Improvised Weapons - HELP!


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

I am preparing to DM for a group in two weeks that will feature a barbarian who will make frequent use of Improvised Weapons. I know that in order to determine weapon damage, you must compare the improvised weapon to an existing weapon, but I am unsure what to use for parallels to some of the "weapons" the barbarian will be using (he's a very big, very angry, very evil orc).

First and foremost, a human(oid) corpse. He'll be making a lot of these, and the player in question is gleefully eager to begin using downed enemies as melee and throwing weapons. I was thinking the comparison would be a flail (heavy flail for heavily armored opponents). Both are flexible but relatively hard, and can be held by one end and swung around, flail-like.

The issue of size categories conuses me, though. For example, if a corpse = a flail when used as an improvised weapon, would a Large corpse = a large flail? Or some other, more damaging weapon entirely? Would improvized weapons have different size categories?

Would a small tree = a Large greatclub, while a ship's mast = a Huge greatclub? How do weapon sizes and improvised weapons interact?

Thanks in advance!


I play a half giant in a darksun game. I roll damage for thrown enemies as fall damage + str mod. I use a tree for a great club. I would probably consider bodies used as melee to be great club or club damage. My half giant is 11.5 ft tall though.

Hope this helps.


Garden Tool wrote:
First and foremost, a human(oid) corpse. He'll be making a lot of these, and the player in question is gleefully eager to begin using downed enemies as melee and throwing weapons. I was thinking the comparison would be a flail (heavy flail for heavily armored opponents). Both are flexible but relatively hard, and can be held by one end and swung around, flail-like.

You're kidding, right?

A guy roughly the size of a human swinging around another (dead) guy roughly the size of a human, and this is supposed to be flail-like.

That dead guy probably weighs something like 20x the weight of the flail. This means that IF somebody could swing the dead guy like a flail, the actual impact would be immensely more than a flail. Think about a football player (American football) making a tackle. Pick one of those smaller guys like a corner back or a free safety (well, they're smaller than the linemen, anyway). Now think about one of those guys running at full speed, diving and flying head-first into a wide receiver. They knock that guy a good 10' (2 squares in Pathfinder terms) and usually flat on his backside. That's a whole lot more impact than a flail.

However, (see my link at the bottom of this post), nobody could swing a man-sized corpse like a flail.

Garden Tool wrote:
The issue of size categories conuses me, though. For example, if a corpse = a flail when used as an improvised weapon,

It doesn't.

Garden Tool wrote:
would a Large corpse = a large flail? ,

No.

Garden Tool wrote:
Or some other, more damaging weapon entirely? Would improvized weapons have different size categories?,

No.

Garden Tool wrote:

Would a small tree = a Large greatclub, ,

No - a large greatclub would probably only be about 10' long. A tree that is only 10' tall has a trunk not much bigger in diameter than a quarterstaff (I have several such trees in my yard right now).

More likely, you would fashion a greatclub (or a large greatclub) by breaking off a branch of a much bigger tree (or maybe even the trunk if you're so inclined). Something with a general diameter of a human head (at least for the large greatclub). But that's going to be a 40' tall tree (way too long), so then you break (or cut) the thing down to a manageable 10' lenth.

Garden Tool wrote:
while a ship's mast = a Huge greatclub? ,

Nope, too big. Even for a colossal greatclub. Heck, a huge greatclub would probably be about 15' long. Comparatively, a 19th century Clipper ship would have a mainmast about 100' tall.

Garden Tool wrote:
How do weapon sizes and improvised weapons interact?

I posted some ramblings on this very subject here in this thread.


A corpse isn't like a flail, it's far too large and far too heavy as DM_Blake pointed out. I'd say it's a two-handed weapon that imposes an additional -2 unless the wearer has at least 20 strength and that deals 1d10 nonlethal damage (it's soft). It's a possible weapon, but probably not a good one.
On throwing it, a 5ft range increment, 1d6 non-lethal damage, and allows ranged trip attempts.

DM_Blake wrote:


However, (see my link at the bottom of this post), nobody could swing a man-sized corpse like a flail.

And nobody can create water out of thin air or throw fireballs or fly. That's why we play a fantasy game - to do crazy stuff that isn't possible IRL.

Dark Archive

Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking of a Medium-sized flail - though my post did not reflect that. My apologies.

Seems like "club" or "greatclub" is the consensus for a humanoid-corpse-as-a-weapon. Would a Huge greatclub be a good parallel for an improvised weapon?

Also, what about: a dinner table? A covered wagon? (thanks a set of muleback cords and an ant haul from a friendly PC alchemist, this barbarian will have a huge carrying capacity).


You know, when we start reaching things the size of a covered wagon, I think it calls for some other rules than normal attacks. Maybe see it as an area attack that allows reflex save for half damage.

Dark Archive

I always thought that a petrified gnome makes a great weapon for the ogre to use against a party. They have the awful feeling that if they managed to disarm the giant, they might still be able to rescue the gnome with a "stone to flesh" spell. Especially if the gnome is someone they know.


Garden Tool wrote:

Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking of a Medium-sized flail - though my post did not reflect that. My apologies.

Seems like "club" or "greatclub" is the consensus for a humanoid-corpse-as-a-weapon. Would a Huge greatclub be a good parallel for an improvised weapon?

Also, what about: a dinner table? A covered wagon? (thanks a set of muleback cords and an ant haul from a friendly PC alchemist, this barbarian will have a huge carrying capacity).

Remember that carrying capacity and swing-like-a-weapon capacity are very different.

Even without special items to modify carrying capacity, a strong Pathfinder fighter can carry a lot. A whole lot. But the biggest weapon he can swing, by the Core rules, is 16 pounds.

Even a gnome mage with STR as a dump stat can carry 16 pounds. But the strongest medium-sized human in the world of Golarion is prohibited, by the RAW, from swinging a weapon larger than 16 pounds - regardless of how much carrying capacity he has.

So increasing his carrying capacity doesn't increase the weight limit of what can be used as a weapon.

Sure, you could houserule that limit into non-existence. But then this thread would be more practical if we move it from the "Rules Questions" forum to the "Houserules" forum.

As a houserule, I would say a dinner table (not counting the legs) is roughly the shape of a shield, and close to 2x larger than a heavy shield (but not likely 4x larger unless we're talking about a banquet table). So consider it a shield bash with an improvised weapon and assign the damage to be identical to a shield bash but increase the die type because it's one size category larger. He would also need to swing it with two hands so give him the x1.5 STR damage modifier.

A cart is 2x as big as the table (not counting the wheels) and a wagon is 2x as big as that (not counting wheels and buckboard). So the same applies, increasing size once or twice from the table damage. Of course, we're way above the 16 pound limit, but I'm assuming you're housruling that out.


Happler wrote:
I always thought that a petrified gnome makes a great weapon for the ogre to use against a party. They have the awful feeling that if they managed to disarm the giant, they might still be able to rescue the gnome with a "stone to flesh" spell. Especially if the gnome is someone they know.

Hah, I had a group use a petrified ogre as a weapon against the beholder who petrified him.

The beholder had made a lair for himself including several vertical shafts (disintegration beams are great for tunneling). It rose out of a 100' shaft right in front of the group (about 510 away) and zapped our ogre PC with Flesh to Stone. The ogre failed the save and became a statue. Then the beholder retreated back down the shaft. The group's other fighter shoved the ogre-statue into the shaft, which fell on the beholder and flattened it.

Also broke the statue, so it was much harder to restore the poor guy. We needed a Stone-to-Flesh and a Resurrection, and even then, some of his gear had been broken in the fall and was gone forever.


DM_Blake wrote:


Even without special items to modify carrying capacity, a strong Pathfinder fighter can carry a lot. A whole lot. But the biggest weapon he can swing, by the Core rules, is 16 pounds.

Not necessarily. The biggest thing that is manufactured for the specific purpose of being a weapon weighs 16 pounds. The game allows improvised weapons, but doesn't really put any rules as to what can be used as an improvised weapon. That is left to the DM.

EDIT: If one were to adhere strictly to the letter of the law, a huge greatclub weighs 8 lbs. That's of course absurd, but just noticed that.

Dark Archive

human corpse used as a weapon should be a 2d6 2 handed weapon at most. maybe a d10.

improvised weapons arent all that good, and a corpse is a bad weapon.

now limbs could be used similar to flails, legs too, but a whole body is awkward just because it flops around


Name Violation wrote:

human corpse used as a weapon should be a 2d6 2 handed weapon at most. maybe a d10.

improvised weapons arent all that good, and a corpse is a bad weapon.

now limbs could be used similar to flails, legs too, but a whole body is awkward just because it flops around

I'd also advocate for a human body to be non-lethal damage. It would seem weird that the attacks with my fist are non-lethal, but if I cut of my hand, hold it in my hand, and hit someone with it - it's lethal. The body is soft, much softer than even a blackjack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Garden Tool wrote:


Would a small tree = a Large greatclub, while a ship's mast = a Huge greatclub? How do weapon sizes and improvised weapons interact?

Thanks in advance!

As a general rule I consider a 1-handed weapon one size category smaller than the size its designed to be wielded by. A medium dagger being tiny. Medium Longsword being small. Medium greatsword being medium.

As for a human body. I'd consider it a item size huge (a 3 size step increase) whip. The human body is just far to flimsy to be anything else. Dealing 2d6 damage non lethal with a -6 to hit for a medium creature.

That would require a large creature two hands to wield and not be wieldable as a weapon for a medium sized creature. For a medium sized creature to wield with 2 hands I'd apply another -4 penalty to hit.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Improvised Weapons - HELP! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.