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I can't figure out why the witches familiar costs 500g per witch level and the wizard's arcane bond costs 200g per level to replace, but has a bigger wait time.
Is the higher price to compensate for the shorter wait?
I'm seriously considering giving both of them the same cost and the wait time of 1 day in my upcoming game. Comments on if that is bad or good?
The witch familiar is also a "spell book" as well, so you are really replacing two things that the wizard has. So that could be the reason for the higher cost.
I can't figure out why the witches familiar costs 500g per witch level and the wizard's arcane bond costs 200g per level to replace, but has a bigger wait time.
Is the higher price to compensate for the shorter wait?
I'm seriously considering giving both of them the same cost and the wait time of 1 day in my upcoming game. Comments on if that is bad or good?
My guess is that it's because the witch's familiar is also its spellbook.
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Hmm. okay. but if my wizard loses his spellbook it doesn't cost him 300 gold per level. All my wizards (and most others I've run into in games), have more than one spellbook. (usually I have one, the rogue has one, the tank has one, my familiar has one, and I keep one back in town. Now that's excessive, but I'd have to assume any wizard who can afford it would have at least a single backup spellbook.)
Costs of duplicating spellbooks
2.5g per level 0 + 5g per lv 1 + 20g per lv2 + 45g per lv3 + 80g per lv4 + 125g per lv5 + 180g per lv6 + 245g per lv7 + 320g per lv8 + 405g per lv9.
While it may be expensive at high levels, at level one, losing my spellbook costs 80g+(intmod*5)g. Lets say int of 20, cause you're an elf and you put your 18 in int. Thats 105g.
500g/level sounds way too high to me.
I really hate the walking spellbook issue. At least you can make a copy of a real spellbook, and it is easier to replace the spells if you don't.
My changes:
Witches are now charisma based casters. My other idea was to make them wisdom based just because there are no wisdom based arcane casters. The intelligent thing just does not work for me.
Familiar-If the familiar is lost the witch loses access to bonus spell list. The DC of the witch’s spells take a -2 penalty, and the witch effectively loses 2 caster levels. This means for the purposes of determining the duration of a spell, spell resistance checks, concentration checks, caster level checks, and making magic items, the penalty applies, but the caster does not lose any spells(except for the ones that come from the bonus spell list), nor does the number of spells that can be cast per day lessen.
Hexes. The witch does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity for using Supernatural Abilities ever.
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I really hate the walking spellbook issue. At least you can make a copy of a real spellbook, and it is easier to replace the spells if you don't.
Yep. I like the *Idea* of the walking familiar as spellbook though.
Witches are now charisma based casters. My other idea was to make them wisdom based just because there are no wisdom based arcane casters. The intelligent thing just does not work for me.
I don't think cha is a good fit for the witch, AND they're not spontaneous casters (their power does not come from inside them). WIS would work better for this one. I think Paizo may be approaching it like this (seems to be the trend).
Casts like A Wizard ("Spellbook"): IntSpontaneous with limited list: Cha
Access to all spells on list: Wis.
Familiar-If the familiar is lost the witch loses access to bonus spell list. The DC of the witch’s spells take a -2 penalty, and the witch effectively loses 2 caster levels. This means for the purposes of determining the duration of a spell, spell resistance checks, concentration checks, caster level checks, and making magic items, the penalty applies, but the caster does not lose any spells(except for the ones that come from the bonus spell list), nor does the number of spells that can be cast per day lessen.
Sounds nifty. How do they prepare the other spells?
Hexes. The witch does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity for using Supernatural Abilities ever.
Hmm. didn't notice it provoked. [Edit]None of the ones in the APG Provoke AoOs (unless I missed something.)
See, the walking spellbook thing is fine to me, but if they cost so much to replace, they really should return with all your previously known spells, not just the ones you get for free from levels.
It is because I really like the class....and without fail when I really like a class it get hit by a nerf stick...or just does not get any support. :)
I'm seriously considering house ruling the witch to choose an aspect at 1st level, Maiden, Matron, or Hag. Maiden using CHA to cast spells, Matron using WIS, and Hag using INT. Other than affecting skill points (since a WIS/CHA witch would theoretically have less INT), it would be just a flavor thing.
I'm still mulling it over, trying to see if I can find any major issues with it.
As to the familiar costing more than a bonded item... I'm a little troubled by it myself. At least, I was, until I realized. Part of that is that you can add spells to your familiar for free, unlike a Wizard who has to pay for every spell.
Remember, two familiars can teach each other spells without costing gold.
There's also the fact that the bonded item does far less, unless you go ahead and enhance it - but then my understand is that you have to pay for those enhancement anyway, so it'll end up costing you *more* in the end (max cost for a Witch's familiar is 10,000 gp. Max cost for a bonded item? There isn't, 'cause you can just make it a +5 holy bonded item of awesomesauce that'll also let you cast burning hands [or whatever] without memorizing it.)
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If you are playing with GM who tends to kill familiars, don't play a witch. Discuss it with your GM first. I just did that for my new witch. Basically "Look, I won't endanger my familiar by using it to cast, apply touch spells or scout dangerous areas if we can just assume that it is smart enough to climb into a shoulder bag or whatever when danger is afoot."
If you use your familiar for flavor and the basic bonuses, a GM shouldn't attack it. Your wand-using Quasit or touch-delivering celestial falcon, on the other hand, is fair game.
I'm going to be GMing. I'll consider the familiar fair game if it's anywhere near combat. I also don't inhibit pvp, and don't plan to guarantee that other players won't kill it to get in the way of her casting if the witch does something they don't like. I don't want anyone crying foul at me if/when it happens, so I try to nip these things in the bud in advance.
As for witches not being intelligence-based, it really depends on what book/movie/whatever the witch is in. Witches who cast via complicated spells are INT - based (eye of newt and all that). Witches who call upon gods or devils would be Wis-Based. Witches who primarily call on spirits would be Cha-based.
Of course, one could say that all three are just flavored versions of the Wizard, Cleric and Summoner.
Right now they receive their casting from some mysterious patron whom they don't know. that to me screams wisdom based.
I'm still mulling it over, trying to see if I can find any major issues with it.
I don't see a problem with it. Personally I like the whole praying to an unknown benefactor thing.
As to the familiar costing more than a bonded item... I'm a little troubled by it myself. At least, I was, until I realized. Part of that is that you can add spells to your familiar for free, unlike a Wizard who has to pay for every spell.
Remember, two familiars can teach each other spells without costing gold.
True. it's still costing you time and spells though(you're giving them a spell). I don't think it'll come up very often so I'm loathe to make that the big balancing factor for the giant price tag.
There's also the fact that the bonded item does far less, unless you go ahead and enhance it - but then my understand is that you have to pay for those enhancement anyway, so it'll end up costing you *more* in the end (max cost for a Witch's familiar is 10,000 gp. Max cost for a bonded item? There isn't, 'cause you can just make it a +5 holy bonded item of awesomesauce that'll also let you cast burning hands [or whatever] without memorizing it.)
Your bonded item can also just be a belt buckle (exaggeration from me). a familiar costs the same as a bonded item to replace for base cost, and I just mentioned the cost to replace a lv1 spellbook is about 100g. I'm not saying they should have the same price tag, just that the witch price tag is too high.
I'm still mulling it over, trying to see if I can find any major issues with it.I don't see a problem with it. Personally I like the whole praying to an unknown benefactor thing.
Yep, I'm still not finding anything broken, and am leaning more heavily.
True. it's still costing you time and spells though(you're giving them a spell). I don't think it'll come up very often so I'm loathe to make that the big balancing factor for the giant price tag.As to the familiar costing more than a bonded item... I'm a little troubled by it myself. At least, I was, until I realized. Part of that is that you can add spells to your familiar for free, unlike a Wizard who has to pay for every spell.
Remember, two familiars can teach each other spells without costing gold.
Sorry, but you're wrong. It only takes you time. Not spells. You aren't giving away the spell, you're teaching it to the other familiar.
Familiar Teaching Familiar: A witch’s familiar can learn
spells from another witch’s familiar. To accomplish this,
the familiars must spend one hour per level of the spell
being taught in communion with one another. At the end
of this time, the witch whose familiar is learning a spell
must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the
check succeeds, the familiar has learned the spell and the
witch may utilize it the next time she prepares spells. If
the check fails, the familiar has failed to learn the spell
and cannot try to learn that spell again until the witch has
gained another rank in Spellcraft. Most witches require a
spell of equal or greater level in return for this service. If
a familiar belongs to a witch that has died, it only retains
its knowledge of spells for 24 hours, during which time it
is possible to coerce or bribe the familiar into teaching its
spells to another, subject to GM discretion
See, the walking spellbook thing is fine to me, but if they cost so much to replace, they really should return with all your previously known spells, not just the ones you get for free from levels.
Thus the importance of a Witch's Coven. Witches have a VERY good reason to associate with each other - they not only have a chance to learn more spells, but friendly Witches are basically backup spellbooks for each other. Only the highest level Witch in any given coven has anything to worry over lost spell knowledge.
I really hate the walking spellbook issue. At least you can make a copy of a real spellbook, and it is easier to replace the spells if you don't.Yep. I like the *Idea* of the walking familiar as spellbook though.
Witches are now charisma based casters. My other idea was to make them wisdom based just because there are no wisdom based arcane casters. The intelligent thing just does not work for me.I don't think cha is a good fit for the witch, AND they're not spontaneous casters (their power does not come from inside them). WIS would work better for this one. I think Paizo may be approaching it like this (seems to be the trend).
Casts like A Wizard ("Spellbook"): Int
Spontaneous with limited list: Cha
Access to all spells on list: Wis.
I know how they did it, but int does not make sense to me since witches in the stories I have read were either perceptive to their surroundings or charismatic. A wisdom based approach would not be bad. I am still toying around with the mechanic
Familiar-If the familiar is lost the witch loses access to bonus spell list. The DC of the witch’s spells take a -2 penalty, and the witch effectively loses 2 caster levels. This means for the purposes of determining the duration of a spell, spell resistance checks, concentration checks, caster level checks, and making magic items, the penalty applies, but the caster does not lose any spells(except for the ones that come from the bonus spell list), nor does the number of spells that can be cast per day lessen.Sounds nifty. How do they prepare the other spells?
All the spells memorized, and selected daily. When the familiar dies the witch only loses access to the ones from the bonus list. I am really liking the idea of a wisdom based witch.
Hexes. The witch does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity for using Supernatural Abilities ever.
Hmm. didn't notice it provoked.
[Edit]None of the ones in the APG Provoke AoOs (unless I missed something.)
I think in the final playtest some of them provoke, and the APG said none of them provoke unless stated otherwise. My ruling is that they will never provoke no matter what the rules say, ever.
See, the walking spellbook thing is fine to me, but if they cost so much to replace, they really should return with all your previously known spells, not just the ones you get for free from levels.Thus the importance of a Witch's Coven. Witches have a VERY good reason to associate with each other - they not only have a chance to learn more spells, but friendly Witches are basically backup spellbooks for each other. Only the highest level Witch in any given coven has anything to worry over lost spell knowledge.
And only if she's more ahead of her sisters to the point where she has a higher level spell known. On the other hand, if that's the case, more than likely, she's not losing any spells, as the familiar comes with her selected spells again, just not anything she taught it or it learned from another. So even then she wouldn't be out any spells unless she'd bought scrolls to buff it's knowledge.
See, the walking spellbook thing is fine to me, but if they cost so much to replace, they really should return with all your previously known spells, not just the ones you get for free from levels.Thus the importance of a Witch's Coven. Witches have a VERY good reason to associate with each other - they not only have a chance to learn more spells, but friendly Witches are basically backup spellbooks for each other. Only the highest level Witch in any given coven has anything to worry over lost spell knowledge.
True, but that doesn't help much from a PCs standpoint, no?
True, but that doesn't help much from a PCs standpoint, no?See, the walking spellbook thing is fine to me, but if they cost so much to replace, they really should return with all your previously known spells, not just the ones you get for free from levels.Thus the importance of a Witch's Coven. Witches have a VERY good reason to associate with each other - they not only have a chance to learn more spells, but friendly Witches are basically backup spellbooks for each other. Only the highest level Witch in any given coven has anything to worry over lost spell knowledge.
Another use for Leadership feat.
Witch hit's level 7, take leadership. Have a cohort who's a witch with a different familiar. You can immediately add her patron spells to your familiar, and store all your spells in her familiar and vice versa. Then if something happens to either of your familiars, you have the new familiar learn from the old. You still lose a couple of your higher level spells, but it's not nearly as painful.
I've seen wizards do the same thing with their spell books and cohorts as well.
Another use for Leadership feat.
Witch hit's level 7, take leadership. Have a cohort who's a witch with a different familiar. You can immediately add her patron spells to your familiar, and store all your spells in her familiar and vice versa. Then if something happens to either of your familiars, you have the new familiar learn from the old. You still lose a couple of your higher level spells, but it's not nearly as painful.
I've seen wizards do the same thing with their spell books and cohorts as well.
Patron spells don't carry over. They are not on your spell list unless you have that patron and since they aren't on your list you can't learn them.
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My big question is thy isn't the whole patron thing expounded on at all... as it sits all it is is another way to get different spells, no real benefit like a domain or any real ideals or even flavor to associate with them other than what can be pulled from what each adjective they hold.
I'd have loved to see some kind of material on what role they play with the witch beyond JUST bonus spells.
Patron spells don't carry over. They are not on your spell list unless you have that patron and since they aren't on your list you can't learn them.
Another use for Leadership feat.
Witch hit's level 7, take leadership. Have a cohort who's a witch with a different familiar. You can immediately add her patron spells to your familiar, and store all your spells in her familiar and vice versa. Then if something happens to either of your familiars, you have the new familiar learn from the old. You still lose a couple of your higher level spells, but it's not nearly as painful.
I've seen wizards do the same thing with their spell books and cohorts as well.
Actually,
There is some overlap between patrons. Check the spell lists.EDIT: *sigh* Tired brain. Of course, if it overlaps, you already have the spell. :) I just realized, none of the patron spells are actually on the witch spell list. Learn something new every day.
My big question is thy isn't the whole patron thing expounded on at all... as it sits all it is is another way to get different spells, no real benefit like a domain or any real ideals or even flavor to associate with them other than what can be pulled from what each adjective they hold.
I'd have loved to see some kind of material on what role they play with the witch beyond JUST bonus spells.
I think it is up to the player/DM to fluff that up, just like the 3.5 warlock got his abilities from some strange source.
My big question is thy isn't the whole patron thing expounded on at all... as it sits all it is is another way to get different spells, no real benefit like a domain or any real ideals or even flavor to associate with them other than what can be pulled from what each adjective they hold.
I'd have loved to see some kind of material on what role they play with the witch beyond JUST bonus spells.
It feels like a last minute thing that got put in to divorce the spell lists from the familiars, since there was a lot of pushback over 'But I don't want to have to take a <insert animal here> to get that spell list!'.
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Sorry, but you're wrong. It only takes you time. Not spells. You aren't giving away the spell, you're teaching it to the other familiar.
You misunderstood me. by giving a spell in return I mean: "someone else learns your spell" not "you give it away and lose it."
Familiar-If the familiar is lost the witch loses access to bonus spell list. The DC of the witch’s spells take a -2 penalty, and the witch effectively loses 2 caster levels. This means for the purposes of determining the duration of a spell, spell resistance checks, concentration checks, caster level checks, and making magic items, the penalty applies, but the caster does not lose any spells(except for the ones that come from the bonus spell list), nor does the number of spells that can be cast per day lessen.Sounds nifty. How do they prepare the other spells?All the spells memorized, and selected daily. When the familiar dies the witch only loses access to the ones from the bonus list. I am really liking the idea of a wisdom based witch.
Hexes. The witch does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity for using Supernatural Abilities ever.Did you check out my houserule page I linked above? you might like how I altered your Idea.
I like the wisdom-based idea as well, and I think I'm going to lower the cost to 300g/level instead of 500g/level.
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It feels like a last minute thing that got put in to divorce the spell lists from the familiars, since there was a lot of pushback over 'But I don't want to have to take a <insert animal here> to get that spell list!'.
The Bullmahn is supposedly working on a couple thousand words of exclusive content for the people who joined his facebook page. This is exactly the kind of stuff I would love to see expounded on.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Right now they receive their casting from some mysterious patron whom they don't know. that to me screams wisdom based.As for witches not being intelligence-based, it really depends on what book/movie/whatever the witch is in. Witches who cast via complicated spells are INT - based (eye of newt and all that). Witches who call upon gods or devils would be Wis-Based. Witches who primarily call on spirits would be Cha-based.
Of course, one could say that all three are just flavored versions of the Wizard, Cleric and Summoner.
It's a minor point, but they don't get their casting from their patron.
They learn casting from their patron.
It's not like a cleric or a druid where someone is handing you spells everyday, if you somehow piss off your patron you don't lose spellcasting abilities. There are no ex-witches. Yeah, you lose access to what amounts to your 'notes' if you lose your familiar, but you still know all the spells and can still use scrolls, wands, and the like. Think of it like Correspondence School.
This came up a lot back during the playtest, and honestly, yeah, it's mostly a flavor issue. If you want to swap the Witch to wisdom for your game, more power to you.
I just happen to love the fact that they went with Int for the Witch.
Right now they receive their casting from some mysterious patron whom they don't know. that to me screams wisdom based.As for witches not being intelligence-based, it really depends on what book/movie/whatever the witch is in. Witches who cast via complicated spells are INT - based (eye of newt and all that). Witches who call upon gods or devils would be Wis-Based. Witches who primarily call on spirits would be Cha-based.
Of course, one could say that all three are just flavored versions of the Wizard, Cleric and Summoner.
It's a minor point, but they don't get their casting from their patron.
They learn casting from their patron.
It's not like a cleric or a druid where someone is handing you spells everyday, if you somehow piss off your patron you don't lose spellcasting abilities. There are no ex-witches. Yeah, you lose access to what amounts to your 'notes' if you lose your familiar, but you still know all the spells and can still use scrolls, wands, and the like. Think of it like Correspondence School.
This came up a lot back during the playtest, and honestly, yeah, it's mostly a flavor issue. If you want to swap the Witch to wisdom for your game, more power to you.
I just happen to love the fact that they went with Int for the Witch.
I dont see the flavor being too much different from a warlock or sorcerer who are "rumored" to get their powers from outside sources.
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I dont see the flavor being too much different from a warlock or sorcerer who are "rumored" to get their powers from outside sources.
Right now they receive their casting from some mysterious patron whom they don't know. that to me screams wisdom based.As for witches not being intelligence-based, it really depends on what book/movie/whatever the witch is in. Witches who cast via complicated spells are INT - based (eye of newt and all that). Witches who call upon gods or devils would be Wis-Based. Witches who primarily call on spirits would be Cha-based.
Of course, one could say that all three are just flavored versions of the Wizard, Cleric and Summoner.
It's a minor point, but they don't get their casting from their patron.
They learn casting from their patron.
It's not like a cleric or a druid where someone is handing you spells everyday, if you somehow piss off your patron you don't lose spellcasting abilities. There are no ex-witches. Yeah, you lose access to what amounts to your 'notes' if you lose your familiar, but you still know all the spells and can still use scrolls, wands, and the like. Think of it like Correspondence School.
This came up a lot back during the playtest, and honestly, yeah, it's mostly a flavor issue. If you want to swap the Witch to wisdom for your game, more power to you.
I just happen to love the fact that they went with Int for the Witch.
I've always imagined magic as a giant universal living being that one must negotiate with to gain access to its powers. Sorcerers do so by coaxing it to bend to their will with the force of personality and for divine classes they gain access from their deity granting them the power. For intelligence based classes it works like a studied individual who actually understands the process and uses his knowledge to make this transfer happen.
Mechanically speaking I think the main reason they went with INT is because of the fact that there are no other "true" casters who use the ability other than wizards. For Cha they have sorcerers, bards, pallies and now summoners and oracles. Wisdom has clerics, druids, rangers, and now inquisitors. For them to just dump witches into one of those two piles would be doing even more of a "statistical injustice" to Intelligence. The alchemist is an INT based class but they are hardly a true caster but I won't get into that.
IMO pathfinder in general has been really abusive to the INT stat in general, downplaying its importance at character generation as well as how much affects skill selection.
I dont see the flavor being too much different from a warlock or sorcerer who are "rumored" to get their powers from outside sources.
Right now they receive their casting from some mysterious patron whom they don't know. that to me screams wisdom based.As for witches not being intelligence-based, it really depends on what book/movie/whatever the witch is in. Witches who cast via complicated spells are INT - based (eye of newt and all that). Witches who call upon gods or devils would be Wis-Based. Witches who primarily call on spirits would be Cha-based.
Of course, one could say that all three are just flavored versions of the Wizard, Cleric and Summoner.
It's a minor point, but they don't get their casting from their patron.
They learn casting from their patron.
It's not like a cleric or a druid where someone is handing you spells everyday, if you somehow piss off your patron you don't lose spellcasting abilities. There are no ex-witches. Yeah, you lose access to what amounts to your 'notes' if you lose your familiar, but you still know all the spells and can still use scrolls, wands, and the like. Think of it like Correspondence School.
This came up a lot back during the playtest, and honestly, yeah, it's mostly a flavor issue. If you want to swap the Witch to wisdom for your game, more power to you.
I just happen to love the fact that they went with Int for the Witch.
I've always imagined magic as a giant universal living being that one must negotiate with to gain access to its powers. Sorcerers do so by coaxing it to bend to their will with the force of personality and for divine classes they gain access from their deity granting them the power. For intelligence based classes it works like a studied individual who actually understands the process and uses his knowledge to make this transfer happen.
Mechanically speaking I...
I see your point, but unless the class is at least a 6th level caster like the bard most people don't the class as a caster. They consider it as something else. It is nice to have another int based caster. I just wish it was not the witch. Maybe the swordtheurge(new fighting spellcaster) could use int.
PS: I just made swordtheurge up. It not anything official from Piazo.
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This is why you are paying more money - because you can literally alter the spells you get every time it dies.
I noticed that. Unfortunately, the pricing scheme means that instead of me being able to just swap out my spells, I may be without spells for a few sessions (until I can afford that pricetag). At mid levels its not a huge problem, but at level 1 and 2, I don't have 500 to 1000 gold to spare.
So then I'm a spellcaster, with no access to spells.
I'm going to be changing that for my games, because that would totally suck for anyone playing the witch.
I'll lower the price a bit (300g/lv, because 300g is roughly the cost to replace a 1st level wizard's spellbook and familiar), you can prepare spells from other animals if your familiar is dead/inaccessible (with penalties), and I'll limit how many spells you can switch out in some way or another.
The wizard schools get corporate rates.
It's 500g so if you get unlucky at first level you have to play through the next ten adventures as a commoner who can make people fall asleep before being able to buy a new one.
This is why you are paying more money - because you can literally alter the spells you get every time it dies.I noticed that. Unfortunately, the pricing scheme means that instead of me being able to just swap out my spells, I may be without spells for a few sessions (until I can afford that pricetag). At mid levels its not a huge problem, but at level 1 and 2, I don't have 500 to 1000 gold to spare.
So then I'm a spellcaster, with no access to spells.
I'm going to be changing that for my games, because that would totally suck for anyone playing the witch.
I'll lower the price a bit (300g/lv, because 300g is roughly the cost to replace a 1st level wizard's spellbook and familiar), you can prepare spells from other animals if your familiar is dead/inaccessible (with penalties), and I'll limit how many spells you can switch out in some way or another.
A different thought:
Have them choose and keep their "free" spells seperate from those they get from other sources. IF they lose their familiar they can cast the free spells (and patron spells) but no other spells until they have their familiar back (or get a new one and teach it new spells).
This way they are still extremely limited IF something happens to their familiar but they aren't dead weight.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It's 500g so if you get unlucky at first level you have to play through the next ten adventures as a commoner who can make people fall asleep before being able to buy a new one.
Yeah, but if you get unlucky at first level, you can just as easily get stuck playing the next ten adventures as worm food. :)
I'm seriously considering house ruling the witch to choose an aspect at 1st level, Maiden, Matron, or Hag. Maiden using CHA to cast spells, Matron using WIS, and Hag using INT. Other than affecting skill points (since a WIS/CHA witch would theoretically have less INT), it would be just a flavor thing.
I'm still mulling it over, trying to see if I can find any major issues with it.
As to the familiar costing more than a bonded item... I'm a little troubled by it myself. At least, I was, until I realized. Part of that is that you can add spells to your familiar for free, unlike a Wizard who has to pay for every spell.
Remember, two familiars can teach each other spells without costing gold.
Neat Idea...The witch is one of the classes I haven't really gotten that much into yet.