It is not broken. It's certainly a very useful piece of armor though :)
In any case, your DM is well within his rights not to use the Celestial Armor in his game, whatever his reasons may be.
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Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
Wow - I'm not even sure what this could be referring to! Celestial Armour is a cool item but it's certainly not broken (there's that term again!)
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Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
Considering its price? Uhm no.
I have never seen a player buy it and the one time I had a party get their hands on a set they sold it for market value to get something else.
Its almost 10,000 gp more expensive than another suit of +3 armor, for crazy dex and fly 1/time a day...seems pretty fair to me.
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Wow - I'm not even sure what this could be referring to! Celestial Armour is a cool item but it's certainly not broken (there's that term again!)Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
I know Marc. I'm so sick of seeing the term "Broken". Its like 9/11 all over again with everyone screaming "Terrorist".
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I know Marc. I'm so sick of seeing the term "Broken". Its like 9/11 all over again with everyone screaming "Terrorist".Wow - I'm not even sure what this could be referring to! Celestial Armour is a cool item but it's certainly not broken (there's that term again!)Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
Only terrorists would make light of 9/11! Terrorist!!
Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
Ok, lets break this down
Masterwork mithril chainmail gives you ACP of -2 with a max dex bonus of +4 and counts as light armor - 4300 GP+3 enchantment - 9000
Fly spell(caster level 5), command word activated, multiple different abilities, 1/day - 1800x3x5x1.5/5 = 8100
So Mithril chainmail +3 with fly 1/day costs 21400gp. The only advantage celestial armor has is that is gives you an additional +4 to your max dex bonus.
FYI a Mithril breastplate +3 with fly 1/day would cost 21450, and have a -1 armor check penalty with a +5 max dex bonus.
I really don't see how an additional +4 max dex bonus for 1000 gold makes celestial armor broken.
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I think there is nothing wrong with Celestial Armor. Unless its given to a Level 1 character, I don't see the big deal. I'm imagining the DM freaking out and going bananas over what IMO is a reletively medium magic item.
Here you go Obadiah.. LOL!!!
In my opinion, there is no problem with Celestial armour. I also agree that the DM is able to ban anything he wants, but I wondered how others opinions fitted.
The DM's problem is quite simply the obscene Dex and the fact that it is light armour.
My problem is that without it, the best Dex adjustment in the game is +6, leaving out padded armour.
I now have a +7 Dex adjustment and I want a way to have armour which allows for that Dex adjustment. There is no enchantment [like nimble] that allows for higher Dex adj.
Note: Broken has made its way into my vocab and even thought processes, sorry it isn't something that I am suddenly going to stop using.
Bracers of Armor have no dexterity limit. For 22k, gold you can get +4 bracers of armor with a +2 amulet of natural armor. +6 AC with +7 dex gives you an AC of 23. That is only 3 less than you would have with celestial armor.
Another option would be to get a wand of mage armor(750 gold, +4 Armor, lasts 1 hour) and a wand of shield(750 gold, +4 shield bonus, lasts 1 minute) and use magic device to activate them for +8 AC.
There's some debate over the case of Mithril Studded Leather armors. If your DM okays that with you, those have a max dex of +7. In any case, be sure to note that Max Dex applies only to AC and nothing else whatsoever. You still will have full dex to initiative, attacks with ranged/finesse weapons, skill checks. reflex saves, and CMD.
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So it really boils down to your ( and/or your DM's) question: is Celestial Armor over powered or unbalanced. Your DM feels it is and is banning it. In answer to your question though it would appear that no one else seems to share that opinion.
So now it comes down to what does that do for you? We can all argue/point/counter point all day but honestly there has been more than enough of that on these boards lately and, in this case at least, what's the point? Are we all trying to help you change his mind?
The question now is do you try to convince him to change his mind based on the (in my opinon) correct arguments presented here? Do you accept his ruling and move on? Do you quit his game (I'm kidding here by the way)
It seems pretty clear what the going feeling is here. Let us know what happens with you.
Oh god, one of the unique and flavorful magical armors is actually worth taking instead of just grabbing another generic mithril braestplate.
What shall we do D:
Hope your DM never sees the Celestial Plate in AP #11... ;-)
Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
I've been in a game where a player used it. It didn't even cross my mind that it was in any way broken, until I read this thread. So I say no it isn't broken.
Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
Ok, lets break this down
Masterwork mithril chainmail gives you ACP of -2 with a max dex bonus of +4 and counts as light armor - 4300 GP
+3 enchantment - 9000
Fly spell(caster level 5), command word activated, multiple different abilities, 1/day - 1800x3x5x1.5/5 = 8100So Mithril chainmail +3 with fly 1/day costs 21400gp. The only advantage celestial armor has is that is gives you an additional +4 to your max dex bonus.
FYI a Mithril breastplate +3 with fly 1/day would cost 21450, and have a -1 armor check penalty with a +5 max dex bonus.
I really don't see how an additional +4 max dex bonus for 1000 gold makes celestial armor broken.
You are forgetting the fact that celestial armor can not mechanically be improved at all. Unless the GM allows it, special armors are static. Also note that celestial armor is not a material, but a spell effect.
Celestial Armor does not provide force effect armor - unlike bracers of armor. So incorporeal critters can poke their Strength-slurping claws right through celestial armor just as easily as full plate armor. Bracers of armor have absolutely NO maximum Dexterity, apply against everything but touch attacks, are effectively non-encumbering and impose no check and arcane spell failure penalties.
To the OP: Your GM can calm down. The fly effect is only at 5th level, once a day by command word. It is easily dispelled. The armor itself can be sundered by a +3 (or better) permanent magical weapon. It might take a few swings, but it can be hacked off... and only creating the armor has an alignment component - bad guys can wear it too. ^_^
There is nothing that says either which way that I am aware of that says "special items" cannot be upgraded from their basic statistics.
Celestial Armor does not provide force effect armor - unlike bracers of armor. So incorporeal critters can poke their Strength-slurping claws right through celestial armor just as easily as full plate armor. Bracers of armor have absolutely NO maximum Dexterity, apply against everything but touch attacks, are effectively non-encumbering and impose no check and arcane spell failure penalties.
To the OP: Your GM can calm down. The fly effect is only at 5th level, once a day by command word. It is easily dispelled. The armor itself can be sundered by a +3 (or better) permanent magical weapon. It might take a few swings, but it can be hacked off... and only creating the armor has an alignment component - bad guys can wear it too. ^_^
There is nothing that says either which way that I am aware of that says "special items" cannot be upgraded from their basic statistics.
Are you stalking me? Yes, very true points.
No its extremely overpowering it's just taken10 years to realize it
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Anything a 5th level caster can shut off on an 11 or better with a targeted dispel magic hardly falls under "overpowering".
Starfury wrote:
"Hope your DM never sees the Celestial Plate in AP #11... ;-)"
Wait! there was a Celestial Plate?! I must know these stats!!
smurf
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No sir, you must be mad. This is horribly, horribly overpowered. That DM just GETS it.No its extremely overpowering it's just taken10 years to realize it
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Anything a 5th level caster can shut off on an 11 or better with a targeted dispel magic hardly falls under "overpowering".
See, that kind of snark for snark's sake results in people not taking your OMG SUMMONERS WERE DESTROYED FFS posts seriously. :)
Wait! there was a Celestial Plate?! I must know these stats!!
Celestial Plate is +3 full plate armor, with +6 max dex bonus, -3 ACP, 20% ASF, and fly 1/day. Counts as medium armor. Probably intended as a unique item.
Positively smurfalicious! ;-)
One of my players wants to get her character a suit of Celestial Full Plate.
Needless to say, she has to acquire some "starmetal" as the primary raw material.
^_^ Which means higher-level fun for my bad guys!
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See, that kind of snark for snark's sake results in people not taking your OMG SUMMONERS WERE DESTROYED FFS posts seriously. :)No sir, you must be mad. This is horribly, horribly overpowered. That DM just GETS it.No its extremely overpowering it's just taken10 years to realize it
7
Anything a 5th level caster can shut off on an 11 or better with a targeted dispel magic hardly falls under "overpowering".
Yes, joking around in one thread negates any legitimate points I make in another one. Sebastian is fuuuucked :D
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I know Marc. I'm so sick of seeing the term "Broken". Its like 9/11 all over again with everyone screaming "Terrorist".Wow - I'm not even sure what this could be referring to! Celestial Armour is a cool item but it's certainly not broken (there's that term again!)Hello All,
I was looking at Celestial Armour.
I have never bought this for a character before, but my DM had a fit and banned it.
Does everyone else think that Celestial Armour is broken???
+1
Celestial armor isn't broken at all. But it can get out of hand with high stats. But then high stats cause other problems too so I think celestial armor would be the least of your problems.
Just thinking if the DM thinks Celestial Armor is too powerful then there are options. First don't make it available in magic shops would be one, don't make allowed to be created with magic creation feats. Then make it a special armor that needs to be quested for. Another option is just increase the price of it. If 22,400 GP seem too low for your game then increase it by 5000 or 10000 GP. I wouldn't out right ban it the armor though.
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I also want to point out that I think it would only be fair that the GM in this situation is fair about what choices he/she (or the group) made in campaign creation that might lead to concern:
If characters were allowed high stats meaning this +7 Dex Mod was achieved as cheaply as I can think of under the normal rules:
18 at campaign start
+2 from racial mod
+2 from stat bumps at 4 and 8
+2 Dex boost magic item (4k)
= Dex of 24 or +7 mod.
If the guidelines of the Core book are being followed then an average 10th level PC has 62k in gp worth of stuff.
4k (Dex mod magic) + 22.4k (Celestial Armor)= 26.4k
At the point that a character is spending over 40% of their wealth to be hard to hit it seems pretty balanced to me.
The mechanics of the game are balanced against themselves as stated in the book. I am all for higher stats, more gold, and tweaking the system but that leads to situations where a level 10 dex based character could get a great AC; that isn't the game being "broken" (ie operating counter to its intended function) that is the consequence of fiddling or flexing the system. I am not saying that is good or bad, just *is*.
What are the other situations around the character and campaign that might make the celestial armor more problematic? Was there a choice at campaign start that makes the armor -seem- unfair in that greater context?
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Thanks.
I don't tend to try and convince DMs of things, but asking here and finding no-one who says they agree with him means I will direct his attention to this thread and leave it at that.
I don't think it is unbalanced, but I would like an explaination of how they came to certain things (like the +8 dex adj)
I doubt you'll ever get that. The armor is almost a verbatim holdover from 3.5 (and 3.0 if I remember correctly) so unless you can track down the original design team heads or one of the Paizoites happen to be one of the design team for that specific item I think you are dealing more with "because it is always been that way" more than anything else as far as PF is concerned.
I also want to add that most design comments I have seen regarding specific items like "Celestial Armor" or "Banded Plate Mail of Luck" is usually inferred to be ahead of the curve of comparable items (not by a lot) and usually has an RP element above walking into a store and grabbing it off the rack. It would be more like finding it somewhere and realizing you found Glamdring or some such thing.
What I am trying to say is that not all prices are mechanical or numerical in nature.
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I guess my only comment on this would be, every Paladin everywhere should want a Holy Avenger. Should THEY be illegal? Also, some rogues are going to prefer items from the Shadow Armor family, regardless of Celestial being available or not.
I don't think Celestial Armor is unbalanced - sure, it represents the high side of the desirability curve, but hey, it's a CURVE - but I do think it might be slightly underpriced. At any rate, +1 to the many posters who agreed with not being able to buy it off the rack. I'd only award this as a quest item or Dragon/comparable loot.
Sleep-Walker wrote:
"Thanks.
I don't tend to try and convince DMs of things, but asking here and finding no-one who says they agree with him means I will direct his attention to this thread and leave it at that.
I don't think it is unbalanced, but I would like an explaination of how they came to certain things (like the +8 dex adj)"
Actually James Jacobs commented on this exact topic in a previous thread... I couldn't find the link ... sorry. However, I beleive his response was something akin to this was both a nostalgic hold-over from previous times and it was supposed to be a special and unique item with flavor and story of its own... note to the Amazing Mr. Jacobs if I have mis remembered your words I apologize.
Starfury wrote:
"Celestial Plate is +3 full plate armor, with +6 max dex bonus, -3 ACP, 20% ASF, and fly 1/day. Counts as medium armor. Probably intended as a unique item.
Positively smurfalicious! ;-)"
Thanks I can't wait to use this and watch my players go WTF! :-)
IO am sorry, but I simply cannot buy the DM's arguement that high AC == OP.
If the player has a +7 dex bonus, then odds are either.
A. The other starts are not that great.
B. The player has OP stats across the board.
If A is the case, then you have a character that can be generally ignored in combat because their damage output is low.
If B is the case, then the stat rolling method is the problem no the celestial armor.
High AC characters can be frustrating for some DM, but unless they are also putting out lots of damage, then they are hardly OP.