You just be sure to bring this up at EVERY meeting about the book.
Pulling for the cavalier archtype here. Be nice to have a samurai with a more historical root for once.
Pulling for the cavalier archetype here. Be nice to have a samurai with a more historical root for once.
I agree with mdt in regards to historicity of classes in role playing games. The genre is by its very definition fantastic and not based in reality. I don't see any reason for the classes to be limited by history anymore than any of the other classes. I am fine with the ninja and samurai getting sub-class write ups giving them Ki or other mystical abilities. In fact I think this covers more fans. Those that maintain that samurai can be made using a cavalier are free to do so, while those that wish for something a little more out of myth and modern fiction can use the sub-class version. I really have no intention of playing either class, since neither is really my cup of tea, but I don't see why there cannot be multiple options. Players want to be able to realize whatever character concepts their imagination produces, and not be, unduly, constrained by rules or the opinions of others. Giving players the tools to build a wider variety of character concepts is just a good way of appealing to a larger player base, which is just good business from a publishers stand point. More choices means more player concepts covered, means more satisfied players. Just my $0.02.
I feel the opposite is true, Al. The baseline ought to be close to what the Archetype OS named after. To do otherwise would not only be confusing but borderline deceptive. If you want to build a more mystical version of a Ninja or Samurai, it should be a separate set of choices or just plain called something different.
Pulling for the cavalier archtype here. Be nice to have a samurai with a more historical root for once.
+1
Getting back to the rest of Ultimate Combat...
It would be nice to see some love for the swashbuckly-types - maybe some feats/systems that replicate binding, parry, riposte, stop-thrust...
If only there were an open-source 3.5 product to base this on.
+1. This is critical, IMO, far more so than the Magus in Ultimate Magic. While I like the archetypes in the APG, I don't feel the fighter or rogue archetypes presented really made the lightly-armored warrior viable. I haven't had a chance to use any of those builds in play, yet, however.
Essentially, I'm looking for an option with a full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, but trading armor proficiencies for skill points.
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See, and that's a pet peeve of mine Hida_jiremi. People who say they want accuracy in their D&D/PF... rant rant rant
Did you read his post? Read it again, please.
He was not making an argument about historical accuracy, rather he was suggesting that the American romanticising of 'alien' Japanese culture was not a way of thinking that should influence PFRPG design.
Jeremy clearly stated: "Are samurai cool? Yes, but that coolness has nothing to do with their statistical build (which is that of a horse-riding archer with skill in polearms and swords, and a higher level of literacy than average), and everything to do with the ephemera of their cultural construct."
and
"You don't need new base classes, you just need to look at existing classes with new eyes."
That is not a call for historical accuracy. It is a call for balance (not necessarily in the technical game design sense, but just balance generally). A call for everyone interested and involved to remember that samurai and ninja are not special cases.
For my own part; I don't know much about Japanese culture, historical or modern, and I don't think the idea of 'Japan' as a culture and history is usually disseminated in the UK in the same way that it is in the US.
However, most rpg suggestions I encounter that build from Japanese or Japanese-influenced cultures seem to be overwhelmingly powerful.
An example, perhaps a clumsy one, would be that after about two episodes of Bleach the hero is ready to smack the snot out of Boromir - even though Boromir has been a war-hero for years and Ichigo is a schoolboy who still can't figure out how to hold his sword properly.
Although I occasionally entertain this fear I have enough trust in Paizo at this point to step back and let them run with it.
On the subject of samurai and ninja class/archetypes, I favor the archetype approach; however, I think there should be multiple samurai and ninja archetypes. This will allow for a variety of different builds. After all, a Samurai Yojimbo and a Kuge Samurai are going to have a different focus even though they are both samurai (one is a bodyguard, while the other is a noble). I am not saying that they should both come from the same class, either. For example, the Yojimbo could be the Fighter archetype for the samurai, while the Kuge could be the Cavalier version of the Samurai. The same approach could be used for the ninja or other Asian archetypes.
Also, I want more than Japanese influence when it comes to the Asian material. In fact, I think most of the Asian influence should be Chinese and Indian with other influences coming from Korea, Mongolia, Tibet, Thailand, and other SE Asian countries. Just because I specifically called out samurai and ninja doesn't mean that that is what I mostly want. I would be much happier with Tao Shih, Fang Shih, Kshatriya, Charan, Devadasi, Yamabushi, Geisha, Kabuki, Hwarang, and other archetypes because they haven't really been done much before in d20 RPGs, if at all outside of things I have written about them (to my knowledge).
+1. This is critical, IMO, far more so than the Magus in Ultimate Magic. While I like the archetypes in the APG, I don't feel the fighter or rogue archetypes presented really made the lightly-armored warrior viable. I haven't had a chance to use any of those builds in play, yet, however.Essentially, I'm looking for an option with a full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, but trading armor proficiencies for skill points.
I'll speak to this- Inmy current game, I have a party of 7th level PCs, A Swashy Rog, a Swashy Fighter, a Giant Alchemist (homebrew, but based off Monte Cooks) and a cleric. Both swashy's are super nimble, lightly armored, and Dex -to-hit based. Rogue is TWF with Short swords, Fighter is One handed fighter with rapier and Imp Disarm. Both picked up Combat Expertise, and use it constantly. The current story arc involves a lot of close in fights with minotaurs, so they tumble like crack weasels. The rogue out damages the fighter by about 1/3 when he hits, but the fighter has more staying power, and hits more often. They are a flanking team par excellence, and carve through foes like butter. On board ships, they swing from ropes (I have a house rule that if you are on a boat, you can always find a rope :)), dive over board, tumble an jive. It's fun watching them play.
All that to say that the archetype is well supported, IF you can get players who are willing to trade full attacks for doing something interesting. Hell, half the night last night the Giant Alchemist was using a bronze cauldron as an anti-mobility device. It was pretty fun :)
Balance-wise, you aren't going to get a lot of skill points out of not getting medium or heavy armor. Not 1 per level and certainly not 2.
I'm definitely from the camp that would like to see more love for the finesse/swashbuckling type of fighter in either feats of abilities. The TWF has had love, the two-handed fighter has had it, the tank has his abilities ... let's have some for the fencer!
Personally what I expect from this book, besides a bunch of feats and prestige classes, etc. are combat maneuvers. tons of them. Let's expand the combat options for all characters!
yes and no. I think there needs to be some wiggle room left undefined, to allow for creative play, but some more applications of current maneuvers (Imp Grap-> Throw for example) could be fleshed out.
Personally what I expect from this book, besides a bunch of feats and prestige classes, etc. are combat maneuvers. tons of them. Let's expand the combat options for all characters!yes and no. I think there needs to be some wiggle room left undefined, to allow for creative play, but some more applications of current maneuvers (Imp Grap-> Throw for example) could be fleshed out.
Yeah. I think the words "maneuver" and "stance" went largely un-uttered at the seminar for a very good reason.
Combat combo manuvers would be very welcome. One good extension would expand into those odd place where skills and combat manuvers combine.
Two I think of, actually 3.
1) Climb the Giant. Talk about our classic fantasy move that has never gotten good treatment in any official writeup that I know of. CM + Climb.
2) Combined with the above, Unwelcome Rider. For when PCs end up hanging form some bigger flying creature or even ground based one.
3) Combat Toss, to pass a companion a handheld item in the middle of a fight or in other situations.
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who's thought of making an Oracle of Battle with the Blindess curse, giving him an exotic weapon proficiency of Bastard Sword, Profession (massuese) and calling him Zatochi?
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Combat combo manuvers would be very welcome. One good extension would expand into those odd place where skills and combat manuvers combine.
Two I think of, actually 3.
1) Climb the Giant. Talk about our classic fantasy move that has never gotten good treatment in any official writeup that I know of. CM + Climb.
2) Combined with the above, Unwelcome Rider. For when PCs end up hanging form some bigger flying creature or even ground based one.
3) Combat Toss, to pass a companion a handheld item in the middle of a fight or in other situations.
Good examples :)
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IF the Pathfinder samurai and ninja turns out to be an archetype based off the cavalier...er...fighter and rogue, this opens an opportunity for a 3PP to offer a product with full classes as an alternate source ^_^I thought you were not in favor of more base classes
Personally, no. But I know a) there are folks out there who do and b) I support 3PPs, too ^_^
Damn it!!
Just when I was just getting used to the idea of another $80 used on Paizo products (The Bestiary 2 and Ultimate Magic) they go ahead and do this..!
Sigh, there goes $120 now...
Think of the game designers, man! For the price of a daily cup of coffee you can keep them working 80 hour weeks to produce content for the best damn RPG out there. ;)
Think of the game designers, man! For the price of a daily cup of coffee you can keep them working 80 hour weeks to produce content for the best damn RPG out there. ;)Damn it!!
Just when I was just getting used to the idea of another $80 used on Paizo products (The Bestiary 2 and Ultimate Magic) they go ahead and do this..!
Sigh, there goes $120 now...
Is Sally Struthers doing anything Paizo could use her in their new advertising campaign.:)
I'll speak to this- Inmy current game, I have a party of 7th level PCs, A Swashy Rog, a Swashy Fighter, a Giant Alchemist (homebrew, but based off Monte Cooks) and a cleric. Both swashy's are super nimble, lightly armored, and Dex -to-hit based. Rogue is TWF with Short swords, Fighter is One handed fighter with rapier and Imp Disarm. Both picked up Combat Expertise, and use it constantly. The current story arc involves a lot of close in fights with minotaurs, so they tumble like crack weasels. The rogue out damages the fighter by about 1/3 when he hits, but the fighter has more staying power, and hits more often. They are a flanking team par excellence, and carve through foes like butter. On board ships, they swing from ropes (I have a house rule that if you are on a boat, you can always find a rope :)), dive over board, tumble an jive. It's fun watching them play.All that to say that the archetype is well supported, IF you can get players who are willing to trade full attacks for doing something interesting. Hell, half the night last night the Giant Alchemist was using a bronze cauldron as an anti-mobility device. It was pretty fun :)
Hmm. Seems I need to look at builds using the core rules and new APG archetypes more closely. Guess I've allowed too much Internet influenced "build this way or you're not viable" to creep into my mindset.
Thanks for the food for thought. I still think there's a place for a PF-style take on Arcana Evolved's Unfettered type of character, but I'll gladly take viable builds using RAW.
Is Sally Struthers doing anything Paizo could use her in their new advertising campaign.:)Think of the game designers, man! For the price of a daily cup of coffee you can keep them working 80 hour weeks to produce content for the best damn RPG out there. ;)Damn it!!
Just when I was just getting used to the idea of another $80 used on Paizo products (The Bestiary 2 and Ultimate Magic) they go ahead and do this..!
Sigh, there goes $120 now...
Your support can make all the difference on the world to a game designer like l"little" Jason here. Please call and have your credit card ready. You won't regret it.
That is, until your wife finds the receipt.
I still think there's a place for a PF-style take on Arcana Evolved's Unfettered type of character, but I'll gladly take viable builds using RAW.
Ooh, I forgot about Unfettered, I'll have to take another look at AE. Such a great game to steal ideas from :)
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who's thought of making an Oracle of Battle with the Blindess curse, giving him an exotic weapon proficiency of Bastard Sword, Profession (massuese) and calling him Zatochi?
Only if he is a pig....
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Well there goees another $40.Was there any doubt it would go?Not ever.
Although I like explaining to my girlfriend that i have basically spent $120 on things that as far as i know don't have a physical form yet. Actually my girlfriend is very supportive of my Paizo addiction, technically she's the one that got me hooked (got me the Core Rulebook).
I explain it to my better half thusly:
Is it not better to spend $200ish on books, which will grant me hours of enjoyment, keep in the house once a week for at least 4-6 hours, and makes me happy, than to let me go out with the guys to the bar, blow the same amount of money buying rounds and eating chicken wings which the only way she can share in is when I come home with a bad case of the beer farts, and in essence poisoning my body, ogling strange women, bragging to my friends about our sex life, and making a general ass out of myself?
Never again have I had to beg money to buy the next book.
Personally, I'd love to see some Middle-eastern/Persian love along with some fencing fun. Throw me a dervish archetype or two to go along with my swashbuckler and my musketeer. Maybe a Hashshashin Arch for the rogue, too.
Also, another interesting combat maneuver idea: Parry. A combat maneuver you can use as an immediate action, maybe? Not sure how AoOs would work, but it's definitely an idea.
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Personally, I'd love to see some Middle-eastern/Persian love along with some fencing fun. Throw me a dervish archetype or two to go along with my swashbuckler and my musketeer. Maybe a Hashshashin Arch for the rogue, too.
Also, another interesting combat maneuver idea: Parry. A combat maneuver you can use as an immediate action, maybe? Not sure how AoOs would work, but it's definitely an idea.
Yes.
Also, as Ultimate Magic will have an alternate magic system, how about an alternate system for things such as AC an HPs too?
Not necessarily tied to already seen concepts such as armor as DR or wounds and vitality, but something brand new, Paizo-style, that encompasses parry, dodge, soaking up damage, and a slew of other factors currently integrated in catch it all values (AC and HPs)?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I was talking to a friend last night and he pointed out a great area for UC to expand into. Additional abilities (feats, archtypes, or whatever) that would allow a non high base attack bonus character (rogue, bard, cleric, whatever) to become good enough at a combat maneuver to have a good chance vs. a fighter type. Even with the current Improved/Greater feats, by mid levels, they aren't enough to let a rogue for instance disarm a fighter.
I'd love it if there were more equipment tricks (introduced in the Adventurer's Armory) in Ultimate Combat.
I'd love it if there were more equipment tricks (introduced in the Adventurer's Armory) in Ultimate Combat.
+1
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I found this quote online a while back. While I don't believe the fine folks at Paizo would go down this road I still feel it's relevant.
==
"What they say: Contains rules for martial arts!
What they mean: Contains rules for Eastern martial arts that are magically somehow superior. We did no research whatsoever and assume that Europeans, whose entire economy was based on warfare for centuries, did not ever actually develop fighting styles of any kind."
==
I'm a firm supporter of the archetype camp. I think some people that clamor for new base classes do not have a proper appreciation for what an archetype is. The classes and abilities available to us really and truly let us realize the very vast majority of character concepts. Now. Already.
We do not *need* mechanical fluff to have a ninja or a samurai. Or a psionic. These can be realised already in the existing framework of classes/archetypes/feats. What is *nice* is to have some archetypes/options available that make certain concepts easier. But then again, I don't like being spoonfed either.
We do not *need* a whole new base class that essentially is a variation of existing classes. And by the gods we do not need a base class that is somehow different from all other classes just to justify the existence of the class in the first place.
For example, have a look at the shuriken (yes, the one in the core rules) - if you don't think that is an awesome weapon as written there, then a ninja base class is not going to change that for you.
I wonder what if anything will be playested here
I want a feat or feat tree or an archetype which allows me to combine the vital strike tree with the charge tree and the spring attack tree and shot on the run tree. What I want is a truely mobile warrior who can sting and move. Give me a more tactical combat system with a better option than move into range and full attack until one of you drops.
Thanks,
Doug
There will for sure be a playtest for this book.
What it will cover has yet to be determined, but we will do it.
i imagine the mass combat system might be one
Here I a suggestion to non-magic enhancements
Acid wash (+4 save vs acid, rust, disintegration)
Alchemical chamber (Add Alchemical flask to dam)
Armor razors (Deals 1d6 Slashing)
Armor spikes (Deals 1d6 Piercing)
Barbed (2 pts Dam 1d4 rnds addition hit extend duration)
Bashing (Bash deal dam as if two sizes larger (1d3=1d6 and 1d4=1d8)
Basket hilt (+4 vs Disarm, +1 AC with Combat Expertise)
Bayonet (Deals 1d6 x2 Ranged -8 to hit and 1/2 incerment)
Bladeshatter (When any non axe, hammer or mace fails a attack roll by 10 or more the weapon tke 1d8 dam by passes hardness)
Blood groove (Casues 1 bleed dam every round)
Bow stablizers (+1 To hit)
Bowstring silencer (Make bow totally silent but reducing its range increment by 10ft/2in)
Buoyancy (-1 Check pen when swimming)
Camouflage (+4 to Stealth)
Caster armor (-5% Spell fail)
Crossbow shield (A small shield is attached to the crossbow +1 AC)
Crossbow/Musket scope (Reduce range penality by 1)
Deceptive (+4 Sleight of hand)
Dwarven forged armor (+2 AC -1 Check pen +10% spell fail)
Dwarvencraft weapon (Increase dam by 1 level +2 Hardness, saves, +10 HP )
Elven craft bow (Functions like a club when use as a melee weapon)
Elven forged armor (+1 Max dex -1 Check pen -10% spell fail)
Embossed (+2 to Gather info if stolen)
Enhanced bracing (+2 Dam set againt a charge)
Extended chain (+4 to Trip flails,chain, and whips and +5ft/1in to spiked chain and whips)
Extended Haft (+5ft/1in Reach)
Fast-Donning/Quick release Straps (No increased check penalty, -1 AC, Standard action to remove armor)
Fire retardant I (Fire resistance 5)
Fire retardant II (Fire resistance 10)
Folded weapon (+4 to Hardness)
Forestwarden Shroud (Negating the effect that undergrowth has on the wearer's Acrobatics and Stealth)
Grounded (Electical restance 5)
Heavy (+2 HP +1 Dam -2 to hit)
Heavy pommel (+2 to Parry)
Interlocking Plate (+2 to AC when moving no more the 5ft/1in)
Iron Sight crossbow/musket (+1 To hit)
Light (+2 To hit -1 Dam -1 HP/Hardness)
Lightweight (Lower category of armor type by 1, +5ft/1in movement, and reduce AC, check pen by 1)
Lined (Cold resistance 5)
Mercurial (+1 Dam)
Muffling (+4 to Stealth -2 to other dex skills)
Ornate/Savage (+1 to +5 either /or Diplomacy, Intimidate)
Penetrating (+4 to Sunder)
Percise fitting (-1 to check pen +1 max dex +1 Bluff and Diplomacy)
Perfect balance (+1 AC when taking total defence)
Perfect weighted (+5ft/1in thrown range incerment)
Pistol (Add a pistol to the weapon 2d4 x3 Range 5ft/1in)
Quick quiver (+1 to Initive when using a bow)
Razor sharp/Honed (+1 to critacal threat range)
Reinforced (25% chance of negating any precision damage)
Resilient (+5 HP)
Riding Straps (+1 to Ride)
Rifiled Barrel (+1 To hit +10ft/2in range incerment)
Rusted (-1 Dam, -1 HP, -2 Hardness, -2 save vs rust plus rust disease)
Segmented (+1 Max dex)
Serrated (2 pts Dam 1d4 rnds addition hit extend duration)
Shield blade/axe (Deals +1d4 slashing dam )
Shield sheath (Holds one light weapon drawing the weapon in the shield sheath is a free action and Free feint attempt)
Shield spikes (Deals +1d4 piercing dam)
Spidersilk (Make armor usable by monks, rouge, and ninjas)
Spring-loaded dagger (1d4/19-20x2 can launch Range 5ft/1in +5 to Sleight of hand)
Stability (+4 vs Bull rush +10% spell fail -1 max dex)
Teather (+4 vs disarm and if disarmed you do not drop weapon)
Tempered armor I (DR 1/-)
Tempered armor II (DR 2/-)
Tempered armor III (DR 3/-)
Tempered armor IV (DR 4/-)
Tempered armor V (DR 5/-)
Thin blade (+2 to diarm and bluff -2 dam)
Thunderhead (Add a blackpower charge to weapon +2d4 Dam)
Weapon pair (Reduce two weapon penality by 1 a matched pair of a normal and light weapon)
Vital coverage I (+2 AC vs crit effects)
Vital coverage II (+4 AC vs crit effects)