and wait for during combat.
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This is so the summoner doesn't take up half of turn order time.
As it sits, they will typically take 3 turns worth of time for every 1 most other players will take. If this were to change back to how it was then they would be getting 4 creatures to take move/standard actions for. In short they are show stealers and are not fun for other players to sit around and wait for during combat.
Solution! Everyone plays a Summoner! Imagine a world where everyone has at least one level of Summoner. Kinda makes me think of "The Golden Compass"
Of course, I'm not being serious folks. But now that I think about it.....
This is so the summoner doesn't take up half of turn order time.
As it sits, they will typically take 3 turns worth of time for every 1 most other players will take. If this were to change back to how it was then they would be getting 4 creatures to take move/standard actions for. In short they are show stealers and are not fun for other players to sit around and wait for during combat.
This argument has been beaten to death before. A prepared player should take no longer than the DM does to run his NPC's. I run my NPC's faster than some of my players so I don't think that is the issue. They did not undo the druid's summoning, who also has a pet, so I can't agree with the "steal the show" reason.
In the other summoner thread tips were given to shorten the player's action time at the table. Rolling multiple dice at once speeds things up a lot. Having your summons statted out, and not having to pause the game, to look them up also helps things. I tell my players that have summons to have the stats ready. If they dont have a printer I will print them out for them. Waiting for someone to look at the summon monster list, and then go to the bestiary won't happen. Other people had other ways to speed things up.
This is so the summoner doesn't take up half of turn order time.
As it sits, they will typically take 3 turns worth of time for every 1 most other players will take. If this were to change back to how it was then they would be getting 4 creatures to take move/standard actions for. In short they are show stealers and are not fun for other players to sit around and wait for during combat.
But it's okay for a Wizard or Cleric with summoned monsters plus 4x his level in HD of undead to take up half of the turn order time?
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This argument has been beaten to death before. A prepared player should take no longer than the DM does to run his NPC's. I run my NPC's faster than some of my players so I don't think that is the issue. They did not undo the druid's summoning, who also has a pet, so I can't agree with the "steal the show" reason.
In the other summoner thread tips were given to shorten the player's action time at the table. Rolling multiple dice at once speeds things up a lot. Having your summons statted out, and not having to pause the game, to look them up also helps things. I tell my players that have summons to have the stats ready. If they dont have a printer I will print them out for them. Waiting for someone to look at the summon monster list, and then go to the bestiary won't happen. Other people had other ways to speed things up.
While I agree with all things being equal it is a situation I've seen at the table since the playtest went final where other players just plain get jealous of the fact that they get so many actions. While they shouldn't take too long they still take considerably longer than other players do.
I think to some extent though all of the APG classes are kinda show stealers compared to the tried and true classes mainly because of the fact that they are new and interesting.
So are we looking at a possible house-ruling for most people?
I certainly hope not! This was a move done to help balance the class, and undoing it wont help your table any more than letting your bard have unlimited rounds of performance each day. It may seem to be "lame" but is was done for specific balance reasons, the likes of which HAVE been described in good measure by Paizo.
This is one of the bad things about playtesting content, players get used to abilities the way they were when they were playtesting them and complain when they cannot see the forest through the trees when all is said and done. What I am saying is James Jacobs did not kill your baby.
So are we looking at a possible house-ruling for most people?
Yeps. Now if I had players that were unprepared(See my previous post), I would still make the houserule. They just don't get to use anything without readily available stats.
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What I am saying is James Jacobs did not kill your baby.
I Know he didn't kill MY baby. I wasn't a part of the playtest, and intentionally waited to see the final product. I have no problem with it the way it is. I was just a random passerby that wanted to ask a question. And suddenly you're saying he didn't kill my baby?! I don't even have a baby!
Seriously, I'm just kidding man. I didn't take any offense to the baby remark. I did find it amusing though.
So are we looking at a possible house-ruling for most people?
I certainly hope so! If I run a game I'm going back to the second round of play testing. In other words I am getting rid of the mount tax, eidolons can be large at level 6, you can use the SLA at the same time as the eidolon (but only one SLA at a time), and the eidolon doesn't go a way if you fall asleep.
The game I'm going to be playing in I am going to play a RAW summoner and it may eventually be house ruled.
you can use the SLA at the same time as the eidolon (but only one SLA at a time), and the eidolon doesn't go a way if you fall asleep.
I like this too.
This argument has been beaten to death before. A prepared player should take no longer than the DM does to run his NPC's. I run my NPC's faster than some of my players so I don't think that is the issue. They did not undo the druid's summoning, who also has a pet, so I can't agree with the "steal the show" reason.
In the other summoner thread tips were given to shorten the player's action time at the table. Rolling multiple dice at once speeds things up a lot. Having your summons statted out, and not having to pause the game, to look them up also helps things. I tell my players that have summons to have the stats ready. If they dont have a printer I will print them out for them. Waiting for someone to look at the summon monster list, and then go to the bestiary won't happen. Other people had other ways to speed things up.While I agree with all things being equal it is a situation I've seen at the table since the playtest went final where other players just plain get jealous of the fact that they get so many actions. While they shouldn't take too long they still take considerably longer than other players do.
I think to some extent though all of the APG classes are kinda show stealers compared to the tried and true classes mainly because of the fact that they are new and interesting.
Yeah I don't agree with the "Steal the Show" either. Any class can do that if the player is creative enough. If they are taking too long to go through their turn then they need to be more prepared. They can plan out their next turn while others are going, instead of waiting until they are up again to decide what they are going to do. Print out the stats for summons that they are using, or look them up ahead of time. The longest part of a turn for games that I'm in is just adding up the damage dice.
This is so the summoner doesn't take up half of turn order time.
Only superficially. Any idiot (literally) will take up 3/4 of turn order time because they either have no idea or can't decide what they are doing when their only choices are cast a spell or swing a stick.
If I get the time and inclination, I may either rewrite the Summoner as a choice class or split it into two individual classes - a True Summoner and a True Thaumaturgist.
when the playtests were first released, the summoner was the class i was the most excited about. now i wouldn't play one if you paid me.
they butchered the class. maybe it's just me, but if i'm going to play a caster, i want a caster, not some gimped out half caster with a gimmick class feature.
the 3/4 bab is nearly worthless for this class given that a) you don't have enough spells that require an attack roll for it to matter, and b) you don't get a single class feature that supports using a weapon. give me half bab and better casting (or, better yet, enough with the blatant favoritism shown to divine casters over arcane).
what really baffles me is this: if it was the eidilon that was breaking the class, why not tone that back instead of nerfing the summoner's ability to summon?
burly "free" (obviously it's not really free, since it costs you just about everything) cohort aside, they're by far the worst summoner in the game.
as for the "they take up too much time at the table" argument, stupid players are not a good reason to nerf a class. come prepared with stat sheets for commonly summoned monsters. people who use a lot of polymorph spells should be doing the same thing (having their augmented stats all plotted out ahead of time), and enchanters need to keep detailed notes on their charmed menagerie.
edit: also, the shared magic item pool is just a slap in the face.
when initial play testing showed that the original incarnation of the summoner was completely broken, they should have started over from scratch rather than trying to cobble it back together with duct tape and super glue.
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I'm convinced. The Summoner as is needs to be houseruled. Which is sad. Just sad.
In 12 hours you went from random passerby to this? Without ever apparently playing the class or being in a group with one?
Since you are so easy to convince I have four USD million dollars I am trying to transfer from my Nigerian bank account, all I need is you to give me your checking account numbers...
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I'm convinced. The Summoner as is needs to be houseruled. Which is sad. Just sad.In 12 hours you went from random passerby to this? Without ever apparently playing the class or being in a group with one?
Since you are so easy to convince I have four USD million dollars I am trying to transfer from my Nigerian bank account, all I need is you to give me your checking account numbers...
LOL!!! Actually, I've been reading the Summoner in the APG, (I even rolled one up), taking into account what everyone is saying, and have even bounced all this off a few friends who don't frequent these boards. Its an educated decision. However, if I actually PLAY one, (as opposed to always being the DM) I may think differently. But I am leaning strongly towards house-ruling.
PS. I'll have to pass on the $4,000,000. We only use sodapop bottle caps for currency here.
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I'm convinced. The Summoner as is needs to be houseruled. Which is sad. Just sad.In 12 hours you went from random passerby to this? Without ever apparently playing the class or being in a group with one?
Since you are so easy to convince I have four USD million dollars I am trying to transfer from my Nigerian bank account, all I need is you to give me your checking account numbers...
LOL!!! Actually, I've been reading the Summoner in the APG, (I even rolled one up), taking into account what everyone is saying, and have even bounced all this off a few friends who don't frequent these boards. Its an educated decision. However, if I actually PLAY one, (as opposed to always being the DM) I may think differently. But I am leaning strongly towards house-ruling.
PS. I'll have to pass on the $4,000,000. We only use sodapop bottle caps for currency here.
Fair enough. I would just suggest you try it out for a bit before you implement a lot of house rules on something. My experience with the class is significantly different.
As for the cash, it's yours for the taking. It just has some dye on it and I need a few hundred USD to get some chemicals to wash the dye out.
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Fair enough. I would just suggest you try it out for a bit before you implement a lot of house rules on something. My experience with the class is significantly different.As for the cash, it's yours for the taking. It just has some dye on it and I need a few hundred USD to get some chemicals to wash the dye out.
Yeah. What I plan to do is run the Summoner I rolled up this morning along side my player's characters as an NPC, just to see how it goes. I can see both sides of the argument though. Hell, maybe the Summoner will play just fine as is. For some reason, I thought that its Summon Monster Spells couldn't be used without banishing the Eidolon. But its actually just the Summon Monster SLA. ANyway, we'll see how it goes. I'll post back here with what I decide.
As for the money, is it that cool purple dye, or the lame yellow? I once saw a die bomd explode in a large bag of quarters as the criminal sprinted away from the video arcade where he got them. I was 8 and thought it was the coolest thing. LOL!
Fair enough. I would just suggest you try it out for a bit before you implement a lot of house rules on something. My experience with the class is significantly different.As for the cash, it's yours for the taking. It just has some dye on it and I need a few hundred USD to get some chemicals to wash the dye out.
Yeah. What I plan to do is run the Summoner I rolled up this morning along side my player's characters as an NPC, just to see how it goes. I can see both sides of the argument though. Hell, maybe the Summoner will play just fine as is. For some reason, I thought that its Summon Monster Spells couldn't be used without banishing the Eidolon. But its actually just the Summon Monster SLA. ANyway, we'll see how it goes. I'll post back here with what I decide.
As for the money, is it that cool purple dye, or the lame yellow? I once saw a die bomd explode in a large bag of quarters as the criminal sprinted away from the video arcade where he got them. I was 8 and thought it was the coolest thing. LOL!
I figure that only a couple of changes need to be made in regards to the SLA. Because as it is now the SLA is pretty much useless, no eidolon at the same time and you can only have one use of it active at a time. And to get around that, you have to waste your spells on Summon Monster because the class ability is broken. So you got to spend additional resources to just be equal to other classes that get the spell as well.
I would change it to where you can use the SLA with the eidolon, but keep the restriction of having one use at a time. Unless you don't have the eidolon out, then in that case the SLA is unlimited just like the spell.